[FairfieldLife] Re: You Can't Fix Stupid (Was: Britain has best Health system - America has worst)
Seek, A simple question: How do you so easily condemn others for their lack of honoring priorities when it's given that no one is taught anything about the following in school: how to be a parent, how to recognize a priority, how to control or divert emotional dynamics, how to see the predator in paid advertising, how to see the hidden price of things, how to do a budget, how to see the steps to fulfilling a big dream, how to deconstruct a fast food menu, how to put condom on, how to insist on a condom being put on, how to see addictions of every ilk handcuffing one's life, how to be honor the sacred assumptions of any relationship, how to honor a truthful vow spoken when walking the walk gets hard, how to keep one's self esteem when the entire world's best of the best is handing in their resumes right next to you to the same prospective employer, how to find meaning and depth in ordinary life, how to floss, how to interview a person to get to their core axioms, how to trust intuition, how to sue in small claims court, how to buy a used car, how to fight fair and stay on topic, how to ask for help, how to roll far from a tree, how to ask for forgiveness, how to forgive, how to give your local elected representatives symbols that sway them, how to read an ingredients label, how to quit a job when the boss first violates common decency, how to live frugally in case it's required, how to roll up one's sleeves and work one's potentials, how to keep relevant one's parents who will shortly be so old school, how to attend a family get-together like it was a candy store, how to weep openly, how to stay the course as a noose tightens, how to honor all scriptures as wisdom amassed by innocents, how to honor a Constitution written by slave owners, how to see love, how to ride romance, how to stop anything one is doing, how to start anything one wants to start, how to enjoy those we find on the path even when they're only walking our way for a bit, how to run a man's energy if you're a woman, how to be express your heart fully if you're a man, how to stand next to a deathbed and let your heart break, how to abide an enemy who will not leave your life, how to bear the world, how to see elitism in it's most clever guise. Seek, 1/4 of all people are intellectually incapable of much of the above without, well, special education, and failing to get that, it is certain that priorities will never be on their front burners. The masses are kept asses so that billions can be gotten from them one nickle at a time. Look into your heart. Edg --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seekliberation seekliberat...@... wrote: Offworld, quick question, i'm not very full of knowledge on the subject of socialized medicine vs. capitalist/insurance form of medical care. So it's hard for me to have a real opinion here. I only have one observation, and it is based on my own limited experience of my family and employment for the last 17 years. (you being from Europe where there is socialized medicine may be more knowledgeable). After I turned 18 I had no form of health care. Nor did my mother, father, sister, or aunt. What I find funny is that although we didn't have medical insurance, my sister had a convertible mazda miata, I always had an average of 1k to 2k in the bank at all times, everyone else had cable TV, and relatively nice cars and decent homes as well. I also remember members of my family spending quite large amounts of money on home improvements, cigarrettes, alcohol, and many other things. In addition, I remember most co-workers that I worked with over the years having the same issue. No health or dental insurance, but they always had money to spend on a dimebag, or quarterbag of weed every weekend. They always had a case of beer in the fridge, new rims on their cars, and badass stereos in their cars. These days, people I run into from my old high school or I hear about other friends and family who don't have medical insurance. But what they do have is an IPOD, cable TV, a rather nice car, home entertainment system, etc the list goes on. I recently looked up the average cost of health insurance per year for an adult. It's $1800 per year, roughly. Obviously if you're a crack whore living on a freeway in a war zone during a soccer riot, you may have to add a little to that premium. So here's my theory: Even if i'm totally maxed out and broke at the end of any given month, what would I have to do to get health coverage (assuming 1800/yr average)? Basically, I need another $150 a month. But what if my M-F 40hr week job doesn't cover that? Ok, if I get a part time job on a weekend, one night a week making 7.25/hr for 8 hours would that cover it? 7.25X8 is about $60, 60 X 4 weeks is 240 a month, and that's well over what I would need for health coverage.
[FairfieldLife] Re: You Can't Fix Stupid (Was: Britain has best Health system - America has worst)
Seek, 1/4 of all people are intellectually incapable of much of the above without, well, special education, and failing to get that, it is certain that priorities will never be on their front burners. The masses are kept asses so that billions can be gotten from them one nickle at a time. Look into your heart. Edg I agree with you a lot. However, another observation I see from people who are intellectually incapable of much of what you wrote are more often the same people who, during their middle/high school years, spent their time goofing off, getting into things they shouldn't, disrespecting their teachers, etc... At least that's why I can say my life, and the life of most of my friends during young adulthood was so messed up, all because we didn't listen to the people who were trying to teach us many of the things you mentioned. We regarded parents and teachers as a bunch of idiots that were in our way of getting what we wanted. So do I, or any of my friends have any real reason to complain for not having the discriminative ability to do any of the things that you had mentioned in your post? seekliberation
[FairfieldLife] Re: You Can't Fix Stupid (Was: Britain has best Health system - America has worst)
seekliberation wrote: So do I, or any of my friends have any real reason to complain for not having the discriminative ability to do any of the things that you had mentioned in your post? Just 17% of Americans say the government is more likely to spend its money wisely and carefully than a private business, according to a new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey. Sixty-two percent (62%) say a private business is more likely to spend its money carefully Full report: Rasmussen Reports, Friday, June 26, 2009 http://tinyurl.com/l7zpql
[FairfieldLife] Re: You Can't Fix Stupid (Was: Britain has best Health system - America has worst)
Just 17% of Americans say the government is more likely to spend its money wisely and carefully than a private business, according to a new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey. Sixty-two percent (62%) say a private business is more likely to spend its money carefully that would make sense. Private business actually feels the sting of poor spending, where government doesn't. If a government plan doesn't work, the senators and representatives still have a job making over 100k per year. If a private business's idea fails, they can potentially go out of business, or they have to lose employees. This is the argument of capitalism vs. socialism. to me, capitalism means survival of the fittest, and 'hopefully' the fittest will have enough compassion for the unfit after payday to me, socialism means everyone gets a payday, no matter how fit you are, we just have to figure out how to get that money from the fittest (in case you don't recognize, i'm not really assuming that either will work out perfectly, I think people fight for the one that corresponds to the type of person they are. I, personally, could live with either system.) seekliberation
[FairfieldLife] Re: You Can't Fix Stupid (Was: Britain has best Health system - America has worst)
Just 17% of Americans say the government is more likely to spend its money wisely and carefully than a private business, according to a new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey. Sixty-two percent (62%) say a private business is more likely to spend its money carefully seekliberation wrote: ...socialism means everyone gets a payday, no matter how fit you are, we just have to figure out how to get that money from the fittest The idea of a government-run health insurance program to compete with private plans is troubling even to potential Republican backers of a health care overhaul like Senator Collins. Ms. Collins said she would like to see the legislation put more emphasis on health promotion, disease prevention, end of life care, as well as tax credits for small businesses and self-employed Americans to ease their access to health insurance... Read more: 'Little Hope for G.O.P. to Support Health Bill' By Carl Hulse and David M. Herszenhorn New York Times, June 26, 2009 http://tinyurl.com/oe7ap6
[FairfieldLife] Re: You Can't Fix Stupid (Was: Britain has best Health system - America has worst)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com , seekliberation seekliberat...@... wrote: Offworld, quick question, i'm not very full of knowledge on the subject of socialized medicine vs. capitalist/insurance form of medical care. So it's hard for me to have a real opinion here. I only have one observation, and it is based on my own limited experience of my family and employment for the last 17 years. (you being from Europe where there is socialized medicine may be more knowledgeable). In addition, I remember most co-workers that I worked with over the years having the same issue. No health or dental insurance, but they always had money to spend on a dimebag, or quarterbag of weed every weekend. They always had a case of beer in the fridge, new rims on their cars, and badass stereos in their cars. These days, people I run into from my old high school or I hear about other friends and family who don't have medical insurance. But what they do have is an IPOD, cable TV, a rather nice car, home entertainment system, etc the list goes on. Hi Seeklib ;-) Everyone in Britain has health care, dental care, AND... i-pods, TV's, nice cars etc. In fact, about 1/4 of the cars in the US would not be allowed on British roads because they are too rusty, faulty, and clunky. And everyone has a roof over their head in Britain if they want it, and public transport in Europe is fairly cheap and all over the place You have tent cities in LA, and more poverty in the US than I have ever seen anywhere in Europe. Not only that, many countries did not get into as big a bailout as America, because they already had safety nets in place for everyone (health, unemployment, travel, re-training, etc.) for when you loose a job or the economy is bad. American taxpayers forked out about 2 trillion dollars to keep the system going - including poorly functioning corporations. That is not socialism, it is communism, but you will be paying for it for years. If you are in the military, that means your military budget is going to get a lot less money too, although I know Obama will do everything to prevent Vets loosing out (Bush/Cheney would have cut them. Period.) Police forces will have less money. Education will suffer, and that, my friend, is a matter of National Security - I'm not joking. The list goes on and on. I recently looked up the average cost of health insurance per year for an adult. It's $1800 per year, roughly. Obviously if you're a crack whore living on a freeway in a war zone during a soccer riot, you may have to add a little to that premium. That average cost sounds wrong. I'm, 47, live in the US, and it is $4,800 dollars a year for me in the US, and it does not include dental - which it does in Britain. I wouldn't mind paying 2,500-3,000 a year here, but I never get sick (not even colds) - so $4000 is ok, but just a little too much for my liking. But I am not concerned about myself, I can handle it. Its other people I am concerned about. Apparently mine is low compared to the average 47 year old. If I had a family, it would probably be much more (does anyone know how much families pay?) What happens when you have kids? You will get older, which will cost WAY more than 1,800 a month - (except the government will cover for military, just like they do in communist countries... and that is a good thing that military are covered.) My theory is that 'most' Americans who don't have health insurance don't have it because their priorities are fucked up. Or better put, their thirst for entertainment outweighs their own long term well being. I disagree. There are good families who lost jobs, lost houses, and are on the streets and have no health insurance. And that situation tends to spiral down, when there is no real safety net. And let me repeat, in Britain we have socialized medicine, but everyone still does ALL those good things you talked about, and more. We tend not to have as many second homes as Americans, I'll admit that. And therefore, there is no political agenda that will fix this situation. As Ron White put it You Can't Fix Stupid. As I always say at the end, I know there are some rare exceptions, but I have seen very few(like blind or deaf people who can't work, or retarded people, permenantly crippled, etc...). THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT: Generally speaking, as far as I understand it, even if you do not have insurance, you will get treated in the US if you are in an accident or have a heart attack, etc. (You may be forced to pay for it later though.) But if you get ling term sick and have any money, you can be sued for the costs, loose your house. loose everything. A long illness can BANKRUPT even RICH families.: Medical bills underlie 60 percent of U.S. bankrupts: study: More than 75 percent of these bankrupt families had health insurance but still were overwhelmed by their medical debts, the team at Harvard Law School, Harvard Medical School and Ohio
[FairfieldLife] Re: You Can't Fix Stupid (Was: Britain has best Health system - America has worst)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com , seekliberation seekliberat...@... wrote: Just 17% of Americans say the government is more likely to spend its money wisely and carefully than a private business, according to a new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey. Sixty-two percent (62%) say a private business is more likely to spend its money carefully that would make sense. Private business actually feels the sting of poor spending, where government doesn't. If a government plan doesn't work, the senators and representatives still have a job making over 100k per year. If a private business's idea fails, they can potentially go out of business, or they have to lose employees. This is the argument of capitalism vs. socialism. to me, capitalism means survival of the fittest, and 'hopefully' the fittest will have enough compassion for the unfit after payday to me, socialism means everyone gets a payday, no matter how fit you are, we just have to figure out how to get that money from the fittest That is short-sighted. All the scientific studies show that the species and sub-species that do the best, are those that co-operate with each other - help each other- not the dog eat dog - survival of the fittest. This is scientific fact, so I'm not worried about republicans who still want the old school ways. They don't work. Your system is archaic and absolutely has no chance of survival. This is not a judgement, it is just afact of life. My new term is Survivla of the Smartest -- and that means co-operation and healing the Earth to bring abundance . This is the future. It is not an opinion. It is a fact. Anything else is going back to the Dark Ages - which I will be very good, with my broadsword, at making you all my slaves if that is what you want. There is no way out Seeklib, this is the future. OffWorld (in case you don't recognize, i'm not really assuming that either will work out perfectly, I think people fight for the one that corresponds to the type of person they are. I, personally, could live with either system.) seekliberation
[FairfieldLife] Re: You Can't Fix Stupid (Was: Britain has best Health system - America has worst)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seekliberation seekliberat...@... wrote: ...i'm not very full of knowledge on the subject of socialized medicine vs. capitalist/insurance form of medical care... Seek, I like you, so I'm not going to light into you for this post. I'm simply going to post a few counterpoints to your points. I recently looked up the average cost of health insurance per year for an adult. It's $1800 per year, roughly. Ahem. The last time I lived in the US, as a 50-ish self-employed male with *zero* history of serious illness or risk factors, my health insurance premiums cost me $600+ per month. That's more like $7200 per year. Then I moved to France, where I was again a 50-ish self-employed male not eligible for the French health care system. So I had to go out and again buy health insurance from an independent insurance provider. When I did, I found that the cost of *better* health insur- ance than I had received for $600+ per month in the US cost me 235 Euros. Per year. Same 50-ish (now 60-ish) body. Same medical history. Different country. Different sensibilities with regard to what health care actually COSTS. *Better* health care and health care providers. So far I've been staying out of this health care debate on FFL because it's really not fair for me to participate in it. I currently live in Spain, where my yearly health care -- this time including full *dental* coverage -- costs me less than twice what I was paying in France, 400 Euros per year. You people in the United States are playing catch up after decades of allowing the insurance and health care war profiteers to fuck you in the ass, without even using a little K-Y jelly to make the experience less painful. It's not the insurance industry's and the health care industry's fault -- it's YOUR fault for letting things go so far. If you had just TRAVELED, and seen for yourselves what sane countries do about taking care of their citizens, you would never have allowed this state of affairs to happen. But you didn't. You sat back on your fat asses and believed the America has the best standard of living in the world meme and allowed the for-profit doctors and the for-profit hospitals and the for-BIG- profit HMOs and the for-INSANE-profit insurance companies to tell you what health care really costs. They've been LYING to you. And you've been LETTING them. The blame lies IMO in the laps of those who didn't do their homework and find out what drugs and health care and health services *really* cost, and wonder more loudly why they were paying 5-to-100 times that much for *their* health care. On this subject, living as I do in a fairly SANE country, one that sees health care as a basic right, not a luxury, it really is not fair for me to comment more on this issue in the United States. All I can do is echo the Subject line -- You can't fix stupid -- and add a sub-Subject line -- Stupid gets what it deserves.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: You Can't Fix Stupid (Was: Britain has best Health system - America has worst)
TurquoiseB wrote: Ahem. The last time I lived in the US, as a 50-ish self-employed male with *zero* history of serious illness or risk factors, my health insurance premiums cost me $600+ per month. That's more like $7200 per year. That must've been a co-pay $50 deductible policy. IOW, pretty much what you'd get with most group policies back then. I rode a Cobra until it ran out and had a discussion with an agent from that health insurance company. Because I'm overweight they wanted to tack on a 50% surcharge (which drove my doctor nuts). I mused to the agent I suppose everyone at (name of insurance company) is slim and trim knowing from telltale signs of her voice she wasn't. Immediately she started mentioning money saving policies I could have (gee where were those before). So basically I purchased a $1500 deductible policy. Given I also have had few health problems doing the math it doesn't take long to put away some savings for those kinds of deductibles. I say if the European countries can provide health care for so little so can the US. But the US is a capitalistic cluster fuck with everyone out to get theirs. We are so screwed.
[FairfieldLife] Re: You Can't Fix Stupid (Was: Britain has best Health system - America has worst)
Hi Seeklib ;-) Not only that, many countries did not get into as big a bailout as America, because they already had safety nets in place for everyone (health, unemployment, travel, re-training, etc.) for when you loose a job or the economy is bad. American taxpayers forked out about 2 trillion dollars to keep the system going - including poorly functioning corporations. That is not socialism, it is communism, but you will be paying for it for years. I know, it pisses me off. People say we're capitalist, but bailing out poorly functioning companies is communism, as you've pointed out. Americans are way too attached to their current system. If you are in the military, that means your military budget is going to get a lot less money too, although I know Obama will do everything to prevent Vets losing out (Bush/Cheney would have cut them. Period.) Police forces will have less money. Education will suffer, and that, my friend, is a matter of National Security - I'm not joking. Yeah, another illusion that Republicans like is that they're pro-military. During the Clinton years, miltary didn't really suffer much. Yeah, some bases were closed down, but that was for efficiency. This year, our reenlisment bonuses have been reduced, but my attitude is 'so what?' Military isn't the only aspect of society that is in need. People in the military don't see it that way. Another illusion is that the democrats are less prone to war. True, they don't start major wars, but they usually have a lot more covert operations going on. SEAL's, Recon, Rangers, and Special Forces were quite busy during the Clinton administration. Now that Obama is in office, they will start becoming more active, while conventional forces will start to settle down (unless North Korea starts something big). That average cost sounds wrong. I'm, 47, live in the US, and it is $4,800 dollars a year for me in the US, and it does not include dental - which it does in Britain. I wouldn't mind paying 2,500-3,000 a year here, but I never get sick (not even colds) - so $4000 is ok, but just a little too much for my liking. But I am not concerned about myself, I can handle it. Its other people I am concerned about. Apparently mine is low compared to the average 47 year old. If I had a family, it would probably be much more (does anyone know how much families pay?) wow, 4800? 400/month, to me that's a bit too much, unless you're in horrible health. I almost left the military to work as a contracter, and I looked into basic coverage. In 2004, it would've been just over $1800/yr for me. If I retire out of the military, I can get family coverage for about $1000/yr, but that's due to retirement benefits. However, i'm skeptical of the quality of care I would get. I disagree. There are good families who lost jobs, lost houses, and are on the streets and have no health insurance. And that situation tends to spiral down, when there is no real safety net. And let me repeat, in Britain we have socialized medicine, but everyone still does ALL those good things you talked about, and more. We tend not to have as many second homes as Americans, I'll admit that. I think our disagreement comes from the people we know, and I emphasized that in my post. I do come from a lower class background and have been surrounded by people with rather serious attitude problems, drug problems, work ethic issues, etc which I feel is the #1 source of their problems. Of course, i'm on board with you regarding good families who've lost jobs, houses, and have no insurance. The capitalist solution says that there will be charity organizations available for emergency cases like that, which I think is bullshit. The socialist solution says they will have something to fall back on, a safety net. Personally, I don't care which system is used, i'll do what I have to in order to make it. But I think I could probably mentally relax more with one system over the other. No system is perfect, but I grew up with everyone's health care taken care of. Period. It is completely unnatural and barbaric to me that some people don't even go for care for fear of costs, others can go bankrupt. My Dad was a well paid air traffic controller, and he never complained about the tiny amount taken off his pay check for health insurance for all people (he complained a lot about local property taxes - which were about the same as most places in the US.) However, the whole argument is irrelevant unless we can get corporate profit out of health care. That is killing the system. Doctors have their hands tied by these greedy bastards. Many people are getting given expensive treatments they don't even need, because the corporations - (who do not properly pay their taxes in the US - in other words they are stealing out of your pocket - right now ) -- they have the system sewn up. They are lobbying
[FairfieldLife] Re: You Can't Fix Stupid (Was: Britain has best Health system - America has worst)
On this subject, living as I do in a fairly SANE country, one that sees health care as a basic right, not a luxury, it really is not fair for me to comment more on this issue in the United States. All I can do is echo the Subject line -- You can't fix stupid -- and add a sub-Subject line -- Stupid gets what it deserves. Turq, good point. When I looked into avg health care costs, I was putting in for a different program available to myself, but most are not eligible for. I would be eligible for full coverage for just under 2k per year. However, i'm in a different category as most americans. So I can imagine the cost will most likely double for most civilians. And yes, stupid does get what it deserves. seekliberation
[FairfieldLife] Re: You Can't Fix Stupid (Was: Britain has best Health system - America has worst)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: snip If you had just TRAVELED, and seen for yourselves what sane countries do about taking care of their citizens, you would never have allowed this state of affairs to happen. But you didn't. You sat back on your fat asses and believed the America has the best standard of living in the world meme and allowed the for-profit doctors and the for-profit hospitals and the for-BIG- profit HMOs and the for-INSANE-profit insurance companies to tell you what health care really costs. Actually, there's a much simpler (and much less expensive) way Americans could have become informed about the cost of their health care relative to what people pay in other countries: the media could have told us. The fact of how much more we pay *should* have been in the first paragraph of every story in the mainstream media about health care reform. But it's almost never mentioned. Total health expenditures per capita, 2003 United States $5711 Australia $2886 Austria $2958 Belgium $3044 Canada $2998 Denmark $2743 Finland $2104 France $3048 Germany $2983 Iceland $3159 Ireland $2466 Italy $2314 Japan $2249 Luxembourg $4611 Netherlands $2909 Norway $3769 Sweden $2745 Switzerland $3847 United Kingdom $2317 http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/chcm010307oth.cfm They've been LYING to you. And you've been LETTING them. The blame lies IMO in the laps of those who didn't do their homework and find out what drugs and health care and health services *really* cost, and wonder more loudly why they were paying 5-to-100 times that much for *their* health care. Actually only about twice as much, on average. But that's bad enough.
[FairfieldLife] Re: You Can't Fix Stupid (Was: Britain has best Health system - America has worst)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seekliberation seekliberat...@... wrote: Hi Seeklib ;-) Not only that, many countries did not get into as big a bailout as America, because they already had safety nets in place for everyone (health, unemployment, travel, re-training, etc.) for when you loose a job or the economy is bad. American taxpayers forked out about 2 trillion dollars to keep the system going - including poorly functioning corporations. That is not socialism, it is communism, but you will be paying for it for years. I know, it pisses me off. People say we're capitalist, but bailing out poorly functioning companies is communism, as you've pointed out. Americans are way too attached to their current system. If you are in the military, that means your military budget is going to get a lot less money too, although I know Obama will do everything to prevent Vets losing out (Bush/Cheney would have cut them. Period.) Police forces will have less money. Education will suffer, and that, my friend, is a matter of National Security - I'm not joking. Yeah, another illusion that Republicans like is that they're pro-military. During the Clinton years, miltary didn't really suffer much. Yeah, some bases were closed down, but that was for efficiency. This year, our reenlisment bonuses have been reduced, but my attitude is 'so what?' Military isn't the only aspect of society that is in need. People in the military don't see it that way. Another illusion is that the democrats are less prone to war. True, they don't start major wars, but they usually have a lot more covert operations going on. SEAL's, Recon, Rangers, and Special Forces were quite busy during the Clinton administration. Now that Obama is in office, they will start becoming more active, while conventional forces will start to settle down (unless North Korea starts something big). That average cost sounds wrong. I'm, 47, live in the US, and it is $4,800 dollars a year for me in the US, and it does not include dental - which it does in Britain. I wouldn't mind paying 2,500-3,000 a year here, but I never get sick (not even colds) - so $4000 is ok, but just a little too much for my liking. But I am not concerned about myself, I can handle it. Its other people I am concerned about. Apparently mine is low compared to the average 47 year old. If I had a family, it would probably be much more (does anyone know how much families pay?) wow, 4800? 400/month, to me that's a bit too much, unless you're in horrible health. I almost left the military to work as a contracter, and I looked into basic coverage. In 2004, it would've been just over $1800/yr for me. If I retire out of the military, I can get family coverage for about $1000/yr, but that's due to retirement benefits. However, i'm skeptical of the quality of care I would get. I disagree. There are good families who lost jobs, lost houses, and are on the streets and have no health insurance. And that situation tends to spiral down, when there is no real safety net. And let me repeat, in Britain we have socialized medicine, but everyone still does ALL those good things you talked about, and more. We tend not to have as many second homes as Americans, I'll admit that. I think our disagreement comes from the people we know, and I emphasized that in my post. I do come from a lower class background and have been surrounded by people with rather serious attitude problems, drug problems, work ethic issues, etc which I feel is the #1 source of their problems. Of course, i'm on board with you regarding good families who've lost jobs, houses, and have no insurance. The capitalist solution says that there will be charity organizations available for emergency cases like that, which I think is bullshit. The socialist solution says they will have something to fall back on, a safety net. Personally, I don't care which system is used, i'll do what I have to in order to make it. But I think I could probably mentally relax more with one system over the other. No system is perfect, but I grew up with everyone's health care taken care of. Period. It is completely unnatural and barbaric to me that some people don't even go for care for fear of costs, others can go bankrupt. My Dad was a well paid air traffic controller, and he never complained about the tiny amount taken off his pay check for health insurance for all people (he complained a lot about local property taxes - which were about the same as most places in the US.) However, the whole argument is irrelevant unless we can get corporate profit out of health care. That is killing the system. Doctors have their hands tied by these greedy bastards. Many people are getting given expensive treatments they don't even need, because the corporations - (who do not properly pay their taxes in the US - in other words they are stealing out of your pocket - right now ) -- they have the system sewn up. They are lobbying (ie.
