Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa

[Darcy James Argue]

On 20 Jun 2008, at 3:45 PM, John Howell wrote:

Very much so, because it appears to be some programmer's idea and is  
not standard notation (as you seem to have discovered).


It's standard notation *now*. It's been standard notation for years  
(certainly predating Finale). It's compact, functional, and  
unambiguous. There's nothing wrong with it in the slightest, other  
than "Oh no, it's slightly different from what I grew up with."


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY




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Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa

[jd IMAP]

On Jun 20, 2008, at 2:51 PM, Christopher Smith wrote:


On Jun 20, 2008, at 1:56 PM, A-NO-NE Music wrote:


Oh, c'mon!  They are not the same!
C4 means no 5th, while C sus4 means it contains 5th.


Not in my neck of the woods!


All the more reason to use a more universal symbol.


Fair enough, but not an easy task, going back to the left/right coast  
sentiment.


To that end, how about C(4)?

Most of my shorthand with chord symbols comes from my hand copying  
days in the early 80s, way before computers and music notation  
programs.  Old habits die hard.  sus4, add9, etc.  I was doing a  
sh*tload of those kind of charts then and hated writing out all that  
chord verbage.  I started writing C(9) instead of Cadd9 and it not  
only appeased my basic sense of impatience, the musicians I worked  
with instantly gravitated towards it, read it without any hesitation  
whatsoever, and the game was on.   C5 was very common and the idea  
came from a guitar player when we were rehearsing.  So C4 for me was a  
natural gravitation.


But, you can't please everyone.


***
J D  Thomas
ThomaStudios
West Linn  OR
www.thomastudios.com


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Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa

[John Howell]

At 1:23 PM -0500 6/20/08, Paul Hayden wrote:
I quit using the ottava bassa sign (8vb) _under_ notes several years 
ago when I read (in Read's book and probably on this list) that the 
normal octave sign (8va) should be used. I noticed that FinMac08b 
uses 8vb by default when you use the Smart Shapes octave symbol 
(8va) below notes. (I reset the 8vb symbol so that 8va shows in the 
Smart Shape Options window.)


1. Do you think 8vb under notes looks amateurish?


Very much so, because it appears to be some programmer's idea and is 
not standard notation (as you seem to have discovered).  So is the 
term "tuplets," of course, but at least that isn't something that 
goes on the page.


John


--
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
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[Finale] Two 2008a oddities connected to playback

[Williams, Jim]

Hi, everyone...
 
WinFin 08a, XP Pro...
 
I'm composing as I go and playing back frequently, using both the transport bar 
and spacebar-click.
 
Two odd things are happening:
 
1. Sometimes after a playback, 2008a partially stops responding to the mouse. 
Clicking on a tool gives no response, but I can trigger playback on the 
transport bar. Clicking on the speedy entry tool opens the speedy frame in the 
upper left, but I cannot move it.
 
2. Sometimes when using spacebar-click playbeck, 2008a will NOT stop playing 
back. I can click on the score a million times but it will not quit.
(Question: does hitting the play button of the transport during spacebar 
playback terminally confuse Finale??)
 
Anyone get either/both of these? Anyone have a solution? I did a reinstall of 
2008 and the 08a updater this afternoon, but it didn't help. Also tried 
trashiung the .INI file. No help.
 
Any ideas??
 
Thanx...
Jim

 
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Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa

[jd IMAP]

C4 = CFG (from the bottom up).

It has worked every time in every instance I've used it.

Now that you have pointed to the Gibraltar and Friends fakebook, we  
have a dichotomy.  So what else is new in the world of music notation.


BTW, you're right when I wrote " have never seen or heard of a C4  
interpreted as C-F-Bb.  I've used that chord symbol thousands upon  
thousands of times and not once was it misinterpreted.  At least by  
pros. Beyond that, I don't speculate".  I was smiling, or smirking as  
the case may be.  I neglected to illustrate that.  ; > )


***
J D  Thomas
ThomaStudios
West Linn  OR
www.thomastudios.com




On Jun 20, 2008, at 2:14 PM, Christopher Smith wrote:

What exactly do you understand C4 to mean, then? It is different  
from  what I thought, apparently, so even more reason to avoid it.


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Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa

[Christopher Smith]

On Jun 20, 2008, at 7:20 PM, John Howell wrote:


At 4:01 PM -0400 6/20/08, Christopher Smith wrote:


Taking "8vb" to mean "ottava bassa" is so common nowadays as to  
eclipse the original usage. I would put 8va above and 8vb below  
wherever space permits, though.


I don't expect to convince anyone, but doesn't that assume that  
everyone copying music is using one of the computer engraving  
programs that have adopted the practice?  That's like assuming that  
everyone has a computer, or a cell phone, or an iPod.  They  
don't!!! Lots of people do.  Since I teach college students, lots  
of people whom I know do.  But everyone?  No way!


Umm, no, I did it that way when I was using pen and ink, too. Finale  
didn't invent the practice; it was current for most the second half  
of the 20th century, as far as I can make out. Not everyone used it,  
but it WAS used, and I find it very clear and unambiguous.


Christopher



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Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa

[Andrew Stiller]

Boy,  things got busy all  of a sudden!

On Jun 20, 2008, at 2:23 PM, Paul Hayden wrote:

I quit using the ottava bassa sign (8vb) _under_ notes several years 
ago when I read (in Read's book and probably on this list) that the 
normal octave sign (8va) should be used.


That usage is very old-fashioned and IMO no  longer correct. The rule 
is intimately connected to another rule--now abandoned for some 50 
years--that held that "8va" should appear only above a treble staff 
(meaning an octave up) or below a bass staff (meaning an octave down). 
Strains in this custom began to appear when composers began writing 
piano music that required frequent clef changes in both hands. For most 
of the 20th c. , the standard and most clear notation *among classical 
composers* has been to write "8va" above any staff regardless of clef, 
and to write "8va bassa" (never "basso") below any staff regardless of 
clef. If you follow the old rule and simply write "8va" below a staff, 
it is bound to cause at least some confusion because it has become 
important always to indicate if the octave transition is up  or down.


 I noticed that FinMac08b uses 8vb by default when you use the Smart 
Shapes octave symbol (8va) below notes. (I reset the 8vb symbol so 
that 8va shows in the Smart Shape Options window.)


I had never seen or heard of "8vb" until I started using Finale in 
1991. Until very recently it has been a strictly jazz/Broadway usage, 
and is the default in Finale because the original developers of the 
program came from the jazz world.


I  was surprised to learn from this thread that it goes back as far as 
1970, for right up to the end of the 20th c. it had no presence in the 
classical world  at all.


The need for a compact octave-down symbol (as opposed to the standard 
"8va bassa") has been felt for quite some time now, and various 
streamlined versions have been used by various classical composers for 
the past half century or more; I particularly like Messiaen's plain "8" 
for up and "8ba" for down.


Anyway, "8vb" has started showing  up in new classical scores precisely 
because it is the default  in Finale! It is just one of a great many 
things that are changing in the notation of new music because they are 
particularly easy or particularly hard to do in Finale or Sibelius. 
Look, for example, at the profusion of musical graphics and unorthodox 
stems and noteheads used by classical composers in the 60s and 70s: 
these things are mostly gone in 21st century works, in large part 
because engraving programs find them difficult and arduous to handle.


Now, as to what the abbreviations actually mean. "8va" is indeed the 
Italian equivalent of "8th" and is used in that sense in all kinds of 
contexts, not just musical ones. Streamlined versions of "8va bassa" 
however often start with the  idea tha "8va" abbreviates not "ottaVA" 
but "ottaVa Alta"--which reflects its actual meaning in recent music. 
If "8va" abbreviates "ottava alta," then "8vb" quite logically must 
symbolize "ottava bassa," and it is important to realize that if you 
use "8vb" (or "8ba" or any other similarly constructed reform notation) 
you *cannot* use "8va" to signify anything but an octave *up*.



Andrew Stiller
Kallisti Music Press
http://www.kallistimusic.com/

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Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa

[John Howell]

At 4:01 PM -0400 6/20/08, Christopher Smith wrote:


Taking "8vb" to mean "ottava bassa" is so common nowadays as to 
eclipse the original usage. I would put 8va above and 8vb below 
wherever space permits, though.


I don't expect to convince anyone, but doesn't that assume that 
everyone copying music is using one of the computer engraving 
programs that have adopted the practice?  That's like assuming that 
everyone has a computer, or a cell phone, or an iPod.  They don't!!! 
Lots of people do.  Since I teach college students, lots of people 
whom I know do.  But everyone?  No way!


John


--
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa

[Christopher Smith]

On 20-Jun-08, at 2:23 PM, Paul Hayden wrote:

I quit using the ottava bassa sign (8vb) _under_ notes several  
years ago when I read (in Read's book and probably on this list)  
that the normal octave sign (8va) should be used. I noticed that  
FinMac08b uses 8vb by default when you use the Smart Shapes octave  
symbol (8va) below notes. (I reset the 8vb symbol so that 8va shows  
in the Smart Shape Options window.)


1. Do you think 8vb under notes looks amateurish?



No. With due respect to Read, the term "8va" these days is most often  
taken to mean "ottava alta" or octave higher (the real Italian  
notwithstanding.) Like "half=quarter" to mean "former half note  
equals new quarter, or half tempo",
the modern usage is more clear and less fussy than the traditional  
one. (in modern editions, of course!)


Taking "8vb" to mean "ottava bassa" is so common nowadays as to  
eclipse the original usage. I would put 8va above and 8vb below  
wherever space permits, though.



2. Do you normally use 8va and its dashed bracket line in Smart  
Shapes, or do you do it all manually with an Expression "8va" and  
then the dashed bracket tool in Smart Shapes?


The Smart Shape beginning with 8va is so useful in so many different  
ways that I would never resort to the old manual way, unless I was  
forced. In the manual method, the distance between the text and the  
line will never stay constant, as both are attached to beats, so if  
the measure changes size you will always have to nudge both items.  
The newer Smart Shape will always keep a constant alignment, no  
matter what happens to the measure.


I never have to adjust these in extracted parts any more. I have  
taken to entering a whole bunch of things using these hybrid Smart  
Shapes, like "fill.." "even eighths." "double time feel."  
and even "pocoapoco", though for dim poco a poco I actually  
have to enter TWO items (because I can't have FOUR divisions of text,  
only three.)


christopher


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RE: [Finale] Ottava bassa

[Owain Sutton]

> 
> jd IMAP wrote:
> > I like the 8vb for the octave lower rather than the 8va.  I 
> think it's
> > reactively clearer.  And I use it via Smart Shape since it 
> breaks systems.
> > 
> 
> But it's a bastardization of the original 8va which does not mean 
> "ottava alta" or any such thing.  It simply meant "ottava" or 
> "octave." 
>   Its placement above the music means an octave above, and 
> its placement 
> below the music means to play the music an octave below what 
> is written.
> 
> So to put a 'b' in place of the 'a' simply produces a nonsense 
> abbreviation of a non-existent word.
> 
> Would everybody understand it?  I doubt it.  Does everybody 
> understand 
> what '8va' means when placed beneath a row of notes?
> 
> 


I was about to respond to this in strong support of the clarity of
'8vb', but then checked against a piece I'd played yesterday, in which I
knew I'd seen such a marking.  (For reference - Lili Boulanger,
'Nocturne', ABRSM Grade 6 violin.  Cracking piece.)

And there it is in front of me.  '8va' in the bass.  Despite my
evidently abstract opinion that such a marking 'just looks wrong', I'd
misremembered it as '8vb'.  Hmmm.


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Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa

[Christopher Smith]

On Jun 20, 2008, at 5:24 PM, jd IMAP wrote:

I have never seen or heard of a C4 interpreted as C-F-Bb.  I've  
used that chord symbol thousands upon thousands of times and not  
once was it misinterpreted.  At least by pros. Beyond that, I don't  
speculate.




BTW, that would have been a nice sneer in our direction, if you  
hadn't typed it with a smile on your face, indicating it was a joke.


Christopher


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Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa

[Christopher Smith]

On Jun 20, 2008, at 6:01 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Or how 'bout the devil's head for a tritone?

ajr


Check this out for a huge laugh about this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhHAojVyeG0

or if the link doesn't work, go to youtube and search "kaamelott" and  
"the perfect fifth"


it's in French, subtitled in English, but the translation is not as  
funny as the original French.


"Ça me fait gerber!" is an example, which doesn't translate  
gracefully, AFAIK.



christopher


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Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa

[Christopher Smith]

On Jun 20, 2008, at 4:56 PM, A-NO-NE Music wrote:


jd IMAP / 08.6.20 / 4:31 PM wrote:


To me it's a lot like writing a C4 chord
symbol versus a Csus4.


Oh, c'mon!  They are not the same!
C4 means no 5th, while C sus4 means it contains 5th.

Besides, C4 is very dangerous!  Highly explosive.

I understand languages change, but that doesn't mean it is OK to be  
incorrect.






What exactly do you understand C4 to mean, then? It is different  
from  what I thought, apparently, so even more reason to avoid it.


I have used non-traditional chord symbols before, but I put an  
incipit at the top of the chart explaining it. Like when I have a  
piece that has a lot of Cadd9omit3, I use C2, but I don't expect  
everyone to know what it is, as it is non-traditional.


Christopher


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Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa

[arabushk]

Or how 'bout the devil's head for a tritone?

ajr

> I have never seen or heard of a C4 interpreted as C-F-Bb.  I've used
> that chord symbol thousands upon thousands of times and not once was
> it misinterpreted.  At least by pros. Beyond that, I don't speculate.
>
> Maybe it's a right vs left coast thing.  I still hate those triangles
> for major 7ths and the minus dash for minor 7ths.  Ugh.
>
> ***
> J D  Thomas
> ThomaStudios
> West Linn  OR
> www.thomastudios.com
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 20, 2008, at 2:09 PM, Christopher Smith wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jun 20, 2008, at 4:31 PM, jd IMAP wrote:
>>>
>>> To me it's a lot like writing a C4 chord symbol versus a Csus4.
>>> I've used both, prefer the former, and I've never had it questioned.
>>
>> I'm not disputing the original point, but this one. C4 in some
>> circles means a stack of 4ths up from C, so C, F, Bb, which is not
>> the same function as C,F,G.
>>
>> It is this that keeps me using the more unwieldy, but crystal clear,
>> Csus4.
>>
>> Christopher
>>
>>
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Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa

[Christopher Smith]

On Jun 20, 2008, at 5:24 PM, jd IMAP wrote:

I have never seen or heard of a C4 interpreted as C-F-Bb.  I've  
used that chord symbol thousands upon thousands of times and not  
once was it misinterpreted.  At least by pros. Beyond that, I don't  
speculate.


Maybe it's a right vs left coast thing.  I still hate those  
triangles for major 7ths and the minus dash for minor 7ths.  Ugh.


May I refer you to the Gibraltar and Friends fakebook (not its  
official name, but that's the first tune), in which the turnaround  
for Stolen Moments (4th structure built up from D, (D,G, C) rises in  
semitones, and is noted as D4, Eb4, etc.? Other tunes in the book are  
similar.


That's partly why I don't like ambiguous chord symbols.

Christopher


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Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa

[Christopher Smith]

On Jun 20, 2008, at 5:19 PM, jd IMAP wrote:


On Jun 20, 2008, at 1:56 PM, A-NO-NE Music wrote:


Oh, c'mon!  They are not the same!
C4 means no 5th, while C sus4 means it contains 5th.


Not in my neck of the woods!


All the more reason to use a more universal symbol.

Christopher



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Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa

[Darcy James Argue]

On 20 Jun 2008, at 5:07 PM, dhbailey wrote:

Wrong. "Ottava basso" is a perfectly legitimate word, and "8vb" is  
a perfectly sensible abbreviation ("8v" = "ottava," "b" = "basso").


But the original '8va' was an abbreviation of 'ottava' 8v isn't an  
abbreviation of anything.


Yes it is. It's an abbreviation of "ottava." Words can have multiple  
abbreviations, as you admit in your very next sentence.


 In the original Italian, the abbreviation was 8va and in English  
the abbreviation is 8ve.


The original Italian is not relevant. If you don't object to  
"violins," "cellos," "concertos," and "tempos," and all the rest, then  
it's pretty silly to take issue with "8vb."


As others have pointed out, the "8vb" marking is also more functional,  
especially if the line stretches over multiple systems and the  
vertical spacing is tight.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY





- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY




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Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa

[jd IMAP]

I have never seen or heard of a C4 interpreted as C-F-Bb.  I've used  
that chord symbol thousands upon thousands of times and not once was  
it misinterpreted.  At least by pros. Beyond that, I don't speculate.


Maybe it's a right vs left coast thing.  I still hate those triangles  
for major 7ths and the minus dash for minor 7ths.  Ugh.


***
J D  Thomas
ThomaStudios
West Linn  OR
www.thomastudios.com




On Jun 20, 2008, at 2:09 PM, Christopher Smith wrote:



On Jun 20, 2008, at 4:31 PM, jd IMAP wrote:


To me it's a lot like writing a C4 chord symbol versus a Csus4.   
I've used both, prefer the former, and I've never had it questioned.


I'm not disputing the original point, but this one. C4 in some  
circles means a stack of 4ths up from C, so C, F, Bb, which is not  
the same function as C,F,G.


It is this that keeps me using the more unwieldy, but crystal clear,  
Csus4.


Christopher


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Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa

[jd IMAP]

On Jun 20, 2008, at 1:56 PM, A-NO-NE Music wrote:


Oh, c'mon!  They are not the same!
C4 means no 5th, while C sus4 means it contains 5th.


Not in my neck of the woods!

***
J D  Thomas
ThomaStudios
West Linn  OR
www.thomastudios.com

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Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa

[Christopher Smith]

On Jun 20, 2008, at 4:31 PM, jd IMAP wrote:


 To me it's a lot like writing a C4 chord symbol versus a Csus4.   
I've used both, prefer the former, and I've never had it questioned.


I'm not disputing the original point, but this one. C4 in some  
circles means a stack of 4ths up from C, so C, F, Bb, which is not  
the same function as C,F,G.


It is this that keeps me using the more unwieldy, but crystal clear,  
Csus4.


Christopher


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Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa

[dhbailey]

Darcy James Argue wrote:

On 20 Jun 2008, at 3:55 PM, dhbailey wrote:

So to put a 'b' in place of the 'a' simply produces a nonsense 
abbreviation of a non-existent word.


Wrong. "Ottava basso" is a perfectly legitimate word, and "8vb" is a 
perfectly sensible abbreviation ("8v" = "ottava," "b" = "basso").




But the original '8va' was an abbreviation of 'ottava' 8v isn't an 
abbreviation of anything.  In the original Italian, the abbreviation was 
8va and in English the abbreviation is 8ve.


Of course anybody can use anything they want anywhere they wish, and if 
it's understood in that musical circle it's fine.  But to expect it to 
be understood by the larger musical world might be stretching things.


All the musical reference works I've ever looked in on this subject say 
the same thing -- none refer to 8vb as anything, and all explain that 
8va means to play at the octave, with placement above the notes 
indicating an octave higher.


And wouldn't it be 'ottava bassa' since ottava is a feminine noun in 
Italian?



--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa

[A-NO-NE Music]

dhbailey / 08.6.20 / 3:55 PM wrote:

>Would everybody understand it?  I doubt it.  Does everybody understand 
>what '8va' means when placed beneath a row of notes?

Yes.  I use 8va basso.

-- 

- Hiro

Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA
 



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Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa

[A-NO-NE Music]

jd IMAP / 08.6.20 / 4:31 PM wrote:

>To me it's a lot like writing a C4 chord  
>symbol versus a Csus4.

Oh, c'mon!  They are not the same!
C4 means no 5th, while C sus4 means it contains 5th.

Besides, C4 is very dangerous!  Highly explosive.

I understand languages change, but that doesn't mean it is OK to be incorrect.

-- 

- Hiro

Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA
 



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Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa

[Dennis Bathory-Kitsz]

On Fri, June 20, 2008 3:55 pm, dhbailey wrote:
> But it's a bastardization of the original 8va which does not mean
> "ottava alta" or any such thing.  It simply meant "ottava" or "octave."
>   Its placement above the music means an octave above, and its placement
> below the music means to play the music an octave below what is written.
> So to put a 'b' in place of the 'a' simply produces a nonsense
> abbreviation of a non-existent word.

Like the "ATM machine" redundancy or "their" as singular or "myriad" as a
noun or "dial" for touch telephones or "logon" for open websites or a
thousand other changes that seem illogical or historically uninformed,
this is among them.

What makes it unclear? Don't forget that it is used in local-language-only
scores (along with just 8). And to me 8va and 8vb are doubly helpful
because the placement of an 8va or 8 symbol between nearby staves is
ambiguous unless you hunt for a line and hook.

Plus it's been around a long time. I just checked -- I was using it before
1970, and yes, I had the first edition of Read with the green cover with
Stockhausen on the back and learned from it. But I also knew where his
advice was not really useful.

Dennis

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Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa

[jd IMAP]

On Jun 20, 2008, at 12:55 PM, dhbailey wrote:

jd IMAP wrote:
I like the 8vb for the octave lower rather than the 8va.  I think  
it's reactively clearer.  And I use it via Smart Shape since it  
breaks systems.


But it's a bastardization of the original 8va which does not mean  
"ottava alta" or any such thing.  It simply meant "ottava" or  
"octave."  Its placement above the music means an octave above, and  
its placement below the music means to play the music an octave  
below what is written.


So to put a 'b' in place of the 'a' simply produces a nonsense  
abbreviation of a non-existent word.


Would everybody understand it?  I doubt it.  Does everybody  
understand what '8va' means when placed beneath a row of notes?



Who really cares??  If it works, it works.  I've had musicians tells  
me it's just a bit clearer.  To me it's a lot like writing a C4 chord  
symbol versus a Csus4.  I've used both, prefer the former, and I've  
never had it questioned.  Same with the 8vb.  You can be a purist if  
you want to, but in the long-term, it doesn't really matter.  What  
matters to me is what gets played correctly and without any question.   
I've never seen the 8vb misread, but I have seen 8va under the staff  
misread.  Granted, the musician was probably a moron, but it happened,  
and it took away a bit of valuable time.



***
J D  Thomas
ThomaStudios
West Linn  OR
www.thomastudios.com




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RE: [Finale] Kontakt limited time offer

[Stu McIntire]

I have Kontakt 2, and it is a great sampler, a really amazing tool.  More
about the upgrade, Kontakt 3, here:
http://www.native-instruments.com/index.php?id=kontakt3

Stu


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Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa

[Darcy James Argue]

On 20 Jun 2008, at 3:55 PM, dhbailey wrote:

So to put a 'b' in place of the 'a' simply produces a nonsense  
abbreviation of a non-existent word.


Wrong. "Ottava basso" is a perfectly legitimate word, and "8vb" is a  
perfectly sensible abbreviation ("8v" = "ottava," "b" = "basso").


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY




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Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa

[dhbailey]

jd IMAP wrote:
I like the 8vb for the octave lower rather than the 8va.  I think it's 
reactively clearer.  And I use it via Smart Shape since it breaks systems.




But it's a bastardization of the original 8va which does not mean 
"ottava alta" or any such thing.  It simply meant "ottava" or "octave." 
 Its placement above the music means an octave above, and its placement 
below the music means to play the music an octave below what is written.


So to put a 'b' in place of the 'a' simply produces a nonsense 
abbreviation of a non-existent word.


Would everybody understand it?  I doubt it.  Does everybody understand 
what '8va' means when placed beneath a row of notes?



--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa

[jd IMAP]

I like the 8vb for the octave lower rather than the 8va.  I think it's  
reactively clearer.  And I use it via Smart Shape since it breaks  
systems.


***
J D  Thomas
ThomaStudios
West Linn  OR
www.thomastudios.com


On Jun 20, 2008, at 11:23 AM, Paul Hayden wrote:

I quit using the ottava bassa sign (8vb) _under_ notes several years  
ago when I read (in Read's book and probably on this list) that the  
normal octave sign (8va) should be used. I noticed that FinMac08b  
uses 8vb by default when you use the Smart Shapes octave symbol  
(8va) below notes. (I reset the 8vb symbol so that 8va shows in the  
Smart Shape Options window.)


1. Do you think 8vb under notes looks amateurish?

2. Do you normally use 8va and its dashed bracket line in Smart  
Shapes, or do you do it all manually with an Expression "8va" and  
then the dashed bracket tool in Smart Shapes?


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Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa

[Darcy James Argue]

On 20 Jun 2008, at 2:23 PM, Paul Hayden wrote:

I quit using the ottava bassa sign (8vb) _under_ notes several years  
ago when I read (in Read's book and probably on this list) that the  
normal octave sign (8va) should be used.


Due respect to Read, but that's an outdated view.


1. Do you think 8vb under notes looks amateurish?


Not in the slightest.

2. Do you normally use 8va and its dashed bracket line in Smart  
Shapes,


Yes.

or do you do it all manually with an Expression "8va" and then the  
dashed bracket tool in Smart Shapes?


No -- why would you do that?

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY




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[Finale] Ottava bassa

[Paul Hayden]

I quit using the ottava bassa sign (8vb) _under_ notes several years  
ago when I read (in Read's book and probably on this list) that the  
normal octave sign (8va) should be used. I noticed that FinMac08b uses  
8vb by default when you use the Smart Shapes octave symbol (8va) below  
notes. (I reset the 8vb symbol so that 8va shows in the Smart Shape  
Options window.)


1. Do you think 8vb under notes looks amateurish?

2. Do you normally use 8va and its dashed bracket line in Smart  
Shapes, or do you do it all manually with an Expression "8va" and then  
the dashed bracket tool in Smart Shapes?


Paul Hayden


Magnolia Music Press
6319 Riverbend Blvd.
Baton Rouge, LA 70820

Voice & Pre-arranged fax:  225-769-9604


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Re: [Finale] Kontakt limited time offer

[dhbailey]

JERRY BERG wrote:

I see Kontakt is offering a deal on some sounds for Finale.  Anybody use them?  
Are they good?  What's required AFA softwae to run them?
Info much appreciated.

Jerry
Gerald Berg
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It's the sampling software itself, not just some sounds.  It's the full 
version of Kontakt3 -- Finale (and Sibelius) come with a runtime version 
of KontaktPlayer, which is just the software to load and play the 
samples which ship with Finale (or Sibelius).  The full version of 
Kontakt allows you to edit the samples, record the samples if you wish, 
and do a whole lot more than simply play the sounds which ship with 
Finale.  I'm sure it also comes with a lot of sounds, but they won't be 
the Garritan Personal Orchestra (plus some extras) sounds which come 
with Finale.  I don't know anything more than that, but I did want to 
make sure that you understood that what they are offering is a lot more 
than "some sounds for Finale."


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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[Finale] Kontakt limited time offer

[JERRY BERG]

I see Kontakt is offering a deal on some sounds for Finale.  Anybody use them?  
Are they good?  What's required AFA softwae to run them?
Info much appreciated.

Jerry
Gerald Berg
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Re: [Finale] WinFin 2008a Rests in Voice 2

[dhbailey]

dc wrote:

dhbailey écrit:
A suggestion -- use the Show Active Layer Only and copy each layer 
separately.  For extra voices, copy only those measures which actually 
use those layers.


I was using only one layer, but with voices 1 and 2.

Dennis



I'm sorry -- I hadn't had enough coffee when I read your message.  oops. 
 :-(


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] WinFin 2008a Rests in Voice 2

[dhbailey]

dc wrote:

Henry E. Howey écrit:

After various pastes between staves, I am findind rests appearing in bars
where the Voice 2 has never been used.

These artifacts can be painstakingly removed, but they are seemingly
something peculiar to 2008. I'm sure there's an obscure button I need to
uncheck. I remain distrustful of the :filters" in the EDIT menu;-(


I've encountered the same problem: copying, say, 8 measures some, but 
not all of which, use a voice 2, I will end up with rests in all the 
measures. Very annoying. If anyone has the solution, I'd be interested.


Dennis



A suggestion -- use the Show Active Layer Only and copy each layer 
separately.  For extra voices, copy only those measures which actually 
use those layers.


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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