Re: [Finale] OT: harp notation
SN jef chippewa wrote: is there a standard way of notating the string buzz caused by holding the pedal between 2 of the 3 positions? There's a Salzedo notation available for the metallic sound you want. I'll e-mail a scan of how he wanted it notated. Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: harp notation
On 2010/01/04, at 12:01, Jari Williamsson wrote: I'll e-mail a scan of how he wanted it notated. Instead of posting to your glorious site?! :-) -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Greater Boston http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=pearflamesearch_type=aq=f ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: harp notation
Yup, jef - you've got it! The ONLY thing I would add is that in my estimation, I think it would certainly be possible to notate AND produce (say) discernable quarter tones but it would be pretty damned near impossible to attempt specifically-pitched smaller microtones. Non-specific flat or sharp microtones, sure - but if you want something really specificbeyond quarter tonesI don't think so. It's the mechanics of any particular harp. I think you'd have to have a pretty damned talented pedal foot - with pretty amazing control. As for the buzz - again: specific harps and specific players - for example, when producing harmonics on a harp, you kinda have to discover the sweet spot of individual strings. And so it is with buzz and harps: easy to do on some harps (particularly those in need of regulation) and some pedal so smoothly you really have to time your pedal changes with your hands to create buzz. That said, it is easier to produce buzz if you're pedaling lightly while simultaneously sounding the string(s). So re: your question about pedal change with or without noise or buzz? Basic rule of thumb is that if the pedal is ill-coordinated with the plucking of the string, OR a 'clunky' pedal job: easy to buzz. And the exact opposite can also be produced: the whole point of the 'Harpo trill' is that the string is plucked and THEN the pedal is (usually rapidly) 'pumped' through one half-step alteration several times: if done carefully, no buzz at all. Hope that helps. My 1921 Lyon Healy is in need of regulation, but gave me NO difficulty at all in producing the effects discussed aboveand the instrument is (incidentally) the very harp upon which Harpo took hundreds of lessons with Mildred Dilling in the 1920s while he and his brothers were doing 'The Cocoanuts' and 'Animal Crackers' on Broadway - as Mildred told me. After the show, he'd run to her apartment, have a late dinner and an informal harp lesson. The stories about him being completely, totally self-taught? Only nearly correctalthough he - to the very end of his life - never did learn to read music. But whatever: he was a phenomenal harpist and created technique that became 'legit'. Les Marsden (209) 966-6988 Cell: (559) 708-6027 (Emergency only) 7145 Snyder Creek Road Mariposa, CA 95338-9641 Founding Music Director and Conductor, The Mariposa Symphony Orchestra Music and Mariposa? Ah, Paradise!!! Mariposa County Planning Commissioner, District 5 Past President, The Economic Development Corporation of Mariposa County http://arts-mariposa.org/symphony.html Marsden Marx Pages: http://tinyurl.com/ygpj7og - Original Message - From: SN jef chippewa To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 8:27 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] OT: harp notation les, thanks for the details, very much appreciated!!! i am in fact aware of the mechanical aspects of the instrument but am trying to better understand the actual results and what can actually be controlled and to what degree. Now - in practice: of course it's possible to micro-tone any pitch between a string's flat and sharp positions: done carefully (and if the harp is well-regulated) there's no buzz - but the harpist CAN deliberately create a buzz EVEN while slowly altering the pitch from (say) fully flatted to natural. Microtones, you name it: you can do it. are you saying that (assuming proper prep time) i could ask for any 1/4-tone, 1/6-tone, 1/8-tone? or are the smaller *raised* inflections easier to perform and control than tempered 1/4-tones? since the pedal is mechanical, in the case of a well-regulated harp, how could the performer intentionally create the buzz? it would seem to me that there HAS to be a point at which (for mechanical reasons) the pins come into contact with the strings as the pedal is pressed and that beyond this point (raising the pitch) the performer can no longer prevent the buzz. i.e. after a certain pitch increase, the control of the buzz is directly related to the pitch alterations to the string. this makes me think: - slight pitch inflections upwards can easily be done without noise, up to perhaps a 1/4-tone and beyond, according to the make of the instrument, regulation of the haro and control of the performer - above a certain point (varies according to same reasons in previous point) -- once the buzz starts - the pitch variation will always be accompanied by noise, and this noise can to a certain extent be controled in tendem with pitch fluctuations effected by the pedal except you say that a clean gliss is possible wth no noise! sorry to sound dense, but can you explain the separate conditions for a gliss with and without noise? Matter of fact, Harpo Marx (with whose technique I have more than a little familiarity!) ah! his rachmaninov technique? Done
Re: [Finale] OT: harp notation
At 5:59 PM -0800 1/2/10, Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote: Yup, John - I'm a harpist but in a bit of a time crunch at the moment. The described effect certainly IS possible and quite easy to accomplish; Thanks for your authoritative explanation, Les. I wasn't too far off, which is fairly amazing. So it sounds like the effect can be produced by a very skilled player--or by a rank beginner! Sort of like getting a very high squeak out of a clarinet!! Interesting how beginners' mistakes become part of an instrument's technique! John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] OT: harp notation
is there a standard way of notating the string buzz caused by holding the pedal between 2 of the 3 positions? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: harp notation
On Sat Jan 2, at SaturdayJan 2 10:15 AM, SN jef chippewa wrote: is there a standard way of notating the string buzz caused by holding the pedal between 2 of the 3 positions? I've done this before. The harpist said no, there isn't a standard way, so upon her suggestion I wrote the lower of the two pitches (which ends up being the one that actually sounds) with the other note head beside it to the right in parentheses in grace note size, like a trill to notehead, then the words 1/2 pedal grind over the passage. So it was a half note Ab, and then to the right a quarter notehead Anat (stemless) at 75% bracketted. Hope you understand it. It was for amplified harp, which makes for a larger effect than acoustic harp. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: harp notation
On Sat Jan 2, at SaturdayJan 2 10:15 AM, SN jef chippewa wrote: is there a standard way of notating the string buzz caused by holding the pedal between 2 of the 3 positions? While there is admittedly no standard, in my *Handbook of Instrumentation* (p. 324) I recommend notating the lower pitch and adding a slashed accidental beneath the note--for example, a Gb with a slashed natural beneath it. I think this would be understood w.o explanation. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: harp notation
anyone have the sequenza handy and can cross-ref? -- ok, i thought that there was a salzedo-sanctioned notaton for this. the composer has said to block the pedal at natural(^) or natural(v), but if i understood chris right, these would produce two different pitches, either b or nat but never sharp? this means that there is a breaking point in the gliss where it shifts to the upper or lower note, correct? there are two things here, for me. the playing and resulting sound. it might be justified to have a symbol (artic) to indicate that the sound buzzes, e.g. the Z on the stem sometimes used to indicate extremely fast tremolo. a friend mentioned that he thinks the Z is in fact used... i am thinking -- in fact proposing -- that using a 1/4 sharp or 1/4 flat (maybe plus the Z-buzz symbol) would make sense as the standard notation that should be used for this. it would in this particular case. with 1/4-tone notation there is at least a half truth in the notation -- it specifically represent the do, if but not the hear notation, because the actual 1/4-tone pitches do not really sound -- while a slashed accidental has no other standard notational meaning and is therefore entirely ambiguous without further explanation. While there is admittedly no standard, in my *Handbook of Instrumentation* (p. 324) I recommend notating the lower pitch and adding a slashed accidental beneath the note--for example, a Gb with a slashed natural beneath it. I think this would be understood w.o explanation. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: harp notation
At 10:30 PM +0100 1/2/10, SN jef chippewa wrote: anyone have the sequenza handy and can cross-ref? -- ok, i thought that there was a salzedo-sanctioned notaton for this. the composer has said to block the pedal at natural(^) or natural(v), but if i understood chris right, these would produce two different pitches, either b or nat but never sharp? this means that there is a breaking point in the gliss where it shifts to the upper or lower note, correct? Stop and think for a moment about how a harp operate. The pedals operate 2 sets of fretting stops (and I'm sure there's a technical term for them) that either do or do not fret the strings at the natural and sharp levels. The buzz you're after is the string vibrating against that stop when it isn't firmly in either position. Therefore I see no way that you could have all 3 string pitches at once. You could have Bb/B natural or you could have B natural/B#. But it isn't as simple as producing two different pitches, because neither pitch would be clean and obvious, since they're both produced by the same string. But yes, it would be a combined sound along with the buzz. i am thinking -- in fact proposing -- that using a 1/4 sharp or 1/4 flat (maybe plus the Z-buzz symbol) would make sense as the standard notation that should be used for this. There are no quarter-steps possible on a harp, at least without hand-fretting a single string, and I don't know whether that's even possible. The basic mechanics don't allow it. So harpists are not only not used to seeing such notation, I doubt that they'd know how to interpret it. The question seems to be which effect is more important to you: the buzz of the string against the frets, or sounding 2 pitches at once? For the latter, it would be more normal to use 2 adjacent strings. Are there no harpists on this list? There are at least 2 on the SibeliusList. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: harp notation
On Sat Jan 2, at SaturdayJan 2 4:30 PM, SN jef chippewa wrote: anyone have the sequenza handy and can cross-ref? -- ok, i thought that there was a salzedo-sanctioned notaton for this. the composer has said to block the pedal at natural(^) or natural (v), but if i understood chris right, these would produce two different pitches, either b or nat but never sharp? this means that there is a breaking point in the gliss where it shifts to the upper or lower note, correct? there are two things here, for me. the playing and resulting sound. it might be justified to have a symbol (artic) to indicate that the sound buzzes, e.g. the Z on the stem sometimes used to indicate extremely fast tremolo. a friend mentioned that he thinks the Z is in fact used... i am thinking -- in fact proposing -- that using a 1/4 sharp or 1/4 flat (maybe plus the Z-buzz symbol) would make sense as the standard notation that should be used for this. it would in this particular case. with 1/4-tone notation there is at least a half truth in the notation -- it specifically represent the do, if but not the hear notation, because the actual 1/4-tone pitches do not really sound -- while a slashed accidental has no other standard notational meaning and is therefore entirely ambiguous without further explanation. You have to look at a harp. The open string is a flat; to change it to a natural there is a disc with two little posts sticking out of it, like a two-tined fork, that twists when you put the pedal down and effectively makes the string a semitone shorter. The first half- pedal just gives you the open string with a buzz, not a quarter tone, unless the posts are out of adjustment and the back one touches before the front one, which would not really be very effective in sound anyway, and nowhere close to a 1/4 tone. The second half-pedal buzzes the natural note, by 1/2 pedalling between the natural and sharp to engage the 2nd disc with two tines. This will give you the natural pitch. If you want, say, a G# pitch to buzz, you won't get it on the G string. Write it as an Ab and 1/2 pedal it to Anat. In all cases, the pitch is not really altered, just a buzz is added. There is little, if any, actual gliss effect if you change slowly between semitones. BTW, there's a great example of this in one of the James Bond films, I think it is the first one, Goldfinger. Bond is sneaking around and there is this close-miked harp playing the characteristic theme (B, D, A, Ab, B, F, F#), very slowly in the med-low register, grinding every semitone until you think your teeth are coming loose. I was so impressed by this cue that I asked a harpist how it was done, and got the demonstration. I think they must have practically put the mic right on the harp. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: harp notation
Yup, John - I'm a harpist but in a bit of a time crunch at the moment. The described effect certainly IS possible and quite easy to accomplish; when the pedals sit in their neutral (fully up, or technically: fully flattened) position, there is no contact between the strings and the two sets of tuning discs, each of which have (in turn) TWO pins, one on either side of the string. When the pedal is depressed into the 'natural' or middle position, carefully: the first set of discs rotates, engaging the pins on either side of the string; depress the pedal again into its lowest or sharped position and the second set of discs and ITS sets of pins engage the string. Stopping once, stopping twice. So much for the mechanics; the string is - as with any chordophone: shortened and the pitch raised. Now - in practice: of course it's possible to micro-tone any pitch between a string's flat and sharp positions: done carefully (and if the harp is well-regulated) there's no buzz - but the harpist CAN deliberately create a buzz EVEN while slowly altering the pitch from (say) fully flatted to natural. Microtones, you name it: you can do it. With or without buzz; it's all in the foot. Because: there is a graduated alteration of the string's length produced by the TURNING of the discs, not an abrupt pitch change; it's how the instrument works. A good harpist slips pedals quickly so as to lessen the potential portamento - and does so (usually) while the string is NOT ringing - or the harpist will deliberately do just the opposite, so as to produce a portamento effect, if called for. Matter of fact, Harpo Marx (with whose technique I have more than a little familiarity!) actually created a pedal 'trill' effect that was unique to the instrument but has since become fairly standard. The effect was rendered simply by rapid half-step pedal alteration; it's kinda funny, too because it's a hands-free effectyou're looking at the harpist, the string is sounded, and then the foot takes over and the trill is committed without fingers on strings. Done slowly, ya hear the interceding tones; done quickly and the persistence of hearing (my term) makes you think you're hearing a clean 1/2-step trill. Done badly: buzz buzz buz. Les Marsden (209) 966-6988 Cell: (559) 708-6027 (Emergency only) 7145 Snyder Creek Road Mariposa, CA 95338-9641 Founding Music Director and Conductor, The Mariposa Symphony Orchestra Music and Mariposa? Ah, Paradise!!! Mariposa County Planning Commissioner, District 5 Past President, The Economic Development Corporation of Mariposa County http://arts-mariposa.org/symphony.html Marsden Marx Pages: http://tinyurl.com/ygpj7og - Original Message - From: John Howell To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 3:35 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] OT: harp notation At 10:30 PM +0100 1/2/10, SN jef chippewa wrote: anyone have the sequenza handy and can cross-ref? -- ok, i thought that there was a salzedo-sanctioned notaton for this. the composer has said to block the pedal at natural(^) or natural(v), but if i understood chris right, these would produce two different pitches, either b or nat but never sharp? this means that there is a breaking point in the gliss where it shifts to the upper or lower note, correct? Stop and think for a moment about how a harp operate. The pedals operate 2 sets of fretting stops (and I'm sure there's a technical term for them) that either do or do not fret the strings at the natural and sharp levels. The buzz you're after is the string vibrating against that stop when it isn't firmly in either position. Therefore I see no way that you could have all 3 string pitches at once. You could have Bb/B natural or you could have B natural/B#. But it isn't as simple as producing two different pitches, because neither pitch would be clean and obvious, since they're both produced by the same string. But yes, it would be a combined sound along with the buzz. i am thinking -- in fact proposing -- that using a 1/4 sharp or 1/4 flat (maybe plus the Z-buzz symbol) would make sense as the standard notation that should be used for this. There are no quarter-steps possible on a harp, at least without hand-fretting a single string, and I don't know whether that's even possible. The basic mechanics don't allow it. So harpists are not only not used to seeing such notation, I doubt that they'd know how to interpret it. The question seems to be which effect is more important to you: the buzz of the string against the frets, or sounding 2 pitches at once? For the latter, it would be more normal to use 2 adjacent strings. Are there no harpists on this list? There are at least 2 on the SibeliusList. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal
Re: [Finale] OT: harp notation
Therefore I see no way that you could have all 3 string pitches at once. whoa there cowboy, that was never the intention! You could have Bb/B natural or you could have B natural/B#. But it isn't as simple as producing two different pitches, because neither pitch would be clean and obvious, since they're both produced by the same string. But yes, it would be a combined sound along with the buzz. this is not eggzackly what i was getting on about, i was talking about one pitch with buzz; the question had to do with how much control was possible on that one pitch. i am thinking -- in fact proposing -- that using a 1/4 sharp or 1/4 flat (maybe plus the Z-buzz symbol) would make sense as the standard notation that should be used for this. There are no quarter-steps possible on a harp, at least without hand-fretting a single string, and I don't know whether that's even possible. my point was that 1/4 tone accis could possibly be understood as a half position between the standard half tone positions. 1/4 tones can in fact be played on the harp by stopping any string with the tuning key (plus timbral alteration), but we're talking pedals here... The basic mechanics don't allow it. not as a sounding pitch (as i stated), but perhaps as the actual mechanical gesture needed to produce the effect. and les seems to have suggested it is in fact possible. So harpists are not only not used to seeing such notation, I doubt that they'd know how to interpret it. this is not an issue for me if no standard notation exists anyways; harpist/composers/copyists will simply need to agree to and get used to a standardized notation for the effect (as i said, if one does not already exist). but before we conclude that discussion we'll speak to some harpists! The question seems to be which effect is more important to you: the buzz of the string against the frets, or sounding 2 pitches at once? For the latter, it would be more normal to use 2 adjacent strings. what is important may vary according to composer but it would seem to me that the buzz would be the important thing, as the actual pitch between the tempered stops cannot be controlled as well on this instrument as on others (?). ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: harp notation
les, thanks for the details, very much appreciated!!! i am in fact aware of the mechanical aspects of the instrument but am trying to better understand the actual results and what can actually be controlled and to what degree. Now - in practice: of course it's possible to micro-tone any pitch between a string's flat and sharp positions: done carefully (and if the harp is well-regulated) there's no buzz - but the harpist CAN deliberately create a buzz EVEN while slowly altering the pitch from (say) fully flatted to natural. Microtones, you name it: you can do it. are you saying that (assuming proper prep time) i could ask for any 1/4-tone, 1/6-tone, 1/8-tone? or are the smaller *raised* inflections easier to perform and control than tempered 1/4-tones? since the pedal is mechanical, in the case of a well-regulated harp, how could the performer intentionally create the buzz? it would seem to me that there HAS to be a point at which (for mechanical reasons) the pins come into contact with the strings as the pedal is pressed and that beyond this point (raising the pitch) the performer can no longer prevent the buzz. i.e. after a certain pitch increase, the control of the buzz is directly related to the pitch alterations to the string. this makes me think: - slight pitch inflections upwards can easily be done without noise, up to perhaps a 1/4-tone and beyond, according to the make of the instrument, regulation of the haro and control of the performer - above a certain point (varies according to same reasons in previous point) -- once the buzz starts - the pitch variation will always be accompanied by noise, and this noise can to a certain extent be controled in tendem with pitch fluctuations effected by the pedal except you say that a clean gliss is possible wth no noise! sorry to sound dense, but can you explain the separate conditions for a gliss with and without noise? Matter of fact, Harpo Marx (with whose technique I have more than a little familiarity!) ah! his rachmaninov technique? Done slowly, ya hear the interceding tones; done quickly and the persistence of hearing (my term) makes you think you're hearing a clean 1/2-step trill. can you give us a tempo for this? Done badly: buzz buzz buz. and this? thanks, this is very helpful! ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
