[FairfieldLife] Don't Throw Out the Baby with the Bathwater (Re: Have YOU killed..?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: snip I call this whole idea of Jesus dying for my sins as the Free Lunch approach to karma. That somehow I am forgiven my sins by an act performed by Jesus some 2,000 years before I was born. What happened to taking responsibility for my OWN actions? As ye sow so shall ye reap? Yes, certainly, I can eventually obtain self-realization and the cycle of karma will still occur to my body and life as I silently witness it. But I can't help thinking of someone like Mark David Chapman, the murderer of John Lennon who has, of course, found Jesus oh-so- conveniently while in prison. He snuffed out the life of a 40-year-old creative man with two sons yet now everything is a-okay on the karma front because he's accepted Jesus Christ as his personal savior. But he's still in jail, right? What do you think *should* happen to him beyond temporal punishment? I'm for capital punishment, so I would have liked to see him executed. If you don't believe he's really been saved, is your objection to his having accepted Jesus as his savior that he gets to *think* he's been saved, whereas he should be wallowing in guilt, or live the rest of his life in terror that he's going to hell? My objection is that there is a wide-spread interpretation to Christianity out there that is made available to people such as this so that they can latch on to it and, yes, as you say, think they are saved. And also that we have to hear about it...AND he gets to perpetuate it by talking about it. This free-lunch approach I believe puts the idea of non-responsibility out there and can result in crimes because people think that they can subsequently get saved and wash the bad karma away. These aren't rhetorical questions; I'm just trying to nail down exactly where you think the problem lies. Me, I don't believe in the whole substitutionary atonement thing. I do think *belief* in it may have a certain psychological utility. A minister of my acquaintance used to say, If God forgives you, who the heck are you not to forgive yourself? Well, actually, I like that. That's a pretty life-affirming statement. One element of having all your past sins forgiven is that you're supposed to do your best not to commit any new ones. Seems to me it's easier to make that kind of effort if you're not weighed down by a huge burden of guilt and convinced that you're irredeemable, that God couldn't possibly love and forgive you. No idea whether or how that might apply in Chapman's case, though. If you're genuinely psychotic, that must change the equation.
[FairfieldLife] Don't Throw Out the Baby with the Bathwater (Re: Have YOU killed..?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, yateendrajee mcint...@... wrote: [snip] When I consider Jesus' sacrifice, [snip] I prefer the Isaac/Abraham sacrifice. No one actually got killed in that one.
[FairfieldLife] Don't Throw Out the Baby with the Bathwater (Re: Have YOU killed..?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Kirk kirk_bernha...@... wrote: The point of dying for ones sins is that one need do no more sacrifices. The process of sacrificing seems to me to be the process of transcending. When you transcend into pure consciousness, you have sacrificed the whole world and your attachment to it to get there. - Original Message - From: yateendrajee mcint...@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 9:24 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Don't Throw Out the Baby with the Bathwater (Re: Have YOU killed..?) The question of whether Jesus died for our sins may not be as trivial as it looks on the surface. It is a well-accepted doctrine in the East that a spiritual master often works out the karma of members of his circle by processing it through his/her own body. This can result in diseases and, in some cases, death for the master. Also, many in the East regard Jesus as the avatar, an incarnation of Vishnu, the universal sustainer (Rama and Krishna were also avatars of Vishnu). If Jesus was a universal master (a spiritual figure who claimed all humanity as his students, many of them unconscious of the fact), there is a logical basis for considering his sacrifice as having been on our behalf. One could also consider Jesus' sacrifice as a kind of clearing the atmosphere of that time, smoothing the path for future generations (Isaiah 40:4 uses a similar metaphor when prophesying the coming of the Messiah). On the foregoing basis, I'd answer Maharishi's question: He both lived *and* died for me. [I will freely admit that most practicing Christians have a limited understanding of the meaning of Jesus' sacrifice, and many other limitations in their beliefs, e.g., exclusivism (Jesus is the only way), etc.] --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert babajii_99@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: Once when a born again Christian (who also happened to be a TM teacher) told Maharishi that Christ died for his sins, Maharishi replied: Did he die for you or did he live for you? (snip) Great observation, simple and true... The whole 'Died for YOu'...is so absurd. ... Crazy Religion! R.G. To subscribe, send a message to: fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links
[FairfieldLife] Don't Throw Out the Baby with the Bathwater (Re: Have YOU killed..?)
The question of whether Jesus died for our sins may not be as trivial as it looks on the surface. It is a well-accepted doctrine in the East that a spiritual master often works out the karma of members of his circle by processing it through his/her own body. This can result in diseases and, in some cases, death for the master. Also, many in the East regard Jesus as the avatar, an incarnation of Vishnu, the universal sustainer (Rama and Krishna were also avatars of Vishnu). If Jesus was a universal master (a spiritual figure who claimed all humanity as his students, many of them unconscious of the fact), there is a logical basis for considering his sacrifice as having been on our behalf. One could also consider Jesus' sacrifice as a kind of clearing the atmosphere of that time, smoothing the path for future generations (Isaiah 40:4 uses a similar metaphor when prophesying the coming of the Messiah). On the foregoing basis, I'd answer Maharishi's question: He both lived *and* died for me. [I will freely admit that most practicing Christians have a limited understanding of the meaning of Jesus' sacrifice, and many other limitations in their beliefs, e.g., exclusivism (Jesus is the only way), etc.] --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert babajii...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: Once when a born again Christian (who also happened to be a TM teacher) told Maharishi that Christ died for his sins, Maharishi replied: Did he die for you or did he live for you? (snip) Great observation, simple and true... The whole 'Died for YOu'...is so absurd. ... Crazy Religion! R.G.
[FairfieldLife] Don't Throw Out the Baby with the Bathwater (Re: Have YOU killed..?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, yateendrajee mcint...@... wrote: The question of whether Jesus died for our sins may not be as trivial as it looks on the surface. It is a well-accepted doctrine in the East that a spiritual master often works out the karma of members of his circle by processing it through his/her own body. This can result in diseases and, in some cases, death for the master. Also, many in the East regard Jesus as the avatar, an incarnation of Vishnu, the universal sustainer (Rama and Krishna were also avatars of Vishnu). If Jesus was a universal master (a spiritual figure who claimed all humanity as his students, many of them unconscious of the fact), there is a logical basis for considering his sacrifice as having been on our behalf. One could also consider Jesus' sacrifice as a kind of clearing the atmosphere of that time, smoothing the path for future generations (Isaiah 40:4 uses a similar metaphor when prophesying the coming of the Messiah). On the foregoing basis, I'd answer Maharishi's question: He both lived *and* died for me. Well, that is, as I remember the audio tape, exactly word-for-word how the born-again TM teacher responded to Maharishi. I call this whole idea of Jesus dying for my sins as the Free Lunch approach to karma. That somehow I am forgiven my sins by an act performed by Jesus some 2,000 years before I was born. What happened to taking responsibility for my OWN actions? As ye sow so shall ye reap? Yes, certainly, I can eventually obtain self-realization and the cycle of karma will still occur to my body and life as I silently witness it. But I can't help thinking of someone like Mark David Chapman, the murderer of John Lennon who has, of course, found Jesus oh-so-conveniently while in prison. He snuffed out the life of a 40-year-old creative man with two sons yet now everything is a-okay on the karma front because he's accepted Jesus Christ as his personal savior. [I will freely admit that most practicing Christians have a limited understanding of the meaning of Jesus' sacrifice, and many other limitations in their beliefs, e.g., exclusivism (Jesus is the only way), etc.] --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert babajii_99@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: Once when a born again Christian (who also happened to be a TM teacher) told Maharishi that Christ died for his sins, Maharishi replied: Did he die for you or did he live for you? (snip) Great observation, simple and true... The whole 'Died for YOu'...is so absurd. ... Crazy Religion! R.G.
[FairfieldLife] Don't Throw Out the Baby with the Bathwater (Re: Have YOU killed..?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcg...@... wrote: snip I call this whole idea of Jesus dying for my sins as the Free Lunch approach to karma. That somehow I am forgiven my sins by an act performed by Jesus some 2,000 years before I was born. What happened to taking responsibility for my OWN actions? As ye sow so shall ye reap? Yes, certainly, I can eventually obtain self-realization and the cycle of karma will still occur to my body and life as I silently witness it. But I can't help thinking of someone like Mark David Chapman, the murderer of John Lennon who has, of course, found Jesus oh-so- conveniently while in prison. He snuffed out the life of a 40-year-old creative man with two sons yet now everything is a-okay on the karma front because he's accepted Jesus Christ as his personal savior. But he's still in jail, right? What do you think *should* happen to him beyond temporal punishment? If you don't believe he's really been saved, is your objection to his having accepted Jesus as his savior that he gets to *think* he's been saved, whereas he should be wallowing in guilt, or live the rest of his life in terror that he's going to hell? These aren't rhetorical questions; I'm just trying to nail down exactly where you think the problem lies. Me, I don't believe in the whole substitutionary atonement thing. I do think *belief* in it may have a certain psychological utility. A minister of my acquaintance used to say, If God forgives you, who the heck are you not to forgive yourself? One element of having all your past sins forgiven is that you're supposed to do your best not to commit any new ones. Seems to me it's easier to make that kind of effort if you're not weighed down by a huge burden of guilt and convinced that you're irredeemable, that God couldn't possibly love and forgive you. No idea whether or how that might apply in Chapman's case, though. If you're genuinely psychotic, that must change the equation.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Don't Throw Out the Baby with the Bathwater (Re: Have YOU killed..?)
The point of dying for ones sins is that one need do no more sacrifices. - Original Message - From: yateendrajee mcint...@scn.org To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 9:24 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Don't Throw Out the Baby with the Bathwater (Re: Have YOU killed..?) The question of whether Jesus died for our sins may not be as trivial as it looks on the surface. It is a well-accepted doctrine in the East that a spiritual master often works out the karma of members of his circle by processing it through his/her own body. This can result in diseases and, in some cases, death for the master. Also, many in the East regard Jesus as the avatar, an incarnation of Vishnu, the universal sustainer (Rama and Krishna were also avatars of Vishnu). If Jesus was a universal master (a spiritual figure who claimed all humanity as his students, many of them unconscious of the fact), there is a logical basis for considering his sacrifice as having been on our behalf. One could also consider Jesus' sacrifice as a kind of clearing the atmosphere of that time, smoothing the path for future generations (Isaiah 40:4 uses a similar metaphor when prophesying the coming of the Messiah). On the foregoing basis, I'd answer Maharishi's question: He both lived *and* died for me. [I will freely admit that most practicing Christians have a limited understanding of the meaning of Jesus' sacrifice, and many other limitations in their beliefs, e.g., exclusivism (Jesus is the only way), etc.] --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert babajii...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: Once when a born again Christian (who also happened to be a TM teacher) told Maharishi that Christ died for his sins, Maharishi replied: Did he die for you or did he live for you? (snip) Great observation, simple and true... The whole 'Died for YOu'...is so absurd. ... Crazy Religion! R.G. To subscribe, send a message to: fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [FairfieldLife] Don't Throw Out the Baby with the Bathwater (Re: Have YOU killed..?)
Isn't one of the keys to TM letting go , taking it as it comes? Another way of forgiving. TM , an excellent practice in learning how to forgive us our sins as we forgive others. Not holding on to the past or being anxious about the future. --- On Mon, 4/13/09, authfriend jst...@panix.com wrote: From: authfriend jst...@panix.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Don't Throw Out the Baby with the Bathwater (Re: Have YOU killed..?) To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, April 13, 2009, 3:07 PM --- In FairfieldLife@ yahoogroups. com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ ... wrote: snip I call this whole idea of Jesus dying for my sins as the Free Lunch approach to karma. That somehow I am forgiven my sins by an act performed by Jesus some 2,000 years before I was born. What happened to taking responsibility for my OWN actions? As ye sow so shall ye reap? Yes, certainly, I can eventually obtain self-realization and the cycle of karma will still occur to my body and life as I silently witness it. But I can't help thinking of someone like Mark David Chapman, the murderer of John Lennon who has, of course, found Jesus oh-so- conveniently while in prison. He snuffed out the life of a 40-year-old creative man with two sons yet now everything is a-okay on the karma front because he's accepted Jesus Christ as his personal savior. But he's still in jail, right? What do you think *should* happen to him beyond temporal punishment? If you don't believe he's really been saved, is your objection to his having accepted Jesus as his savior that he gets to *think* he's been saved, whereas he should be wallowing in guilt, or live the rest of his life in terror that he's going to hell? These aren't rhetorical questions; I'm just trying to nail down exactly where you think the problem lies. Me, I don't believe in the whole substitutionary atonement thing. I do think *belief* in it may have a certain psychological utility. A minister of my acquaintance used to say, If God forgives you, who the heck are you not to forgive yourself? One element of having all your past sins forgiven is that you're supposed to do your best not to commit any new ones. Seems to me it's easier to make that kind of effort if you're not weighed down by a huge burden of guilt and convinced that you're irredeemable, that God couldn't possibly love and forgive you. No idea whether or how that might apply in Chapman's case, though. If you're genuinely psychotic, that must change the equation.
[FairfieldLife] Don't Throw Out the Baby with the Bathwater (Re: Have YOU killed..?)
I have absolutely no argument with your reservations. I realized after sending that I'd neglected an important qualification to my understanding of how masters process the karmic impressions of those near them. It is not a wholesale processing. Only impressions which would defeat the disciple's role in the master's mission would be processed. I think the second way I imagined the meaning of Jesus dying for our sins is the most helpful. His sacrifice served to clear obstacles on many planes of existence which has sped up evolution for humanity and other life forms on this planet. We are all beneficiaries of that. When I consider Jesus' sacrifice, I don't imagine that it excuses me from having to own up to actions borne of wrong understanding. I consider the laws of karma to be something like the prescription of a cosmic doctor, such that the experience which comes my way is specifically designed to trigger insight into how I screwed up in the past, and I can amend my ways. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcg...@... wrote: I call this whole idea of Jesus dying for my sins as the Free Lunch approach to karma. ... What happened to taking responsibility for my OWN actions?
