Re: [Fis] Informational Bookkeeping
Hello, One process that could be viewed as a form of bookeeping in cells is telomeric shortening subsequent to cell division. Telomeric shortening, it seems, is related to the diminishing life capital of each living cells. Just as our bank accounts diminish with spending. This could be a good example where information is somewhat seperated from energy. Indeed, the cells' internal energy do not seem to diminish with each cell division. What seems to be reduced is the potentia of each cell to live a long life. This potentia must be related to the cell's capacity to adapt to its environment which in turn could be related to the its informational content...It's just an idea. Best Pridi - Mail original - De: Raquel del Moral rdelmoral.i...@aragon.es À: fis@listas.unizar.es Envoyé: Lundi 8 Septembre 2014 14:11:48 Objet: Re: [Fis] Informational Bookkeeping Dear Pedro, The concept of bookkeeping looks very interesting for biology, however, I can't see clearly how to apply it below the level of nervous systems. Counting maybe found in most biomolecules, but really registering in a book keeping manner is possible in the lower levels? e.g. unicellulars. Do you think that they modify their behaviour after checking their own bookkeeping registers? Just this brief comment! Best, Raquel El 05/09/2014 14:14, Pedro Marijuan escribió: Dear FIS colleagues, A very interesting comment by Bob about energy as a bookkeeping device in the other discussion track motivates these rough reflections. Actually, within the culture of mechanics (following Frank Wilczek) energy appears as the more reliable concept, beyond its cousins force and mass. Mechanics, like most scientific theories, finally is but a method to count upon variable aspects of simplified phenomena and provide inter-subjective objectivity(?). Numbers are due to our mental counting operations; and concepts, formulas and theories become bookkeeping devices to obtain more complex counting that dovetail with more complex phenomena. That our mental counting dovetails with nature's pretended counting is what the experimental side of science tries to establish. It becomes of great merit that energy constructs such as those mentioned by Bob do their bookkeeping accurately, in spite of their intrinsic limitations. My concern with the views expressed in the other track is that informational bookkeeping appears to be rather different from the mechanical physical bookkeeping or counting. There are new aspects not covered by the extensive and inflexible mechanical-dynamic counting, and which are essential to the new informational organizations we are discovering --and practicing around-- and to the new worldview that presumably we should search and promote. Is there bookkeeping in life? Do molecules count? Do bacteria or unicellulars bookkeep--and organisms? And complex brains? And individuals? And social groups? And companies and markets? And cities, regions and countries? Admittedly it is a potpourri; but yes, there are some clear instances where quite explicit a bookkeeping is maintained. It may be about signaling flows, about self production stuff flows, or about their inextricable mixing--involving whatever aspects. But these bookkeepings are made with attentional flexibility and different closure procedures that allow for new forms of compositional hierarchy (informational) not found in the mechanical. They are adaptive, they recognize, they are productively engaged in life cycles where the meaning is generated, they co-create new existential realms... In our own societies, the exaggerated importance of new informational devices (historically: numbers, alphabets, books, calculi, computers, etc.) derives from their facilitation and acceleration of all the enormous bookkeeping activities that subtend the social complexity around. Who knows, focusing on varieties of bookkeeping might be quite productive! best ---Pedro *Pedro C. Marijuán Fernández* Dirección de Investigación Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud (IACS) Instituto de Investigación Sanitaria Aragón (IIS Aragón) Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA) Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta 1 50009 Zaragoza Tfno. +34 976 71 4857 email. dirinvestigacion.i...@aragon.es mailto:dirinvestigacion.i...@aragon.es www.iacs.aragon.es ___ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis . -- - Raquel del Moral Grupo de Bioinformacion / Bioinformation Group Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud Avda. San Juan Bosco 13, 50009 Zaragoza Tfno. +34 976 71 44 76 E-mail. rdelmoral.i...@aragon.es - ___
[Fis] [Fwd: information.energy] Joseph Brenner
- Original Message - *From:* Joseph Brenner mailto:joe.bren...@bluewin.ch *To:* Stanley N Salthe mailto:ssal...@binghamton.edu ; fis mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es ; Robert Ulanowicz mailto:u...@umces.edu *Sent:* Monday, September 08, 2014 6:01 PM *Subject:* Re: [Fis] information.energy Dear Stan, Bob and All, This was a very interesting thread which I feel is worth coming back to. First of all, I see the attitudes of Stan and Bob as not mutually exclusive but complementary. What 'history' means in the 'dim region' where it all began is pretty dim. Second, I agree with Stan's formulation that information implies more than one entity. This suggests to me that it, like energy, is a dualism, sharing some of the dualistic properties of that dim region, somwhere between what is and, to use Arthur Eddington's phrase, what is not. Please do not ask me if and how the above idea can be proven. I consider it as worth mentioning in the context of the foundations of information science because it leaves the door open to the complexities and contradictions of information you much earlier and later I have been struggling with. It is even possible that Peirce's notions of Firstness and Secondness could be related to the above. The problems with these notions would be, then, a consequence of his trying to keep them separate to avoid contradictions, which he did not like. Best regards, Joseph - Original Message - *From:* Stanley N Salthe mailto:ssal...@binghamton.edu *To:* fis mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es *Sent:* Monday, August 04, 2014 4:21 PM *Subject:* Re: [Fis] information.energy Bob -- Note that I was pointing out a sense in which information implies something different from energy -- especially in the context of dialectics, which is the basis of Joseph's approach. There can be no 'precipitated' energy (matter) without some kind of form, realizing one or some constraints, but the concept of information (its history) tends to imply interaction. STAN On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 11:13 PM, Robert E. Ulanowicz u...@umces.edu mailto:u...@umces.edu wrote: Stanley N Salthe ssal...@binghamton.edu mailto:ssal...@binghamton.edu 9:32 AM (0 minutes ago) to Joseph Joseph -- Commenting on: ... Is there not also a sense that information implies more than one entity (sender-receiver, object-interpreter)? That too would tend to align with the idea of energy being primary. But Stan, you were one of the first to recognize the broader nature of information as constraint. It is also inherent in structure (Collier's enformation). Hence, wherever inhomogeneities exist, so does information -- an argument for a common origin. Bob ___ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis -- ___ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
[Fis] [Informational Bookkeeping] Jerry LR Chandler
Mensaje original Asunto: Re: [Fis] Informational Bookkeeping Fecha: Mon, 8 Sep 2014 09:51:28 -0400 De: Jerry LR Chandler jerry_lr_chand...@me.com A: Raquel del Moral rdelmoral.i...@aragon.es Raquel: The bookkeeping of cells and all other living creatures is in terms of atomic numbers. The exactness of this bookkeeping is ensured by the physical laws of the conservation of mass and the conservation of electricity. The method of bookkeeping is by the principles of relatonomics (a term coined for the purpose of bookkeeping by the electrical content of the atomic numbers.) Cheers Jerry On Sep 8, 2014, at 8:11 AM, Raquel del Moralrdelmoral.i...@aragon.es wrote: Dear Pedro, The concept of bookkeeping looks very interesting for biology, however, I can't see clearly how to apply it below the level of nervous systems. Counting maybe found in most biomolecules, but really registering in a book keeping manner is possible in the lower levels? e.g. unicellulars. Do you think that they modify their behaviour after checking their own bookkeeping registers? Just this brief comment! Best, Raquel El 05/09/2014 14:14, Pedro Marijuan escribió: Dear FIS colleagues, A very interesting comment by Bob about energy as a bookkeeping device in the other discussion track motivates these rough reflections. Actually, within the culture of mechanics (following Frank Wilczek) energy appears as the more reliable concept, beyond its cousins force and mass. Mechanics, like most scientific theories, finally is but a method to count upon variable aspects of simplified phenomena and provide inter-subjective objectivity(?). Numbers are due to our mental counting operations; and concepts, formulas and theories become bookkeeping devices to obtain more complex counting that dovetail with more complex phenomena. That our mental counting dovetails with nature's pretended counting is what the experimental side of science tries to establish. It becomes of great merit that energy constructs such as those mentioned by Bob do their bookkeeping accurately, in spite of their intrinsic limitations. My concern with the views expressed in the other track is that informational bookkeeping appears to be rather different from the mechanical physical bookkeeping or counting. There are new aspects not covered by the extensive and inflexible mechanical-dynamic counting, and which are essential to the new informational organizations we are discovering --and practicing around-- and to the new worldview that presumably we should search and promote. Is there bookkeeping in life? Do molecules count? Do bacteria or unicellulars bookkeep--and organisms? And complex brains? And individuals? And social groups? And companies and markets? And cities, regions and countries? Admittedly it is a potpourri; but yes, there are some clear instances where quite explicit a bookkeeping is maintained. It may be about signaling flows, about self production stuff flows, or about their inextricable mixing--involving whatever aspects. But these bookkeepings are made with attentional flexibility and different closure procedures that allow for new forms of compositional hierarchy (informational) not found in the mechanical. They are adaptive, they recognize, they are productively engaged in life cycles where the meaning is generated, they co-create new existential realms... In our own societies, the exaggerated importance of new informational devices (historically: numbers, alphabets, books, calculi, computers, etc.) derives from their facilitation and acceleration of all the enormous bookkeeping activities that subtend the social complexity around. Who knows, focusing on varieties of bookkeeping might be quite productive! best ---Pedro *Pedro C. Marijuán Fernández* Dirección de Investigación Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud (IACS) Instituto de Investigación Sanitaria Aragón (IIS Aragón) Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA) Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta 1 50009 Zaragoza Tfno. +34 976 71 4857 email. dirinvestigacion.i...@aragon.es mailto:dirinvestigacion.i...@aragon.es www.iacs.aragon.es ___ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis . -- - Raquel del Moral Grupo de Bioinformacion / Bioinformation Group Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud Avda. San Juan Bosco 13, 50009 Zaragoza Tfno. +34 976 71 44 76 E-mail. rdelmoral.i...@aragon.es - ___ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis . ___ Fis
Re: [Fis] Informational Bookkeeping
I have never understood the process of telomere shortening and this is a tantalizing idea. What factor might drive the evolution of a bookkeeping mechanism like telomere shortening in cells? I ask my question this way to intentionally avoid the assumption that it must represent an adaptation benefitting cell fitness. It might be an adaptation of sorts, or it might be, for example, a side effect of other cellular processes that are critical for cellular function. Cheers, Guy On Sep 9, 2014, at 12:09 AM, Pridi Siregar pridi.sire...@ibiocomputing.com wrote: Hello, One process that could be viewed as a form of bookeeping in cells is telomeric shortening subsequent to cell division. Telomeric shortening, it seems, is related to the diminishing life capital of each living cells. Just as our bank accounts diminish with spending. This could be a good example where information is somewhat seperated from energy. Indeed, the cells' internal energy do not seem to diminish with each cell division. What seems to be reduced is the potentia of each cell to live a long life. This potentia must be related to the cell's capacity to adapt to its environment which in turn could be related to the its informational content...It's just an idea. Best Pridi - Mail original - De: Raquel del Moral rdelmoral.i...@aragon.es À: fis@listas.unizar.es Envoyé: Lundi 8 Septembre 2014 14:11:48 Objet: Re: [Fis] Informational Bookkeeping Dear Pedro, The concept of bookkeeping looks very interesting for biology, however, I can't see clearly how to apply it below the level of nervous systems. Counting maybe found in most biomolecules, but really registering in a book keeping manner is possible in the lower levels? e.g. unicellulars. Do you think that they modify their behaviour after checking their own bookkeeping registers? Just this brief comment! Best, Raquel El 05/09/2014 14:14, Pedro Marijuan escribió: Dear FIS colleagues, A very interesting comment by Bob about energy as a bookkeeping device in the other discussion track motivates these rough reflections. Actually, within the culture of mechanics (following Frank Wilczek) energy appears as the more reliable concept, beyond its cousins force and mass. Mechanics, like most scientific theories, finally is but a method to count upon variable aspects of simplified phenomena and provide inter-subjective objectivity(?). Numbers are due to our mental counting operations; and concepts, formulas and theories become bookkeeping devices to obtain more complex counting that dovetail with more complex phenomena. That our mental counting dovetails with nature's pretended counting is what the experimental side of science tries to establish. It becomes of great merit that energy constructs such as those mentioned by Bob do their bookkeeping accurately, in spite of their intrinsic limitations. My concern with the views expressed in the other track is that informational bookkeeping appears to be rather different from the mechanical physical bookkeeping or counting. There are new aspects not covered by the extensive and inflexible mechanical-dynamic counting, and which are essential to the new informational organizations we are discovering --and practicing around-- and to the new worldview that presumably we should search and promote. Is there bookkeeping in life? Do molecules count? Do bacteria or unicellulars bookkeep--and organisms? And complex brains? And individuals? And social groups? And companies and markets? And cities, regions and countries? Admittedly it is a potpourri; but yes, there are some clear instances where quite explicit a bookkeeping is maintained. It may be about signaling flows, about self production stuff flows, or about their inextricable mixing--involving whatever aspects. But these bookkeepings are made with attentional flexibility and different closure procedures that allow for new forms of compositional hierarchy (informational) not found in the mechanical. They are adaptive, they recognize, they are productively engaged in life cycles where the meaning is generated, they co-create new existential realms... In our own societies, the exaggerated importance of new informational devices (historically: numbers, alphabets, books, calculi, computers, etc.) derives from their facilitation and acceleration of all the enormous bookkeeping activities that subtend the social complexity around. Who knows, focusing on varieties of bookkeeping might be quite productive! best ---Pedro *Pedro C. Marijuán Fernández* Dirección de Investigación Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud (IACS) Instituto de Investigación Sanitaria Aragón (IIS Aragón) Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA) Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta 1 50009 Zaragoza Tfno. +34 976 71
