[Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
As Finale users, our hope is that musicians can read and understand what we want them to play and get it right the first time. With that in mind, I avoid dotted rests. Not because they aren't allowed, but because I think they make players look twice. If I can make my notation more clear I try to do it. Larry Eden Dotted half rests aren't allowed in common time or 4/4 in any circumstance in my opinion. Rests should never hide the 3rd beat or the middle of a bar. (So, no half rests in 3/4.) This seems like an unnecessarily strict rule, and one that is not followed in an awful lot of printed music. And I think that an awful lot of printed music looks awful precisely because of the poor use of rests. A lot of it has to do with the fill with rests at end of measure feature in Finale. And, although I don't know for sure, I would guess that Sibelius has a similar feature. But it all depends on context for me more than it does any set of rules about what's allowed or not in a particular meter. I'm all for context, but I would like to gently point you to some rules regarding what's incorrect and correct practice for notating rests. Gardner Read: page 99 Essential Dictionary of Music Notation (Alfred): page 198 Ross: page 180 Stone: page 134 Powell: page 23 ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
On Mar 12, 2009, at 12:27 AM, John Howell wrote: I'm all for context, but I would like to gently point you to some rules regarding what's incorrect and correct practice for notating rests. Gardner Read: page 99 Essential Dictionary of Music Notation (Alfred): page 198 Ross: page 180 Stone: page 134 Powell: page 23 And Clinton Roemer manages to avoid giving any special rules about this at all. No, he doesn't. Page 40, point 19 in the edition I use, he agrees with everyone else. Let's face it, these are all opinions, And they ALL agree! Well, in this context anyway. which there are plenty of right here on this list without appealing to higher authority! If it reads well, it's fine. If it doesn't, it isn't. And you're perfectly entitled to your opinion. Sure, but you ignore the opinions of every recognised expert in the field who has published a book on the subject. That HAS to count for something? Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Help Please Midi Export and Search Archives
Hello All, First of all, is there a way to search the SHSU archives? Second, I have hairpins and articulations set in a Finale File, and since the Smart Find function is so outstanding, I have applied the hairpins and articulations to analagous passages. Unfortunately the hairpins and articulations are not exporting in the exported midi file. Playback Options: Note Durations and Continuous Data are checked. HP Preferences are set to none. Thanks Folks! Earl ** A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1219671244x1201345076/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26 hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Help Please Midi Export and Search Archives
Hi Earl-- Try this for the searching question: http://www.opensubscriber.com/messages/finale@shsu.edu/topic.html Bob On Mar 12, 2009, at 11:02 AM, earlrs...@aol.com wrote: Hello All, First of all, is there a way to search the SHSU archives? Second, I have hairpins and articulations set in a Finale File, and since the Smart Find function is so outstanding, I have applied the hairpins and articulations to analagous passages. Unfortunately the hairpins and articulations are not exporting in the exported midi file. Playback Options: Note Durations and Continuous Data are checked. HP Preferences are set to none. Thanks Folks! Earl ** A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1219671244x1201345076/aol? redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc% 3D668072%26 hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
At 7:21 AM -0400 3/12/09, Christopher Smith wrote: On Mar 12, 2009, at 12:27 AM, John Howell wrote: And Clinton Roemer manages to avoid giving any special rules about this at all. No, he doesn't. Page 40, point 19 in the edition I use, he agrees with everyone else. I don't doubt you, but my edition (which I inherited when a colleague passed away) is copyright 1973, has nothing about rests on page 40 (I looked carefully from p. 30 to p. 50), and does not use numbered points at all. His only Chapter on rests is Chapter 5, and is mostly concerned with how to draw them (by hand, of course), both individual rests and multirests. I disagree with his instructions on how to draw quarter rests, since I trained my fingers to draw them from the top down rather than the bottom up, but everything else is just plain common sense. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Help Please Midi Export and Search Archives
Earl Re you question, First of all, is there a way to search the SHSU archives? I can't say about your system as your screen is a bit diffiuclt to read from where I sit. However, when I receive emails from the Finale list, each one contains the closing tag lines: ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale The line beginning with http://...; is the link to the page at the shsu website for the mailing list, on which page the line after the first heading contains a link to the complete archives of the Finale list, beginning in 1969, and continuing through to 2018. [No, these years are not a typo on my part; those are the years in the actual archive.] ns ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
On 12 Mar 2009 at 6:20, Lawrence David Eden wrote: As Finale users, our hope is that musicians can read and understand what we want them to play and get it right the first time. With that in mind, I avoid dotted rests. Not because they aren't allowed, but because I think they make players look twice. If I can make my notation more clear I try to do it. The point I've been trying to make is that you can't make a hard-and- fast rule about this -- there can be contexts in which the dotted rest will be clearer (or no less clear) than the alternative. It all depends on CONTEXT. Certainly in a meter like 6/4 I'd much rather have dotted half rests than muck around with half/quarter. Again, it all depends on context (and it also depends on your musicians -- early music specialists are not going to be bothered by dotted rests, for instance). -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
On 12 Mar 2009 at 7:21, Christopher Smith wrote: you ignore the opinions of every recognised expert in the field who has published a book on the subject. That HAS to count for something? For me, it counts for exactly ZILCH. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
David W. Fenton wrote: On 12 Mar 2009 at 7:21, Christopher Smith wrote: you ignore the opinions of every recognised expert in the field who has published a book on the subject. That HAS to count for something? For me, it counts for exactly ZILCH. I've always wondered whether these experts (whose opinions I pay attention to when they make sense to me) were experts who wrote books on notation or did they write books on notation and by dint of that fact alone have been accepted as experts. Surely we could put together an equal and opposing number of position papers on the use of dotted rests being A) clear to the performer; B) as easy to read with a little practice as any other facet of notation is for those who aren't comfortable with them; C) more helpful in terms of indicating the phrasing than using undotted rests to equal the same rhythmic space. I'm with the if it's clear and easy to read it's fine school of notation, which allows dotted rests and eschews double-dotted notes. :-) -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] rests in pick up measure
At 12:28 PM -0700 3/11/09, Ryan Beard wrote: Hi List, In Common time, I have a pick-up measure of 3 quarter notes. For the instruments who don't play, would you prefer to see: 3 quarter rests 1 quarter rest and 1 half rest Is there a correct answer for this case or is it open to interpretation? This music will be read by beginners, in case that affects your opinion. As a player I would ALWAYS prefer to see exactly the value of the pickup notes represented by rests. Anything else REQUIRES a statement in rehearsal that the pickup starts on beat 2, and that statement has to be repeated in rehearsal after rehearsal!!! As a conductor, I simply don't care because I can see what's happening in the score. What I do NOT like is the old fashioned way of having to make sure that a pickup partial-bar is subtracted from the bar at the end of a section, but that's still sometimes used. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] rests in pick up measure
On 11 Mar 2009 at 17:35, John Howell wrote: What I do NOT like is the old fashioned way of having to make sure that a pickup partial-bar is subtracted from the bar at the end of a section, but that's still sometimes used. If there's a repeat, how is that avoidable? Here's an example of avoiding it, and I think it's really confusing: http://dfenton.com/Teares/Scores/HasslerIntrada.pdf (p. 3) Something about notating the 2 beats that our leading gives for the tempo makes it harder to read. And the repeats are harder, too (though in this case, Hassler begins the piece differently than the repeat commences). I just don't see what's added by having those half- note rests there. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] rests in pick up measure
At 8:49 PM -0400 3/12/09, David W. Fenton wrote: On 11 Mar 2009 at 17:35, John Howell wrote: What I do NOT like is the old fashioned way of having to make sure that a pickup partial-bar is subtracted from the bar at the end of a section, but that's still sometimes used. If there's a repeat, how is that avoidable? Here's an example of avoiding it, and I think it's really confusing: http://dfenton.com/Teares/Scores/HasslerIntrada.pdf (p. 3) That's exactly how I'd notate it, and I don't find it confusing at all. I would, though, omit the 2 rests in the pickup bar, unless the intent is to notate exactly what Hassler had but in modern clefs. Something about notating the 2 beats that our leading gives for the tempo makes it harder to read. And the repeats are harder, too (though in this case, Hassler begins the piece differently than the repeat commences). I just don't see what's added by having those half- note rests there. In the pickup bar? That's what I said. There's NO need to have them in that context, and no confusion if they're omitted. Nice galliard, by the way. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Has Finale's Manual's Index Improved
In Fin2007 it is under Time Signatures, subheading: Multiple Time Signatures. That's the first place I would have looked if I needed to find it. I originally had written to look up INDEPENDENT TIME SIGNATURES in the manual, but realized that, knowing Finale's manuals, I should probably check to see if this was helpful or not. I was rather shocked at how obtuse the manual is -- if you look for INDEPENDENT TIME SIGNATURES (in the 2003 manual), there is no entry in the index, even the user interface has TIME SIGNATURE under INDEPENDENT ELEMENTS in the Staff Attributes dialog. Every discussion of the topic that's ever come up on this list that I can recall used Independent Time Signatures to refer to this feature, so there really is no reason for the manual to cite it with any other term. Secondly, the only way I actually found it was by going to the topic for STAVES (because I already knew how to do it), and finding MULTIPLE TIME SIGNATURES (and it's not so obvious to me that this is the right choice). There *is* a listing in the manual under M for MULTIPLE TIME SIGNATURES, but it doesn't actually link directly in my copy of the manual to the topic, but to the general topic of time signatures. This is typical of Finale's documentation -- a completely lack of coordination between the terminology and indexing in the manual the actual way things are referred to in the UI of the program itself. I'm just wondering if this has been fixed in later versions of the manual. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Has Finale's Manual's Index Improved
On 12 Mar 2009 at 17:22, Richard Yates wrote: In Fin2007 it is under Time Signatures, subheading: Multiple Time Signatures. That's the first place I would have looked if I needed to find it. Well, multiple time signatures is not equal to independent time signatures. And I can't see how a user would come up with that for this problem. The link is there in the 2003 manual, too, but I'm not sure how someone who doesn't already know what to look for is going to get there from that listing. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] rests in pick up measure
On 12 Mar 2009 at 21:14, John Howell wrote: At 8:49 PM -0400 3/12/09, David W. Fenton wrote: On 11 Mar 2009 at 17:35, John Howell wrote: What I do NOT like is the old fashioned way of having to make sure that a pickup partial-bar is subtracted from the bar at the end of a section, but that's still sometimes used. If there's a repeat, how is that avoidable? Here's an example of avoiding it, and I think it's really confusing: http://dfenton.com/Teares/Scores/HasslerIntrada.pdf (p. 3) That's exactly how I'd notate it, and I don't find it confusing at all. I would, though, omit the 2 rests in the pickup bar, unless the intent is to notate exactly what Hassler had but in modern clefs. Well, it's those two rests that have caused problems in rehearsal. It confuses people as to how we're starting, and guides their eyes to the wrong place when they repeat. Something about notating the 2 beats that our leading gives for the tempo makes it harder to read. And the repeats are harder, too (though in this case, Hassler begins the piece differently than the repeat commences). I just don't see what's added by having those half- note rests there. In the pickup bar? That's what I said. There's NO need to have them in that context, and no confusion if they're omitted. After I posted I realise I wasn't really disagreeing with you. I'm still not sure if I'm convinced there isn't utility in the standard practice (which, so far as I know, is still standard practice for music that is metrical, i.e., where phrase lengths are an important part of the musical content). Nice galliard, by the way. This whole collection is very nice (it's from the Lustgarten/Venusgarten), though we are still having ensemble problems integrating 6 players where 1 tenor player is an absolute novice (never played in a group before) and another tenor player is playing tenor for the first time (and never learned alto clef when he was playing bass -- shame on him!). Fortunately we got more than a month to get it all together. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] rests in pick up measure
John Howell wrote: What I do NOT like is the old fashioned way of having to make sure that a pickup partial-bar is subtracted from the bar at the end of a section, but that's still sometimes used. It's a good rule, but only for music that might need to be repeated ad lib - anything that might be played for dancing, processing, and the like. Play in a brass quintet for a graduation and you will immediately appreciate the rule. Totally unnecessary for concert music. Raymond Horton ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Has Finale's Manual's Index Improved
David W. Fenton wrote: I originally had written to look up INDEPENDENT TIME SIGNATURES in the manual, but realized that, knowing Finale's manuals, I should probably check to see if this was helpful or not. Whether or not the Manual has improved, the interface of the manual has improved. In the HTML version which is now the standard method, one not only has recourse to the TOC and Index, but can do a full text search, under which the search parameter Independent time signatures brings up two entries leading one directly to the relevant bits of the documentation. ns ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
De gustibus, etc. The double-dotted half note on beat one is one of the most useful and commonly used ways of notating ubiquitous swing rhythms like long note on one, short note on and of four or (when tied to an eighth at the end of the previous bar) long chain of long notes on the and of four. Carving those notes up into half-tied-to-dotted-quarter is unnecessarily cluttered. On the other hand, I think dotted rests longer than dotted eighth rests in non-compound meters are not only a pain in the ass to read but almost invariably look amateurish. I think the rationale for allowing dotted notes but disallowing dotted rests that have the same duration has to do with the psychology of playing sustaining instruments. The most important thing is that the location of the attack be absolutely, unmistakably clear to the player, and rests that show the beat pattern clearly help people place accurate attacks more easily. Cheers, - Darcy - djar...@mac.com Brooklyn, NY On 12 Mar 2009, at 8:16 PM, dhbailey wrote: David W. Fenton wrote: On 12 Mar 2009 at 7:21, Christopher Smith wrote: you ignore the opinions of every recognised expert in the field who has published a book on the subject. That HAS to count for something? For me, it counts for exactly ZILCH. I've always wondered whether these experts (whose opinions I pay attention to when they make sense to me) were experts who wrote books on notation or did they write books on notation and by dint of that fact alone have been accepted as experts. Surely we could put together an equal and opposing number of position papers on the use of dotted rests being A) clear to the performer; B) as easy to read with a little practice as any other facet of notation is for those who aren't comfortable with them; C) more helpful in terms of indicating the phrasing than using undotted rests to equal the same rhythmic space. I'm with the if it's clear and easy to read it's fine school of notation, which allows dotted rests and eschews double-dotted notes. :-) -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
Yes and furthermore, the original question was pertaining to placement of a dotted half rest starting on beat 2 of a pickup measure. Syncopated rests (held over to a stronger beat) are NEVER used in modern notation, whereas syncopated notes are commonplace. I stand by my original answer. Archaic examples from the literature are not germane to a modern context. Christopher On Mar 12, 2009, at 11:31 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: De gustibus, etc. The double-dotted half note on beat one is one of the most useful and commonly used ways of notating ubiquitous swing rhythms like long note on one, short note on and of four or (when tied to an eighth at the end of the previous bar) long chain of long notes on the and of four. Carving those notes up into half-tied-to-dotted- quarter is unnecessarily cluttered. On the other hand, I think dotted rests longer than dotted eighth rests in non-compound meters are not only a pain in the ass to read but almost invariably look amateurish. I think the rationale for allowing dotted notes but disallowing dotted rests that have the same duration has to do with the psychology of playing sustaining instruments. The most important thing is that the location of the attack be absolutely, unmistakably clear to the player, and rests that show the beat pattern clearly help people place accurate attacks more easily. Cheers, - Darcy - djar...@mac.com Brooklyn, NY On 12 Mar 2009, at 8:16 PM, dhbailey wrote: David W. Fenton wrote: On 12 Mar 2009 at 7:21, Christopher Smith wrote: you ignore the opinions of every recognised expert in the field who has published a book on the subject. That HAS to count for something? For me, it counts for exactly ZILCH. I've always wondered whether these experts (whose opinions I pay attention to when they make sense to me) were experts who wrote books on notation or did they write books on notation and by dint of that fact alone have been accepted as experts. Surely we could put together an equal and opposing number of position papers on the use of dotted rests being A) clear to the performer; B) as easy to read with a little practice as any other facet of notation is for those who aren't comfortable with them; C) more helpful in terms of indicating the phrasing than using undotted rests to equal the same rhythmic space. I'm with the if it's clear and easy to read it's fine school of notation, which allows dotted rests and eschews double-dotted notes. :-) -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: rests in pick up measure
On 12 Mar 2009 at 23:46, Christopher Smith wrote: Yes and furthermore, the original question was pertaining to placement of a dotted half rest starting on beat 2 of a pickup measure. Syncopated rests (held over to a stronger beat) are NEVER used in modern notation, whereas syncopated notes are commonplace. I stand by my original answer. Archaic examples from the literature are not germane to a modern context. Was anyone arguing for dotted half rest in the context of the original post? Well, perhaps I was, in that I could conceive of a situation where it could make sense (what if the instruments that were playing were all playing a dotted half?). Also, I said quarter plus half would be acceptable but half plus quarter would not, *unless* it could be justfied as conforming to the uniform rhythm played by all the non-resting instruments. Again, in general, I would think you'd want to avoid dotted half, or half/quarter in that context, but I can certainly conceive of situations in which I could justify it. Context, context, context. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
