Re: [Finale] Re: 2/10 time signature
shirling neueweise wrote: owain, it is indeed possible, you just have to tweak. i have this expression already made up, let me know what your time sig font and staff line thicknesses are, i'll send you a library (F2003 okay?) with expressions adjusted for your needs. That'd be wonderful! I'm just using the default settings (Maestro 24, 0.01215 line thickness)...thanks in advance. From: dhbailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] figure out a time signature that will give you the correct number of notes, and then hide that in your music actually it is better to have a white-filled box under the /5 time sig, you can then maintain the spacing finale allows for the time signature (some adjustments sometimes necessary when using /24, since it is wider than the /16 it replaces) Assign this expression to the first note in the measure... measure-attached will allow for better control, especially in multi-staved scores. jef ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: 2/10 time signature
Given all this argument back and forth about 2/10 time sigs etc, it would seem an argument against using it. I like the new E = old that was previously mentioned: obvious, concise, and the musicians will not spend hours arguing about it during rehearsal. Whatever. Can't stop progress, I suppose. By the way, I also think that the ability to make the time sig be any character string in any font is a good idea too. - Bruce K. H. Kau[EMAIL PROTECTED] Kane'ohe, Hawai'i, USA Second star to the right, and straight on 'til morning ... ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: 2/10 time signature
shirling neueweise wrote: [snip] (*) indian musicians would never complain about having to perform such irrational values, would not even consider them irrational, having been trained in a variety of rhythmic contexts right from their earliest lessons and musical experiences, while the western-trained musician is taught only binary values or possibilities in virtually all musical realms. up until the early 1950's, the western european music tradition (of which the north american is descendant and still linked) was one of the most rhythmically-impoverished musical traditions in the world. That pretty much nails it on the head -- what a person is trained to from the beginning. Time to start teaching beginners in a different manner. Good luck in a society where Dead European White Males of 200-250 years ago are still looked on as the epitome of musical composition. But do Indian musicians use printed music with time signatures? I was under the impression that time signatures were not part of their music. I was under the impression that they learned the rhythms of the various ragas in groups of equal beats (3 + 5 + 4 + 5 or some such) and that it wasn't written down. The only book I currently have on ragas is without time signatures but it is mostly the various scales which would be used to improvise on the various rhythmic groupings. I can't find the one book I've seen concerning the rhythmic groupings but I don't seem to recall seeing a time signature in that book. That is very different from trying to communicate music without it's being heard first, such as these irrational time signatures do. Using Western notation to communicate music which is best communicated in non-printed ways (often so much easier when the conductor says ignore the printed music, it goes like this and then sings it). -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: 2/10 time signature
On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:13:22 -0400, Christopher BJ Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 10:24 PM -0600 7/13/04, shirling neueweise wrote: christopher, in all the cases i have seen using what are now commonly given the unfortunate name of irrational time signatures (*), the whole value implied is the whole note. 1/6 is indeed one-sixth of a whole note (quarter note triplet, as you wrote). Thank you. I am glad I have not been blowin' smoke all these years. I haven't been following this thread all that closely, but I've come up with a question: in, for example, 3/6 meter, do you still have to mark the notes as three triplet quarters? Or does the 6 on the bottom imply that all quarters have quarter-triplet value? -- Brad Beyenhof [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://augmentedfourth.blogspot.com ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: 2/10 time signature
At 9:32 AM -0700 7/14/04, Brad Beyenhof wrote: On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:13:22 -0400, Christopher BJ Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 10:24 PM -0600 7/13/04, shirling neueweise wrote: christopher, in all the cases i have seen using what are now commonly given the unfortunate name of irrational time signatures (*), the whole value implied is the whole note. 1/6 is indeed one-sixth of a whole note (quarter note triplet, as you wrote). Thank you. I am glad I have not been blowin' smoke all these years. I haven't been following this thread all that closely, but I've come up with a question: in, for example, 3/6 meter, do you still have to mark the notes as three triplet quarters? Or does the 6 on the bottom imply that all quarters have quarter-triplet value? Yes, I would do so. I probably wouldn't write 3/6, though, as this situation is better covered by 2/4, 4/8, or 1/2, depending on the context. It is quite possible to have one instrument playing REAL quarters while another instrument playes the tuplet, so it is best to keep everything clean and clear. In a measure of 2/6 (an incomplete triplet) I would write 2 quarters with a bracketted 3. I know it's weird to see a triplet with only 2 notes inside the bracket, but it actually feels OK to perform it. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: 2/10 time signature
Christopher BJ Smith wrote: At 9:32 AM -0700 7/14/04, Brad Beyenhof wrote: On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:13:22 -0400, Christopher BJ Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 10:24 PM -0600 7/13/04, shirling neueweise wrote: christopher, in all the cases i have seen using what are now commonly given the unfortunate name of irrational time signatures (*), the whole value implied is the whole note. 1/6 is indeed one-sixth of a whole note (quarter note triplet, as you wrote). Thank you. I am glad I have not been blowin' smoke all these years. I haven't been following this thread all that closely, but I've come up with a question: in, for example, 3/6 meter, do you still have to mark the notes as three triplet quarters? Or does the 6 on the bottom imply that all quarters have quarter-triplet value? Yes, I would do so. I probably wouldn't write 3/6, though, as this situation is better covered by 2/4, 4/8, or 1/2, depending on the context. It is quite possible to have one instrument playing REAL quarters while another instrument playes the tuplet, so it is best to keep everything clean and clear. In a measure of 2/6 (an incomplete triplet) I would write 2 quarters with a bracketted 3. I know it's weird to see a triplet with only 2 notes inside the bracket, but it actually feels OK to perform it. I would regard this as an imperfect solution - a triplet bracket without three beats inside simply doesn't add up. As for the question about 3/6 - yes, the 6 indicates the proportional change of the duration of each quarter note. In response to suggestions elsewhere in the thread that it's possible to use 5x = 4y above barlines instead of x/10 or x/12 metres - that method becomes unwieldly if there are metre changes in most or even every bar. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: 2/10 time signature
shirling neueweise wrote: From: dhbailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] if not all people use it the same way, it can hardly be called a convention or a standard, can it? once past the initial arguments and obstinacy, all people do in fact use and understand it the same way. it is a convention for many. although you certainly don't have to use such time sigs if your music doesn't warrant it, the fact that you don't use them in your musical realm isn't justification for claiming it to be universally non-conventional. And if the meaning isn't clear, should a copy of Henry Cowell's book be included at no charge with the purchase of any music containing such time signatures? is a copy of modus vetus included in every score containing pitch intervals? jef Nope. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: 2/10 time signature
Op 14-jul-04 om 20:43 heeft shirling neueweise het volgende geschreven: From: dhbailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] if not all people use it the same way, it can hardly be called a convention or a standard, can it? once past the initial arguments and obstinacy, all people do in fact use and understand it the same way. it is a convention for many. although you certainly don't have to use such time sigs if your music doesn't warrant it, the fact that you don't use them in your musical realm isn't justification for claiming it to be universally non-conventional. And if the meaning isn't clear, should a copy of Henry Cowell's book be included at no charge with the purchase of any music containing such time signatures? is a copy of modus vetus included in every score containing pitch intervals? yes, internalized in the mind of the performer... klaas jef -- shirling neueweise \/ new music notation specialists mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :.../ http://newmusicnotation.com ++ ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: 2/10 time signature
On Jul 13, 2004, at 11:42 AM, shirling neueweise wrote: hi owain, dennis explained most of it already. if you want it to cover the existing time sigs (there seems to be no other way to do this at present), [...] This calls for a feature request. The key, I think, is to ask for something that Coda could easily deliver. I'm not sure exactly how hard it would be for the programmers to redo Finale so that it can actually make sense of the non-standard time signatures, but I'm sure it would be a much lesser task for them to simply add an option to the Display As option which lets you type in directly any numerals you want to appear as the numerator and denominator. I think that would satisfy most users and would be a relatively simple fix for the programmers. By the way, is this something which might currently be addressed in the ETF file? Seems like the numbers to display must be in there somewhere, and if you know how to find them maybe you could just alter them there. mdl ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: 2/10 time signature
shirling neueweise wrote: hi owain, dennis explained most of it already. if you want it to cover the existing time sigs (there seems to be no other way to do this at present), you'll need to create (in the shape expression designer) a white filled box with no border, barely wider than the existing numbers, and overlay the number(s) for the time sig. then add 5 horizontal lines for the staff lines (takes some fiddling to get the placement right) - make sure they are the same thickness as your document staff lines and just longer than the width of the blank square. once perfectly aligned, make a copy and remove outer lines accordingly for use on percussion staves. use staff lists to assign the expression(s). don't forget to change the cautionary time sigs at the end of a system preceding the /10 or /12 etc. time sigs. the placement of the top left of the time signature at the 0/0 point in the shape designer will help later for controlling placement of the expression: set it to 0 vertical / 0 horizontal, measure-attached, and move horizontally as needed. last step, prepare yourself for a wave of commentary explaining how there is no reason in hell some dilettante composer who obviously knows nothing about notation traditions has the right to force the musician to learn to play what amounts to truncated triplet/quintuplet groups, blah blah blah, how you can't SERIOUSLY expect anyone to understand such abstract intellectualizations, blah blah blah, how you clearly haven't understood that notation should define the music and not the inverse, blah blah blah... but since we've been through all that before on this list, you might be lucky enough to avoid it this time around 8^) fight the fight! jef I really don't care what composers want to write - if it makes sense to them, let them write it. If it makes sense to others, it'll get played, and if it doesn't, it won't get played. BUT, I would love to see a feature added to Finale's time signature tool, whereby we can DEFINE the Use Different Time Signature For Display. It would have the ability to use any numbers (the digits 0 to 9 in any combinations which fit the traditional number-over-number) or note type. I don't think it should be so hard for them to implement, since they provide us with the capability of using any time signature for display, even one that has no bearing on the actual music. So placing graphic time signatures is already in place, it would merely require them to allow us to assign what elements go where in the display. It would certainly make it easy to do what Owain is asking about, and for professional engraving purposes it would make life a lot easier in dealing with modern notation. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: 2/10 time signature
On Jul 13, 2004, at 12:56 PM, dhbailey wrote: I really don't care what composers want to write - if it makes sense to them, let them write it. If it makes sense to others, it'll get played, and if it doesn't, it won't get played. BUT, I would love to see a feature added to Finale's time signature tool, whereby we can DEFINE the Use Different Time Signature For Display. It would have the ability to use any numbers (the digits 0 to 9 in any combinations which fit the traditional number-over-number) or note type. I completely concur. I would further suggest that the plus sign be allowed as well as numerals. For that matter, I see no reason why they shouldn't allow you to type any character you want and faithfully render it in whatever font has been chosen for the time signature font. If 90% of them come out wanky-looking, so what? That's the user's problem for entering something other than a number. It doesn't hurt anything, just as it doesn't hurt anything that in the current Finale I could choose a clef for a notehead if I wanted to. It would also be nifty if there were a mechanism for adding large parentheses around a whole piece (top and bottom) of time signature, but I suppose that would be a little harder to implement. While I believe that non-power-of-two denominators are a fairly specialty demand, other irregular time signatures like, say, 7/8 (3+4/8) aren't so rare. The fact that Finale doesn't have an easy mechanism to allow the user to create irregular time signatures is a fairly significant shortcoming. They could accomplish a lot by simply expanding the use a different time signature for display to give the user a little collection of building blocks from which a wide variety of permutations could be made. One possibility would be that the use a different time signature for display be expanded to provide three different options. The first would be the current scheme, including its confusing but useful composite option; the second would be two text inputs in which one types any string of characters for the numerator and the denominator; and the third would bounce you to the shape designer where you can cook up whatever you like. In any case, Finale treats the resulting image as a time signature and displays and spaces it accordingly. mdl ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: 2/10 time signature
On Jul 13, 2004, at 1:36 PM, Barbara Touburg wrote: Interesting suggestion. I've just tried it. In the ETF file, the line that describes the time signature reads: ^MS(1) 4 1024 240 0 0 0 (4/4 time). Ah, that's very unfortunate. I was hoping it would encode the value of the actual character displayed, not its rhythmic value in EDUs. This also suggests that my idea for expanding the use a different time signature for display option might not be so easy as I imagined. It seems that the underlying code is designed to think only in terms of EDUs there. What happens if you use the current use a different time signature for display? Still represented in EDUs, I imagine. Too bad. mdl ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: 2/10 time signature
shirling neueweise wrote: hi owain, dennis explained most of it already. if you want it to cover the existing time sigs (there seems to be no other way to do this at present), you'll need to create (in the shape expression designer) a white filled box with no border, barely wider than the existing numbers, and overlay the number(s) for the time sig. then add 5 horizontal lines for the staff lines (takes some fiddling to get the placement right) - make sure they are the same thickness as your document staff lines and just longer than the width of the blank square. once perfectly aligned, make a copy and remove outer lines accordingly for use on percussion staves. use staff lists to assign the expression(s). don't forget to change the cautionary time sigs at the end of a system preceding the /10 or /12 etc. time sigs. the placement of the top left of the time signature at the 0/0 point in the shape designer will help later for controlling placement of the expression: set it to 0 vertical / 0 horizontal, measure-attached, and move horizontally as needed. last step, prepare yourself for a wave of commentary explaining how there is no reason in hell some dilettante composer who obviously knows nothing about notation traditions has the right to force the musician to learn to play what amounts to truncated triplet/quintuplet groups, blah blah blah, how you can't SERIOUSLY expect anyone to understand such abstract intellectualizations, blah blah blah, how you clearly haven't understood that notation should define the music and not the inverse, blah blah blah... but since we've been through all that before on this list, you might be lucky enough to avoid it this time around 8^) fight the fight! jef Dammit yet another reason to leave 2003 behindStill doesn't do what I'm asking (and hey, why shouldn't all this be included in MIDI as well?) I'm wondering whether I should consider emailing composers who have certainly written such signatures in Finale, and asking how they did it. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: 2/10 time signature
At 11:23 PM +0100 7/13/04, Owain Sutton wrote: I'm wondering whether I should consider emailing composers who have certainly written such signatures in Finale, and asking how they did it. Heh, heh! Around these parts, they probably sent their pencil score to jef and asked him to do it! Christopher (jef, you can send me the $20 standard fee for an endorsement by regular mail. No personal cheques, please!) 8-) ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: 2/10 time signature
shirling neueweise wrote: christopher, in all the cases i have seen using what are now commonly given the unfortunate name of irrational time signatures (*), the whole value implied is the whole note. 1/6 is indeed one-sixth of a whole note (quarter note triplet, as you wrote). re metric modulation: is it really easier to calculate a metric modulation on the fly (or does it take less time in rehearsal to calculate), than playing x number of triplet values following straight quarters (for example)? it seems to me that any professional musician working today (it is assumed that is who will be reading the part) should be able to feel and play triplet or quintuplet values without any calculation, as easily as s/he can play a change from straight quarters to straight eighths, or to swing. it is not really such a radical change of perspective (neither tactile nor intellectual) as is often implied. /2 = half note /3 = third note (half note triplets) /4 = quarter note /5 = fifth note (quarter note quintuplets) /6 = sixth note (quarter note triplets) /8 = eighth note /10 = tenth note (eighth note quintuplets) /12 = twelfth note (eighth note triplets) /16 = sixteenth note /20 = twentieth note (sixteenth note quintuplets) /24 = twenty-fourth note (sixteenth note triplets) cowell, new music resources and a few of his compositions; cage, music of changes; boulez, 2-2/3 quarter time sig near end of pli selon pli (the exact details might be wrong, i don't have the score in front of me); most ferneyhough since late 1970's; and innumerable european composers (as well as a handful of north american composers) in the past 20 years have used these time signatures. examples and performers of these notational delicacies abound. jef (*) indian musicians would never complain about having to perform such irrational values, would not even consider them irrational, having been trained in a variety of rhythmic contexts right from their earliest lessons and musical experiences, while the western-trained musician is taught only binary values or possibilities in virtually all musical realms. up until the early 1950's, the western european music tradition (of which the north american is descendant and still linked) was one of the most rhythmically-impoverished musical traditions in the world. I certainly agree that it is a reasonable expectation for performers to be able to understand these time signatures - they're not a new innovation by any measure. (Pun not intended!) And when dealing with a change of metre every single bar, they're far far easier to deal with, easier to *feel* relationships with, than other indications that could be used (and it's not possible to indicate a 2/10 bar between two 3/8 bars with tuplets, for example, anyway). I wouldn't agree that wester music has always been so restricted - the music of Ciconia, fl c1400, deserves a listen. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
