Re: [Firebird-devel] Compiler for official Firebird 4 release on Windows
On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 10:38:16AM -0500, Jim Starkey wrote: > I'm not at all sure that having "official" Firebird compilers is that > good of an idea. > > The basic principle is that the code should work on a wide variety of > compilers. You (and not only you) are mixing two very different questions: (1) what compiler should be used to build the official binaries provided for download on project web (2) what compilers should be the code compatible with The discussion started with question (1) (and that only for one platform) but some people started mixing in (2). We can build our official windows binaries with whatever latest and greatest MSVC version we choose and still have code compatible with older versions. If we decided to use c++11 or even c++14 specific language (or standard library) features, that would be a completely different situation, of course. But that's not what this discussion is about. > My experience has always been that if an unfamiliar compiler > produces errors, warning, or unexpected results, the probably has almost > always been with the code, not the compiler, usually a latent bug > prepared to expose itself later. FB3 code already does not compile with gcc version present in some actively maintained linux distributions. But it's compiler's fault so while it means some extra work for me, I fully agree with the decision not to work around this problem in the upstream codebase and let distribution packagers add the workaround where needed. > With an official compiler, the > temptation will always be to write off an unexpected results from an > "unofficial" compiler as an aberration. Perhaps I'm too optimistic but I believe the need to build the codebase with different toolchains on several different platforms does prevent this risk. After all, there were already examples of problems revealed by new versions of gcc or clang. > And no, it is perfectly reasonable for the client and the server to run > on different platforms, which makes the question whether the server and > client should use the same compiler meaningless. A clarification is needed here, obviously. I wasn't talking about client and server talking to each other via TCP. What I was replying to was the idea of building the official client library and server binaries intended to be used together on one system with two different compilers. Michal Kubecek -- Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151=/4140 Firebird-Devel mailing list, web interface at https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/firebird-devel
[Firebird-devel] [FB-Tracker] Created: (CORE-5122) Expression index may not be used by the optimizer if created and used in different connection charsets
Expression index may not be used by the optimizer if created and used in different connection charsets -- Key: CORE-5122 URL: http://tracker.firebirdsql.org/browse/CORE-5122 Project: Firebird Core Issue Type: Bug Components: Engine Affects Versions: 2.5.5, 3.0 RC1, 3.0 Beta 2, 2.5.4, 3.0 Beta 1, 2.5.3, 3.0 RC2 Reporter: Dmitry Yemanov If the index expression contains a string literal, e.g. computed by (my_udf(my_field, 'ABC')) or computed by (my_field || 'ABC'), index is created in connection charset X but used in connections with charset other than X, then index and user expressions are considered different and index is not used by the optimizer. This is a regression introduced in v2.5.3 as well as in v3.0. -- This message is automatically generated by JIRA. - If you think it was sent incorrectly contact one of the administrators: http://tracker.firebirdsql.org/secure/Administrators.jspa - For more information on JIRA, see: http://www.atlassian.com/software/jira -- Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151=/4140 Firebird-Devel mailing list, web interface at https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/firebird-devel
Re: [Firebird-devel] Compiler for official Firebird 4 release on Windows
>> Anyway, my point is just to show that those 2 systems can still be >> widely used in some parts of the world, and this should be taken into >> the math when taking any decision. JČ> Just out of curiosity. Are these systems going to be upgraded to JČ> Firebird 4? You need to ask the Oracle :) []s Carlos http://www.firebirdnews.org FireBase - http://www.FireBase.com.br -- Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151=/4140 Firebird-Devel mailing list, web interface at https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/firebird-devel
Re: [Firebird-devel] Compiler for official Firebird 4 release on Windows
On 2016-02-29 13:02, Carlos H. Cantu wrote: > MR> Let me make my position clear: I don't see the need to support a > 14 > MR> year old OS that has had no updates (including security updates) > since > MR> April 2014. If you're in business with such systems, you are > operating > MR> irresponsibly and I see no need to support such behavior. Also if > you > MR> are using such outdated systems, how likely is that you update to > a > MR> newer Firebird version; I think that is unlikely, so again why > would we > MR> need or want to support that. > > When you say "you", I hope you are referring the message reader, and > not myself, I was using the indefinite you to refer to "people still using XP". Mark -- Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151=/4140 Firebird-Devel mailing list, web interface at https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/firebird-devel
Re: [Firebird-devel] Compiler for official Firebird 4 release on Windows
On 2/29/2016 2:19 AM, Michal Kubecek wrote: > . > > Question: Does this problem would also affect the compiled client > library? Or do you guys also think nobody using Win XP/2003 will needs > to connect to Firebird? > First, the discussion is about a version which, extrapolating from > previous release dates, is not likely to be released before 2020. > Second, IIUC, you should still be able to connect to a 4.0 server with > 3.0 client library. > > That said, using a different compiler for server and client sounds like > asking for trouble to me. (On the other hand, the most recent Windows > IDE I have experience with is Borland C++ Builder 6 so you don't have > to take me too seriously.) > > I'm not at all sure that having "official" Firebird compilers is that good of an idea. The basic principle is that the code should work on a wide variety of compilers. My experience has always been that if an unfamiliar compiler produces errors, warning, or unexpected results, the probably has almost always been with the code, not the compiler, usually a latent bug prepared to expose itself later. With an official compiler, the temptation will always be to write off an unexpected results from an "unofficial" compiler as an aberration. The primary question is always which platforms to support. If the project chooses to support a platform, the code should compile on whatever had been the generally accepted compilers when that platform was active. There is often a drive to use every possible C++ feature (and Firebird has this problem in spaces), and the availability of new C++ language features and compilers to support them, but the desire to use new language features should not dictate which platforms or compilers to use. Yes, there are cases where this can be painful. Sun's refusal to support function prototypes required substantial (and ugly) workarounds, but the value of function prototypes on most platforms made the cost acceptable. There are many, many fewer platforms now than in the past. At one point, Interbase was supporting 19 more or less incompatible Unixes as every dying computer company tried to establish their own definitive balance between System V and BSD (and the introduction of Posix made everything much worse). But we coped. Using a variety of compilers, even old compilers will make the code base and the project stronger. And no, it is perfectly reasonable for the client and the server to run on different platforms, which makes the question whether the server and client should use the same compiler meaningless. -- Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151=/4140 Firebird-Devel mailing list, web interface at https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/firebird-devel
Re: [Firebird-devel] Compiler for official Firebird 4 release on Windows
> About outdated, insecure environments, you have no idea about what you > can find here, and I will not even speak about this :D > > Anyway, my point is just to show that those 2 systems can still be > widely used in some parts of the world, and this should be taken into > the math when taking any decision. Just out of curiosity. Are these systems going to be upgraded to Firebird 4? -- Mgr. Jiří Činčura Independent IT Specialist -- Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151=/4140 Firebird-Devel mailing list, web interface at https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/firebird-devel
Re: [Firebird-devel] Compiler for official Firebird 4 release on Windows
MR> Let me make my position clear: I don't see the need to support a 14 MR> year old OS that has had no updates (including security updates) since MR> April 2014. If you're in business with such systems, you are operating MR> irresponsibly and I see no need to support such behavior. Also if you MR> are using such outdated systems, how likely is that you update to a MR> newer Firebird version; I think that is unlikely, so again why would we MR> need or want to support that. When you say "you", I hope you are referring the message reader, and not myself, since I don't use XP or Win2003, but I have a Firebird dedicated portal with +72.000 registered people and I can assure you that those 2 systems are still being used in Brazil (who, btw, has the biggest Firebird user base in the world). So, I'm here just to show the scenario, not to fight for my personal needs (specially when they do not apply in this case). About outdated, insecure environments, you have no idea about what you can find here, and I will not even speak about this :D Anyway, my point is just to show that those 2 systems can still be widely used in some parts of the world, and this should be taken into the math when taking any decision. []s Carlos http://www.firebirdnews.org FireBase - http://www.FireBase.com.br -- Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151=/4140 Firebird-Devel mailing list, web interface at https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/firebird-devel
Re: [Firebird-devel] Compiler for official Firebird 4 release on Windows
> Let me make my position clear: I don't see the need to support a 14 > year old OS that has had no updates (including security updates) since > April 2014. If you're in business with such systems, you are operating > irresponsibly and I see no need to support such behavior. Also if you > are using such outdated systems, how likely is that you update to a > newer Firebird version; I think that is unlikely, so again why would we > need or want to support that. > > And as long as the Firebird 3 or earlier fbclient.dll / libfbclient.so > can be used with Firebird 4, then you can still use those systems as > clients, without encumbering the project. Or if you really want to run on that platform, you can pay for it. Simple as that. Burning our resources on this is just not worth it, IMHO. -- Mgr. Jiří Činčura Independent IT Specialist -- Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151=/4140 Firebird-Devel mailing list, web interface at https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/firebird-devel
Re: [Firebird-devel] Compiler for official Firebird 4 release on Windows
On 2016-02-29 1:25, Carlos H. Cantu wrote: >>> However, I seriously question the need to support Windows XP and >>> Windows Server 2003 for Firebird 4. > > LS> I completely agree! > LS> There comes a time when some OSs/installs need to be recognized > as *legacy*. > LS> Systems based on those platforms need to recognize that they > LS> can't be running the latest/greatest software. In the FB case, > v3 > LS> will still run on/be supported for those platforms for several > more years. > LS> Sean > > > Afaiu, there is a problem with some specific version of MSVC that > generate code that doesn't work on WinXP/2003 so, you guys are now > talking about dropping support to such Windows versions, so this > compiler could be used. > > Question: Does this problem would also affect the compiled client > library? Or do you guys also think nobody using Win XP/2003 will > needs > to connect to Firebird? Let me make my position clear: I don't see the need to support a 14 year old OS that has had no updates (including security updates) since April 2014. If you're in business with such systems, you are operating irresponsibly and I see no need to support such behavior. Also if you are using such outdated systems, how likely is that you update to a newer Firebird version; I think that is unlikely, so again why would we need or want to support that. And as long as the Firebird 3 or earlier fbclient.dll / libfbclient.so can be used with Firebird 4, then you can still use those systems as clients, without encumbering the project. Mark -- Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151=/4140 Firebird-Devel mailing list, web interface at https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/firebird-devel
Re: [Firebird-devel] Compiler for official Firebird 4 release on Windows
On 28/02/16 18:19, Leyne, Sean wrote: > >> > However, I seriously question the need to support Windows XP and >> > Windows Server 2003 for Firebird 4. > I completely agree! > > There comes a time when some OSs/installs need to be recognized as *legacy*. > > Systems based on those platforms need to recognize that they can't > be running the latest/greatest software. > In the FB case, v3 will still run on/be supported for > those platforms for several more years. I do have to ask the more pertinent question ... will windows still be around in 10 years time? We have much the same discussion on other projects about making things compile on windows, where on other platforms it's simply a matter of keeping in sync with the libraries used. I have legacy windows code that was developed on Windows98 - talking to Interbase - and is still running today as long as I keep to 32bit versions of windows ... not for the SOFTWARE, but so I can still use the parallel port to control the hardware! Many of my client systems are however now mobile device based, and these are replacing windows desktop machines all over the place. Clients tend to be OS agnostic? We can keep legacy systems working simply because we do not necessarily need to upgrade. Heck I still have a couple of FB1.5 machines running because they do the job. So the question really is if an improvement relies on some change in the target OS is it worth the time spent, or will it detract from the same functions working across all OS's ? That M$ seems to break perfectly functional code at every compiler upgrade is the agro, and is there no way to mitigate that by some 'bc fix' file? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk -- Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151=/4140 Firebird-Devel mailing list, web interface at https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/firebird-devel
Re: [Firebird-devel] Compiler for official Firebird 4 release on Windows
2016. 02. 28. 12:21 keltezéssel, Mark Rotteveel írta: > However, I seriously question the need to support Windows XP and Windows > Server 2003 for Firebird 4. I have no right to vote, but I think that Windows 7 SP1 / Windows Server 2008 R2 SP1 perfectly reasonable minimum requirement. Gabor -- Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151=/4140 Firebird-Devel mailing list, web interface at https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/firebird-devel
Re: [Firebird-devel] Compiler for official Firebird 4 release on Windows
>> I'm quite happy with VS 2013 Community Edition, but I never tried VS >> 2015 and I'm mostly on Linux during the last years. >> >> Vlad, do you have any preference? > > I used VS 2013 for a long time and still have no look at VS 2015. > So, VS 2012 definitely out of question ;) Hi All, Nice to hear, because if somebody want to contribute or just try to build can do it easily and freely with 2013 CE. For 4.0 please use the official compiler for snapshot builds too. If the official is 2013.5 build the snapshots with this version also. Gabor -- Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151=/4140 Firebird-Devel mailing list, web interface at https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/firebird-devel
Re: [Firebird-devel] Compiler for official Firebird 4 release on Windows
>> There comes a time when some OSs/installs need to be recognized as *legacy*. > Such as Solaris, for example?.. Still alive and kicking I am afraid. Firebird 2.5 Compiles cleanly for Solaris and is in use. Paul -- Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151=/4140 Firebird-Devel mailing list, web interface at https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/firebird-devel
