Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On Jan 20, 2010, at 5:37 AM, David W. Fenton wrote: I'm stuck working with Finale 2003, and am in the midst of doing a whole bunch of editions for my viol consort with lyrics. My annoyance is the whole issue with spacing of melismas -- i.e., if there's a run of 16ths, if the first has a syllable on it, the full space for the syllable is allocated to the first 16th, even though the 16ths should be spaced normally, because it's a melisma. I'm sorry I didn't notice this post earlier, David. If you're not already done, I would recommend you try turning off music spacing for lyrics, then respace the music, and see how that works for you. (Options Document Options Music Spacing uncheck the box for Lyrics. In earlier versions, I think it was a separate menu item called Music Spacing Options.) As one who is fussy about spacing, I find that letting the program space for lyrics, even when it's done correctly, leaves much to be desired. To get the results I want, I generally go back and forth between having lyrics checked or unchecked in the Music Spacing Options. But honestly, I find that more often I'd rather turn it off and make space manually afterward than leave it on and have to undo ugly spacing. This is all the more true in music that is heavily melismatic, where for most of the piece you'd rather not have the music spacing algorithm looking at the lyric syllables at all. For such a piece, I'd space the entire thing with lyrics unchecked. Then if there are one or two measures where the lyrics collide, go back and respace just those measures with lyrics checked. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On Jan 20, 2010, at 8:33 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: Why isn't this fixed in Finale? Surely it's something Sibelius does by default, since it's so braindead wrong in Finale! Can you describe algorithmically what you think the fixed program should do? My feeling about lyric spacing is that it's an artificial intelligence type task which can't be easily formulized. Even if they redid the algorithm so that it was only considered a collision if the lyric collides with another lyric, as opposed to the horizontal position of a note with no syllable, you're still going to get sub-optimal results. I couldn't even describe a feature that would result in lyrics that I wouldn't still go back and fuss with sometimes. (Though I could name several small improvements) mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On Jan 22, 2010, at 1:02 AM, dc wrote: In most cases, if you have a decent point-size for your lyrics, ignoring the lyrics simply won't give you enough space to do things correctly. In other words, you won't have one or two measures where the lyrics collide, but more likely 90% of your measures. The music will simply be too tight, unless, of course, you have very generous values in the music spacing options, or, as I said, very small lyrics. In the paragraph you're responding to, I was referring specifically to music which is very melismatic, which is what I thought perhaps David F was dealing with. Another type of music where music spacing is best done with lyrics unchecked is where there's piano accompaniment that's consistently denser than the vocal line (eg, 16th notes in the piano against quarter notes in the voice). I have various other techniques for generating layout and measure widths for music that needs more space for lyrics (which I've discussed at length on this list, some time in the distant past). I certainly didn't mean to suggest I'd leave lyrics to collide nor that I'd shrink them to tiny size in order to avoid it. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On 1/22/2010 3:17 AM, Mark D Lew wrote: algorithm looking at the lyric syllables at all. For such a piece, I'd space the entire thing with lyrics unchecked. Then if there are one or two measures where the lyrics collide, go back and respace just those measures with lyrics checked. This brings to mind a feature request I made a few years back: spacing styles, which could be applied to measures like staff styles. There are many instances where spacing as a document-wide setting is clearly inappropriate, and having to remember to (a) change the setting, (b) space the problem measures, and then (c) change the setting back is a hassle. We should be able to set the document spacing for something like avoid lyric collisions and then apply a style to melismatic measures with avoid lyric collisions unset. Then we could space the whole piece at once. This came up in my case when I was doing a piece which moved mostly in moderato or allegro quarter notes, but which had one section in largo 4/8. For that section, I wanted wider spacing to make the change to an eighth note pulse more obvious, and I had to go through the same gymnastics of remembering to manually space that section differently. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On 22 Jan 2010 at 8:26, dc wrote: David W. Fenton écrit: It seems I'm out of luck on this, as I don't see any way to hide a syllable in WinFin 2003. My memory isn't good enough to recall when hidden characters were introduced. Is this not a Style available (as italics, or bold, or underline)? Ctrl+Shift+H is the keyboard shortcut. I don't see any capability to hide lyrics in Staff Style definition. If hidding doesn't work, you can also reduce more or less drastically the size of the font. A little bit more work yet if you change only the melismatic syllables. [Ctrl+Shift+,] I did it the hard way, removing the offending syllable, respacing, then putting it back with click assignment. After one measure where this caused orphan hyphens, I changed to using Type in Score to replace the offending syllables with the | symbol, respacing, then typing the original syllables back in. This was much easier than the other method (the text in question is quite repetitive, and it was quite hard to find exactly the right repetition in the very hard-to- use click assignment dialog -- has that been improved any at all?). Hiding selected syllables would certainly be easier, but this is good enough if my creaky old Finale version won't support it. It's not like I encounter this problem very often -- my viol consort doesn't do a lot of Monteverdian music! -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On 22 Jan 2010 at 0:17, Mark D Lew wrote: On Jan 20, 2010, at 5:37 AM, David W. Fenton wrote: I'm stuck working with Finale 2003, and am in the midst of doing a whole bunch of editions for my viol consort with lyrics. My annoyance is the whole issue with spacing of melismas -- i.e., if there's a run of 16ths, if the first has a syllable on it, the full space for the syllable is allocated to the first 16th, even though the 16ths should be spaced normally, because it's a melisma. I'm sorry I didn't notice this post earlier, David. If you're not already done, I would recommend you try turning off music spacing for lyrics, then respace the music, and see how that works for you. That's what I originally did, but I didn't like the spacing at all. Besides, some of the measures have melismas and syllabic passages mixed in, so that's unsatisfactory. I didn't try partial music selection for spacing, but it appears that music spacing does not honor partial measure selection, so that just wouldn't work. (Options Document Options Music Spacing uncheck the box for Lyrics. In earlier versions, I think it was a separate menu item called Music Spacing Options.) As one who is fussy about spacing, I find that letting the program space for lyrics, even when it's done correctly, leaves much to be desired. 99% of the default spacing is good enough for my standards. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On 22 Jan 2010 at 0:24, Mark D Lew wrote: On Jan 20, 2010, at 8:33 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: Why isn't this fixed in Finale? Surely it's something Sibelius does by default, since it's so braindead wrong in Finale! Can you describe algorithmically what you think the fixed program should do? For a syllable that is attached to a note followed by another note (or several notes) lacking syllables, the width of the syllable should be allocated to all the notes available before the next syllable to the right. It looks pretty simple to me, actually (and I'm looking at it as a computer programmer...). And if it were in a plugin, I wouldn't mind that, either (remember that automatic syllable extensions were not introduced until Finale 2004, so I'm using the plugin for that, and I'm fine with it, even though it makes mistakes that have to be corrected -- it's still better than doing it manually). My feeling about lyric spacing is that it's an artificial intelligence type task which can't be easily formulized. Even if they redid the algorithm so that it was only considered a collision if the lyric collides with another lyric, as opposed to the horizontal position of a note with no syllable, you're still going to get sub-optimal results. I'm not that picky, though I don't produce the stunningly beautiful scores that folks like Dennis Collins do (I'm not sure I've ever seen your engraving, but my bet is you're much pickier than I am -- I'm just trying to get performable parts and scores ready before rehearsals begin). I couldn't even describe a feature that would result in lyrics that I wouldn't still go back and fuss with sometimes. (Though I could name several small improvements) In my experience, it is only when I try to jam too much music into too little space that I get bad lyrics spacing. In doing editions for my viol consort, the preference is for two-page scores or parts (though three pages are fine for works with movement breaks, we don't do very many of those). -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On 22 Jan 2010 at 1:43, Mark D Lew wrote: In the paragraph you're responding to, I was referring specifically to music which is very melismatic, which is what I thought perhaps David F was dealing with. The music I was working with was Samuel Scheidt. Here's the current unproofread score (unproofed for notes, layout is probably only going to be tweaked slightly): http://tearesofthemuses.com/Editions/Scores/Scheidt-Laudates/ It's a mix of syllabic and melismatic, and very crowded spacing (and very small) because I must fit the music on two pages per piece. We used an earlier messy draft, laid out in 10 minutes before I had to run to rehearsal, and it was good enough for the instrumentalists (and we've done this music before, so it's not unfamiliar territory), but this semester we're collaborating with two professional singers (as part of a grant from NYU -- see http://tearesofthemuses.com), and the materials for the singers have to be decent. I'll probably produce a singer's score that is larger and occupies 3 pages per piece. Of other music we're doing, I have to create an organist's score, too, so I'm ending up needing multiple layouts. It's a pain, but it's the only way to insure that everybody's on the same page in terms of our peformance editing (some of this is also done because of clef issues). -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On 22 Jan 2010 at 11:05, dc wrote: I wonder why they don't implement this feature. It would put them way ahead of Sibelius for a change... How well does Sibelius do with lyrics spacing in melismas and otherwise? -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Staff Groups
On 22 Jan 2010 at 8:29, dc wrote: David W. Fenton écrit: What am I doing wrong? First question is optimization. You should make your changes in your groups BEFORE optimizing. Is that what you did? No, that was the problem -- I forgot the systems were optimized (without removing staves). This one always bites me. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On 1/22/2010 9:03 AM, dc wrote: I can only second that request. Is there any place where one can officially do so? Well, you can submit something to the support people through http://makemusic.custhelp.com My feature request was made in January 2007; the reference number is 070322-041052. You can tell them that you're agreeing with the ideas in this request. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] [OT] family name conventions
*very* off-topic but maybe of interest to people researching composers, a post about naming conventions. anyone able to comment on asian names and differences between different asian countries? i know often japanese say their family name first (also when writing?) and that chinese living in the west often take on american-ish names. i have long preferred to use family and given name for clarity, but is the idea of first and last names a regional thing? are they referred to differently outside of canada, western europe and USA? CORDIO is the last name. CARLO is the first name and MARIA is the middle name (sometimes one says that we have several first names). It is not unusual for people in latin-language-group countries to have both two or even more middle names, just so you know. Maria (or Marie in French) is a very common middle name (also for men!). In everyday interpellation (and if you're on informal terms with them, of course), you would call people by their first name (in this case Carlo), although the official name would be Carlo Maria CORDIO. In Scandinavia, however, it is more common to use both first name and middle name in everyday use, than only first name. Scandinavian often have 2 last names, although officially one of those is considered a middle name (unless hyphenated, then they are considered one last name). (which is a problem for me having von Zzz as a last name, here in Scandinavia, von is now my second middle name, and I'm listed in the telephone catalogue as Zzz, Xxx Y Von (Yyy being my not-used middle name). In many Eastern European countries, the convention is to give your last name first: JANICKI Krzysztof Pavlovich (Pavlovich being the middle name... ficticious name, by the way...) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] [OT] national anthem scores (melody+lyrics)
anyone know where i can get ahold of an anthology of national hymns? i only want the melodies and lyrics, would greatly prefer a source with no harmonizations. if possible, also historical alternate versions (e.g. changes made during wars etc.) online or otherwise free or inexpensive are best. what would also be great is if they were available also as midi files... i came across this source with brief histories as well but i am trying to avoid having to transcribe them into finale. and a source with all in the same standardized format will help me make comparative studies of the form and implied harmonic progressions. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] national anthem scores (melody+lyrics)
i came across this source... euh, this one: http://www.nationalanthems.info ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] national anthem scores (melody+lyrics)
Are there any specific ones you want? I was booked to play a few anthems at a ceremony last year and had to arrange everything for brass trio (trpt, horn; trombone) Cheers, Lawrence 2010/1/22 SN jef chippewa shirl...@newmusicnotation.com i came across this source... euh, this one: http://www.nationalanthems.info ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- Lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] national anthem scores (melody+lyrics)
whatever you have! i want to compare the forms and motifs for a project that will exacerbate the implicit character and similarities of many national anthems by a sort of process that multiplies everything by everything else. if i could get a copy that would be fantastic, thanks! Are there any specific ones you want? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] national anthem scores (melody+lyrics)
Lawrence Yates wrote: Are there any specific ones you want? I was booked to play a few anthems at a ceremony last year and had to arrange everything for brass trio (trpt, horn; trombone) There is an internet site NationalAnthems.us offering lots of anthems incl. lyrics and - more or less - reasonable keyboard reduction scores; see http://www.nationalanthems.us/ Cheers, Lawrence 2010/1/22 SN jef chippewashirl...@newmusicnotation.com i came across this source... euh, this one: http://www.nationalanthems.info ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- Christian Mondrup, Archive Editor WIMA: Werner Icking Music Archive http://icking-music-archive.org/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] [OT] national anthem scores (melody+lyrics)
They are all here: http://themes.mididb.com/anthems/ with no lyrics. These versions are fully harmonized but the timing is clean and the melodies are on separate staffs so it's easy to copy them out. MIDIs and lyrics are here: http://www.nationalanthems.info/ but the MIDI files need a little tweaking (set the key correctly, etc.) -Original Message- From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of Lawrence Yates Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 8:07 AM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] [OT] national anthem scores (melody+lyrics) Are there any specific ones you want? I was booked to play a few anthems at a ceremony last year and had to arrange everything for brass trio (trpt, horn; trombone) Cheers, Lawrence 2010/1/22 SN jef chippewa shirl...@newmusicnotation.com i came across this source... euh, this one: http://www.nationalanthems.info ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- Lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Re: deleting measures without affecting numbering
Apply a staff style with Hide Staff checked, and set measure widths to 0. Brian Sent from my iPhone, so please forgive the typos and brevity. On Jan 22, 2010, at 10:00 AM, finale-requ...@shsu.edu wrote: How do I delete (or insert) measures without affecting all the measure number regions that appears afterwards? (I have alot of those regions...) Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: deleting measures without affecting numbering
Brian Williams wrote: Apply a staff style with Hide Staff checked, and set measure widths to 0. Yes, that's what I did. Thanks! (At another place where I needed to insert measures for mid-measure repeats, I created the repeats as a custom font and inserted them graphically in mid-measure. I didn't have the time to adjust all subsequent measure number regions.) I will probably make a plug-in to adjust measure number region offsets for a whole region in the future, since this becomes impossibly time consuming for multi-movement files. Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Music scanning conversion quality?
How is scan conversion quality nowadays? Is there any product available that with reasonable accuracy will trace scores to MusicXML, including notes, articulations, beaming, slurs, and expressions? (Lyrics is not necessary.) Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Music scanning conversion quality?
Jari Williamsson wrote: How is scan conversion quality nowadays? Is there any product available that with reasonable accuracy will trace scores to MusicXML, including notes, articulations, beaming, slurs, and expressions? (Lyrics is not necessary.) To the best of my knowledge Sharpeye remains the best for accuracy, and it will scan to MusicXML. More details can be found at http://store.recordare.com/sharpeye2.html which also has a downloadable demo to try out. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Music scanning conversion quality?
On 22 Jan 2010 at 21:16, Jari Williamsson wrote: How is scan conversion quality nowadays? Is there any product available that with reasonable accuracy will trace scores to MusicXML, including notes, articulations, beaming, slurs, and expressions? (Lyrics is not necessary.) If you're scanning music that was engraved by computer, you'll likely get quite good results. If you have a PDF, even better -- I've had really great results importing PDFs downloaded from IMSLP using the SmartScore Lite that came with Finale 2003 (so, very outdated). Yes, it makes many layout and accidental mistakes, but not enough that it's worth it to re-enter the music. I would expect, though, that the music that really needs to be imported is going to be old editions that are just not going to scan well at all. I wouldn't even bother with anything other than a source that was computer engraved. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] national anthem scores (melody+lyrics)
Not exactly what you're looking for, but of historical value I have a 6.54 mb PDF of Raccolta di Inni Nazionali published in 1895 - score meant for piano (i.e., harmonized, but what I'd call no frills renditions), a few with lyrics, if you're interested. The US anthem has differences from what we're used to today, so I imagine some of others may as well. Chile, Argentina, Portugal, Paraguay, Norway, Turkey many other rarely seen ones in this compilation. Let me know if you'd like to have the PDF via email. -Cecil Rigby Liberty, SC - Original Message - From: SN jef chippewa shirl...@newmusicnotation.com To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 10:54 AM Subject: [Finale] [OT] national anthem scores (melody+lyrics) anyone know where i can get ahold of an anthology of national hymns? i only want the melodies and lyrics, would greatly prefer a source with no harmonizations. if possible, also historical alternate versions (e.g. changes made during wars etc.) online or otherwise free or inexpensive are best. what would also be great is if they were available also as midi files... i came across this source with brief histories as well but i am trying to avoid having to transcribe them into finale. and a source with all in the same standardized format will help me make comparative studies of the form and implied harmonic progressions. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] national anthem scores (melody+lyrics)
Cecil, I'd love to have a copy of it if you're extending the offer to others on the list. It sounds like a neat edition. Ryan On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 2:56 PM, Cecil Rigby rig...@att.net wrote: Not exactly what you're looking for, but of historical value I have a 6.54 mb PDF of Raccolta di Inni Nazionali published in 1895 - score meant for piano (i.e., harmonized, but what I'd call no frills renditions), a few with lyrics, if you're interested. The US anthem has differences from what we're used to today, so I imagine some of others may as well. Chile, Argentina, Portugal, Paraguay, Norway, Turkey many other rarely seen ones in this compilation. Let me know if you'd like to have the PDF via email. -Cecil Rigby Liberty, SC - Original Message - From: SN jef chippewa shirl...@newmusicnotation.com To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 10:54 AM Subject: [Finale] [OT] national anthem scores (melody+lyrics) anyone know where i can get ahold of an anthology of national hymns? i only want the melodies and lyrics, would greatly prefer a source with no harmonizations. if possible, also historical alternate versions (e.g. changes made during wars etc.) online or otherwise free or inexpensive are best. what would also be great is if they were available also as midi files... i came across this source with brief histories as well but i am trying to avoid having to transcribe them into finale. and a source with all in the same standardized format will help me make comparative studies of the form and implied harmonic progressions. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] national anthem scores (melody+lyrics)
no problem. just sent via private email- -C - Original Message - From: Ryan ry.squa...@gmail.com To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 6:35 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] [OT] national anthem scores (melody+lyrics) Cecil, I'd love to have a copy of it if you're extending the offer to others on the list. It sounds like a neat edition. Ryan On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 2:56 PM, Cecil Rigby rig...@att.net wrote: Not exactly what you're looking for, but of historical value I have a 6.54 mb PDF of Raccolta di Inni Nazionali published in 1895 - score meant for piano (i.e., harmonized, but what I'd call no frills renditions), a few with lyrics, if you're interested. The US anthem has differences from what we're used to today, so I imagine some of others may as well. Chile, Argentina, Portugal, Paraguay, Norway, Turkey many other rarely seen ones in this compilation. Let me know if you'd like to have the PDF via email. -Cecil Rigby Liberty, SC ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] national anthem scores (melody+lyrics)
Cecil Rigby wrote: Not exactly what you're looking for, but of historical value I have a 6.54 mb PDF of Raccolta di Inni Nazionali published in 1895 - score meant for piano (i.e., harmonized, but what I'd call no frills renditions), a few with lyrics, if you're interested. The US anthem has differences from what we're used to today, so I imagine some of others may as well. Chile, Argentina, Portugal, Paraguay, Norway, Turkey many other rarely seen ones in this compilation. Let me know if you'd like to have the PDF via email. I would love a copy too. Thanks! Barbara ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
At 12:24 AM -0800 1/22/10, Mark D Lew wrote: On Jan 20, 2010, at 8:33 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: Why isn't this fixed in Finale? Surely it's something Sibelius does by default, since it's so braindead wrong in Finale! Can you describe algorithmically what you think the fixed program should do? No way, not even on a bet! But I can say that of the notation programs I've used, Sibelius has the best lyrics handling hands down, both the easiest to enter and the best to look at by default. So I guess my answer would be that the fixed program should do what Sibelius already does. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On 22 Jan 2010 at 20:13, John Howell wrote: At 12:24 AM -0800 1/22/10, Mark D Lew wrote: On Jan 20, 2010, at 8:33 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: Why isn't this fixed in Finale? Surely it's something Sibelius does by default, since it's so braindead wrong in Finale! Can you describe algorithmically what you think the fixed program should do? No way, not even on a bet! Isn't it actually quite easy to describe how melismas should be handled? But I can say that of the notation programs I've used, Sibelius has the best lyrics handling hands down, both the easiest to enter and the best to look at by default. So I guess my answer would be that the fixed program should do what Sibelius already does. Sibelius handles melismas without any problems? -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] family name conventions
At 3:13 PM +0100 1/22/10, SN jef chippewa wrote: *very* off-topic but maybe of interest to people researching composers, a post about naming conventions. anyone able to comment on asian names and differences between different asian countries? i know often japanese say their family name first (also when writing?) and that chinese living in the west often take on american-ish names. As it happens I have a fair number of foreign students. I believe it is typical of Asian cultures to put the family name first. It is in Japanese, Chinese and Korean, although I'm not sure about Viet Namese. Our Registrar regularizes them all using the Western conventions. And also yes, a good number of Korean and other Asian students do have an Americanized name as well as one from their own culture. Of course in the U.S. we are so mixed up that we are used to this kind of thing. And it comes as something of a shock when, during the Summer Olympics, we see teams from other countries--the Eastern European women's gymnasts, for example--all with similar skeletal structure and facial features. Our melting pot has often had serious lumps in it, but over the decades it's done its job! i have long preferred to use family and given name for clarity, but is the idea of first and last names a regional thing? are they referred to differently outside of canada, western europe and USA? Definitely regional, and definitely tied to ethnic and language groupings. In Scandinavia, however, it is more common to use both first name and middle name in everyday use, than only first name. Scandinavian often have 2 last names, although officially one of those is considered a middle name (unless hyphenated, then they are considered one last name). This is also the case with Latin American names, in which both family names are combined. I'm most familiar with this for Mexican students, and the names are often connected by y (meaning and). And when one works with German baroque and classical names, for example, one learns that very often the first name is so common within a family that the members of that family are known by their middle names--Sebastian Bach for J.S., Emanuel Bach for C.P.E., Christian Bach for J.C. In many Eastern European countries, the convention is to give your last name first: JANICKI Krzysztof Pavlovich (Pavlovich being the middle name... ficticious name, by the way...) Certainly true in Hungary, where the composers would be listed as BARTOK Bela, or KODALY Zoltan. I didn't realize that until we played some music printed in Hungary. Voila!!! And since, I've used that correct form in our printed programs. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
At 8:23 PM -0500 1/22/10, David W. Fenton wrote: On 22 Jan 2010 at 20:13, John Howell wrote: At 12:24 AM -0800 1/22/10, Mark D Lew wrote: On Jan 20, 2010, at 8:33 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: Why isn't this fixed in Finale? Surely it's something Sibelius does by default, since it's so braindead wrong in Finale! Can you describe algorithmically what you think the fixed program should do? No way, not even on a bet! Isn't it actually quite easy to describe how melismas should be handled? But I can say that of the notation programs I've used, Sibelius has the best lyrics handling hands down, both the easiest to enter and the best to look at by default. So I guess my answer would be that the fixed program should do what Sibelius already does. Sibelius handles melismas without any problems? All I can say is that I haven't seen anything that I hated, which means its handling is pretty transparent. But I'll try something and let you know. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On Jan 22, 2010, at 5:52 AM, David W. Fenton wrote: I'm not that picky, though I don't produce the stunningly beautiful scores that folks like Dennis Collins do (I'm not sure I've ever seen your engraving, but my bet is you're much pickier than I am -- I'm just trying to get performable parts and scores ready before rehearsals begin). I have different standards for different contexts. I'm a big believer in increasing readability for vocal music to be sung from the page, even if it entails some non-standard practices. Also, I find that readability and beauty are not always the same thing, and in many contexts I'm willing to sacrifice the latter for the former. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On Jan 22, 2010, at 5:13 PM, John Howell wrote: No way, not even on a bet! But I can say that of the notation programs I've used, Sibelius has the best lyrics handling hands down, both the easiest to enter and the best to look at by default. Just curious. Supposing Sibelius does put syllables not where you want them. Is the process of tweaking them easier, harder or the same as in Finale? mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On Jan 22, 2010, at 5:52 AM, David W. Fenton wrote: For a syllable that is attached to a note followed by another note (or several notes) lacking syllables, the width of the syllable should be allocated to all the notes available before the next syllable to the right. It looks pretty simple to me, actually (and I'm looking at it as a computer programmer...). I'm trying to think seriously about this and try to formulate the process that I regularly do by instinct and intuition, and this part is the hardest problem. If I can leave the music spacing undisturbed and fit the syllables comfortably by letting them overlap with neighboring note stacks, then of course that's the answer. But there are limits to how far I'd push a syllable that aren't simply first this, then that. Frequently I'll want to compromise by nudging the syllables some and nudging the beat chart some. I know it when I see it, but I'm not sure how I'd describe the process. Is it a simple ratio of music perturbation to lyric perturbation? Maybe, but I don't think so. Here's another issue. If I've got four sixteenth notes grouped with a syllable on each, and three of the syllables are short ones that fit just fine but one has a long syllable that doesn't fit, then I have to add space. But I don't want to add space just around the one note and leave the other three as close as they were. Again, I want to compromise and spread all four sixteenth notes out, not exactly equally but closer to equal than to just giving space to the one with the fat syllable. Then once the notes are set, I'll nudge the syllables around between the four. One thing that will surely never make it into an algorithm is that I'm more willing to move a syllable in the direction that centers its vowel on the note than the opposite. So for example if the lyric is three I'm marginally more willing to nudge that leftward and less willing to nudge it rightward than I would be otherwise, and if the lyric is eight then vice versa. This isn't due to any prescriptive principle, but rather a pattern of following what I consider better readability. For similar reasons, I generally nudge any syllable ending with a comma or period to the left so that the letters alone are centered. (This latter *could* be built into the program's algorithm.) mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On 22 Jan 2010 at 22:20, Mark D Lew wrote: On Jan 22, 2010, at 5:52 AM, David W. Fenton wrote: I'm not that picky, though I don't produce the stunningly beautiful scores that folks like Dennis Collins do (I'm not sure I've ever seen your engraving, but my bet is you're much pickier than I am -- I'm just trying to get performable parts and scores ready before rehearsals begin). I have different standards for different contexts. I'm a big believer in increasing readability for vocal music to be sung from the page, even if it entails some non-standard practices. Also, I find that readability and beauty are not always the same thing, and in many contexts I'm willing to sacrifice the latter for the former. Well, I'm producing separate scores/parts for the singers and the viol players. Indeed, in some cases, I may not produce a score for singers/organist at all, as the source editions are fine. In the case of the Scheidt, the only reasons I produced an edition were: 1. to get the top two parts out of treble clef 8ba -- it's not that the players in the group can't read that just fine, it's just that when you're accustomed to playing in alto clef in that range, the one- step difference in line/space can mess with your head, and cause slips when the performance nerves kick in. We try to limit our bass viol parts to bass and alto clef, and the tenor viol parts to alto clef alone. Given that two of the four main players have to switch instruments (one bass player doubles on treble, and for this concert, I'm doubling on bass and tenor, after 18 months of playing tenor exclusively), keeping the clefs to the minimum is a good thing. Again, it's not that we *can't* do it, it's just that we'll play better if we don't have to play in 3 or 4 different clefs on 2 different instruments each (I've done it and it's not fun unless you have lots of time to get comfortable with the music). 2. since we're performing many of the pieces with 4 viols and the music involved has 4 independent viol parts plus the continuo line, the bottom bass viol player has to double as continuo bass, so in the case of the Scheidt, I was combining the continuo bass line (when the tutti group isn't playing, just the organ and singers) into a single part for the bass player (who happens to be me, and in this case has to tune the bottom string down a step to cello C, which I don't mind doing as it's just not that hard to deal with). In any event, there's no real reason that the singers would need to use my edition, except for the phrasing that's been incorporated (just breath marks to show where the phrases end). In the case of other pieces, my editions are more readable than the source editions, so I'm preparing separate scores for the singers/organist. For most of the pieces, the viols are playing from parts or from half scores, where there's a part with a 2-system part with the top two or the bottom two parts. In other cases when the music has fewer or more parts and I have to do something different, but the point is, each piece is different and what I'm preparing is based on what takes the least work to get the best performance. Singers don't need to worry about page turns, but the organist does (though not as severely as viol players, since the organist can omit the bass line at the page turn and let the continuo viol player carry the load for a couple of beats). In some cases I'll produce a single score for singers and organist, and in others, I'll produce a kindergarten-sized score for the singers (joke), and a part for the organist that's got reduced-size staves above and decently-planned page turns. I often wonder how much work linked parts would save me, but I strongly doubt they'd save me that much work, as I'd still end up needing to create 2-4 different scores for different purposes. It's a good thing I like doing this, though the one disadvantage is that I have the frustration in early rehearsals that I know the music as a whole better than anyone else (even if I can't yet play my own part 100% reliably)! -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On 23 Jan 2010 at 1:39, David W. Fenton wrote: Given that two of the four main players have to switch instruments (one bass player doubles on treble, and for this concert, I'm doubling on bass and tenor, after 18 months of playing tenor exclusively), Actually, it's two of the bass players doubling on treble, and me doubling tenor and bass. Only one of our players will be playing only one instrument on this concert, i.e., bass. (I'm sure you're all thrilled to hear it!) -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
At 10:24 PM -0800 1/22/10, Mark D Lew wrote: On Jan 22, 2010, at 5:13 PM, John Howell wrote: No way, not even on a bet! But I can say that of the notation programs I've used, Sibelius has the best lyrics handling hands down, both the easiest to enter and the best to look at by default. Just curious. Supposing Sibelius does put syllables not where you want them. Is the process of tweaking them easier, harder or the same as in Finale? Good question, and I've never tried! Just did, though, and it was extremely easy. Just select a syllable and move left or right with the arrow keys. The notes did not move. The notes do move, slightly, as the lyrics are entered, to space the syllables well, and the reason I'd never tried is that the default always looks pretty good. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
