Bob -- On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Robert Ulanowicz <u...@umces.edu> wrote > > > Subject: Re: [Fis] Tactilizing processing > To: Stanley N Salthe <ssal...@binghamton.edu> > Cc: u...@cbl.umces.edu > > > Quoting Stanley N Salthe <ssal...@binghamton.edu>: > > I suggested that a single small scale fluctuation near thermodynamic >> equilibrium might have an upscale effect if a larger scale configuration >> was >> in place (perhaps by way of a larger scale fluctuation) that was able to >> be >> impacted by that fluctuation in such a way as to alter its configuration >> in >> a way that would be preserved long enough for it to be detected by a still >> larger scale configuration, thus letting one signal go from micro through >> meso to macro. But, for this to be other than a passing event, this would >> require some kind of system for which such information might be adaptive, >> and so it would be specially organized in such a way as to play this game >> rather than being limited to the well-known physical model of ensemble >> detection of lower scale events. Or it would just be a passing accidental >> synchronization of fluctuations at different scales. >> > > Stan, Isn't the upward propagation of a small event to the next level > Prigogine's "order through fluctuations"? (Not across two levels though.) > Bob >
The Prigogine model is part of the background of my statement above. In the Prigogine case, the process of self-organization is pulled by entropy production intensification as a result of a particular level of available free energy (more than could be dissipated by conduction, and not so much as to result in turbulence). The experimental setup is organized so as to obtain the resulting dissipative structure. As well, the energy flows in this case of 'order through fluctuations' are not individual molecule fluctuations at the lower level being propagated to the higher level as seemingly suggested by Conrad's thinking, but a simultaneous reorganization of the whole system of flow from disorganized to organized. I don't THINK that anyone has suggested that this transition is seeded by the fluctuation of a single molecule in the fluid. The fluctuations Prigogine had in mind were, I think, manifest at the scale of the flow itself, which 'searches' through various configurations to find the one that is stable at the given flow level in the given set of boundary conditions. Are you aware of any suggestion that these variations are seeded by individual fluid molecules and then amplified upscale? STAN > > > ----- End forwarded message ----- > > >
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