Re: [Fis] Fw: Krassimir's Information Quadruple and GIT. Quintuples?

[Guy A Hoelzer]

John,

I think you are misreading Stan’s comments a little.  [Stan:  please correct me 
if I am wrong about that.]  I think it would be fair to say that older car 
engines were less well fit "between the energy gradient and the system 
attempting to utilize it”.  Another way of saying this is that the older car 
engine mechanism was less efficient in dissipating that gradient, which 
translated into low gas mileage.  Those engines had to work harder in 
delivering the same outcome (say driving 1 mile) than the newer, more efficient 
engines.  The capacity of the new engines to work harder than old engines does 
not mean they work harder to produce the same outcome.  I don’t see the flaw in 
saying that working harder to achieve a constant outcome degrades more energy.  
Clever design and selection can indeed utilize information to yield greater 
efficiencies, which can only approach the limit imposed by the 2nd law.  It 
looks to me like you and Stan are really in agreement here.  Am I missing 
something?

Cheers,

Guy

On Sep 4, 2014, at 1:06 PM, John Collier 
mailto:colli...@ukzn.ac.za>> wrote:

S: In decline in the actual material world that we inhabit.  That is, the local 
world -- the world of input and dissipation.  I think the information problem 
may be advanced if we try to explain why the energy efficiency of any work is 
so poor, and gets worse the harder we work. This is the key local phenomenon 
that needs to be understood.

JC: Information can be used to improve efficiency.

SS: That is not same question.  Which is: Why is any work constitutively poor 
in energy efficiency?  I wrote a little essay ( Entropy: what does it really 
mean?  General Systems Bulletin  32:5-12.) suggesting that it results from a 
lack of fittingness between energy gradient and the system attempting to 
utilize it -- that is, that it is an information problem.

Actually, it is part of the same question. As I have said many times, you 
trivialize the idea of maximum entropy production if you relativize it to all 
constraints. Howard has made this sort of point over and over as well.

But you are right that the important factor is an information problem.

I was once asked to referee a paper that argued that we could get around 2nd 
law degradation by using the exhaust heat in a clever way, and keep doing this 
ad infinitum. I pointed out (sarcastically) that we could do this, but only if 
we could make smaller and smaller people to use the energy (apologies to Kurt 
Vonnegut).

We get much more work out of gasoline engines than we used to, even though most 
are smaller and work harder. So, no, it is not in general true that harder work 
degrades more energy. Clever design (and selection) can make a difference that 
is more significant.

John


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Re: [Fis] Fw: Krassimir's Information Quadruple and GIT. Quintuples?

[John Collier]

S: In decline in the actual material world that we inhabit.  That is, the local 
world -- the world of input and dissipation.  I think the information problem 
may be advanced if we try to explain why the energy efficiency of any work is 
so poor, and gets worse the harder we work. This is the key local phenomenon 
that needs to be understood.



JC: Information can be used to improve efficiency.



SS: That is not same question.  Which is: Why is any work constitutively poor 
in energy efficiency?  I wrote a little essay ( Entropy: what does it really 
mean?  General Systems Bulletin  32:5-12.) suggesting that it results from a 
lack of fittingness between energy gradient and the system attempting to 
utilize it -- that is, that it is an information problem.


Actually, it is part of the same question. As I have said many times, you 
trivialize the idea of maximum entropy production if you relativize it to all 
constraints. Howard has made this sort of point over and over as well.

But you are right that the important factor is an information problem.

I was once asked to referee a paper that argued that we could get around 2nd 
law degradation by using the exhaust heat in a clever way, and keep doing this 
ad infinitum. I pointed out (sarcastically) that we could do this, but only if 
we could make smaller and smaller people to use the energy (apologies to Kurt 
Vonnegut).

We get much more work out of gasoline engines than we used to, even though most 
are smaller and work harder. So, no, it is not in general true that harder work 
degrades more energy. Clever design (and selection) can make a difference that 
is more significant.

John


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Re: [Fis] Fw: Krassimir's Information Quadruple and GIT. Quintuples?

[Stanley N Salthe]

John wrote:


Catching up after a myriad of distracting problems.


At 03:51 PM 2014-08-25, Stanley N Salthe wrote:

Bob wrote:


Recall that some thermodynamic variables, especially work functions like

Helmholz & Gibbs free energies and exergy all are tightly related to

information measures. In statistical mechanical analogs, for example, the

exergy becomes RT times the mutual information among the molecules


S: So, the more organized, the more potential available energy.


JC: I think not, Stan. Organization requires a middling degree of
complexity. Exergy is maximized when the mutual information is 1, like in a
crystal. Crystals are not highly organized. See Collier and Hooker Complexly
Organised Dynamical Systems 
(1999) for discussion.


SS: An excellent paper, that I have used in my thinking.  I was assuming
complex, not simple systems.


RU: I happen to be a radical who feels that the term "energy" is a construct

with little ontological depth.


S: I believe it has instead ontological breadth!


RU: It is a bookkeeping device (a nice one, of course, but bookkeeping
nonetheless). It was devised to maintain the Platonic worldview. Messrs.
Meyer & Joule simply gave us the conversion factors to make it look like
energy is constant.


S: It IS constant in the adiabatic boxes used to measure it.


 RU: *Real* energy is always in decline -- witness what happens to the work
functions I just mentioned.


S: In decline in the actual material world that we inhabit.  That is, the
local world -- the world of input and dissipation.  I think the information
problem may be advanced if we try to explain why the energy efficiency of
any work is so poor, and gets worse the harder we work. This is the key
local phenomenon that needs to be understood.


JC: Information can be used to improve efficiency.


SS: That is not same question.  Which is: Why is any work constitutively
poor in energy efficiency?  I wrote a little essay ( Entropy: what does it
really mean?  *General Systems Bulletin*  32:5-12.) suggesting that it
results from a lack of fittingness between energy gradient and the system
attempting to utilize it -- that is, that it is an information problem.


STAN


John


On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 9:16 AM, John Collier  wrote:

>  Catching up after a myriad of distracting problems.
>
> At 03:51 PM 2014-08-25, Stanley N Salthe wrote:
>
> Bob wrote:
>
> Recall that some thermodynamic variables, especially work functions like
> Helmholz & Gibbs free energies and exergy all are tightly related to
> information measures. In statistical mechanical analogs, for example, the
> exergy becomes RT times the mutual information among the molecules
>
> S: So, the more organized, the more potential available energy.
>
>
> I think not, Stan. Organization requires a middling degree of complexity.
> Exergy is maximized when the mutual information is 1, like in a crystal.
> Crystals are not highly organized. See Collier and Hooker Complexly
> Organised Dynamical Systems 
> (1999) for discussion.
>
> I happen to be a radical who feels that the term "energy" is a construct
> with little ontological depth.
>
> S: I believe it has instead ontological breadth!
>
> It is a bookkeeping device (a nice one, of course, but bookkeeping
> nonetheless).
> It was devised to maintain the Platonic worldview. Messrs. Meyer & Joule
> simply
> gave us the conversion factors to make it look like energy is constant.
>
> S: It IS constant in the adiabatic boxes used to measure it.
>
>  *Real* energy is always in decline -- witness what happens to the work
> functions I
> just mentioned.
>
> S: In decline in the actual material world that we inhabit.  That is, the
> local world -- the world of input and dissipation.  I think the information
> problem may be advanced if we try to explain why the energy efficiency of
> any work is so poor, and gets worse the harder we work. This is the key
> local phenomenon that needs to be understood.
>
>
> Information can be used to improve efficiency.
>
> John
>
>
>  --
> Professor John Collier
> colli...@ukzn.ac.za
> Philosophy and Ethics, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Durban 4041 South
> Africa
> T: +27 (31) 260 3248 / 260 2292   F: +27 (31) 260 3031
>  Http://web.ncf.ca/collier
>  
>
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Re: [Fis] Fw: Krassimir's Information Quadruple and GIT. Quintuples?

[John Collier]

Catching up after a myriad of distracting problems.
At 03:51 PM 2014-08-25, Stanley N Salthe wrote:
Bob wrote: 
Recall that some thermodynamic variables, especially work functions
like
Helmholz & Gibbs free energies and exergy all are tightly related
to
information measures. In statistical mechanical analogs, for example,
the
exergy becomes RT times the mutual information among the
molecules
S: So, the more organized, the more potential available energy.

I think not, Stan. Organization requires a middling degree of complexity.
Exergy is maximized when the mutual information is 1, like in a crystal.
Crystals are not highly organized. See Collier and Hooker
Complexly Organised
Dynamical Systems (1999) for discussion.
I happen to be a radical who
feels that the term "energy" is a construct
with little ontological depth.
S: I believe it has instead ontological breadth!
It is a bookkeeping device (a nice one, of course, but bookkeeping
nonetheless). 
It was devised to maintain the Platonic worldview. Messrs. Meyer &
Joule simply 
gave us the conversion factors to make it look like energy is
constant.
S: It IS constant in the adiabatic boxes used to measure it.
 *Real* energy is always in decline -- witness what happens to the
work functions I 
just mentioned.
S: In decline in the actual material world that we inhabit.  That
is, the local world -- the world of input and dissipation.  I think
the information problem may be advanced if we try to explain why the
energy efficiency of any work is so poor, and gets worse the harder we
work. This is the key local phenomenon that needs to be understood.

Information can be used to improve efficiency.
John





Professor John
Collier
colli...@ukzn.ac.za
Philosophy and Ethics, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Durban 4041 South
Africa
T: +27 (31) 260 3248 / 260 2292   F:
+27 (31) 260 3031

Http://web.ncf.ca/collier



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