Dear FISers,
Apart from the very interesting critique by Sungchul, there is an
intriguing comment I would like to make respect the new evolutionary
views presented. I will risk to discuss on a topic, topology, too far
from my usual fields. So I trust the benevolence of FIS readers.
As far as we have been told, the germ line cells, the gametes, contain
each one a DNA algorithmic "hemi-description" of the future
multicellular ensemble organism. When fertilization occurs, the two
different hemi-descriptions are put together in a unique, complete DNA
algorithm. Then, paying attention to the BUT (Borsuk Ulam Theorem)
insights presented in this list by Tozzi and Peters, we might interpret
that two 3D projections are fused into a 4D one. The gain in information
is evident, and it is this gain what makes possible the construction of
the multicellular ensemble. That 4D structures and dynamics are present
in the multicellular may be evidenced by the fractality of most of that
construction (systems such as circulatory, pulmonary, renal, brain,
etc.). Actually the presence of 4D dynamics in cerebral information
processing has been repeatedly highlighted by different authors. Now,
what John Torday argues, is that an essential mission of the
multicellular construct becomes the gathering of adaptive epigenetic
marks editing the 3D hemi-descriptions, so that the future ensemble may
be better adapted to its environment...
In the extent to which the above has any cogency, there emerges a new
disciplinary front to check the enigmatic continuation of the
gamete/zigote/organism along the eons of life.
Best--Pedro
El 24/01/2018 a las 15:33, JOHN TORDAY escribió:
Dear FIS colleagues, Pedro has pointed out some rookie errors in my
post. You can find my paper "From cholesterol to consciousness" at
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28830682. Hopefully you have
access to the paper without having to buy it. If you don't please
email me at jtor...@ucla.edu <mailto:jtor...@ucla.edu> and i will send
you a copy. As for addressing consciousness at the cellular/molecular
level, I understand that the mental health professionals have a
problem with consciousness beyond the brain/mind. But I consider that
anthropocentric. Just like every other aspect of our physiology,
consciousness is the endogenization of environmental factors. In the
case of consciousness it is the vertical integration of calcium fluxes
for all of the cells of the organism. All organisms are conscious of
their surroundings to one degree or another. And self-reference is, in
my opinion, a result of the Singularity/Big Bang, so it would apply to
all organisms, unicellular and multicellular alike. I refer to the
experiments of Helmut Plattner, exposing paramecia to glucose. When
the paramecium homes in on the sugar its 'nervous system' of calcium
flux lights up just like the neurons in our brains. And as to the
extrapolation from individual consciousness to cosmology based on the
homologies between Quantum Mechanics and Evolutionary Biology, I see
that as a means of fully understanding the significance of
consciousness as the connection between the animate and inanimate as
one continuous Singularity. It is only in that way that the true
nature of Nature can be fully understood. As for smaller increments,
the work of Daniel Fels on electromagnetic communication between cells
may hold the answer
(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4793142/).
Best, John
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 5:41 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan
<pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es <mailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es>> wrote:
Dear John and FIS colleagues,
It was nice hearing your response. For technical reasons of the
server, _attachments are unwelcome_ (and often directly rejected).
Send please a web address where interested people can download
your document. Also, it is better if you send directly your
response to FIS list (_*fis@listas.unizar.es
<mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es>*_). About your content, I see a
couple of problems introducing "consciousness" at the
cellular/molecular level. For this term has a very definite
meaning in the /ad hoc/ research that is taken place during last
decades. Conflating it with basic cellular processes may not be
necessary, given that other terms (more realistic ones?) are
available. For instance, I referred to self-referential cognition.
In any case, I agree that classical autopoiesis falls too short
of what is needed... Besides, about the cosmological relationship
with fundamental physics, is it a convenient step? Does it
introduce a premature closure in the bio-informational thinking
process?
Best--Pedro
El 22/01/2018 a las 16:02, JOHN TORDAY escribió:
Dear FISers, I greatly appreciate Pedro's comments regarding my
New Year Lecture. I fully agree with his comment " That life's
physiology is based on the conjunction of a few principles:
neguentropy, chemiosmosis, and homeostasis-homeorhesis" applies
to non-living states too. I did not intend to make that statement
exclusive, and if it sounded like that Pedro's clarification is
important. In fact have just published a paper entitled "Quantum
Mechanics Predicts Evolutionary Biology" which is predicated on
the hypothesis that self-referential self-organization is the
result of the Singularity/Big Bang, Newton's Third Law of
Thermodynamics that every action has an equal and opposite
reaction. That idea would apply to both evolutionary biology and
to balanced chemical reactions alike. As for the question of the
emergence of self-referential consciousness 'right at the
beginning', I am in favor of that concept, as I have expressed it
in a recent paper, entitled "From Cholesterol to Consciousness"
(see attached) so I look forward to reading your comments about
that idea as well, since it has the potential to fully integrate
physics and biology in my humble opinion.
On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 4:01 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan
<pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es <mailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es>> wrote:
Dear FISers,
Going to the extreme, I think this year opening lecture can
be summarized in three contentious points.
1. That life's physiology is based on the conjunction of a
few principles: neguentropy, chemiosmosis, and
homeostasis-homeorhesis.
2. That communication (cell signaling) is an essential factor
in the multicellular evolution towards complexity.
3. That epigenetic inheritance and the obligate recursion to
the unicellular state become the basis of a new evolutionary
theory.
I disagree with point 1, as I think some nonliving states
could also be characterized by those principles (eg, chemical
cycles/hypercycles in marine vents, and other outcomes
derived from "energy flows"); besides, some previous "info
stuff" has to be in place. Then I completely agree with point
2, for signaling is not just another characteristic of the
cell, it is "the" eukaryotic trait par excellence. And I am
curious on how point 3 could be further substantiated... In
this respect I recommend the two papers that Bill sent to the
list a few weeks ago. Do we need to postulate the emergence
of a form of "self-referential cognition" right at the beginning?
Perhaps!
All the best--Pedro
El 09/01/2018 a las 19:05, Bill escribió:
Dear Pedro and Colleagues,
I have been following the thread of comments with great
interest, all of which have all been occasioned by John
Torday's profound insights about the nature of evolutionary
development in light of the importance of cell-cell
signaling and molecular biology. From the comments, it is
clear that there is a strong impulse to seek a means of
integrating the role of symbiogenesis, viruses and mobile
elements, multilevel selection, niche construction, genomic
plasticity into a common narrative with an informational
perspective at its foundation.
In the spirit of that line of discussion, I am offering
two links that discuss evolution as an biologic information
management system. Some of this work shares direct
commonality with John's, since he and I are frequent
collaborators.
http://www.mdpi.com/2079-7737/5/2/21/htm
<http://www.mdpi.com/2079-7737/5/2/21/htm>
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S007961071730233X
<https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S007961071730233X>
Both of these articles can be considered as complementary to
Pedro's very fine article, 'How prokaryotes ‘encode’ their
environment: Systemic tools for organizing the information
flow', which is in BioSystems.
I am grateful to John for inviting me to participate in the
forum and to Pedro for encouraging me to share these
manuscripts.
Best regards,
Bill
William B. Miller, Jr., M.D.
602-463-5236 <tel:%28602%29%20463-5236>
wbmill...@cox.net <mailto:wbmill...@cox.net>
--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta 0
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno.+34 976 71 3526 <tel:+34%20976%2071%2035%2026> (& 6818)
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es <mailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es>
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
<http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/>
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-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta 0
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno.+34 976 71 3526 <tel:+34%20976%2071%2035%2026> (& 6818)
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es <mailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es>
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
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Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta 0
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
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