Re: [farsiweb] Farsi heh + hamzeh above

2002-05-25 Thread Ali Khanban



Abi Lover wrote:

 From: Ali Khanban [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 It seems to me that these are all different shapes of one letter
 hamza. But heh+hamza above is a mixture of two letters: heh and 
 a transformed yeh. It is not even a ligature, because it is not 
 supposed to be handled by font to write heh+hamza above instead of 
 heh and yeh.

 Abi Lover wrote:


 Letter forms like vav + hamzeh or alef + hamzeh are 
 representations of TWO sounds and letters, a vowel, plus what 
 linguists call a glottal stop, which is represented by the hamzeh. 
 Linguists have traditionally transliterated this glottal stop in the 
 Latin script with an inverted comma {'}. Actually, the sound it 
 represents is more often a glottal plosive than a glottal stop. In a 
 word like mo'men, it is a glottal stop; but in a word like mas'ul, 
 it is a glottal plosive. In the English language, this glottal stop 
 (or rather plosive) occurs only at the beginning of words which begin 
 with a vowel, like {a,e,i,o,u}, therefore it is not represented by a 
 separate character. it is taken for granted. But in Arabic and Farsi, 
 because it can also occur in the middle and at the end of words, it 
 needs to be represented by a special character of its own. It is in 
 fact a fully fledged consonant, and has its own distinct sound and 
 alphabetical representation in the language. Thus it is not correct to 
 say that all these different letter forms are different shapes of one 
 letter hamzeh. They are representations of different vowels plus 
 the glottal stop. vav + hamzeh is a representation of the vowels {o} 
 or {u}, plus the glottal stop or plosive. In mo'men, the glottal 
 stop occurs after the vowel; in mas'ul, the glottal plosive occurs 
 before the vowel. But in both cases, the shape represents a 
 combination of the two. 

I am not agree with you in your conclusion. Again I insist that there is 
a letter called hamza in Arabic and it is used in Farsi as you 
described. But the fact is that this is one letter with different shapes 
according to the sound and place of it in the word. In mo'men we can't 
say that vav+hamza sounds as o + stop, because there is an o which 
is not written, as we always omit them. And because of that o, the 
letter hamza is written on a base shaped as vav.  Linguistically, in 
a word like mo'akkad, we have:
m a consonant
o a vowel (is not written)
hamza a consonant (is written on a base like the letter vav
a a vowel (is not written)
k a consonant
k a consonant (is changed to tashdid)
a a vowel (is not written)
d a consonant.

hamza is a letter with different shapes.  These shapes are not always 
the same in Farsi and Arabic. For example, in Farsi we use a shape 
dandaneh for hamza in pangu'an which would be a shape like vav 
if we had used the Arabic style.

Best
-khanban-



||   Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College of Sci, Tech  Med, London SW7 2BZ, UK
||   Tel +44 (20) 7594 8241   Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
|||  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban




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[farsiweb]Farsi, heh, +, hamzeh, above

2002-05-24 Thread Abi Lover




I don' agree with Khanban's reasons for not using the letter form heh + hamzeh above. The same reasons could be given for not using vav + hamzeh above. For example, {mas'ul} could also be written as {mas ool} (with alef instead of hamzeh), and {so'a^l} could also be written as {so aal} (with alef-madd instead of hamzeh); and it is quite possible that in the distant future people will start writing them that way. However, if it is true that the Unicode standard encodes this shape in a way that is not compatible with Farsi, then that would be a justifiable reason for not adopting it in the standard. But in that case, it should be explained in the standard why it cannot be adopted, and it should also be explained (especially for the benefit of software developers for whom Farsi is not the native language) that this shape is commonly used in Farsi, and that there is nothing to stop font dev!
elopers and application developers from supporting this shape as a ligature, provided that it is properly implemented so that it can be correctly parsed into its appropriate Unicode equivalents.

I have also noticed that on the latest ISRI standard for a Farsi keyboard layout, this shape is not supported either. It supports vav + hamzeh above, and even supports some obscure Arabic characters which are hardly ever used in Farsi, such as the Arabic round T, and Arabic yeh with two dots below, but not heh + hamzeh above, which is extensively used in farsi. There is no justification for this. The purpose of such standards should not be to tell people how to write Farsi. People decide how to write Farsi. The standard should encode and standardize what people write. A keyboard layout is not dependent on Unicode encodings. Since this letter form is used extensively in Farsi, it should be possible to enter it with a single stroke of the keyboard, as is the case with vav + hamzeh above, instead of having to type two key strokes to write it; and font and software d!
evelopers should be guided to support it as a ligature in their fonts and applications.

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