Nodoka 0.2 for KDE
Hi, I just uploaded it to my fedorapeople space[1]. I'll upload it to git soon! Oh, and sorry about the name... I just remember that it's called ndoka-kwin-theme after I uploaded this :D Have fun and give feedbacks :) Cheers! [1] http://ljuwaida.fedorapeople.org/Artwork/Nodoka/KDE/WindowDecoration/NodokaWindowDecorationKDE-0.2.tar.gz -- Laith Juwaidah http://www.ljuwaidah.org/ ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Icon theme for ubuntu
Shame yourself, Echo artists. Tango! style guidelines are making icons looks perfect. Look [1] ! Echo looks like icon theme for Sugar interface... 1| http://bomahy.nl/hylke/blog/ubuntu-icon-theme/ -- (o_ Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek //\ Fedora Project || | V_/_ http://liviopl.jogger.pl/ signature.asc Description: To jest część wiadomości podpisana cyfrowo ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Icon theme for ubuntu
On Wed, 2007-11-21 at 13:39 +0100, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote: I think it's not hard to create professional looking icon theme. Try Echo with Infinity theme - this is proffesional? I don't think so. If it is not hard, why do you do it and come back when you have something to show ? ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Icon theme for ubuntu
Because I have no graphic skills. Don't tell me shut up, even in a subtle way, because I don't want Fedora to look like ugly piece of dog's... shit. Dnia 21-11-2007, śro o godzinie 08:13 -0500, Matthias Clasen pisze: On Wed, 2007-11-21 at 13:39 +0100, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote: I think it's not hard to create professional looking icon theme. Try Echo with Infinity theme - this is proffesional? I don't think so. If it is not hard, why do you do it and come back when you have something to show ? ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list -- (o_ Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek //\ Fedora Project || | V_/_ http://liviopl.jogger.pl/ signature.asc Description: To jest część wiadomości podpisana cyfrowo ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Icon theme for ubuntu
On Wed, 2007-11-21 at 14:14 +0100, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote: Because I have no graphic skills. Don't tell me shut up, even in a subtle way, because I don't want Fedora to look like ugly piece of dog's... shit. Please, don't use harsh expressions. It is your opinion and you ought to be well aware of that. There are plenty of people who like Echo, there are plenty of people who use Echo even though it is still far from complete (including me) and there are plenty of people who disgust tango icons. Don't expect anything will be as YOU please. This is community driven project, not a one man show. So, you are welcome to criticise, but you are even more welcome to contribute yourself. Don't expect us to throw all the work we have done on Echo away. And always bear in mind - beauty is subjective. Thanks, Martin ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Icon theme for ubuntu
Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote: Because I have no graphic skills. Then don't judge what is hard or easy. Don't tell me shut up, even in a subtle way, because I don't want Fedora to look like ugly piece of dog's... shit. You can at least package those Unbuntu icons for Fedora so those who want them and find them perfect can easily install. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Icon theme for ubuntu
GDM is already themed.
Look at %{_bindir}/gdmsetup.
Dnia 21-11-2007, śro o godzinie 18:08 +0100, David Nielsen pisze:
On Wed, 2007-11-21 at 08:13 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote:
On Wed, 2007-11-21 at 13:39 +0100, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:
I think it's not hard to create professional looking icon theme.
Try Echo with Infinity theme - this is proffesional? I don't think so.
If it is not hard, why do you do it and come back when you have
something to show ?
yum install tango-icon-theme, there's something to show.
Shall I start filing bugs on all the components in Fedora that currently
does not accept an easy theme change such as rhgb, gdm, anaconda and so
on (preferredly something like replacing the fedora-artwork package or a
similar option). I believe that was the proposed solution we got from
the art team the last time, yet no work has gone into enabling said
choice of the user. A choice which will be needed since echo has poor
accessibility - However this was claimed as not being a target (a
complete understandable and acceptable design decision if it wasn't for
the fact that the aim is to be our default iconset), despite the rest of
the distro aiming for good defaults for handicapped people. Advancements
such as PolicyKit are being integrate which will enable using a screen
reader on applications which would normally not work, a specific goal on
moral grounds as pointed out by davidz in his linux.conf.au 2007 talk
Gluing a desktop and a kernel together[1].
Why should our artwork go against such a goal, being handicapped myself
and having worked extensively which people suffering from a wide range
impairments I can honestly say this group of users have very little
choice currently not to mention they are tied to proprietary platforms.
Fedora has a clear market opening if we want it, furthermore with laws
being the way they are in most countries we cannot be used in government
deployments unless we are accessible (Section 508 in the US e.g.).
I have mainly been a pain about this because I think it's a moral
obligation to ensure that everyone has the option to use Fedora and I
believe the default should strive for a mix of good looks and good
accessibility - Tango has that and it has good adoption upstream
(OpenOffice, GIMP, Jokosher.. many projects default to using Tango
icons).
The only way to offer Echo, Tango and everything else which is on the
table would be to easily allow theme changes for the entire system, not
just session icons and select a sensible default - this work has not
been done, seeing as the artwork team wants Echo and originally offered
this solution I assumed they would be filing the bugs - this however
does not seem to be the case.
This is not about my personal opinion on the look of Echo, it's about
being able to offer the choice of freedom to a group of people who
currently has none and expanding our potential userbase.
Untill you have seen the change of life quality the ability to
communicate and work does to a person who is paralysed from the neck
down, I doubt anyone will truly understand. I happen to have seen this,
an accessible computer gave this person the option to work 10-15 hours a
week - the change in his life cannot be expressed. I would like to see
us offer that without the hefty pricetag and exclusion from common
applications they currently have. I would like this kind of profound
change to be part of what we help give to the world. I think it starts
with addressing the most widespread impairments.. eye sight (degraded
eye sight, color blindness, etc.). Much of that can be done with good
defaults, some requires the option of having e.g. high contrast icons
(colorblindness can now been aided by compiz plugins - I'm unsure of the
current state of tie in to the accessibility settings).
Additionally an option to change the system unified look would make
branding for special deployment as well as spins much nicer.
Thank you for your time,
David Nielsen
[1]
http://mirror.linux.org.au/pub/linux.conf.au/2007/video/talks/220.ogg
(about 24 mins into the video)
http://mirror.linux.org.au/pub/linux.conf.au/2007/video/talks/220.pdf
(as well as page 49 in the slideshow pdf file)
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Re: Icon theme for ubuntu
On Wed, 2007-11-21 at 08:13 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: On Wed, 2007-11-21 at 13:39 +0100, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote: I think it's not hard to create professional looking icon theme. Try Echo with Infinity theme - this is proffesional? I don't think so. If it is not hard, why do you do it and come back when you have something to show ? yum install tango-icon-theme, there's something to show. Shall I start filing bugs on all the components in Fedora that currently does not accept an easy theme change such as rhgb, gdm, anaconda and so on (preferredly something like replacing the fedora-artwork package or a similar option). I believe that was the proposed solution we got from the art team the last time, yet no work has gone into enabling said choice of the user. A choice which will be needed since echo has poor accessibility - However this was claimed as not being a target (a complete understandable and acceptable design decision if it wasn't for the fact that the aim is to be our default iconset), despite the rest of the distro aiming for good defaults for handicapped people. Advancements such as PolicyKit are being integrate which will enable using a screen reader on applications which would normally not work, a specific goal on moral grounds as pointed out by davidz in his linux.conf.au 2007 talk Gluing a desktop and a kernel together[1]. Why should our artwork go against such a goal, being handicapped myself and having worked extensively which people suffering from a wide range impairments I can honestly say this group of users have very little choice currently not to mention they are tied to proprietary platforms. Fedora has a clear market opening if we want it, furthermore with laws being the way they are in most countries we cannot be used in government deployments unless we are accessible (Section 508 in the US e.g.). I have mainly been a pain about this because I think it's a moral obligation to ensure that everyone has the option to use Fedora and I believe the default should strive for a mix of good looks and good accessibility - Tango has that and it has good adoption upstream (OpenOffice, GIMP, Jokosher.. many projects default to using Tango icons). The only way to offer Echo, Tango and everything else which is on the table would be to easily allow theme changes for the entire system, not just session icons and select a sensible default - this work has not been done, seeing as the artwork team wants Echo and originally offered this solution I assumed they would be filing the bugs - this however does not seem to be the case. This is not about my personal opinion on the look of Echo, it's about being able to offer the choice of freedom to a group of people who currently has none and expanding our potential userbase. Untill you have seen the change of life quality the ability to communicate and work does to a person who is paralysed from the neck down, I doubt anyone will truly understand. I happen to have seen this, an accessible computer gave this person the option to work 10-15 hours a week - the change in his life cannot be expressed. I would like to see us offer that without the hefty pricetag and exclusion from common applications they currently have. I would like this kind of profound change to be part of what we help give to the world. I think it starts with addressing the most widespread impairments.. eye sight (degraded eye sight, color blindness, etc.). Much of that can be done with good defaults, some requires the option of having e.g. high contrast icons (colorblindness can now been aided by compiz plugins - I'm unsure of the current state of tie in to the accessibility settings). Additionally an option to change the system unified look would make branding for special deployment as well as spins much nicer. Thank you for your time, David Nielsen [1] http://mirror.linux.org.au/pub/linux.conf.au/2007/video/talks/220.ogg (about 24 mins into the video) http://mirror.linux.org.au/pub/linux.conf.au/2007/video/talks/220.pdf (as well as page 49 in the slideshow pdf file) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Icon theme for ubuntu
A possible suggestion, why not making a spin release of Fedora that focuses on people who have some disabilities? Luya ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Icon theme for ubuntu
ons, 21 11 2007 kl. 12:18 -0800, skrev Luya Tshimbalanga: A possible suggestion, why not making a spin release of Fedora that focuses on people who have some disabilities? Again, we have to support this to get in government deployments, which means it needs to be tested. This generally means enabled by default to get good coverage - not to mention that certain QA apps require the AT-SPI framework to work and running with them enabled has proven a great way to find obscure crashers. I believe we currently do not enable it by default purely because it tends to really encourage applications to die.. lots of work to make Fedora great for handicapped people of all shapes and sizes, icons and simple eyesight is one we can fix now, without degrading the look and feel for which Fedora has become known and praised. For some things you could do a special spin, like my paralysed friend might benefit from a Fedora that comes with his work apps, dasher and such. However for the majority, having it be adjustable is a good choice, say you have a company this means just setting the profiles up to fit the employees with sight problems using sabayon - a some what simpler and neater solution. When talking icons and themes, I doubt that is the best reason in the world to create an entire spin. The new gdm e.g. also includes better support for a11y, it seems to me that we are moving towards supporting this by default, at the very least Red Hat who has government contracts will need to do it, why shouldn't Fedora benefit and be a good choice for the impaired? It will mean a lot of work but really it should just be a choice of configuration to opt-out. Overall doing this will mean longterm a less buggy Fedora with a better experience for all, and naturally the option of opt-out as simple as clicking the disable assistance tick box and restarting the session. All I ask is that the artwork by default follow suit, Echo might very well seem like an appealing choice to some and I fully support there being an easy option to theme the entire OS.. it's user freedom, not to mention a damn cool feature if we can make it work (OpenOffice and Firefox spring to mind as hard applications to get good coverage of for all icon themes - I hear FF3 has a patch to use the stock icons from the session, hopefully OOo will eventually go down the same path). Spins are not the hammer that solves all problems - it certainly does not solve the problem in question on all counts. Also what sort of message do we send to handicapped people by making them second class citizens by default? - David signature.asc Description: Dette er en digitalt underskrevet brevdel ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Usability - SIG, Spin, Echo icons [was Re: Icon theme for ubuntu]
On Wed, 2007-11-21 at 21:54 +0100, Rahul Sundaram wrote: David Nielsen wrote: Shall I start filing bugs on all the components in Fedora that currently does not accept an easy theme change such as rhgb, gdm, anaconda and so on (preferredly something like replacing the fedora-artwork package or a similar option). I believe that was the proposed solution we got from the art team the last time, yet no work has gone into enabling said choice of the user. generic-logos package does help. Besides if you have things that you want to file bugs against including any issues you have in Echo, just do that instead. From all the long rants, I can't figure out the specific details involved. Rahul Certainly, I think, David, if you know about issues with Echo usability why not point them out? I think we should take a look at it too a reach some consensus between our desires and usability, it is completely useless to make a icon theme which someone, e.g. colourblind people, will have problems using it. I encourage everyone to use same hue for borders so that the shapes would be easily distinguishable even if only used without colours (i.e. grey), for one. It is probably not enough, but it certainly makes them more usable. As for the suggested spin, I think it is a good idea and I see reasons for it. Yes, surely all the usability features should be available in the classical spins as well, but we don't need to enable all of them by default. Especially the artwork could be optimised specially for people with disabilities and enabled on such a spin. BTW. is there a SIG for usability? As you say, we (Fedora Project) care about usability but the applications does not support it as we'd like, so it would be good to coordinate our efforts to improve the situation. Martin ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Icon theme for ubuntu
On Wed, 2007-11-21 at 23:03 +0100, David Nielsen wrote: Okay since you seem to think I rant I'll do an itemed list, sound good? 1) From previous debates on the list, Echo specifically does not target being accessible - that is perfectly okay but it makes it a less appealing choice as the new default. It does not specifically target it, but we do care about it nonetheless. You seems to have better info about accessibility and people with disabilities than we have, you can at least say what would you expect from us. The Echo styling guidelines are still not set in stone. 2) Originally the solution proposed was making it easier to replace the entire set of artwork for all the distro - however I believe we should have good defaults on top of this solution.[1] +1 3) Decisions like targetting a11y by default should be set as a common goal (even if an undeclared one right now AFAIK), thus we should all take it into serious consideration. I'm some what saddened that the artwork team does not appear to take this group of people in account when selecting defaults. We're doing our best, but we need to please as much people as possible. The Echo theme was originally started by Diana, who was a redhat employee, we're taken over it later in the process and we are still learning. Suggestions are welcome. 4) Filing bugs against Echo is pointless on this issue since the design specifically excludes accessibility concerns. The same goes for the occasionally odd use of emblems[2] No, it's not. We does not explicitly say anywhere that we exclude accessibility concerns and while it is not our primary goal, filling bugs (preferably on hosted.fp.org) against the worst cases might help. The emblems as they are now are buggy and we need to fix their usage in the future. Basically, we would use pluses for symbolising the action of creating/adding something new and stars for the state of being something new or incoming. The blue stars you see currently in many Echo icons should be all replaced with pluses. 5) What looks good is subjective, what works for people with sight impairments is at least something we can take into consideration[3] +1 6) Making a spin specially for handicapped people is a wrong solution and gives the impression that handicapped people are second class citizens in Fedora. Opt-out is a better option, especially given the many untested codepaths it will create to default to off and focusing QA on that. This is not however an artwork decision, it was merely brought up and as such deserved an answer. I don't think that making an optimised spin for handicapped people gives the impression that they are second class. Does the gamers spin, or developers spin makes gamers and developers seconds class? No. I think the contrary. But as I noted in one of my previous mails, it is more or less to have the right things enabled by default, not just about having choice. But we need the choice first, and I agree with you that it should be worked on (but this concern is better discussed on the -devel list). Martin - David [1] I'll file bugs against components I know are hard to theme currently, I merely assumed this was an artwork team task since they provided the suggestion in the first place so I was under the impression this was already done. [2] There seems to be mixed use of symbols to indicate new and add, I filed a bug once upon a time on this and was told this was also by design. [3] Naturally we can't fix all the problems with one set but we can select a good set of defaults to hit the greatest common benefactor, GNOME already ships high contrast themes and other a11y icon themes for many cases that do not fit in the GCB catagory. ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Usability - SIG, Spin, Echo icons [was Re: Icon theme for ubuntu]
ons, 21 11 2007 kl. 22:31 +0100, skrev Martin Sourada: I think, David, if you know about issues with Echo usability why not point them out? I think we should take a look at it too a reach some consensus between our desires and usability, it is completely useless to make a icon theme which someone, e.g. colourblind people, will have problems using it. I encourage everyone to use same hue for borders so that the shapes would be easily distinguishable even if only used without colours (i.e. grey), for one. It is probably not enough, but it certainly makes them more usable. I tried that in the past, with less than succesful outcome. Colorblind issues however should likely be solved by the compiz plugins, that is free for you guys and solves the problem (hopefully) for the 3 major kinds of colorblindness without having to have 3 additional iconsets differing only in color scheme. I'm unsure if there'll be issues with shape and the appearance of the icons (clashing colors e.g.) but as part of the testing of any theme it might be nice to run a real world desktop image through VisCheck[1]. Likewise we should figure out a way to simulate common vision impairments, people with slightly blurred vision, basically people who need glasses but don't wear them. I'm unsure of any research or products being available to aid in this kind of testing - I suspect we could apply a slight blur filter in gimp to get an idea of how washed out the desktop and applications look. Echo has no defined shape, in my limited testing people with poor eyesight seem to have great difficulty reading information from icons that lack a strong outline. For those users, and there are a lot sadly, the kind of look Tango has seems to yield better results. I'll try to get more test subjects to play with my laptop with the different iconsets to get more input. Basically though, Echo is not designed with this in mind and I suspect reworking Echo would be a lot of work. Aside that I have noticed that emblem use is somewhat odd, you seem to use both + and * to indicate new and add (last time I checked - this might have changed). I filed a bug against this and was basically told there was a reason but not given said reason. I'd love to hear why this kind of confusion is preferable to selecting a standard akin to what Tango has done. As for the suggested spin, I think it is a good idea and I see reasons for it. Yes, surely all the usability features should be available in the classical spins as well, but we don't need to enable all of them by default. Especially the artwork could be optimised specially for people with disabilities and enabled on such a spin. BTW. is there a SIG for usability? As you say, we (Fedora Project) care about usability but the applications does not support it as we'd like, so it would be good to coordinate our efforts to improve the situation. I fundamentally disagree with making handicapped people second class citizens. It's perfectly simple to opt-out, at-spi doesn't draw many ressources and we need it for section 508 compliance. It makes more sense to enable it by default and make the cases like colorblindness a simple configuration option in the a11y capplet that would enable the compiz plugin and configure it for the sight issue. Similar with more extreme sight requirements like high contrast, we can provide it in the theme capplet. The main problem here is that not all of our applications obey the session settings, not to mention there's no option to make it apply to the system. For a single user system, being able to read the test and see the icons even at boot up would be the desirable long term goal. I'd rather work towards fixing those problems and selecting a good default - making a specific spin just for every combination of a11y friendly artwork seems excessive, for special cases it's definitely a good option though, like special tool requirements. I am unaware of the existance of an a11y SIG but usability was handled on the desktop-devel list way back in the day and Daniel Durand I think lead up a SIG on the subject. I think ultimately though that the board (or who ever makes technical decisions like this, there are so many acronyms and groups I get confused as to who does what) should make the decision if accessibility is an overall longterm goal to be prioritised in Fedora or not - then the SIGs can take it into consideration. I will naturally be happy to help with testing. Given time to schedule testing it's likely I can arrange to get any such testing done on demand, I'm fortunate enough to have good relations with a company who exclusively hire handicapped people so we should be well covered in terms of impairments. The access is likely going to be timelimited though, these people suffer and I'd like to not put them through to much so we definitely need to setup some kind of test protocol - this however is not really an artwork issue, we can test most poor sight via simulation. [1]
Re: Usability - SIG, Spin, Echo icons [was Re: Icon theme for ubuntu]
tor, 22 11 2007 kl. 00:37 +0100, skrev Martin Sourada: On Wed, 2007-11-21 at 23:40 +0100, David Nielsen wrote: [1] http://www.vischeck.com/vischeck/ Thanks for the link, to have some material to talk about, I've taken some of the newer Echo icons (all the 'category' icons [1] are done that way, and more or less finished) and run through the filters. I don't see any big issues with them, what do you think? I attach the original, plus the processed images, that are sadly saved in jpeg which does not give the best results... Generally, iso prespective make the icons look smaller, please remember that at this size both detail level and shape affects how easily you can utilize the brains wonderful pattern recognition abilities. I would strip the detail level down as much as possible and go for head on prespective. I would wager that the icons we display most often would be menu ones so they really deserve that extra attention and love. Another consideration with regards to prespective is that orientation matters in preception of size, twisted left seems smaller than twisted right because you appear to show off less surface area. The human brain is a strange beast. Add/Remove Software is very good, easy to spot, good shape use, colors work well across the colorblindness spectrum and it's head on prespective. A really good icon. The graphics icon is very hard to make out. I cannot I have to admit figure out what the office icon is suppose to look like, it does however seem to get better when the colorblindness filters are applied. Also notice how well the shape works for recognition for the games icon, low level of detail - despite even appearing small due to the iso prespective usage. It's also the only one to have a defined outline which really helps make the icon appear crisp and easy to recognize. This makes it work really well in every filter applied and I can make it out without my glasses on even from around 1m away. Where sexy and usable clashes is really the prespective, don't do iso unless at desktop icon size or above, you can candy it up with detail as size increases. Jimmac has a great article on his blog regarding the problems surrounding sizes and scaling icons[1]. [1] http://jimmac.musichall.cz/log/?p=177 signature.asc Description: Dette er en digitalt underskrevet brevdel ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
