Re: Artwork conversations
Nicu Buculei wrote: I dont consider it a step back. In both cases the concepts was drawn and worked up a team and Diana Fong did the final work. The difference here might that Mola talked over IRC while John Baer didnt. That's just different working styles and prefered modes of interaction. OK, so using unarchived and closed channels is preferred. We dont have artificially invent issues. It is a completely public channel. Archives are available if you want them. Rahul ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Artwork conversations
Nicu Buculei wrote: And at the end, here is what I see as a proof of lack of goodwill: have a look at http://www.isity.net/blog/?p=60 Scroll down to the credit section. Do you notice there a familiar name? Maybe John Baer who came up with the idea? Me neither... FYI, the credit is for the use of pictures. Diana did give credit to John Baer on http://www.isity.net/blog/?p=57 Hope that clarification helps. -- ¢D0 ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Artwork conversations
The quality criteria is so subjective that is just too easy to use is as a strawman. Ah, and what the hell then entitles you to claim that FC6 has had the best artwork of all Fedora releases? In my opinion, FC6 artwork already showed first signs of sloppyness. Only think of the installer blender image which used the glass ball when the installed distribution used a reflective one. I have the impression that the 3-4 persons contributing the majority of postings to this list think of themselves as being representative of the user community which is obviously wrong. There has been no representative vote on the final theme. A first tentative one showed Borealis and Flying high on par. Then there was a second one whose only subject was the Flying high theme, leaving no other choice to the voters, although there have been some clear caveats on this list regarding Flying High. Under these circumstances, I do prefer a single qualified individual [DF] who steers the whole process in a proven manner than a small group hijacking artwork development. Everybody is welcome to submit suggestions, and John has come up with some nice ideas. However, the number of postings or submissions of the interested persons can by no means establish any kind of prerogative with respect to the final result. -- Der GMX SmartSurfer hilft bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten zu sparen! Ideal für Modem und ISDN: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/smartsurfer ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Artwork conversations
Joachim Frieben wrote: The quality criteria is so subjective that is just too easy to use is as a strawman. Ah, and what the hell then entitles you to claim that FC6 has had the best artwork of all Fedora releases? In my opinion, FC6 artwork already showed first signs of sloppyness. Only think of the installer blender image which used the glass ball when the installed distribution used a reflective one. I was replying to a post from Rahul where he stated Fedora Core 6 artwork turned out to be even better I have the impression that the 3-4 persons contributing the majority of postings to this list think of themselves as being representative of the user community which is obviously wrong. There has been no representative vote on the final theme. A first tentative one showed Borealis and Flying high on par. Then there was a second one whose only subject was the Flying high theme, leaving no other choice to the voters, although there have been some clear caveats on this list regarding Flying High. Votes? There was no voting process, the voting on fedoraforum.org was informal. Read this: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/FC7Themes There is no formal voting process for themes right now. You vote with your time and effort! So if you really like a theme idea, chip in and help refine it! For our next round (round 3), we'll take stock of how the themes have evolved and try to figure out which ones we need to choose between if there is no clear standout candidate. Under these circumstances, I do prefer a single qualified individual [DF] who steers the whole process in a proven manner than a small group hijacking artwork development. Everybody is welcome to submit suggestions, and John has come up with some nice ideas. However, the number of postings or submissions of the interested persons can by no means establish any kind of prerogative with respect to the final result. Read again the wiki page I pointed you above. The page was written by the founder of the Art project, was discussed on the list and we had consensus about it. So what are you saying about hijacking? -- nicu Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Artwork conversations
Rahul Sundaram wrote: Nicu Buculei wrote: I dont consider it a step back. In both cases the concepts was drawn and worked up a team and Diana Fong did the final work. The difference here might that Mola talked over IRC while John Baer didnt. That's just different working styles and prefered modes of interaction. OK, so using unarchived and closed channels is preferred. We dont have artificially invent issues. It is a completely public channel. Archives are available if you want them. Actually, this is a little more than artificially invented issue. The problem with IRC is that conversations take place in real time. This is a problem for projects that may have particepants in different parts of the world with different time zones. Regards Uno Engborg ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Artwork conversations
Uno Engborg wrote: Rahul Sundaram wrote: Nicu Buculei wrote: I dont consider it a step back. In both cases the concepts was drawn and worked up a team and Diana Fong did the final work. The difference here might that Mola talked over IRC while John Baer didnt. That's just different working styles and prefered modes of interaction. OK, so using unarchived and closed channels is preferred. We dont have artificially invent issues. It is a completely public channel. Archives are available if you want them. Actually, this is a little more than artificially invented issue. The problem with IRC is that conversations take place in real time. This is a problem for projects that may have particepants in different parts of the world with different time zones. Sure but that is a completely different issue which in no way makes the channel closed. It is not hard to setup bots which automatically archives all the conversations in the channel. I suspect there might already be public services which do just that. Rahul ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Artwork conversations
Rahul Sundaram wrote: Uno Engborg wrote: Rahul Sundaram wrote: Nicu Buculei wrote: I dont consider it a step back. In both cases the concepts was drawn and worked up a team and Diana Fong did the final work. The difference here might that Mola talked over IRC while John Baer didnt. That's just different working styles and prefered modes of interaction. OK, so using unarchived and closed channels is preferred. We dont have artificially invent issues. It is a completely public channel. Archives are available if you want them. Actually, this is a little more than artificially invented issue. The problem with IRC is that conversations take place in real time. This is a problem for projects that may have particepants in different parts of the world with different time zones. Sure but that is a completely different issue which in no way makes the channel closed. It is not hard to setup bots which automatically archives all the conversations in the channel. I suspect there might already be public services which do just that. Archives makes the channel open to see, but in a community project it must also be open to participate even if you happen to be in another time zone. I doubt very much that people using IRC will start their work day by scanning the backlog of IRC messages that have taken place during the night, answers them and then wait to the next day for their answer. /uno ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Artwork conversations
Hi, Apologies for the long post but this touches a broader topic. So be patient and you will reach the see the light or at the end of my email. Are we ready? Good. I had a opportunity to talk to Diana Fong during FUDCon Boston 2007 after she came up to talk to me about my perspectives and what I was trying to accomplish with the mail I send a few weeks back[1]. On hindsight that was probably not clear to everyone involved and might have been high sounding. So a longer clarification and some views points here. The conversation we had went on for over an hour about Fedora Artwork project in general and specifically about getting a larger number of contributors involved from the community, the process and the quality that we need to maintain. Diana Fong was worried about the quality of the artwork being produced but didnt work to throw off people from doing the work. I was highlighting that the conversations usually is happening on IRC or blogs which the people here in mailing lists are either not aware of or not participation due to differences in time zones and the process as being important as much as the quality of the work being produced. I suggested that if we cant really collaborate on every step, she can at the moment be transparent about her working methodology and thoughts would be a good first step. I think her recent series of blogs The Voodoo That I Do [2] is effective in that and should be appreciated. Not everyone knows equally well to work in the community. Unlike say packaging where the line of quality vs community participation is tilter in favor of the latter, I believe in artwork it should be the former that is given a higher priority. We should not sacrifice the good results and throw off skilled contributions just because they or we havent yet been able to communicate well with the community. Having said that, here is more details to consider. When the original effort to have a focus on better look and feel was done by Diana Fong for Fedora Core 5, it was entirely a single person's effort. Folks started noticing especially since the artwork happened to be rather in the face compared to the traditional and conservative artwork which we had in the past. I thought that went pretty good overall even though obviously not everyone liked the artwork. It was controversial enough to be talked about inside and external to the Fedora community. Reviews invariably pointed it out in a positive manner. It was also a nod to the idea that Fedora is approachable to everyone and not just the enthusiasts. Fedora Core 6 artwork turned out to be even better with the concepts drawn by Maureen Duffy, the 3D blender work done Mola and the final polishing from Diana Fong. We managed to work as a team, incorporate feedback from various circles such as the artwork being too dark initially etc. Other than the long term discussions about the trademark protection required in the logo vs the need for creativity, I think there is agreement that the quality of the artwork in general has been good to exceptional. What was not defined and to some extend still causing confusion [3] is the process. We had to rush through kind of in the last minute with Fedora Core 6 and here we are now worrying whether we can do artwork effectively as a community today. I would say that is pretty difficult and we would have to learn by trial and error a few things and I have some ideas that could help here. 1) Expect to jump through hurdles : This shouldnt need much explanation but pretty much everytime we have initiated new projects, there has been periods of confusion and general mess before we started being effective. It is pretty much a established trend that I would be surprised we had it all figured out right from the start anywhere. It happened with with Fedora in general. Fedora Extras, Fedora Documentation and now with Fedora Ambassadors and Artwork projects but artwork is rather unique on its own for a number of reasons. It is very subjective, people tend to take criticisms rather personally. We are reluctant to tell people that their artwork is crappy because we dont want to give off the impression that we arent appreciating their interest or contributions in general and more important we dont have a established history of caring about good look and feel and creating artwork via the community in general. Every time we had good artwork anywhere in the Free software world, it has been done through single individuals or by a small focused team. Tiger in GNOME. Crystal SVG icons in KDE or closer to home Fedora Artwork in previous releases. The other end happens to be troublesome [4]. Some would argue that this is indeed true of Free software development in general but I wont go into that now. In general, we will figure out the process and if we can make it work over time. We might realise sometime later that this just isnt working and shut it down
Re: Artwork conversations
Rahul, Thank you for responding to this thread. I hope things went well at FUDCon Boston. Apologies for the long post but this touches a broader topic. +1 Let me state the problem here is not Diana, the problem here is Fedora. There was never any question in my mind of Diana's skill but Diana is not the only person on the planet capable of producing polished Fedora art. IMO one very talented artist and contributor named Máirín Duffy was pushed to the side and there are others. If Fedora is going to be open source then Fedora needs to embrace open source. The fact Diana was crafting Fedora final artwork off line with no communication to the team is not open source. It has nothing to do with polish or talent and has everything to do with equality, integrity, inclusion, and teamwork. I read the slashdot article on Ubuntu and don't attempt to legitimize Fedora's mistakes with theirs. IMO Mark Shuttleworth does open source better than anyone and that is why Ubuntu is so popular, but on this issue he got it completely wrong. If Mark had the time and skill I believe he would craft the artwork of Ubuntu as the Ubuntu art team had some of the best talent available. Go to their wiki today and search on art. I only see one “feisty” page. Go to launchpad and search on art or “feisty”. Compare that with the effort of “dapper”. These are not the foot steps Fedora wants to follow. Nobody knows all the pieces of the puzzle. We are bound to have intermediate failures. +1 Ok, so how do you make it work? Work as a team : Expect to receive criticism, others to take your work and come up with variations or polish it better +1 1. First and foremost Fedora has to decide to practice what it preaches. If Diana is not on our team and we are not on hers, this will never work. Use the tools of love, equality, integrity, inclusion, and teamwork to empower team members. I believe we are all mature enough to know our limits but that does not mean we can not contribute in a meaningful way. If the bar has to be high, define clearly what high means. 2. Everyone needs to be working with the same information. Although Diana's artwork guide was very helpful I noticed her artwork does not conform to the guide. I'm not saying her art won't work but plainly things changed and we were not kept in the loop. This is not a talent issue this is a Fedora's commitment to the team issue. 3. Publish a schedule which clearly defines what is due and when. The Ubuntu schedule (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeistyReleaseSchedule) notes the deadlines for artwork as well as upstream projects. IMO this can be vastly improved but it is way more than what we were given. At this moment I honestly do not know when artwork will make it into the mix. I'm guessing RC2 or RC3? Not only should Fedora be able to provide us with a release schedule for version 7, but a schedule for version 8. I realize things change but the process is the same. Finally Rahul here are the disappointments. 1. It is obvious the intent from the very beginning was to have Diana produce the final artwork. Why wasn't that stated plainly and clearly? Will that always be the case? What is the intent for “echo”? What about artwork for the doc team? 2. I do not know what tools Diana uses to create her images but many professional artists use Adobe on Apple or similar product on Windows. I have had this discussion with Diana and agree it's not the end of the world if the images for Fedora come from one of these platforms, but wouldn't it be nice if Fedora made a statement with it's head held high and showed the world what can be done with open source software. The Team said yes, what does Fedora say? So there you have it Rahul. The problem has little to do with artwork and everything to do with process. John ___ Fedora-art-list mailing list Fedora-art-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-art-list
Re: Artwork conversations
John Baer wrote:. If Fedora is going to be open source then Fedora needs to embrace open source. The fact Diana was crafting Fedora final artwork off line with no communication to the team is not open source. It has nothing to do with polish or talent and has everything to do with equality, integrity, inclusion, and teamwork. Things definitely need to improve there. I read the slashdot article on Ubuntu and don't attempt to legitimize Fedora's mistakes with theirs. IMO Mark Shuttleworth does open source better than anyone and that is why Ubuntu is so popular, but on this issue he got it completely wrong. If Mark had the time and skill I believe he would craft the artwork of Ubuntu as the Ubuntu art team had some of the best talent available. Go to their wiki today and search on art. I only see one “feisty” page. Go to launchpad and search on art or “feisty”. Compare that with the effort of “dapper”. These are not the foot steps Fedora wants to follow. I wouldnt calling installing proprietary drivers by default and building proprietary infrastructure as doing open source better than anyone else. Popularity has usually nothing in common with principles. The example was that there are similarities elsewhere in the Linux distribution world and such issues are not unique to Fedora. It is not a justification, otherwise everybody would be repeating the same mistakes but one of the moments where we need to take a step back and look at the big picture. Ok, so how do you make it work? Being more explicit about the process and expectations would make it better. The less we have to assume and make guesses, the better it is. Use the tools of love, equality, integrity, inclusion, and teamwork to empower team members. I believe we are all mature enough to know our limits but that does not mean we can not contribute in a meaningful way. If the bar has to be high, define clearly what high means. I would doubt we can clearly define in black and white terms at what point we can draw that line but I understand your point neverthless. Ask questions. Get answers before you spend time on something. Over a few releases, we would have enough answers and understanding on how things work. 2. Everyone needs to be working with the same information. Although Diana's artwork guide was very helpful I noticed her artwork does not conform to the guide. I'm not saying her art won't work but plainly things changed and we were not kept in the loop. This is not a talent issue this is a Fedora's commitment to the team issue. If there are variations from the guide, point them out. Either the guidelines or the artwork would need to be fixed in that case. 3. Publish a schedule which clearly defines what is due and when. The Ubuntu schedule (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeistyReleaseSchedule) notes the deadlines for artwork as well as upstream projects. IMO this can be vastly improved but it is way more than what we were given. At this moment I honestly do not know when artwork will make it into the mix. I'm guessing RC2 or RC3? Our schedule is described in http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/7/. My expectation would be the first cut in Test 2 for artwork and more polish by Test 3. Atleast that is what I suggested when the discussions happened earlier. Not only should Fedora be able to provide us with a release schedule for version 7, but a schedule for version 8. I realize things change but the process is the same. No. We dont intend to provide release schedules for the next release before the current release is done. It depends on each other and we dont really plan for two releases at a time. Finally Rahul here are the disappointments. 1. It is obvious the intent from the very beginning was to have Diana produce the final artwork. Why wasn't that stated plainly and clearly? ... because that might not have been the intent? What is obvious is that you spend time on doing things with some expectations which could have easily been avoided. That is a pretty big screwup on leadership. Apologies for that. Will that always be the case? I would say we need to determine that based on the quality and polish of the artwork produced. It the community can produce the artwork that can directly get into the distribution, I see no reason to stop that. What is the intent for “echo”? It has been discussed in the list extensively. The intent is to provide more icons and see if it can be set as the default for the general release if it works out well. What about artwork for the doc team? What about them? 2. I do not know what tools Diana uses to create her images but many professional artists use Adobe on Apple or similar product on Windows. I have had this discussion with Diana and agree it's not the end of the world if the images for Fedora come from one of these platforms, but wouldn't it be nice if Fedora made a statement with it's head held high and showed the world what can be
