Re: [Finale] 2009 User Manual Default Browser
Daniel Wolf wrote: I use a Windows machine for Finale, but avoid using the Internet Explorer browser, in preference to Opera and, sometimes, Firefox. Opera is my default browser for HTML files, and it displays the Finale User Manual fast and well. But when the User Manual is opened either from the start menu or within Finale via Help it seems to insist on opening Internet Explorer and I can't figure out how to change this. Any ideas? Daniel Wolf ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale You mean they didn't change that either? That's the crap they forced on us with 2008, when they changed from PDF help files to the new improved help files, which aren't really any better, in my opinion. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2009 User Manual Default Browser
Aaron Sherber wrote: [snip] Finale will still insist on using IE when you press F1, as you noted, but this may make it easier for you to get to the manual in your browser of choice. Don't forget to complain to customer support about this. As if that helped when we all complained about it with Fin2008. :-) -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2009 User Manual Default Browser
David W. Fenton wrote: [snip] It is ridiculous that they haven't fixed this yet. They haven't admitted it's a problem, so they don't view it as needing a fix. I complained about it (as did many others) when Fin2008 came out and as we can all see, they haven't bothered to care what we think. I'm not a programmer, but it seems quite an easy thing to do to let the OS use whatever browser is setup as the default in the OS be used for any call to open HTML files. But that would demand that the help-file staff actually check out the help files in all the most common browser (anybody who's done any reading on web-site design knows that's a must!) to make sure they display adequately in all of them. That would entail absolutely perfect html code since different browsers are forgiving in different ways of coding errors, and is just much harder than what MM has chosen to do: force it to open in IE, make sure it displays properly in IE and then tell people who complain when it doesn't quite work right in Opera or FireFox or whatever that it's not their problem. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2009 User Manual Default Browser
James Gilbert wrote: I haven't had time to give 2009 a really good going over, but so far, I'm trying to remember why I upgraded. :) Because MM placed a speaker under your pillow playing the following mantra over and over in your sleep so you could learn it subliminally: MakeMusic needs more money -- buy Finale2009 upgrade. :-) Actually, it does sound as if there may be some under-the-hood workings which have improved. The big question remains whether there are enough of them to warrant the expense. The major change, the ability to use *any* VST plugins for playback, is only of limited or nonexistent use to many of us. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2009 User Manual Default Browser
At 07:19 AM 7/28/2008, dhbailey wrote: But that would demand that the help-file staff actually check out the help files in all the most common browser (anybody who's done any reading on web-site design knows that's a must!) to make sure they display adequately in all of them. That would entail absolutely perfect html code since different browsers are forgiving in different ways of coding errors, and is just much harder than what MM has chosen to do: force it to open in IE, make sure it displays properly in IE and then tell people who complain when it doesn't quite work right in Opera or FireFox or whatever that it's not their problem. This isn't quite accurate. First of all, writing absolutely perfect, standards compliant HTML is a guaranteed way to have your pages display differently in different browsers, because browsers disagree on how to render such HTML. Second, Makemusic isn't writing all this HTML themselves. They're using a professional package that creates the HTML files out of some other kind of input. So they're not directly responsible for making sure that the HTML renders the same across different browsers. Third, I think the issue of not opening by default in your default browser is fixed in 2009 for Mac, meaning it's now Windows only. This means that (a) MM does intend to fix this behavior, and (b) it's got something to do with the way Finale calls the help file, rather than anything in the HTML itself. I still don't understand why this issue has proven to be so intractable for them, or why they were able to fix it on Mac but not Windows. And I agree that they should try to get it right on Windows as well. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2009 User Manual Default Browser
Aaron Sherber wrote: [snip] This isn't quite accurate. First of all, writing absolutely perfect, standards compliant HTML is a guaranteed way to have your pages display differently in different browsers, because browsers disagree on how to render such HTML. Display differently, yes -- but the pages would all work in all the browsers, there wouldn't be any situations where paragraphs run into each other as one long run-on paragraph because of missing end-codes, which might display as perfect paragraphs in IE. Links would all work, etc. Second, Makemusic isn't writing all this HTML themselves. They're using a professional package that creates the HTML files out of some other kind of input. So they're not directly responsible for making sure that the HTML renders the same across different browsers. That's like saying to an engraving client You can't have the music appear the way you want because I'm using Finale and it won't allow that. It's the responsibility of the person collecting the money to provide what the client wants. Defending MakeMusic's dysfunctional help files because of the tool they use seems silly to me. If the tool they're using won't do what should be done, they need to find another tool, just as we need to find another tool if Finale won't do what an engraving client is paying us to do. And we should be smart enough to know whether our tools will allow the engraving output desired BEFORE we accept the client's money, just as MM should have known whether or not the help files would only work completely properly when using IE before paying however much money they spent to buy that help-file-creation tool. Third, I think the issue of not opening by default in your default browser is fixed in 2009 for Mac, meaning it's now Windows only. This means that (a) MM does intend to fix this behavior, and (b) it's got something to do with the way Finale calls the help file, rather than anything in the HTML itself. I agree -- it appears as if Finale is using some hard-coded call to bring up IE specifically, rather than simply sending a call to the OS to open the default browser. But I wonder if that hard-coded call is due to the desire to support the help files in only a single browser instead of getting people begging for solutions to problems getting the help files to work properly in some obscure browser they put together themselves. I still don't understand why this issue has proven to be so intractable for them, or why they were able to fix it on Mac but not Windows. And I agree that they should try to get it right on Windows as well. I'm happy it was fixed on the Mac side of things -- perhaps they used a different tool to generate those help files? I wonder -- it would be interesting for someone to compare the Mac help files with the Windows help files and see if they're the same help files or to see just how different they are (and if possible what tool was used to generate them.) -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2009 User Manual Default Browser
Aaron Sherber wrote: At 07:25 AM 7/28/2008, dhbailey wrote: the expense. The major change, the ability to use *any* VST plugins for playback, is only of limited or nonexistent use to many of us. Depends who you mean by us. If you mean the current and potential base of Finale users, then I think you're wrong, and I don't think MM would have spent so much time and energy working on playback features over the past few versions if they didn't have a good sense that there was demand for this. If you mean people who use Finale primarily for notation, then you're right, by definition. If you mean, those of us on this list, then I'm not sure. (Personally, I installed the Garritan sounds with the first Finale release they came with (2007?), but after playing with them for a bit to see what they were all about, I never used them. I didn't even install them with 2008, and I don't plan to for 2009. It's just not part of what I use Finale for.) By us I really did mean the current and future Finale user base -- I do realize that the use of the word many may have been misguided. But it may not have been -- for many of us, we'll never go beyond the playback samples which Finale provides. For many others of us, who want to use expensive-sample-set-A for strings, and expensive-sample-set-B for brass, and expensive-sample-set-C for woodwinds, etc., its a terrific step forward and for them, it's worth the price of the upgrade, even if the engraver slurs problem or the lyrics smart-extensions or smart-hyphens never gets fixed. For people paid to produce only audio output but who work best with notation rather than sequencers, its an excellent upgrade. I'm sure there are some heavy-hitter users (either whole production houses or publishers [Hal Leonard may use Finale to produce their play-along CDs, who knows] or big-name movie/tv composers) who demanded that addition. I'm not trying to say it should not have been included -- I think it's a terrific addition. But other than this new VST capability, and hidden under-the-hood improvements which nobody has been oohing and aahing over very much in this group, there isn't a lot in this upgrade other than the new FinaleScript2 to catch anybody's attention. FinaleScript2 seems like it has potential, but I wonder how much of a learning curve it will have for the part-time or casual Finale user, and whether it will ultimately prove the god-send it seems like it has the potential to be. Plug-ins began with that potential also, but it quickly became clear that only people who had programming chops (or were willing to spend time developing them) and who had perseverance ever were able to do anything with Plug-ins other than simply use the plug-ins others developed. I'm looking forward to having people share their FinaleScript2 scripts on this list, along with explanations of what the various commands do, so that others can learn and feel comfortable experimenting, as happened when StaffStyles were added. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2009 User Manual Default Browser
At 08:12 AM 7/28/2008, dhbailey wrote: Display differently, yes -- but the pages would all work in all the browsers, there wouldn't be any situations where paragraphs run into each other as one long run-on paragraph because of missing end-codes, which might display as perfect paragraphs in IE. Links would all work, etc. Well, yes, but this is a very low threshhold to meet. It's not what I would call absolutely perfect HTML. It's what I would call basically competent HTML. Second, Makemusic isn't writing all this HTML themselves. They're using a professional package that creates the HTML files out of some other kind of input. So they're not directly responsible for making sure that the HTML renders the same across different browsers. That's like saying to an engraving client You can't have the music appear the way you want because I'm using Finale and it won't allow that. It's the responsibility of the person collecting the money to provide what the client wants. Defending MakeMusic's dysfunctional help files because of the tool they use seems silly to me. You were faulting MM for not taking the time to write perfect HTML. I was just pointing out that they're not actually writing *any* HTML. (Also, there's not really anything wrong with the HTML.) client's money, just as MM should have known whether or not the help files would only work completely properly when using IE before paying however much money they spent to buy that help-file-creation tool. Again, as far as I know, the help files *do* work completely properly in all major browsers. So your point here is moot. a call to the OS to open the default browser. But I wonder if that hard-coded call is due to the desire to support the help files in only a single browser instead of getting people begging for solutions to problems getting the help files to work properly in some obscure browser they put together themselves. You keep coming back to this, but I really don't think it's true. MM has said that they intend to fix the IE-only call, and in fact I think they *have* fixed it for Mac. (And really, who puts together a browser themselves? If you look at web site stats, I think you'll find that over 95% of users are using one of the majors.) I'm happy it was fixed on the Mac side of things -- perhaps they used a different tool to generate those help files? I wonder -- it would be interesting for someone to compare the Mac help files with the Windows help files and see if they're the same help files or to see just how different they are (and if possible what tool was used to generate them.) The help files were produced with the same tool, and I think that aside from linking in different images, and occasional changed text to reflect an appropriate modifer key (Alt, Ctrl, Opt, etc.), the files are identical. I don't want to get into a fight, and I'm certainly not averse to criticizing MM when appropriate. I agree the IE-only on Win is frustrating, and I'm not aware of a good reason why it should be that way. But it's got nothing to do with the HTML emitted by their help tool, and it's got nothing to do with a nefarious desire to bind us to IE. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2009 User Manual Default Browser
On Mon, July 28, 2008 7:50 am, Aaron Sherber wrote: At 07:25 AM 7/28/2008, dhbailey wrote: the expense. The major change, the ability to use *any* VST plugins for playback, is only of limited or nonexistent use to many of us. If you mean people who use Finale primarily for notation, then you're right, by definition. If you mean, those of us on this list, then I'm not sure. Yes. I use Finale for both -- sometimes mainly one or the other, sometimes both. And I've been hoping for more generalized studio features, including VST, since before Finale made its first soundfont pack available. I'm happy for it -- though I'll stay on 2007 at least until the first 2009 updater and further reports on its behavior. One fear I have is losing Speedy, but the biggest fear is MM stripping the graphical approach or damaging the placement features that make new notation possible and, after a while, even straightforward. ( My modest samples page is finally up: http://maltedmedia.com/people/bathory/engraving.html ) So far (through 2007) none of the Finale changes have damaged these features, though only a few have actually improved them. Many areas of notational improvement have indeed been ignored for *years* -- such as, when the shape designer will be upgraded? I still want to stretch font characters and have them follow curves, which $50 graphics software does. Still, the production of good audio output is very important to me. Some of my music goes directly to video and others to performers or directors who prefer an audio tour, so to speak, and the combination of human playback and some of the provided sounds have made it more convincing -- after wash, rise and dry through Adobe Audition. :) Now that the audio aspects have matured, I think it's time to get back to improving the notational features. I'm still waiting for the development of on-page graphics, master pages, staggered barlines, and a UI with an informative interactive toolbar instead of dialog boxes. (But then, I'm still one who has never used linked parts.) Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2009 User Manual Default Browser
On 28 Jul 2008 at 7:19, dhbailey wrote: I'm not a programmer, but it seems quite an easy thing to do to let the OS use whatever browser is setup as the default in the OS be used for any call to open HTML files. It's actually *harder* to restrict it to IE, because you have to use an IE-specific call instead of a generic call to a Windows API (ShellExecute). But that would demand that the help-file staff actually check out the help files in all the most common browser (anybody who's done any reading on web-site design knows that's a must!) to make sure they display adequately in all of them. That would entail absolutely perfect html code Not really. It's easier to write HTML that renders well in all versions of FireFox, for instance, than it is to write HTML that renders well in all versions of IE. IE is the least standards- compliant browser currently in use, and has the most variations in its rendering engines. Even then, it's still pretty easy to create HTML that renders just fine in all the browsers -- you just have to avoid certain CSS elements that IE renders wrong. since different browsers are forgiving in different ways of coding errors, and is just much harder than what MM has chosen to do: force it to open in IE, make sure it displays properly in IE and then tell people who complain when it doesn't quite work right in Opera or FireFox or whatever that it's not their problem. If that's their reasoning, then they are completely out of touch with reality. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2009 User Manual Default Browser
On 28 Jul 2008 at 8:12, dhbailey wrote: Aaron Sherber wrote: [snip] This isn't quite accurate. First of all, writing absolutely perfect, standards compliant HTML is a guaranteed way to have your pages display differently in different browsers, because browsers disagree on how to render such HTML. Display differently, yes -- but the pages would all work in all the browsers, there wouldn't be any situations where paragraphs run into each other as one long run-on paragraph because of missing end-codes, which might display as perfect paragraphs in IE. Links would all work, etc. One common problem with IE's wrong rendering of CSS is that page widths are wider than in standards-compliant browsers (the box model problem). This results in horizontal scrollbars, or (if done in a particularly wrong fashion) content that runs off the browser window and can't be read at all (either to the right or down below). The fix is actually pretty simple, though it means that the content won't be the same in all browsers -- you simply make all your content areas 90% of the desired width. This means that IE will come out approximately 100% and all other browsers somewhat narrower. In other words, it's pretty easy to fix, just like most of the problems with rendering in IE (versus the standards-compliant browsers, i.e., all the rest of them), as long as you can tolerate minor rendering differences and don't try to use the most advanced bells and whistles. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2009 User Manual Default Browser
At 03:24 PM 7/27/2008, Daniel Wolf wrote: I use a Windows machine for Finale, but avoid using the Internet Explorer browser, in preference to Opera and, sometimes, Firefox. Opera is my default browser for HTML files, and it displays the Finale User Manual fast and well. But when the User Manual is opened either from the start menu or within Finale via Help it seems to insist on opening Internet Explorer and I can't figure out how to change this. Any ideas? This cannot be changed on Windows, and has worked this way since Fin2008. But you can yourself create a shortcut that opens the help file in Opera or Firefox, and you can create bookmarks in Opera and Firefox pointing to the help manual. Finale will still insist on using IE when you press F1, as you noted, but this may make it easier for you to get to the manual in your browser of choice. Don't forget to complain to customer support about this. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2009 User Manual Default Browser
Set the default for .chm files to Opera Daniel Wolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I use a Windows machine for Finale, but avoid using the Internet Explorer browser, in preference to Opera and, sometimes, Firefox. Opera is my default browser for HTML files, and it displays the Finale User Manual fast and well. But when the User Manual is opened either from the start menu or within Finale via Help it seems to insist on opening Internet Explorer and I can't figure out how to change this. Any ideas? Daniel Wolf ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2009 User Manual Default Browser
At 04:36 PM 7/27/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Set the default for .chm files to Opera Phil, as I recall, you're still on Finale 2.x or 3.x and therefore don't know how the help files in 2008 and 2009 are delivered. They are, in fact, a series of HTML files, no CHM at all. These HTML files do display fine in your browser of choice, as the original poster noted, but the F1 key in Finale is hardcoded to open the files in IE, and there is no way around this at the present time. The best those of us who don't use IE can do is to set up alternate ways of accessing the help files in our favorite browsers. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2009 User Manual Default Browser
On 27 Jul 2008 at 17:21, Aaron Sherber wrote: At 04:36 PM 7/27/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Set the default for .chm files to Opera Phil, as I recall, you're still on Finale 2.x or 3.x and therefore don't know how the help files in 2008 and 2009 are delivered. They are, in fact, a series of HTML files, no CHM at all. Not only that, a real CHM file (which is a Microsoft format, a compiled format for their HTML Help format) would *not* display properly if opened in a web browser. These HTML files do display fine in your browser of choice, as the original poster noted, but the F1 key in Finale is hardcoded to open the files in IE, and there is no way around this at the present time. The best those of us who don't use IE can do is to set up alternate ways of accessing the help files in our favorite browsers. It is ridiculous that they haven't fixed this yet. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] 2009 User Manual Default Browser
I don't know what I've done to my system (Vista FireFox 2) but with both FinWin2008 2009, when I press the F1 key Internet Explorer starts to load, then closes without displaying anything and the folder containing the help files shows up. I then click on the finale.htm file and it opens in FireFox and all seems to work, except that I have to search for whatever it was I was looking for -- no instant load of the help I need. The odd thing is that when I first got Finale 2008, IE did open up the help files, and once I changed the security settings, worked like it was suppose to. If I can figure out what I did to get the current behavior to happen, I'll post it. I haven't had time to give 2009 a really good going over, but so far, I'm trying to remember why I upgraded. :) James Gilbert www.jamesgilbertmusic.com Aaron Sherber wrote: Finale will still insist on using IE when you press F1, as you noted, but this may make it easier for you to get to the manual in your browser of choice. Don't forget to complain to customer support about this. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
