Re: [Finale] OT: Electronic Keyboards and Organ Samples
So, I'm not getting anywhere on this that's useful. Here's a thread on OrganForum that I started: http://tinyurl.com/32gdbhk = http://www.organforum.com/forums/showthread.php?14300-Creating-an- electronic-portative-organ-for-continuo-in-small-ensembles Does any of that clarify any of the issues? There apparently aren't any keyboards with embedded CPUs that can run the software necessary to play things like the Hauptwerk sounds. I can see having the flexibility of using any old computer, but wouldn't it be easier to be able to carry a keyboard without needing the computer? I haven't yet posted on the Hauptwerk forums, as I'm gradually trying to read through all the existing content to see if anything touches on this issue. If anyone knows anything about that, let me know. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Electronic Keyboards and Organ Samples
On 2010/07/18, at 17:43, David W. Fenton wrote: Has anyone mucked about with using high-quality samples of pipe organs with relatively simple keyboards? My viol consort may need a rehearsal instrument while the pipe organ is being rebuilt, and I was wondering if perhaps there are proper 5- octave keyboards (i.e., F-to-F, not C-to-C) into which high-quality samples can be loaded. Since we're using it for continuo, we'd need only an 8' flute stop. Any ideas on this? Hi David, I don't think you will ever be satisfied as long as the sound comes out of speaker(s) unless you spent a lot on something like Bose L1 system for sound output. Can harpsichord not substitute for the time being? On the other hand, I knew an organist who used to use a MIDI controller with Roland SoundCanvas on live until he got his own Positive. He had a good ear, and EQed using his own PA system to blend with the Early music chamber ensemble. It is possible, but the player has to know how to EQ depending on the venue/room. In fact it's a consistent problem for us who use amplification. I, too, do EQ my rig before the show every venue, trying to sound my flute as seamless as possible. -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Greater Boston http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Electronic Keyboards and Organ Samples
On 20 Jul 2010 at 2:06, A-NO-NE Music wrote: On 2010/07/18, at 17:43, David W. Fenton wrote: Has anyone mucked about with using high-quality samples of pipe organs with relatively simple keyboards? My viol consort may need a rehearsal instrument while the pipe organ is being rebuilt, and I was wondering if perhaps there are proper 5- octave keyboards (i.e., F-to-F, not C-to-C) into which high-quality samples can be loaded. Since we're using it for continuo, we'd need only an 8' flute stop. Any ideas on this? I don't think you will ever be satisfied as long as the sound comes out of speaker(s) unless you spent a lot on something like Bose L1 system for sound output. Can harpsichord not substitute for the time being? We have harpsichord problems that are just as bad as our organ problems in terms of needing repair (the only playable one is at 440 and has a cracked sounding board; we're switching permanently to 415 this year, and the 415 harpsichord is unplayable). And it doesn't substitute in terms of rehearsal at all -- if you practice with harpsichord, you have to perform with it, because it's a completely different animal for the continuo player. You can't play the same notes, you can't time them the same, everything is completely different between organ and harpsichord continuo playing, chiefly because of the decay of harpsichord. On the other hand, I knew an organist who used to use a MIDI controller with Roland SoundCanvas on live until he got his own Positive. He had a good ear, and EQed using his own PA system to blend with the Early music chamber ensemble. It is possible, but the player has to know how to EQ depending on the venue/room. In any event, this is not for performance (we'd still do a rental for that, as we have in the past), but for rehearsals. Last year we rehearsed with a cheapo $100 Casio, and it was really not terribly helpful, though the organist brilliantly adapted for the two performances (the first time she had played an actual organ in our program). In fact it's a consistent problem for us who use amplification. I, too, do EQ my rig before the show every venue, trying to sound my flute as seamless as possible. I am not the one pushing for this -- I think we should just get by in rehearsals with what we had last time. There is also something of a push to use an electronic instrument in performance (one-time expense of acquiring it ends the recurring expense of the rental), but I said I'd leave the group if that was contemplated as anything other than an emergency measure, since I don't see how an early music group can have any credibility at all if they are using electronic instruments. I have repeatedly made the case that the big problem with this is speakers and having to adjust for every room. For organ continuo, you basically want a nice compact sound source, but it still has to have certain characteristics. Here's a YouTube illustrating exactly the problem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-OznRBvU3E That is the Roland C-230, which miked up close sounds just great, but heard in a larger room like this, it sounds little better than a Hammond organ or any other primitive electronic organ from 40 years ago, before note-by-note sampling. Ultimately, the problem is that you can't substitute producing the sound from 61 pipes with producing the sound through a single speaker. I've been testing the Hauptwerk sounds and they are great, but they bring my computer to its knees, so it's obvious that even to hook up a keyboard and play through that (speakers aside), would require more computer than I have available (though I haven't tried my Win7 computer because it has less memory, though it's a better quality computer). I was hoping there were keyboards that the sound sample could be loaded into without need for an external computer. Do you know of anything like that? And does VSTI have anything to do with that? There are VSTI versions of the Hauptwerk sounds, so if there are keyboards that can play those, that would work. But I just don't know a damned thing about any of this any more. Everything I knew about this stuff would have fit in a thimble in 1999, and now even that tiny amount is completely out of date. I'm currently doing some investigation in organ-oriented forums, where there are likely others with the same needs. I'll report back on what I find. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Electronic Keyboards and Organ Samples
At 2:06 AM -0400 7/20/10, A-NO-NE Music wrote: In fact it's a consistent problem for us who use amplification. I, too, do EQ my rig before the show every venue, trying to sound my flute as seamless as possible. Yes, when one uses amplification, the amplification itself become part of your instrument, and must be treated just as carefully. Same thing for singers. The difference is that you realize it, and many people do not! John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Electronic Keyboards and Organ Samples
On 18 Jul 2010 at 23:03, Noel Stoutenburg wrote: I don't have any specific experience with what you're looking for, although I strongly suspect that it does, in fact exist, but that it when you find it, it will be an expensive piece of equipment to purchase. My best suggestions: check with the local Allen or Rogers organ dealers, and see if they might have an instrument you could rent for a period of time. Even their smallest units are apt to be bigger than what you want, but it will probably come closest to providing the sound your looking for at the best price. Well, this all started because somebody suggested we get a Roland C- 230. It has 36 organ stops, which is overkill, and from listening the demos on YouTube, it sounds like it is not using note-by-note synthesis. The demos don't really give any kind of idea of what it would sound like in an ensemble (and the violin/harpsichord example is just really dreadful sounding, electric violin accompanied by electric harpsichord). But the price of this unit is way out of scale with what we need. I've tried out the Hauptwerk sample/player, and have downloaded a shareware single-manual organ that is quite good sounding. I can play it from my keyboard, though I haven't yet figured out how to drive it from Finale (which is not really necessary, of course). The problem is this solution requires: 1. keyboard 2. computer 3. speakers ...whereas I was hoping for something a little more complete, and with no need for a standalone computer. My guess is that samples at the Hauptwerk level of quality don't play in the kind of hardware that keyboards come with. I don't quite understand why the products fall into this kind of segmentation as they do. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Electronic Keyboards and Organ Samples
On 19 Jul 2010 at 0:20, John Howell wrote: At 11:15 PM -0400 7/18/10, David W. Fenton wrote: I can't quite understand the product space here. It seems that nobody really makes anything at a professional level of quality in both keyboard and sound output. Perhaps around 10 years ago, Opera Roanoke did Monteverdi's L'Orfeo. (A very good production, in my opinion, conducted by Jan Harrington from Indiana.) On the other side of the orchestra they had an electronic organ that had what I thought were EXCELLENT samples, and a choice of at least a few historic sounding stops (and possibly even temperaments). But this is not what we need. We need something with *one* very good- sounding sample that will blend with viols. That's a pretty subtle requirement, because of the nature of the harmonic series of viols. It may have been a Roland, although I'm not at all sure, and I have no idea if it's still for sale and what the price is, but I believe it was owned by Opera Roanoke, and you might try to contact them for information. I can't remember whether that organ also had harpsichord stops. The Roland C-230 is what was first brought up, but it's vast overkill (36 stops) and pretty expensive. We also had a harpsichord on each end of the orchestra, which was nice. The one on our end was a Zuckerman, but that was OK because we had the lutes, harp and theorbo! I played bass gamba on that gig, and doubled on soprano and garklein recorders. (Those Furies were REALLY furious, but that's what the conductor wanted!) Well, if you're happy with Zuckerman kits, then, well, um, a Hammond organ doesn't seem far behind as tolerable. I guess my Oberlin education has really spoiled me, in that I can't abide the crappy instruments that are so common everywhere. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] OT: Electronic Keyboards and Organ Samples
Has anyone mucked about with using high-quality samples of pipe organs with relatively simple keyboards? My viol consort may need a rehearsal instrument while the pipe organ is being rebuilt, and I was wondering if perhaps there are proper 5- octave keyboards (i.e., F-to-F, not C-to-C) into which high-quality samples can be loaded. Since we're using it for continuo, we'd need only an 8' flute stop. Any ideas on this? -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Electronic Keyboards and Organ Samples
All right, it seems that 5-octave F-to-F keyboards don't exist (people are incredibly stupid, since that gives you a far more usable compass than 5-octave C-to-C). Does anyone know of decent 88-key keyboards with no bells and whistles, that I could load a Hauptwerk sample set into and that has a decent action? There are so many options with 88 keys in such a wide price range that I'm overwhelmed. This would be used by players with real sensitivity to touch, as the players will normally be playing non- electronic keyboards (organ and harpsichord, not piano), so the better the touch the more desirable it would be (and not necessarily a piano touch). What I'm finding is a bunch of crappy electronic organ/harpsichord devices that have the proper keyboards, but don't use single samples for every pipe/key. I can't quite understand the product space here. It seems that nobody really makes anything at a professional level of quality in both keyboard and sound output. Hence, my attempts to cobble together a keyboard/sound sample combination that is decent for use as a continuo instrument in rehearsals until our real instruments are repaired. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Electronic Keyboards and Organ Samples
David: I don't have any specific experience with what you're looking for, although I strongly suspect that it does, in fact exist, but that it when you find it, it will be an expensive piece of equipment to purchase. My best suggestions: check with the local Allen or Rogers organ dealers, and see if they might have an instrument you could rent for a period of time. Even their smallest units are apt to be bigger than what you want, but it will probably come closest to providing the sound your looking for at the best price. ns ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Electronic Keyboards and Organ Samples
At 11:15 PM -0400 7/18/10, David W. Fenton wrote: I can't quite understand the product space here. It seems that nobody really makes anything at a professional level of quality in both keyboard and sound output. Perhaps around 10 years ago, Opera Roanoke did Monteverdi's L'Orfeo. (A very good production, in my opinion, conducted by Jan Harrington from Indiana.) On the other side of the orchestra they had an electronic organ that had what I thought were EXCELLENT samples, and a choice of at least a few historic sounding stops (and possibly even temperaments). It may have been a Roland, although I'm not at all sure, and I have no idea if it's still for sale and what the price is, but I believe it was owned by Opera Roanoke, and you might try to contact them for information. I can't remember whether that organ also had harpsichord stops. We also had a harpsichord on each end of the orchestra, which was nice. The one on our end was a Zuckerman, but that was OK because we had the lutes, harp and theorbo! I played bass gamba on that gig, and doubled on soprano and garklein recorders. (Those Furies were REALLY furious, but that's what the conductor wanted!) John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
