Re: [Fis] reply to Loet

[Stanley N Salthe]

Loet -- You wrote:

This is the case for natural systems and engineered systems (Herbert
Simon). However, above the individual the hierarchy is inverted because
collectively the communication is faster than the individual can
reflexively follow.

S: In general, while smaller scale systems can accelerate more quickly than
large scale ones, large scale ones are capable of greater absolute rates of
speed. Now, I gather that you are here speaking of non-natural systems --
i.e., human mechanical arrangements and social constructions.  It is a
complex question, but I will venture the possibility that what is happening
here is NOT acceleration, but absolute speeds, which in larger scale
systems can be faster. As a possible example, consider a firearm. The
bullet seems to be of small scale, and this might match its initial
acceleration, but its continued speed would be the speed of the large scale
social system that constructed it.

 The complexity and speed of communication can be enhanced by codification.
The cultural system operates in terms of expectations (from the perspective
of hindsight) and therefore against the entropy law.

S: (Nothing can go against the 'entropy law'.)  A nice example for you
might be communication over distances by flashing lights using the Morse
code.  The actual local operations here may not be the best framework to
view this (including in thermodynamic terms). Again, I could subsume this
example into my above argument -- that is, it is the social system that is
communicating, not individual persons.  It takes two positions for this
communication to occur, and this makes the system a large scale one, and so
its speed of communication is understandable in terms of natural hierarchy
principles.

Then... Krassimir wrote:

The concept “window” not exactly correspond to reality.
Building the “hierarchy”, the Nature uses “structuring” of low levels to
build upper ones.

S: This building from 'bottom-up' is only part of the system. Everything
exists somewhere, and so, your "bottom" was somewhere too before it started
building upwards. This somewhere was its physical context, which will have
imposed various boundary and initial conditions upon the building process.
 This is sometimes called 'downward causation'. So the new level built
would be a level in between the original upper (constraining) and lower
(building) levels.

What we call “window” is the set of elements which are “used” to create the
new level entities with “emergent” features.

S: And what that window 'saw' was the various initial and boundary
conditions that would be imposed upon the building.

STAN

In other words, “channels” do not exist but chains of “structuring” and
“restructuring” processes.


On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 8:20 AM, Loet Leydesdorff wrote:

> S: Yes. These 'windows' are the channels for constraint imposition from
> level to level -- transactions, not direct interactions -- between them.
>  The lower, faster acting, level provides 'data' constructed as ensemble
> data by the higher level, while the higher level imposes relatively
> continuous constraints upon the lower level.
>
>  
>
> In short, there IS need for hierarchy, properly understood.
>
> ** **
>
> Dear Stan, 
>
> ** **
>
> This is the case for natural systems and engineered systems (Herbert
> Simon). However, above the individual the hierarchy is inverted because
> collectively the communication is faster than the individual can
> reflexively follow. The complexity and speed of communication can be
> enhanced by codification. The cultural system operates in terms of
> expectations (from the perspective of hindsight) and therefore against the
> entropy law. 
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks otherwise!
>
> ** **
>
> Best,
>
> Loet
>
> ** **
>
___
fis mailing list
fis@listas.unizar.es
https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

Re: [Fis] reply to Loet

[Loet Leydesdorff]

S: Yes. These 'windows' are the channels for constraint imposition from
level to level -- transactions, not direct interactions -- between them.
The lower, faster acting, level provides 'data' constructed as ensemble data
by the higher level, while the higher level imposes relatively continuous
constraints upon the lower level.

 

In short, there IS need for hierarchy, properly understood.

 

Dear Stan, 

 

This is the case for natural systems and engineered systems (Herbert Simon).
However, above the individual the hierarchy is inverted because collectively
the communication is faster than the individual can reflexively follow. The
complexity and speed of communication can be enhanced by codification. The
cultural system operates in terms of expectations (from the perspective of
hindsight) and therefore against the entropy law. 

 

Thanks otherwise!

 

Best,

Loet

 

___
fis mailing list
fis@listas.unizar.es
https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

[Fis] AISB is celebrating 50th anniversary in 2014 - Invitation to the symposium Representation and Reality

[Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic]

Dear FIS Colleagues,

The society for the study of Artificial Intelligence and the Simulation of 
Behaviour (the AISB) is celebrating 50th anniversary in 2014, see 
http://aisb50.org/

We would especially like to invite you to the symposium titled Representation 
and Reality that we are organizing: 
https://sites.google.com/site/representationofreality/home and we hope you 
might be interested in contributing.

With very best regards,

Gordana Dodig Crnkovic and Raffaela Giovagnoli




Dr Dr Gordana Dodig Crnkovic,
Professor
School of Innovation, Design and Engineering
Mälardalen University
Sweden
http://www.mrtc.mdh.se/~gdc/

Organizer of the Symposium on Natural/Unconventional Computing,
the Turing Centenary  World Congress of AISB/IACAP
https://sites.google.com/site/naturalcomputingaisbiacap2012


___
fis mailing list
fis@listas.unizar.es
https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis