[Fis] Fw: Toyabe 2010 [ Information converted to energy ] / Van den Broeck 2010 Thermodynamics of Information: REQUEST TO TERRENCE DEACON
Dear Folks, I do not wish to be negative, but I think this example is contaminated by a homunculus. There are so much energy coming into the system from various sources that the alleged result is not surprising. I would be glad to be wrong but the decision should be up to someone like Terry with far greater knowledge than I. Thank you, Joseph - Original Message - From: John Collier To: fis Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 8:09 AM Subject: [Fis] Toyabe 2010 [ Information converted to energy ] / Van den Broeck 2010 Thermodynamics of Information / Cartlidge 2010 Information converted to energy Stan Salthe sent the item below to Pedro and myself, but not to the list, as he had used up his posting allotment. With the permission of both of them, who think that this is an important issue, I am posting some brief comments I made back to Stan, as well as Stan’s email content, in the hope that the issue will get more discussion this time.(I posted a link to the 2010 article when it came out.) The relevant material starts below the line, and Stan’s email forwarded from Malcolm Dean is below that. It concerns the use of changed boundary conditions to move things rather than energy differences, suggesting that information can be used instead of energy to cause changes in a system (another way of looking at this is that information can be a force in itself, not merely a constraint on other actions). In particular, the final state has greater free energy than the initial state (it is in end state potential energy of the manipulated particles in an electric field), the energy arising from the manipulation of the boundary conditions based on the particle location. The original authors described this as information-to-energy conversion. I posted a different pointer to this to fis some time ago, but the reaction from the list was almost nothing, or skeptical, though the main objection was that we could understand what was going on without using the information concept. My response to that was that not using the word does not mean that the concept is not being used. Of course, if you think that information is always meaningful to some interpreter (alternatively, always a coding of something that has had meaning to some mind, or the like) then the argument in the paper is a nonstarter. I would argue that this puts unnecessary obstacles in the way of a unified approach to information, and that the issue of the interpretation of information gets obscured by presupposing information is carried only by meaningful communication. John Collier Professor Emeritus and Senior Research Associate University of KwaZulu-Natal http://web.ncf.ca/collier From: Stanley N Salthe [mailto:ssal...@binghamton.edu] Sent: Thursday, 14 January 2016 4:56 PM To: Pedro Marijuan; John Collier Subject: Fwd: Toyabe 2010 [ Information converted to energy ] / Van den Broeck 2010 Thermodynamics of Information / Cartlidge 2010 Information converted to energy -- Forwarded message -- From: Malcolm Dean Date: Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 6:13 AM Subject: Toyabe 2010 [ Information converted to energy ] / Van den Broeck 2010 Thermodynamics of Information / Cartlidge 2010 Information converted to energy To: http://www.nature.com/nphys/journal/v6/n12/full/nphys1821.html Nature Physics 6, 988–992 (2010) doi:10.1038/nphys1821 Experimental demonstration of information-to-energy conversion and validation of the generalized Jarzynski equality Shoichi Toyabe, Takahiro Sagawa, Masahito Ueda, Eiro Muneyuki & Masaki Sano In 1929, Leó Szilárd invented a feedback protocol1 in which a hypothetical intelligence—dubbed Maxwell’s demon—pumps heat from an isothermal environment and transforms it into work. After a long-lasting and intense controversy it was finally clarified that the demon’s role does not contradict the second law of thermodynamics, implying that we can, in principle, convert information to free energy2, 3, 4, 5, 6. An experimental demonstration of this information-to-energy conversion, however, has been elusive. Here we demonstrate that a non-equilibrium feedback manipulation of a Brownian particle on the basis of information about its location achieves a Szilárd-type information-to-energy conversion. Using real-time feedback control, the particle is made to climb up a spiral-staircase-like potential exerted by an electric field and gains free energy larger than the amount of work done on it. This enables us to verify the generalized Jarzynski equality7, and suggests a new fundamental principle of an ‘information-to-heat engine’ that converts information into energy by feedback control. http://www.nature.com/nphys/journal/v6/n12/full/nphys1834.html [ <--- Please send this PDF if you have access. -- M. ] Nature Physics 6, 937–
[Fis] Toyabe 2010 [ Information converted to energy ] / Van den Broeck 2010 Thermodynamics of Information / Cartlidge 2010 Information converted to energy
Stan Salthe sent the item below to Pedro and myself, but not to the list, as he had used up his posting allotment. With the permission of both of them, who think that this is an important issue, I am posting some brief comments I made back to Stan, as well as Stan’s email content, in the hope that the issue will get more discussion this time.(I posted a link to the 2010 article when it came out.) The relevant material starts below the line, and Stan’s email forwarded from Malcolm Dean is below that. It concerns the use of changed boundary conditions to move things rather than energy differences, suggesting that information can be used instead of energy to cause changes in a system (another way of looking at this is that information can be a force in itself, not merely a constraint on other actions). In particular, the final state has greater free energy than the initial state (it is in end state potential energy of the manipulated particles in an electric field), the energy arising from the manipulation of the boundary conditions based on the particle location. The original authors described this as information-to-energy conversion. I posted a different pointer to this to fis some time ago, but the reaction from the list was almost nothing, or skeptical, though the main objection was that we could understand what was going on without using the information concept. My response to that was that not using the word does not mean that the concept is not being used. Of course, if you think that information is always meaningful to some interpreter (alternatively, always a coding of something that has had meaning to some mind, or the like) then the argument in the paper is a nonstarter. I would argue that this puts unnecessary obstacles in the way of a unified approach to information, and that the issue of the interpretation of information gets obscured by presupposing information is carried only by meaningful communication. John Collier Professor Emeritus and Senior Research Associate University of KwaZulu-Natal http://web.ncf.ca/collier From: Stanley N Salthe [mailto:ssal...@binghamton.edu] Sent: Thursday, 14 January 2016 4:56 PM To: Pedro Marijuan; John Collier Subject: Fwd: Toyabe 2010 [ Information converted to energy ] / Van den Broeck 2010 Thermodynamics of Information / Cartlidge 2010 Information converted to energy -- Forwarded message -- From: Malcolm Dean mailto:malcolmd...@gmail.com>> Date: Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 6:13 AM Subject: Toyabe 2010 [ Information converted to energy ] / Van den Broeck 2010 Thermodynamics of Information / Cartlidge 2010 Information converted to energy To: http://www.nature.com/nphys/journal/v6/n12/full/nphys1821.html Nature Physics 6, 988–992 (2010) doi:10.1038/nphys1821 Experimental demonstration of information-to-energy conversion and validation of the generalized Jarzynski equality Shoichi Toyabe, Takahiro Sagawa, Masahito Ueda, Eiro Muneyuki & Masaki Sano In 1929, Leó Szilárd invented a feedback protocol1 in which a hypothetical intelligence—dubbed Maxwell’s demon—pumps heat from an isothermal environment and transforms it into work. After a long-lasting and intense controversy it was finally clarified that the demon’s role does not contradict the second law of thermodynamics, implying that we can, in principle, convert information to free energy2, 3, 4, 5, 6. An experimental demonstration of this information-to-energy conversion, however, has been elusive. Here we demonstrate that a non-equilibrium feedback manipulation of a Brownian particle on the basis of information about its location achieves a Szilárd-type information-to-energy conversion. Using real-time feedback control, the particle is made to climb up a spiral-staircase-like potential exerted by an electric field and gains free energy larger than the amount of work done on it. This enables us to verify the generalized Jarzynski equality7, and suggests a new fundamental principle of an ‘information-to-heat engine’ that converts information into energy by feedback control. http://www.nature.com/nphys/journal/v6/n12/full/nphys1834.html [ <--- Please send this PDF if you have access. -- M. ] Nature Physics 6, 937–938 (2010) doi:10.1038/nphys1834 Thermodynamics of information: Bits for less or more for bits? Christian Van den Broeck Recent advances in the formulation of the second law of thermodynamics have rekindled interest in the connections between statistical mechanics and information processing. Now a 'Brownian computer' has approached the theoretical limits set by the rejuvenated second law. Or has it? http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2010/nov/19/information-converted-to-energy Physics World, 19 November 2010 Information converted to energy Physicists in Japan have shown experimentally that a particle can be made to do work simply by receiving information, rath
[Fis] Pecking Order . . .
Hi Howard, > the pecking order, in fact, can be traced back to hierarchies within atoms 380,000 years after > the big bang and to the hierarchies within galaxies and solar systems 400 million years after > the big bang. An assertion like this requires more explanation I think . . . I am still hopefully waiting for your reply to my earlier (related) inquiry on your notion the pecking order and meme. Thanks! ___ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
[Fis] Fw: Force in the information worldview
Dear Stan, Pedro et al., I think it is correct and useful of Stan to force ((;-)) us to keep in mind questions of being and of our Being to which, today, we can bring an informational perspective. I would just also like to recall that information can be and is added in processes which evolve counter to the 2nd Law, that is, result in the emergence of more complex or higher-level entities or systems. The paradigm principle is, as I have said before, the Pauli Exclusion Principle for fermions (electrons) which enables complex systems to form using the residual uncompensated charge on their lower-level components. I particularly liked Stan's idea that change may be sought by Being, which reminds one of the wonderful aphorism of Blake: "Eternity is in love with the productions of time". The other half of the phrase is that change may be forced upon Being, but this begs the question of by what or by whom? Placing 'forced' in opposition to 'spontaneous' is a restatement of the problem of determinism and indeterminism. At our macro- (or meso-) level, I personally hold that nothing, that is, no informational change is completely spontaneous although it may have that appearance. It is not necessary to debate this point here or perhaps anywhere! What is important is that talking of such questions in informational terms insures a proper scientific or if you prefer metascientific attitude toward change in its duality and complexity. This is what I understand as part of the FIS. Best wishes, Joseph - Original Message - From: Stanley N Salthe To: fis Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2016 10:08 PM Subject: [Fis] Force in the information worldview Pedro -- Regarding: P: But a previous question may be in order: is "force" the most cogent term to rationalize the upheavals of human history? Is "force" an interesting element at all for advancing the informational worldview? S: There is Being and there is Change. Material Being changes but not completely except when, or as, it disappears. Changes can be viewed as informational. Some change is forced, some is spontaneous, but all is mediated by the information that is embodying Being. Change is inherent in Being-in-this-world because of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The cause of change can be viewed as added information. Change may be sought by, or forced upon, Being. So, force could be an interesting element regarding informational changes. STAN ___ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis ___ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
[Fis] Force in the information worldview
Pedro -- Regarding: P: But a previous question may be in order: is "force" the most cogent term to rationalize the upheavals of human history? Is "force" an interesting element at all for advancing the informational worldview? S: There is Being and there is Change. Material Being changes but not completely except when, or as, it disappears. Changes can be viewed as informational. Some change is forced, some is spontaneous, but all is mediated by the information that is embodying Being. Change is inherent in Being-in-this-world because of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The cause of change can be viewed as added information. Change may be sought by, or forced upon, Being. So, force could be an interesting element regarding informational changes. STAN ___ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
