Re: [Finale] Trombones (OT; was Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed)
On 20 Jan 2009 at 23:17, John Howell wrote: (And no, there were no trombones in the Toccata, just the trumpet corps from the Duke's military establishment who played their little fanfare and then went out for a beer or three! Er, there aren't any trumpets in the Toccata, either, just cornetti. Whether or not those were military instruments I don't know, but they sure weren't trumpets. Mozart called for alto, tenor and bass doubling the alto, tenor and bass choral lines in many of his sacred works, and the only reason Mendeslssohn used trombones in his Reformation symphony was because of that religious reference. Mozart didn't call for trombones -- there's no indication of that in the scores of any of his liturgical music. But it was standard practice to double the bottom three choral lines with trombones. He didn't indicate what instruments would play the bass line, either, but it's clear in the choral music that it would likely be organ and one or two bass instruments. Likewise with the trombones, it's not explicit in the score precisely because it didn't need to be. Thus, in the Reformation symphony, Mendelssohn is drawing on a sound that would be a clear point of reference for his listeners and immediately summon up the associations of liturgical music. So, trombone players were actually pretty busy pre-Beethoven, just not in secular instrumental music. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trombones (OT; was Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed)
At 9:19 AM -0500 1/21/09, David W. Fenton wrote: On 20 Jan 2009 at 23:17, John Howell wrote: (And no, there were no trombones in the Toccata, just the trumpet corps from the Duke's military establishment who played their little fanfare and then went out for a beer or three! Er, there aren't any trumpets in the Toccata, either, just cornetti. Whether or not those were military instruments I don't know, but they sure weren't trumpets. I could be wrong, of course, but I have worked with a microfilm of the original printed score, and the impression is that they were indeed trumpets, in fact muted trumpets. (There were, of course such things as mute cornetts, but those where quite different and I believe were only found in the Germanic Kingdoms.) And the writing is precisely what one would expect for an experienced trumpet fanfare band. It was when he recycled the Toccata for the 1610 Vespers that cornetti and sackbuts got involved. And the Orfeo Toccata is quite playable on the natural trumpets of the time, not requiring cornetti at all. Mozart called for alto, tenor and bass doubling the alto, tenor and bass choral lines in many of his sacred works, and the only reason Mendeslssohn used trombones in his Reformation symphony was because of that religious reference. Mozart didn't call for trombones -- there's no indication of that in the scores of any of his liturgical music. I may have seen the indications in modern scores. But in a graduate seminar I was assigned some ms. pages to analyze that happened to include a piece by Schütz (possibly from the Psalmen Davids composed under the influence of Venetian practice), in which the score had very clearly hand-copied indications of con tromboni and senza tromboni. One could argue that those indication were entered by a choir director rather than the composer, but the result is the same in either case. (There was also a wonderful place where I discovered that a mensuration change overlapped in various parts, making the proportion absolutely clear!) But it was standard practice to double the bottom three choral lines with trombones. He didn't indicate what instruments would play the bass line, either, but it's clear in the choral music that it would likely be organ and one or two bass instruments. Likewise with the trombones, it's not explicit in the score precisely because it didn't need to be. Exactly so. Thus, in the Reformation symphony, Mendelssohn is drawing on a sound that would be a clear point of reference for his listeners and immediately summon up the associations of liturgical music. So, trombone players were actually pretty busy pre-Beethoven, just not in secular instrumental music. Yes, the point I was trying to make. Now with all that given, one has to wonder whether Beethoven harbored some kind of secret liturgical idea regarding the Finale of the 5th. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trombones (OT; was Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed)
On 21 Jan 2009 at 12:05, John Howell wrote: At 9:19 AM -0500 1/21/09, David W. Fenton wrote: Mozart didn't call for trombones -- there's no indication of that in the scores of any of his liturgical music. I may have seen the indications in modern scores. No doubt -- the BH Gesamtausgabe certainly indicated the trombone doubling, but there's nothing at all in any Mozart autograph I've ever seen that calls for trombone doubling in the liturgical music (including the music). But in a graduate seminar I was assigned some ms. pages to analyze that happened to include a piece by Schütz (possibly from the Psalmen Davids ...which, of course, has zilch to do with Mozart's practice... composed under the influence of Venetian practice), in which the score had very clearly hand-copied indications of con tromboni and senza tromboni. One could argue that those indication were entered by a choir director rather than the composer, but the result is the same in either case. (There was also a wonderful place where I discovered that a mensuration change overlapped in various parts, making the proportion absolutely clear!) Wow -- that's pretty unusual. Was it one of the stereotypical proportions, or something interesting? I've always been suspicious of slavish devotion to strict proportion, myself, as it often results in problems (particularly in certain vocal pieces). My bet is that they had rules what they meant, along with oral traditions of interpretation where they weren't actually slaves to the exact proportion. I think is especially true in the 17th century, because by that time Baroque affect was beginning to control performance as much as tactus and proportion. But I digress... [] Yes, the point I was trying to make. Now with all that given, one has to wonder whether Beethoven harbored some kind of secret liturgical idea regarding the Finale of the 5th. Or if he was really doing something new. I don't know what kinds of traditions there were in military establishments, if there were something like brass sections or not. Perhaps there was a brass sound that existed outside the genre that were familiar that he was drawing on (the same way that certain types of D major and C major pieces of all kinds in the late 18th century draw on military music for some of their style and instrumentation, e.g., celebratory music with trumpets and drums). -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Help Please: Midi Export from Finale as Notated
Help Please-- The Midi file export with the settings I'm using (and I've tried dozens of variants from Playback Options to Human Playback) all truncate or cut short note values, particularly durations less than a quarter note? Does any one have the magic bullet recipe that exports Finale data as notated? Many Thanks. Best wishes, Earl ** A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.asp x?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=DecemailfooterNO62) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT trombones in Beethoven
On Jan 20, 2009, at 7:38 PM, Ray Horton wrote: ... the most common trombone section of the classical era was three Bb tenors. Both Mozart and Beethoven (and at least a few early Romantics) routinely write the bass trombone down to C. No valveless tenor can play this note. So much for that theory. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Playback controls repeat setting
when using the playback controls on Fin 2009 Mac OS 10.4.11 I get a message to enter a number between 1 and 1. I enter the number 1 and the next time I play the sequence it resets to 2 and then I once again get the message Please enter a number between 1 and 1 and on and on Can this be fixed? Mark McCarron --- On Tue, 1/20/09, Mark McCarron mmcg...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Mark McCarron mmcg...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Finale] Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed by itself (Somewhat OT) To: finale@shsu.edu Date: Tuesday, January 20, 2009, 6:42 PM when using the playback controls on Fin 2009 Mac OS 10.4.11 I get a message to enter a number between 1 and 1. Can this be fixed? Mark McCarron ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] human playback for swing 16th's?
I'm transcribing a piece that has swing 16th's. Is there a way to make Finale playback the 16th's with a swing feel? Fin 2009 mac OS 10.4.11 Mark McCarron ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Help Please: Midi Export from Finale as Notated
Hi Earl--I went into this in great detail with MM support, and then their Notation specialist, a long while ago, for many weeks-but this happened to me with Midi IMPORT. And with me, the truncated durations resulted in repeated notes. The problem as they insist, is in include voice two--that had to be checked, and I had to submit a feature request for 3 or more voices-- and the way it is now, it ruins a good job Finale can sometimes do in importing midi files.- but again, mine was to do with importing midi files, and the repeated notes, and truncations did show up in FIns onscreen notation and in the exported midi file.. Coincidentally, Im in contact with them again, about this stuff-- and the ONLY thing the sup'v says thats needed to export a midi file of FInales on screen notation is to have HP OFF. NOTHING else-( I had thought those playback options had to be unchecked, but he claims not_) Bob On Jan 21, 2009, at 2:48 PM, earlrs...@aol.com wrote: Help Please-- The Midi file export with the settings I'm using (and I've tried dozens of variants from Playback Options to Human Playback) all truncate or cut short note values, particularly durations less than a quarter note? Does any one have the magic bullet recipe that exports Finale data as notated? Many Thanks. Best wishes, Earl ** A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1215855013x1201028747/aol? redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.asp x?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=DecemailfooterNO62) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] human playback for swing 16th's?
Hi Mark--I know you asked for easy, hope this helps--this is straight from the 2008 manual.. Hope this helps-- Bob Morabito === Swing Playback To create swing playback (for the entire piece) This method is for generating swing feel from an otherwise “straight” score. (If you’ve used HyperScribe to record a performance, you can “capture” the swing feel. Make sure Retain Note Durations is checked in More Quantization Settings and Play Recorded Note Durations is checked in Playback/Record Options (see Document Menu). When you playback, you’ll hear the music with your original feel, including swing, played back.) Note that you can also apply a Swing feel using the Jazz Human Playback Style which can be configured in the Playback Controls. Swing is not available with all Human Playback styles. 1. From the Window Menu, choose Playback Controls. Playback Controls appears. 2. Click the expand arrow. The Playback Settings dialog box appears Controls expands, offering additional controls. 3. From the Swing popup menu, choose Standard. 4. Click on Play. - To create swing playback (for sections of the piece) Use the Apply Human Playback plug-in to apply Human Playback’s swing interpretation to a region of your score. To define swing manually with the Selection Tool, do the following: 1. Choose the Selection Tool image\Selection_Tool.gif. 2. Select a region of measures. 3. From the Plug-ins Menu, choose Playback, then Apply Human Playback. The Apply Human Playback dialog box appears. 4. From the Apply a Defined Style, choose Jazz (or another style that incorporates swing). 5. Choose Apply Specific Elements and click the Select button. The More Settings dialog box appears. 6. From the Swing popup menu, select the desired swing percentage. 7. Click OK and then Apply. Swing playback has been applied to the selected region. Playback the score to review the results. To create swing playback (for sections of the piece) Expression Tool method Note: In order to apply swing playback with an expression, Human Playback must be set to None. 1. Click the Expression Tool image\Expression_Tool.gif. If you haven’t yet placed the marking in the score, double-click any note or measure. When the Expression Selection dialog box appears, click the desired marking, click Edit, and then skip to the instruction marked by the asterisk (*). 2. Click the measure or note to which the tempo marking was attached. Its handle appears. 3. Option-double-click the handle. The Text Expression Designer dialog box appears. 4. Click the Playback/Record Options. The playback options appear. 5. From the Type popup menu, choose Swing; then enter a number in the Set to Value box or select a choice from the Swing popup menu. The number you type into the box indicates a percentage of swing. The larger the percentage of swing, the more delay before the second note. 6. Click OK (or press return). Any time Finale encounters the expression you’ve just defined when it plays back your score, the playback will change to reflect the expression’s swing definition. - To create swing playback (for sections of the piece) MIDI Tool method Note: In order to apply swing playback with the MIDI Tool, Human Playback must be set to None. 1. Click the MIDI Tool image\MIDI_Tool.gif. Select the region where you want the playback to have a swing feel. You can select one measure by clicking, additional measures by shift-clicking, a screenful by drag-enclosing, an entire staff by clicking to the left of it, or the entire piece by choosing Select All from the Edit Menu. 2. From the MIDI Tool Menu, choose Note Durations. 3. From the MIDI Tool Menu, choose Alter Feel. Type 171 into the Backbeats By” text box. If you enter a number larger than 171, your swing effect approaches a dotted-eighth/sixteenth feel, which is useful in slower swing tempos; if you enter a number smaller than 171, the swing effect approaches an even-eighth-note feel, which might be better at faster tempos. 4. Click OK (or press return). When you play back the selected region, you’ll hear genuine swing—Finale is playing the second eighth note of every eighth-note pair slightly late, just as a jazz player would. Note: These instructions assume that the time signature is,2/4, 3/4 or 4/4 ; the “backbeats” that Finale delays are, therefore, every other eighth note. If the meter is 2/2 , however, the backbeats are every quarter note, so the swing playback you get may seem erratic if you were expecting traditional eighth-note swing. To solve the problem, change the time signature to a quarter-note–based one before using the MIDI Tool. Note: Do not use both MIDI Tool Swing and Swing from the Playback Controls, as these effects are additive. On Jan 21, 2009, at 3:18 PM, Mark McCarron wrote: I'm transcribing a piece
Re: [Finale] slashed 3 time signature
dc wrote: Context is a (manuscript) Buxtehude cantata. The sections in 3/4 time are marked 3 with a slash (that looks like a slanted long s). Is this a common time signature, and does it have any special meaning? www.collins.lautre.net/files/3.jpg Thanks! Dennis I believe it's a cut time signature, similar to C|. 3| should be twice as fast as 3. Barbara ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] human playback for swing 16th's?
Try entering the piece with a key signature of --/8 (something over 8, such as 4/8, 6/8 etc., which you can then hide for printout). Then Human Playback swing will be applied to the next smaller note values, i.e. 16ths. Eric On 21.01.2009, at 21:18, Mark McCarron wrote: I'm transcribing a piece that has swing 16th's. Is there a way to make Finale playback the 16th's with a swing feel? Fin 2009 mac OS 10.4.11 Mark McCarron ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Habsburger Verlag Frankfurt (Dr. Fiedler) www.habsburgerverlag.de eric.f.fied...@t-online.de e.fied...@em.uni-frankfurt.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT trombones in Beethoven
On 21-Jan-09, at 21-Jan-09 3:02 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote: On Jan 20, 2009, at 7:38 PM, Ray Horton wrote: ... the most common trombone section of the classical era was three Bb tenors. Both Mozart and Beethoven (and at least a few early Romantics) routinely write the bass trombone down to C. No valveless tenor can play this note. So much for that theory. What Ray said was that three tenors was the most common section that PERFORMED in the classical era. These composers may very well have written the notes, but they weren't played on a bass instrument very often, by all reports. Also, routinely might be a bit of an exaggeration. A C might show up from time to time, but not in every work by a long shot. They may have written it when they knew they were going to have the player, which might not have been all that often (it might say more about my lack of wide experience when I say that I have never seen Mozart write a C.) Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT trombones in Beethoven
Can someone tell me where one of these great-octave C's for bass 'bone is in something by Beethoven or Mozart? I recall an instance in the Brahms 1st symphony chorale, but not in the works of the other two. ajr, now waiting for the orginal three tenors to take their bow! On 21-Jan-09, at 21-Jan-09 3:02 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote: On Jan 20, 2009, at 7:38 PM, Ray Horton wrote: ... the most common trombone section of the classical era was three Bb tenors. Both Mozart and Beethoven (and at least a few early Romantics) routinely write the bass trombone down to C. No valveless tenor can play this note. So much for that theory. What Ray said was that three tenors was the most common section that PERFORMED in the classical era. These composers may very well have written the notes, but they weren't played on a bass instrument very often, by all reports. Also, routinely might be a bit of an exaggeration. A C might show up from time to time, but not in every work by a long shot. They may have written it when they knew they were going to have the player, which might not have been all that often (it might say more about my lack of wide experience when I say that I have never seen Mozart write a C.) Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trombones (OT; was Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed)
On 20 Jan 2009 at 23:53, Christopher Smith wrote: Here's an article http://www.britishtrombonesociety.org/resources/shifrin/chapter-1- from-beethoven-to-schumann.html He deals with the post-Beethoven symphonic writing for trombone. The gist is: even though the score may be written in a certain clef and the tessitura may suit one instrument or another, there is no firm rule determining what instrument was written for, preferred, or actually used (the three are completely independent of each other.) I'm sorry, Christopher, but I don't see anything in that article that supports your interpretation of it. Can you elucidate? -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] slashed 3 time signature
On 21 Jan 2009 at 21:29, dc wrote: Context is a (manuscript) Buxtehude cantata. The sections in 3/4 time are marked 3 with a slash (that looks like a slanted long s). Is this a common time signature, and does it have any special meaning? www.collins.lautre.net/files/3.jpg Seems quite consistent to me. C| is 2/2, 3| would be 3/4 as opposed to the traditional 3/2. I've never seen it before, but, hey, there's lots of stuff out there I've never seen! Is this a liturgical work? BTW, you've been doing the Charpentier stuff -- what do you think about the cadential C| measures? Half value for the tactus (previous quarter = C| half) or same value (previous half = C| half)? When we performed it we found that metrically, it made sense to make the C| half equal to the the previous quarter (usually 4/4). -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trombones (OT; was Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed)
On Jan 21, 2009, at 8:26 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 20 Jan 2009 at 23:53, Christopher Smith wrote: Here's an article http://www.britishtrombonesociety.org/resources/shifrin/chapter-1- from-beethoven-to-schumann.html He deals with the post-Beethoven symphonic writing for trombone. The gist is: even though the score may be written in a certain clef and the tessitura may suit one instrument or another, there is no firm rule determining what instrument was written for, preferred, or actually used (the three are completely independent of each other.) I'm sorry, Christopher, but I don't see anything in that article that supports your interpretation of it. Can you elucidate? Sorry, the site seems to have restructured itself since I posted the link! 8-) In Chapter 1:1:3 he discusses the problems assembling a full trombone section in cities other than Vienna, saying, ...the ideal number of trombonists that made up a Beethoven trombone section may have been any number that was available. Chap 1:3:1, Schubert puts all trombones on one staff in his scores in one clef (tenor) though he probably intended it for ATB trio. Though the range suits tenor trombone on the first part (AND the third, says me, except for a rare low note!), a modern tenor is probably too heavy. Because the parts were copied in tenor clef in an early edition, it was often played on tenor trombone, against the probable intent of the composer. Footnote 118, as to the clefs used to notate these instruments, great confusion reigns 1:4:2, Mendelssohn wrote for a particular virtuoso bass trombonist who most likely played the part on a large-bore tenor (much like today's instrument, though without the modern valve.) Chap 2:1, Berlioz prefers the tenor trombone on the first part for theatre orchestras, but laments the loss of the alto at times in symphonies (he may have been talking about historical works by other composers). His parts are often played on three tenors; whether he liked that or just wrote for what was available is not clear, but he said that's what he wrote for. 2:3:1 Rossini, though he called his three trombone alto, tenor and bass, wrote for them as if they were three tenors, and the parts were almost certainly played on those instruments in his lifetime as a matter of course. Anyway, it goes on and on like this. Jumping ahead to Part II, he discusses Brahm, Dvorak and Bruckner, where it is not clear what was written for. The use of the term alto trombone doesn't seem to mean much in these scores, as most German orchestras were using three tenor trombones of varying bores at the time. It is a great resource for orchestral trombonists who are trying to understand the role of their instrument in certain repertoire, and shows how caution has to be applied when you rely too much on the appearance in the score. Of course, if you are trying to play the way it was back then, or what the composer really was aiming for, or what he would have written if he had the players, well, then that opens a huge can of worms. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trombones (OT; was Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed)
On 21 Jan 2009 at 21:55, Christopher Smith wrote: On Jan 21, 2009, at 8:26 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 20 Jan 2009 at 23:53, Christopher Smith wrote: Here's an article http://www.britishtrombonesociety.org/resources/shifrin/chapter-1- from-beethoven-to-schumann.html He deals with the post-Beethoven symphonic writing for trombone. The gist is: even though the score may be written in a certain clef and the tessitura may suit one instrument or another, there is no firm rule determining what instrument was written for, preferred, or actually used (the three are completely independent of each other.) I'm sorry, Christopher, but I don't see anything in that article that supports your interpretation of it. Can you elucidate? Sorry, the site seems to have restructured itself since I posted the link! 8-) In Chapter 1:1:3 he discusses the problems assembling a full trombone section in cities other than Vienna, saying, ...the ideal number of trombonists that made up a Beethoven trombone section may have been any number that was available. This is one of those logical fallacies -- absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I have a hard time believing that Vienna, with a major Catholic cathedral in it (and any number of other churches with full-fledged musical establishments), would have lacked for trombonists. Maybe not great ones, but still. Chap 1:3:1, Schubert puts all trombones on one staff in his scores in one clef (tenor) though he probably intended it for ATB trio. Though the range suits tenor trombone on the first part (AND the third, says me, except for a rare low note!), a modern tenor is probably too heavy. Because the parts were copied in tenor clef in an early edition, it was often played on tenor trombone, against the probable intent of the composer. Footnote 118, as to the clefs used to notate these instruments, great confusion reigns A composer's autograph score in the period of Schubert is nothing but a guide to the copyist for creating parts. I see nothing at all there in what you quote that suggests anything in regard to evidence about which instruments Schubert intended -- the documentary evidence is itself contradictory. And even the interpretation offered does not support the 3-tenors hypothesis. [later examples omitted] Anyway, it goes on and on like this. Jumping ahead to Part II, he discusses Brahm, Dvorak and Bruckner, where it is not clear what was written for. The use of the term alto trombone doesn't seem to mean much in these scores, as most German orchestras were using three tenor trombones of varying bores at the time. I didn't read the later parts of the article, but I found the evidence adduced to be pretty weak tea. The original parts used by the Vienna Philharmonic since its founding in 1842 still exist. Surely examining those would say something about what performance practices actually existed in that particular location throughout much of the 19th century. And, of course, different places had different traditions (Vienna still does with its special brass instruments, for instance; do they still use gut strings in the strings?). It is a great resource for orchestral trombonists who are trying to understand the role of their instrument in certain repertoire, and shows how caution has to be applied when you rely too much on the appearance in the score. Seems to me that boils down to nothing more than being sure you're using critical scores, rather than depending on some Eulenberg miniature score that's probably 10 or more generations away from the composer's original (with some exceptions, of course -- the Bruckner scores are actually taken almost directly from the original bowdlerized editions of Bruckner's symphonies). Of course, if you are trying to play the way it was back then, or what the composer really was aiming for, or what he would have written if he had the players, well, then that opens a huge can of worms. Er, isn't that what the intent of the article was? I found the whole thing pretty weak. It hardly ever deals with original sources, and when it does, the author really doesn't seem qualified to assess their meaning (as in the Schubert example, for instance). I wouldn't conclude anything at all from that article, except the truism that one should never trust conventional wisdom, or longstanding performance traditions. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trombones (OT; was Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed)
Weiner's work has barely been scratched here. One of his findings is that the use of falset notes (faked low notes) on tenor trombone was described in some sources and position charts (I won't try to recall where and when without the article in front of me) much earlier than many of us would have thought. These notes (Eb below the bass clef in fourth position, D in fifth, etc.) which are particularly easy to play on smaller-bore instruments, were commonly known in the late 19th century, but there is evidence that these notes were often used in the classical era to play bass trombone notes below low E on a Bb trombone. This is Weiner's theory, for example, for the wide-ranging bass trombone part to Haydn's _Creation_. This part would not be playable on an F bass trombone at any rate - ranging from to G above the staff to Bb and C below (the C could be played on a F bass trombone but not the Bb) but could be played on a Bb instrument using these falset notes (the Bb is the fundamental). The only other explanations for that range are composer ignorance (always a possibility, since Haydn had not written for trombone much) or his anticipation of the invention of the F-attachment by forty or fifty years! Again, Weiner's best assessment of the instruments played by the Germans brought to England for the premiere of the work is three Bb trombones, with different sized mouthpieces. Both Shifrin and Weiner have made huge strides in this area of scholarship. What is on the web is only a sample. Shifrin's work is aimed mostly at the orchestral symphonic player, trying to determine which instruments were written for, and which a modern player should use. (Another useful area of his work is to determine which 19th and early 20th century works were written for valve trombone, such as all of Dvorak, but not the early Rossini operas.) Weiner's work is more comprehensive and historical. Weiner criticizes Shifrin for sloppy scholarship, but I don't see it. Shifrin has combed through Europe, examining hundreds of autographs and parts - I'm sure he has been through the Vienna Symphony library in addition to many others. I would even venture to say that their work is so well-documented that anyone who wants to dispute would need, at this point, to come up with some examples. If anyone on this list is so certain of more common use of trombones pitched in higher or lower keys, one should show documentation of same. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra David W. Fenton wrote: On 21 Jan 2009 at 21:55, Christopher Smith wrote: On Jan 21, 2009, at 8:26 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 20 Jan 2009 at 23:53, Christopher Smith wrote: Here's an article http://www.britishtrombonesociety.org/resources/shifrin/chapter-1- from-beethoven-to-schumann.html He deals with the post-Beethoven symphonic writing for trombone. The gist is: even though the score may be written in a certain clef and the tessitura may suit one instrument or another, there is no firm rule determining what instrument was written for, preferred, or actually used (the three are completely independent of each other.) I'm sorry, Christopher, but I don't see anything in that article that supports your interpretation of it. Can you elucidate? Sorry, the site seems to have restructured itself since I posted the link! 8-) In Chapter 1:1:3 he discusses the problems assembling a full trombone section in cities other than Vienna, saying, ...the ideal number of trombonists that made up a Beethoven trombone section may have been any number that was available. This is one of those logical fallacies -- absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I have a hard time believing that Vienna, with a major Catholic cathedral in it (and any number of other churches with full-fledged musical establishments), would have lacked for trombonists. Maybe not great ones, but still. Chap 1:3:1, Schubert puts all trombones on one staff in his scores in one clef (tenor) though he probably intended it for ATB trio. Though the range suits tenor trombone on the first part (AND the third, says me, except for a rare low note!), a modern tenor is probably too heavy. Because the parts were copied in tenor clef in an early edition, it was often played on tenor trombone, against the probable intent of the composer. Footnote 118, as to the clefs used to notate these instruments, great confusion reigns A composer's autograph score in the period of Schubert is nothing but a guide to the copyist for creating parts. I see nothing at all there in what you quote that suggests anything in regard to evidence about which instruments Schubert intended -- the documentary evidence is itself contradictory. And even the interpretation offered does not support the 3-tenors hypothesis. [later examples omitted] Anyway, it goes on and on like this. Jumping
Re: [Finale] Trombones (OT; was Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed)
And is pedal b-flat out of the question? ajr Weiner's work has barely been scratched here. One of his findings is that the use of falset notes (faked low notes) on tenor trombone was described in some sources and position charts (I won't try to recall where and when without the article in front of me) much earlier than many of us would have thought. These notes (Eb below the bass clef in fourth position, D in fifth, etc.) which are particularly easy to play on smaller-bore instruments, were commonly known in the late 19th century, but there is evidence that these notes were often used in the classical era to play bass trombone notes below low E on a Bb trombone. This is Weiner's theory, for example, for the wide-ranging bass trombone part to Haydn's _Creation_. This part would not be playable on an F bass trombone at any rate - ranging from to G above the staff to Bb and C below (the C could be played on a F bass trombone but not the Bb) but could be played on a Bb instrument using these falset notes (the Bb is the fundamental). The only other explanations for that range are composer ignorance (always a possibility, since Haydn had not written for trombone much) or his anticipation of the invention of the F-attachment by forty or fifty years! Again, Weiner's best assessment of the instruments played by the Germans brought to England for the premiere of the work is three Bb trombones, with different sized mouthpieces. Both Shifrin and Weiner have made huge strides in this area of scholarship. What is on the web is only a sample. Shifrin's work is aimed mostly at the orchestral symphonic player, trying to determine which instruments were written for, and which a modern player should use. (Another useful area of his work is to determine which 19th and early 20th century works were written for valve trombone, such as all of Dvorak, but not the early Rossini operas.) Weiner's work is more comprehensive and historical. Weiner criticizes Shifrin for sloppy scholarship, but I don't see it. Shifrin has combed through Europe, examining hundreds of autographs and parts - I'm sure he has been through the Vienna Symphony library in addition to many others. I would even venture to say that their work is so well-documented that anyone who wants to dispute would need, at this point, to come up with some examples. If anyone on this list is so certain of more common use of trombones pitched in higher or lower keys, one should show documentation of same. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra David W. Fenton wrote: On 21 Jan 2009 at 21:55, Christopher Smith wrote: On Jan 21, 2009, at 8:26 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 20 Jan 2009 at 23:53, Christopher Smith wrote: Here's an article http://www.britishtrombonesociety.org/resources/shifrin/chapter-1- from-beethoven-to-schumann.html He deals with the post-Beethoven symphonic writing for trombone. The gist is: even though the score may be written in a certain clef and the tessitura may suit one instrument or another, there is no firm rule determining what instrument was written for, preferred, or actually used (the three are completely independent of each other.) I'm sorry, Christopher, but I don't see anything in that article that supports your interpretation of it. Can you elucidate? Sorry, the site seems to have restructured itself since I posted the link! 8-) In Chapter 1:1:3 he discusses the problems assembling a full trombone section in cities other than Vienna, saying, ...the ideal number of trombonists that made up a Beethoven trombone section may have been any number that was available. This is one of those logical fallacies -- absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I have a hard time believing that Vienna, with a major Catholic cathedral in it (and any number of other churches with full-fledged musical establishments), would have lacked for trombonists. Maybe not great ones, but still. Chap 1:3:1, Schubert puts all trombones on one staff in his scores in one clef (tenor) though he probably intended it for ATB trio. Though the range suits tenor trombone on the first part (AND the third, says me, except for a rare low note!), a modern tenor is probably too heavy. Because the parts were copied in tenor clef in an early edition, it was often played on tenor trombone, against the probable intent of the composer. Footnote 118, as to the clefs used to notate these instruments, great confusion reigns A composer's autograph score in the period of Schubert is nothing but a guide to the copyist for creating parts. I see nothing at all there in what you quote that suggests anything in regard to evidence about which instruments Schubert intended -- the documentary evidence is itself contradictory. And even the interpretation offered does not support the 3-tenors hypothesis. [later examples omitted] Anyway, it goes on and on like
Re: [Finale] OT trombones in Beethoven
At 6:04 PM -0600 1/21/09, arabu...@cowtown.net wrote: Can someone tell me where one of these great-octave C's for bass 'bone is in something by Beethoven or Mozart? I recall an instance in the Brahms 1st symphony chorale, but not in the works of the other two. Not in Beethoven's 5th. I just looked at the part. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] TAN: paper Clairefontain DCP ivory
Has anyone used the above paper? Is it worth getting? Should I get 100g/m2 or 120g/m2 for parts? Johannes ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT trombones in Beethoven
Please see my other reply to David's post about how these notes CAN be played on a valveless tenor. To expand: The Eb down to C in question can be played in 4th through 7th position. On modern instruments, played by players who do not cultivate this series of notes, there is a noticeable timbre difference, but on smaller bore instruments, the sound can be cultivated to match well. (Actually, it can on large-bore instruments, too. Often when a player gives up an F-attachment for the cleaner-blowing tenor without a valve, they will work on this falset range to cover occasional low notes. I have heard some very good players who can play in this range well enough to never need a valve.) Weiner has found more than one instance of documentation of knowledge of this extended range back into the 18th century (possibly earlier, I don't recall). I have, on a couple of occasions, used these notes in performance when a composer has forgotten that a bass trombonist has only two arms and has written low valve notes to be played with a plunger or harmon mute + wah-wah. I remember one particular instance, in which, in a middle of harmon wah-wahs in the staff (playable) the bass trombone part jumped down to a low Db (not playable, conventionally). I used the falset note low Db in 6th position (which I do not practice much, since I have valves on my bass trombone, but the result was passable). We recorded that piece - I could refer you to the LP in a local library, if I remember the name of it. (This was vivid to me as it was my first recording session with the LO, as a sub at the tender age of 18!) Now, the question that arises from your response, Andrew, is (even where/when this falset technique might not have been known) which are you gonna believe - the parts or the players and instruments? Yes, there are some low notes in the classics*, but if Weiner has established that the alto trombone was unknown in Vienna, and the bass trombone quite rare, does the fact that composers wrote for them make that fact invalid? I could show you several examples of contemporary composers writing notes that are not playable on modern instruments (such as a low B for tenor trombone - this has appeared almost with a frequency to be considered routine). Is the fact that the tenor trombone cannot conventionally play low B negated by the fact that several composers have written it? The most common trombone section of a community orchestra in the US in the first third of the twentieth century also consisted of three tenor trombones with no valve (check any picture from the time). Yet they played the Beethoven Fifth, the Brahms First, etc. How did they do it? They either played the high and low notes on the parts *Yes, there are some low notes in the classics, but not as many as you might think, when you start looking at them. You say 'Beethoven routinely wrote down to C.' But I know of no Beethoven bass trombone part that extends below F, including passages in _Fidelio_ and the Ninth which studiously avoid obvious places for lower notes (the dark passage in the second act which is the only real reason for trombones having to sit through the rest of the opera extends down, in octaves, but jumps to unison for the low D's, D#s and E's). As far as Mozart - I believe there are a few low notes in _Don Giovanni_ (I don't have that part here) but there is only one quarter note low D in _The Magic Flute_. The choral pieces do not go any lower than the bass voice. My other post discusses the Haydn _Creation_, which actually gives evidence for a Bb bass trombone by going both too low and too high for the F bass trombone! Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist Louisville Orchestra Andrew Stiller wrote: On Jan 20, 2009, at 7:38 PM, Ray Horton wrote: ... the most common trombone section of the classical era was three Bb tenors. Both Mozart and Beethoven (and at least a few early Romantics) routinely write the bass trombone down to C. No valveless tenor can play this note. So much for that theory. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trombones (OT; was Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed)
Certainly not. Sorry if I wasn't clear. The Bb below the staff in the Creation part, which is easily playable on a Bb trombone as a pedal note, is not playable on the rare F bass trombone. Hmm - unless it was playable on the F bass as a falset note, but this is not a given. (I have an F valve bass trombone cimbasso, I'll try the Bb as a falset next time I get it out, but all different types of instruments act differently in this range.) RBH arabu...@cowtown.net wrote: And is pedal b-flat out of the question? ajr Weiner's work has barely been scratched here. One of his findings is that the use of falset notes (faked low notes) on tenor trombone was described in some sources and position charts (I won't try to recall where and when without the article in front of me) much earlier than many of us would have thought. These notes (Eb below the bass clef in fourth position, D in fifth, etc.) which are particularly easy to play on smaller-bore instruments, were commonly known in the late 19th century, but there is evidence that these notes were often used in the classical era to play bass trombone notes below low E on a Bb trombone. This is Weiner's theory, for example, for the wide-ranging bass trombone part to Haydn's _Creation_. This part would not be playable on an F bass trombone at any rate - ranging from to G above the staff to Bb and C below (the C could be played on a F bass trombone but not the Bb) but could be played on a Bb instrument using these falset notes (the Bb is the fundamental). The only other explanations for that range are composer ignorance (always a possibility, since Haydn had not written for trombone much) or his anticipation of the invention of the F-attachment by forty or fifty years! Again, Weiner's best assessment of the instruments played by the Germans brought to England for the premiere of the work is three Bb trombones, with different sized mouthpieces. Both Shifrin and Weiner have made huge strides in this area of scholarship. What is on the web is only a sample. Shifrin's work is aimed mostly at the orchestral symphonic player, trying to determine which instruments were written for, and which a modern player should use. (Another useful area of his work is to determine which 19th and early 20th century works were written for valve trombone, such as all of Dvorak, but not the early Rossini operas.) Weiner's work is more comprehensive and historical. Weiner criticizes Shifrin for sloppy scholarship, but I don't see it. Shifrin has combed through Europe, examining hundreds of autographs and parts - I'm sure he has been through the Vienna Symphony library in addition to many others. I would even venture to say that their work is so well-documented that anyone who wants to dispute would need, at this point, to come up with some examples. If anyone on this list is so certain of more common use of trombones pitched in higher or lower keys, one should show documentation of same. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra David W. Fenton wrote: On 21 Jan 2009 at 21:55, Christopher Smith wrote: On Jan 21, 2009, at 8:26 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 20 Jan 2009 at 23:53, Christopher Smith wrote: Here's an article http://www.britishtrombonesociety.org/resources/shifrin/chapter-1- from-beethoven-to-schumann.html He deals with the post-Beethoven symphonic writing for trombone. The gist is: even though the score may be written in a certain clef and the tessitura may suit one instrument or another, there is no firm rule determining what instrument was written for, preferred, or actually used (the three are completely independent of each other.) I'm sorry, Christopher, but I don't see anything in that article that supports your interpretation of it. Can you elucidate? Sorry, the site seems to have restructured itself since I posted the link! 8-) In Chapter 1:1:3 he discusses the problems assembling a full trombone section in cities other than Vienna, saying, ...the ideal number of trombonists that made up a Beethoven trombone section may have been any number that was available. This is one of those logical fallacies -- absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I have a hard time believing that Vienna, with a major Catholic cathedral in it (and any number of other churches with full-fledged musical establishments), would have lacked for trombonists. Maybe not great ones, but still. Chap 1:3:1, Schubert puts all trombones on one staff in his scores in one clef (tenor) though he probably intended it for ATB trio. Though the range suits tenor trombone on the first part (AND the third, says me, except for a rare low note!), a modern tenor is probably too heavy. Because the parts were copied in tenor clef in an early edition, it was often played on tenor trombone, against the probable intent of the composer. Footnote 118, as to the clefs used to
