Re: [Finale] Sibelius Core Team Now at Steinberg, Building New Notation Tool
Jari Williamsson wrote: But why would Igor decide the rules, why couldn't the user define the rules? This goes to my deepest frustration with notation programs. Almost every time I have turned to developers at one or another of the software firms with a request for help to do something somewhat unconventional, the inevitable first response is either Why would you ever want to do that? or The correct way to notate that is (fill in whatever the program does by default)? There is an assumption that I neither understand the convention nor know best what I want to do, rather than a straightforward attempt to provide what I need. I recognize that many users of these programs — perhaps the vast majority — have less experience than I have and have less demanding requirements, and they honestly appreciate a program that assists at each step with achieving a conventional score and parts, be it making sure all the note values in a measure add up or that instrumental ranges don't exceed someone's definition of what's doable or not. But I do have the experience to recognize the elements of my notation which are conventional and those which are not; having to prove my chops each time I ask for something out of the ordinary — and I'm not a notational extremist at that — is frustrating. Particularly frustrating is when a feature request does not require significant re-engineering, but is rejected because of over-commitment to the conventions. For example, take non--powers-of-two denominators in time signatures. (Please do not begin a discussion here about what these are or whether one needs them, just believe me that there is a critical mass of composers who find them useful, if not necessary for their work, and a critical mass of players who have no great objection to playing them.) By going through a few loops — usually involving some combination of hidden real and visible graphic-only tuplets, or, alternatively, hidden tempo changes are graphic-only tuplets — it is possible both to notate these and get reasonably accurate playback, fitting them into a measure which is as close to the desired measure in length as the minimum Finale midi note value allows. In Finale, it is already possible to have a display-only time signature, with any number from 1-99 in the numerator (or some additive combination), but only powers-of-two are allowed in the denominator. I can understand having this limitation as a default for most users, and there are kludges of hiding time signatures are inserting a graphic signature but it really ought to be possible to stick any number in the bottom of the signature as an option. Developers I've spoken to have indicated that the code change is as minimal as I imagine it to be, so it's low-hanging fruit, but, as one developer put it to me: the risk that an amateur user would accidentally enter 4/3 or 7/10 measures is greater to us than the benefit it would bring to the three users who want such weirdness. Oh well. One program with notational capacity, Harmony Assistant, has a nice feature of user-defined rules that would, in principle, go some distance to solving such problems, but is unfortunately underdeveloped in some notational aspects and cumbersome in input, but it does show that, in principle, such a path is possible. djw -- Dr. Daniel James Wolf composer djw...@snafu.de home.snafu.de/djwolf renewablemusic.blogspot.com MaterialPress.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Sibelius Core Team Now at Steinberg, Building New Notation Tool
Obviously, the notation product is a very long way off and there are no examples to show yet, but here's the first blog post by Daniel Spreadbury announcing the project: http://blog.steinberg.net/2013/02/welcome/ If Daniel is associated with the project, then I am optimistic (Now, if he could only get me off the Igor Noteheads mailing list, then he would be a true hero!) Richard Yates ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Sibelius Core Team Now at Steinberg, Building New Notation Tool
(Now, if he could only get me off the Igor Noteheads mailing list, then he would be a true hero!) Me too! Four years into daily Finale use I still hit things that were far quicker in Igor. Basic thinks like slur entry, dynamic entry, hairpin entry, proper linked parts, ability to grab anything and move it. The biggest miss is still that Igor was modeless and that nothing gets done in Finale without selecting the right tool. It is to be hoped that Steinberg take a look at Igor. Steve P. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Sibelius Core Team Now at Steinberg, Building New Notation Tool
On 2013-02-21 14:02, Steve Parker wrote: It is to be hoped that Steinberg take a look at Igor. ...or they could try to be really innovative for a change? Although Igor went much further than anything else in terms of innovative thinking, Igor was still just a variation on the same theme. IMO, music notation software development has a long tradition of being extremely non-creative. Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Sibelius Core Team Now at Steinberg, Building New Notation Tool
When Igor came out it was entirely different. New features in fairly recent versions of Finale and Sibelius were present at the start of Igor more than a decade ahead of its time. Can you explain more the direction you're thinking? Modeless operation; ability to easily enter dynamics, slurs, markings, hairpins during note entry; ability to grab anything and move it, linked parts where it was stupidly simple to unlink (or relink) any element - these put Igor way ahead of even the current curve. I know Finale and Sibelius pretty well and beta-tested Notion. Igor was an entirely different beast for pro copying than any of them. So.. what are you thinking? (Asked with great interest because your plugs go a long way in turning Finale into something!) Steve P. On 21 Feb 2013, at 13:57, Jari Williamsson jari.williams...@mailbox.swipnet.se wrote: On 2013-02-21 14:02, Steve Parker wrote: It is to be hoped that Steinberg take a look at Igor. ...or they could try to be really innovative for a change? Although Igor went much further than anything else in terms of innovative thinking, Igor was still just a variation on the same theme. IMO, music notation software development has a long tradition of being extremely non-creative. Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Sibelius Core Team Now at Steinberg, Building New Notation Tool
On 2013-02-21 15:33, Steve Parker wrote: Can you explain more the direction you're thinking? Just some examples: * Some Finale users thought Sibelius 7 was a good choice just because it now had an input mode where the duration/pitch entry sequence was reversed. Why should such things even be a matter at all for mature products that have been on the market for a while? Almost every user judgement about ANY music notation product is based on the entry method. IMO, this shows that music notation programs have not yet matured beyond the first generation. * Finale/Sib/Igor/etc/etc defines music notation as staves and series of measures going from left to the right in a certain fixed pattern. That is NOT what music notation is. What we now are experiencing is that computer programs define what music notation is to the human, instead of the other way around. * Igor had a nice option of selecting accidental style between Viennese school and old style method. But why would Igor decide the rules, why couldn't the user define the rules? Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Sibelius Core Team Now at Steinberg, Building New Notation Tool
This is certainly interesting (and well-played by Steinberg): http://createdigitalmusic.com/2013/02/sibelius-core-team-now-at-steinberg-building-new-notation-tool/ Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Sibelius Core Team Now at Steinberg, Building New Notation Tool
The yet-to-be-named notation product already has a blog, written by Daniel Spreadbury, who is part of the development team: http://blog.steinberg.net Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On Feb 20, 2013, at 4:05 PM, Darcy James Argue djar...@earthlink.net wrote: This is certainly interesting (and well-played by Steinberg): http://createdigitalmusic.com/2013/02/sibelius-core-team-now-at-steinberg-building-new-notation-tool/ Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Sibelius Core Team Now at Steinberg, Building New Notation Tool
More power to them - it can only help the industry. Not much showing on the page right now - that Dvorak example is pretty lame. But it is early. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 11:55 PM, Mariposa Symphony Orchestra m...@sti.netwrote: Thanks for that reveal, Darcy – fascinating to see where this new product’s evolutionary journey might take it, and more important: whether the lofty intentions set forward by Dan Spreadbury can actual be practicably implemented. Best, Les Marsden (209) 966-6988 (H) (559) 708-6027 (Limited-reception cell) 7145 Snyder Creek Road Mariposa, CA 95338-9641 Chairman, Mariposa County Planning Commission President, Mariposa County Arts Council, Incorporated Board Director, Economic Development Corporation of Mariposa County Founding Music Director and Conductor, The Mariposa Symphony Orchestra ♫ ♪ ♫ Marsden Marx Pages (former career ended by disability): http://tinyurl.com/ygpj7og Mariposa Symphony Orchestra: http://arts-mariposa.org/symphony.html From: Darcy James Argue Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 1:05 PM To: mailto:finale@shsu.edu Subject: [Finale] Sibelius Core Team Now at Steinberg,Building New Notation Tool This is certainly interesting (and well-played by Steinberg): http://createdigitalmusic.com/2013/02/sibelius-core-team-now-at-steinberg-building-new-notation-tool/ Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Sibelius Core Team Now at Steinberg, Building New Notation Tool
Actually, that Dvořák example is in Sibelius. — Andrew On 21 February 2013 15:42, Raymond Horton horton.raym...@gmail.com wrote: More power to them - it can only help the industry. Not much showing on the page right now - that Dvorak example is pretty lame. But it is early. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 11:55 PM, Mariposa Symphony Orchestra m...@sti.netwrote: Thanks for that reveal, Darcy – fascinating to see where this new product’s evolutionary journey might take it, and more important: whether the lofty intentions set forward by Dan Spreadbury can actual be practicably implemented. Best, Les Marsden (209) 966-6988 (H) (559) 708-6027 (Limited-reception cell) 7145 Snyder Creek Road Mariposa, CA 95338-9641 Chairman, Mariposa County Planning Commission President, Mariposa County Arts Council, Incorporated Board Director, Economic Development Corporation of Mariposa County Founding Music Director and Conductor, The Mariposa Symphony Orchestra ♫ ♪ ♫ Marsden Marx Pages (former career ended by disability): http://tinyurl.com/ygpj7og Mariposa Symphony Orchestra: http://arts-mariposa.org/symphony.html From: Darcy James Argue Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 1:05 PM To: mailto:finale@shsu.edu Subject: [Finale] Sibelius Core Team Now at Steinberg,Building New Notation Tool This is certainly interesting (and well-played by Steinberg): http://createdigitalmusic.com/2013/02/sibelius-core-team-now-at-steinberg-building-new-notation-tool/ Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Sibelius Core Team Now at Steinberg, Building New Notation Tool
That is funny! RBH On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 12:35 AM, Andrew Moschou and...@gmail.com wrote: Actually, that Dvořák example is in Sibelius. — Andrew On 21 February 2013 15:42, Raymond Horton horton.raym...@gmail.com wrote: More power to them - it can only help the industry. Not much showing on the page right now - that Dvorak example is pretty lame. But it is early. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 11:55 PM, Mariposa Symphony Orchestra m...@sti.netwrote: Thanks for that reveal, Darcy – fascinating to see where this new product’s evolutionary journey might take it, and more important: whether the lofty intentions set forward by Dan Spreadbury can actual be practicably implemented. Best, Les Marsden (209) 966-6988 (H) (559) 708-6027 (Limited-reception cell) 7145 Snyder Creek Road Mariposa, CA 95338-9641 Chairman, Mariposa County Planning Commission President, Mariposa County Arts Council, Incorporated Board Director, Economic Development Corporation of Mariposa County Founding Music Director and Conductor, The Mariposa Symphony Orchestra ♫ ♪ ♫ Marsden Marx Pages (former career ended by disability): http://tinyurl.com/ygpj7og Mariposa Symphony Orchestra: http://arts-mariposa.org/symphony.html From: Darcy James Argue Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 1:05 PM To: mailto:finale@shsu.edu Subject: [Finale] Sibelius Core Team Now at Steinberg,Building New Notation Tool This is certainly interesting (and well-played by Steinberg): http://createdigitalmusic.com/2013/02/sibelius-core-team-now-at-steinberg-building-new-notation-tool/ Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Sibelius Core Team Now at Steinberg, Building New Notation Tool
That Sibelius image was selected by the website reporting on the story, http://createdigitalmusic.com. Obviously, the notation product is a very long way off and there are no examples to show yet, but here's the first blog post by Daniel Spreadbury announcing the project: http://blog.steinberg.net/2013/02/welcome/ Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On Feb 21, 2013, at 12:35 AM, Andrew Moschou and...@gmail.com wrote: Actually, that Dvořák example is in Sibelius. — Andrew On 21 February 2013 15:42, Raymond Horton horton.raym...@gmail.com wrote: More power to them - it can only help the industry. Not much showing on the page right now - that Dvorak example is pretty lame. But it is early. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 11:55 PM, Mariposa Symphony Orchestra m...@sti.netwrote: Thanks for that reveal, Darcy – fascinating to see where this new product’s evolutionary journey might take it, and more important: whether the lofty intentions set forward by Dan Spreadbury can actual be practicably implemented. Best, Les Marsden (209) 966-6988 (H) (559) 708-6027 (Limited-reception cell) 7145 Snyder Creek Road Mariposa, CA 95338-9641 Chairman, Mariposa County Planning Commission President, Mariposa County Arts Council, Incorporated Board Director, Economic Development Corporation of Mariposa County Founding Music Director and Conductor, The Mariposa Symphony Orchestra ♫ ♪ ♫ Marsden Marx Pages (former career ended by disability): http://tinyurl.com/ygpj7og Mariposa Symphony Orchestra: http://arts-mariposa.org/symphony.html From: Darcy James Argue Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 1:05 PM To: mailto:finale@shsu.edu Subject: [Finale] Sibelius Core Team Now at Steinberg,Building New Notation Tool This is certainly interesting (and well-played by Steinberg): http://createdigitalmusic.com/2013/02/sibelius-core-team-now-at-steinberg-building-new-notation-tool/ Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
