Re: [Fis] Tragedy in USA

[Pridi Siregar]

Dear Michel

Thank you for you thoughts and condolences. I relate to them entirely and I 
keep pondering on the nature of the human mind and spirit.

What kind of selective advantages can "natural traits" such as intolorance, 
mysticism and the exclusion of what is different can bring to the table as far 
as the "evolution" of the human specie is concerned? These traits are as 
natural as rational thought, objectivity and curiosity of what is different.

This is rather mind bogling for me and I have no clues regarding this question.

Peace to all

Pridi   


- Mail original -
De: "Michel Petitjean" 
À: "fis" 
Envoyé: Samedi 5 Décembre 2015 13:48:56
Objet: [Fis] Tragedy in USA

Dear All,

Please let me address my condolences to the families of the victims of
the killing at San Bernardino.


Here follows a list :
(partial; apologies for the forgotten items)

Afghanistan, Australia, Belgium, Cameroon, Denmark, India, Indonesia,
Irak, Egypt, France, Mali, Nigeria, Pakistan, Russia, Spain, Tchad,
Tunisia, UK, USA, ...

Anybody can be victim : young, old, man, woman, christian, muslim,
living in a pacific country or not, ...

Political problems explain few.
Most of that is due to obscurantism, conjugated to the ambition of
some gurus of sects, who do not care about the lives of the victims
and of lives of the mistaken young people serving these gurus.

No progress since the Middle Ages.
No progress since the Antiquity.

Education was efficient for sciences and techniques, but light is
still missing in our poor brains.

Sadly,

Michel.
___
Fis mailing list
Fis@listas.unizar.es
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

___
Fis mailing list
Fis@listas.unizar.es
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

Re: [Fis] Informational Bookkeeping

[Pridi Siregar]

Hello,

One process that could be viewed as a form of bookeeping in cells is 
telomeric shortening subsequent to cell division. Telomeric shortening, it 
seems, is related to the diminishing life capital of each living cells. Just 
as our bank accounts diminish with spending.

This could be a good example where information is somewhat seperated from 
energy. Indeed, the cells' internal energy do not seem to diminish with each 
cell division. What seems to be reduced is the potentia of each cell to live 
a long life. This potentia must be related to the cell's capacity to adapt to 
its environment which in turn could be related to the its informational 
content...It's just an idea.

Best

Pridi  






- Mail original -
De: Raquel del Moral rdelmoral.i...@aragon.es
À: fis@listas.unizar.es
Envoyé: Lundi 8 Septembre 2014 14:11:48
Objet: Re: [Fis] Informational Bookkeeping

Dear Pedro,

The concept of bookkeeping looks very interesting for biology, however, 
I can't see clearly how to apply it below the level of nervous systems. 
Counting maybe found in most biomolecules, but really registering in a 
book keeping manner is possible in the lower levels? e.g. unicellulars. 
Do you think that they modify their behaviour after checking their own 
bookkeeping registers?

Just this brief comment!

Best,
Raquel


El 05/09/2014 14:14, Pedro Marijuan escribió:
 Dear FIS colleagues,

 A very interesting comment by Bob about energy as a bookkeeping device
 in the other discussion track motivates these rough reflections.

 Actually, within the culture of mechanics (following Frank Wilczek)
 energy appears as the more reliable concept, beyond its cousins force
 and mass. Mechanics, like most scientific theories, finally is but a
 method to count upon variable aspects of simplified phenomena and
 provide inter-subjective objectivity(?). Numbers are due to our mental
 counting operations; and concepts, formulas and theories become
 bookkeeping devices to obtain more complex counting that dovetail with
 more complex phenomena. That our mental counting dovetails with nature's
 pretended counting is what the experimental side of science tries to
 establish. It becomes of great merit that energy constructs such as
 those mentioned by Bob do their bookkeeping accurately, in spite of
 their intrinsic limitations.

 My concern with the views expressed in the other track is that
 informational bookkeeping appears to be rather different from the
 mechanical physical bookkeeping or counting. There are new aspects not
 covered by the extensive and inflexible mechanical-dynamic counting,
 and which are essential to the new informational organizations we are
 discovering --and practicing around-- and to the new worldview that
 presumably we should search and promote. Is there bookkeeping in life?
 Do molecules count? Do bacteria or unicellulars bookkeep--and organisms?
 And complex brains? And individuals? And social groups? And companies
 and markets? And cities, regions and countries?

 Admittedly it is a potpourri; but yes, there are some clear instances
 where quite explicit a bookkeeping is maintained. It may be about
 signaling flows, about self production stuff flows, or about their
 inextricable mixing--involving whatever aspects. But these bookkeepings
 are made with attentional flexibility and different closure
 procedures that allow for new forms of compositional hierarchy
 (informational) not found in the mechanical. They are adaptive, they
 recognize, they are productively engaged in life cycles where the
 meaning is generated, they co-create new existential realms... In our
 own societies, the  exaggerated importance of new informational devices
 (historically: numbers, alphabets, books, calculi, computers, etc.)
 derives from their facilitation and acceleration of all the enormous
 bookkeeping activities that subtend the social complexity around.

 Who knows, focusing on varieties of bookkeeping might be quite 
 productive!

 best ---Pedro

 
 *Pedro C. Marijuán Fernández*
 Dirección de Investigación

 Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud (IACS)
 Instituto de Investigación Sanitaria Aragón (IIS Aragón)
 Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
 Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta 1
 50009 Zaragoza
 Tfno. +34 976 71 4857
 email. dirinvestigacion.i...@aragon.es
 mailto:dirinvestigacion.i...@aragon.es
 www.iacs.aragon.es

 ___
 Fis mailing list
 Fis@listas.unizar.es
 http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
 .



-- 
-
Raquel del Moral
Grupo de Bioinformacion / Bioinformation Group

Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Avda. San Juan Bosco 13, 50009 Zaragoza
Tfno. +34 976 71 44 76
E-mail. rdelmoral.i...@aragon.es
-

___

Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation

[Pridi Siregar]

I was thinking about particles with mass...:-)

If anyone has an idea concerning my question thanks for the reply. I'm totally 
ignorant concerning deep thoughts on the nature of information.

Pridi





- Mail original -
De: Jerry LR Chandler jerry_lr_chand...@me.com
À: Foundations of Information Science of Information Science Information 
Information Science fis@listas.unizar.es
Cc: John Collier colli...@ukzn.ac.za, Pridi Siregar 
pridi.sire...@ibiocomputing.com
Envoyé: Dimanche 20 Juillet 2014 05:12:53
Objet: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation

Pridi:

Are you mixing apples with citrus fruits?

Pure elastic collision are pre-suppose mass particles.
Electrical particles in this context do what?

Cheers

Jerry



On Jul 18, 2014, at 3:21 AM, Pridi Siregar wrote:

 Dear John and all,
 
 The limiting case of the particle collision (pure elastic collision) can be 
 represented by a dirac impulse whose spectral content ranges over all the 
 frequencies. I have a question: What does it mean to have a physical event 
 with an infinite bandwith while its information content is finite ?
 
 Best
 
 
 Pridi
 
 
 
 
 - Mail original -
 De: John Collier colli...@ukzn.ac.za
 À: fis@listas.unizar.es, Pedro C. Marijuan pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
 Envoyé: Mardi 15 Juillet 2014 07:19:50
 Objet: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation
 
 Dear fis members,
 
 I don't think that granularity per se is a 
 necessary basis for the application of 
 information theory to analog channels. In some 
 cases it might be, and I agree that studying the 
 relations between analog (continuous) and digital 
 (discrete) processes is likely to be both 
 interesting and productive. However the bandwidth 
 of an analog channel typically can be defined 
 even if there is no discreteness, for example if 
 the information bearing process consists of waves 
 so that the information bearing capacity is 
 limited by the wavelength. Virtually all physical 
 processes are cyclical in some way and thus have 
 a limited bandwidth. A countercase would be a 
 collision between particles that carries momentum 
 from one to another. I can't think offhand right 
 now (I just woke up), but I suspect that even in 
 such cases there is a finite amount of 
 information transferred. In any case, Shannon 
 discussed the bandwidth of continuous process channels. It is worth looking 
 at.
 
 John
 
 At 10:28 PM 2014-07-14, Srinandan Dasmahapatra wrote:
 I think I agree with Joseph Brenner 
 here.  Analogue computing is linked to real 
 processes, while living beings find ways of 
 transducing information out of dynamical states. 
 The graininess that information theories rely on 
 to define measures may be directly linked 
 to  physical limits in the information carriers 
 (such as photons) or they might be limitations 
 of the processing organism, extracting the 
 sufficient difference that makes a difference. 
 And yes, there's often a too hasty rush to view 
 analogue computing through pixellated perspectives.
 
 I'm not sure if this is well known to members of 
 this list, but Bill Bialek's biophysics text is 
 a profound reflection of the interplay between 
 the analogue and the digital, with selection 
 pressure forcing the sufficiency of the grainy 
 difference that makes a difference towards a 
 necessity for organisms, and hence pushing 
 sensory systems close to the physical limits of information transfer.
 Cheers,
 Sri
 
 
  Original message 
 From: Joseph Brenner
 Date:14/07/2014 18:12 (GMT+00:00)
 To: Pridi Siregar ,Pedro C. Marijuan
 Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es
 Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation
 
 Dear Colleagues,
 
 My first reaction to this suggested project is that the logic and philosophy
 of information (where I am more comfortable) would have little to
 contribute. However, analogue computation is an area in which insights from
 some complex theories of information might be useful. Analogue computation
 has always appeared to me, perhaps incorrectly, as being closer to real
 processes and therefore in principle better able to model their fuzzy,
 qualitative aspects. But in some of the articles I've seen, the authors seem
 almost apologetic at not being able to claim the 'power' of the digital
 computer . . .
 
 Best wishes,
 
 Joseph
 
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Pridi Siregar pridi.sire...@ibiocomputing.com
 To: Pedro C. Marijuan pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
 Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es
 Sent: Monday, July 14, 2014 4:35 PM
 Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna
 
 
 Thanks for the news Pedro. Sounds really exciting! As you might recall I'm
 interested in applications and I would be very keen on having a
 brainstorming session that would include pure researchers and
 application-oriented guys like me to explore technology transfer
 opportunities. I don't know if this could be part of some (possible)
 future agenda but I'm sure that business people may find it more than
 worthwile

Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna

[Pridi Siregar]

Dear Pedro

Thanks for your reply!

I would be quite happy to attend and participate in the Varna meeting on at 
least three accounts:

1. Bridges between theory and Industrial applications

2. Morphogenesis viewed from and information-theory perspective. I'm almost a 
total ignorant in this respect but i've had some quite interesting results 
concerning morphogenesis from the physical-chemical-bio point of view. What 
amazes me is that the apparent complexity of forms in the inert andliving 
spheres (assuming some distinctions can be made) can be viewed as combinations 
of simple physical principles. I was just wondering if Info Theory could shed 
some new light on the subject -beyond pure philosophical speculation. I would 
gladly make a presentation in the next Varna metting to show some interesting 
practical results on morphogeneisis + pursue the debate withing this reduced 
scope between physics and information (if it makes any sense)...

3. Bridge between the Inbiosa effort and Information Science per se. 

Let's keep this possibility open... 

Best 

Pridi
 


- Mail original -
De: Pedro C. Marijuan pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
À: fis@listas.unizar.es
Cc: Pridi Siregar pridi.sire...@ibiocomputing.com, Krassimir Markov 
mar...@foibg.com, Secretaría Bio-Med Aragón secreta...@biomedaragon.com
Envoyé: Mardi 15 Juillet 2014 12:54:48
Objet: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna

Dear Pridi and colleagues,

That was my impression too, that applications to some of these research 
directions might be easily found. Some of the presenters were really 
high level experts in fields close to the marketable: information 
engineering, biomedicine, big data, etc. In fact, a representative of a 
new association we have created in our region (Bio-Med Aragon) to 
promote research-innovation synergies attended the conference with me, 
and quite probably a few spinoffs and innovation oriented researchers of 
our region might attend the Varna session next year. A specific 
brainstorming session (or a series of) could be easily arranged. I think 
that the involvement of Plamen and Inbiosa parties you suggest, plus the 
participation of Bio-Med Aragon, and of course FIS colleagues, can open 
a new dimension to ITHEA conferences, adding the innovation strategies 
and the European Projects (H2020). Krassimir's excellent organization is 
a great support on how to realize the new venture. At least, we could 
start thinking about that.

best ---Pedro



Pridi Siregar wrote:
 Thanks for the news Pedro. Sounds really exciting! As you might recall I'm 
 interested in applications and I would be very keen on having a brainstorming 
 session that would include pure researchers and application-oriented guys 
 like me to explore technology transfer opportunities. I don't know if this 
 could be part of some (possible) future agenda but I'm sure that business 
 people may find it more than worthwile to attend such meetings! I'm sure 
 Plamen would be interested too.

 best!

 Pridi  
  


 - Mail original -
 De: Pedro C. Marijuan pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
 À: fis@listas.unizar.es
 Envoyé: Vendredi 11 Juillet 2014 14:41:42
 Objet: [Fis] FIS in Varna

 Dear FISers,

 The fis summer conference in Varna just took place 5-6 July --our 20 
 years of activities were celebrated too, FIS 20th. Rather unfortunately 
 not many people attended: half dozen from Spain related to Juan 
 Castellanos and me (from Madrid and Zaragoza); and a few parties around 
 Krassimir from Bulgaria and Ukraine. But we had a great time 
 (discussions and exchanges, banquets, beach) and the place is really 
 beautifull  prices quite affordable. The idea, quite possible to 
 realize,  is that every year that we do not have a plenary fis or isis 
 conference, we arrange a small summer school in Varna.

 Among the exchanges this year, the retinue of basic concepts around 
 information generated the most intense debate--is there any concept 
 prior to information? Joseph's contribution was also discussed by 
 Krassimir addressed to the Russian colleagues (in Russian). Computer 
 related ontologies, new schemes to handle Big Data, and brain 
 exploration through AI and EEG  by a very advanced Egyptian team were 
 quite exciting discussion topics too. For the future, we think that 
 spinoff companies could be enticed to participate, developing new 
 products and taking profit from some of those initiatives. In any case, 
 the interaction with brilliant ITHEA colleagues from Bulgaria, Russia, 
 Ukraine,  Armenia, Belarus, Egypt... is a valuable experience itself.

 And that's all!

 best wishes---Pedro

   


-- 
-
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 ( 6818)
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan

Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna

[Pridi Siregar]

Thanks for the news Pedro. Sounds really exciting! As you might recall I'm 
interested in applications and I would be very keen on having a brainstorming 
session that would include pure researchers and application-oriented guys like 
me to explore technology transfer opportunities. I don't know if this could be 
part of some (possible) future agenda but I'm sure that business people may 
find it more than worthwile to attend such meetings! I'm sure Plamen would be 
interested too.

best!

Pridi  
 


- Mail original -
De: Pedro C. Marijuan pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
À: fis@listas.unizar.es
Envoyé: Vendredi 11 Juillet 2014 14:41:42
Objet: [Fis] FIS in Varna

Dear FISers,

The fis summer conference in Varna just took place 5-6 July --our 20 
years of activities were celebrated too, FIS 20th. Rather unfortunately 
not many people attended: half dozen from Spain related to Juan 
Castellanos and me (from Madrid and Zaragoza); and a few parties around 
Krassimir from Bulgaria and Ukraine. But we had a great time 
(discussions and exchanges, banquets, beach) and the place is really 
beautifull  prices quite affordable. The idea, quite possible to 
realize,  is that every year that we do not have a plenary fis or isis 
conference, we arrange a small summer school in Varna.

Among the exchanges this year, the retinue of basic concepts around 
information generated the most intense debate--is there any concept 
prior to information? Joseph's contribution was also discussed by 
Krassimir addressed to the Russian colleagues (in Russian). Computer 
related ontologies, new schemes to handle Big Data, and brain 
exploration through AI and EEG  by a very advanced Egyptian team were 
quite exciting discussion topics too. For the future, we think that 
spinoff companies could be enticed to participate, developing new 
products and taking profit from some of those initiatives. In any case, 
the interaction with brilliant ITHEA colleagues from Bulgaria, Russia, 
Ukraine,  Armenia, Belarus, Egypt... is a valuable experience itself.

And that's all!

best wishes---Pedro

-- 
-
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 ( 6818)
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
-

___
Fis mailing list
Fis@listas.unizar.es
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

___
Fis mailing list
Fis@listas.unizar.es
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

Re: [Fis] The Key to Time. Naturalizing Matsuno

[Pridi Siregar]

Hi everyone,

I just want to add my thoughts along the line of Plamen's last comments. 

I've been following with great interest some of the exchanges between FIS 
members. Unfortunatly as a business person I do not have the time nor the 
knowledge to participate actively to such deep philosophical/scientific issues 
which are undoubtedly of great importance in order to go beyond current 
mechanistic approaches to life. However I just want to point out a few things. 
We have, in my view, different (somewhat opposit) constraints to satisfy: (1) 
Find one or more theroretical holistic frameworks that at the same time must 
support a thourough (reductionist) analysis if we do not want to remain purely 
metaphysical ; (2) define some computational/experimental schemes to verify the 
scope/contexts of the theories'  validity; (3) create value.

I'm a down-to-earth person and I'm certain that the EEC is concerned by all 
these issues -including value and wealth/job creation (sorry to speak about 
such mercantile issues). In the long run, I'm affraid that the EEC will not 
fund research that does'nt cover the three.   In short, I think that we have to 
come to a point in the futur where a computational framework will have to be 
concieved and materialized by, say, a C++ code. Hopefully this code will 
contribute to fundamental research, pharmaceutical research, health and 
education...   

Now, to finish on a more philosophical note, perhaps we should not be too 
much concerned with the perfect matching between natural language and knowledge 
in general (especially when space-time is involved).  Zeno's paradox, which I'm 
sure is known to everyone,  illustrates the case where predictions based on 
logic and purely descriptive (natural language) terms is inadequate to overcome 
certain paradoxes. We had to wait for the studies of convergent infinite series 
to predict that Achilles does indeed overrun the turtoise at some space-time 
point (as every ancient Greek could actually acknowledge without being able to 
prove it). Once the math had been worked out we could then resort back to 
natural language (as I just did)  to explain in a fuzzy way why...

The last part of my mail may miss the whole point of the recent exchanges and I 
apologize if this is the case. However, I believe that the first part needs to 
be considered. 

My best to all

Pridi  

   
  - Original Message - 
  From: Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov 
  To: Joseph Brenner 
  Cc: fis 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 8:26 AM
  Subject: Re: [Fis] The Key to Time. Naturalizing Matsuno


  Dear Joseph, Koichiro and FIS colleagues,

  I have been observing your discussion on biological time for a while now.
  May I make a suggestion with your permission.

  I think that Koichiro raised an important issue, in particular as 
contribution to our INBIOSA project (www.inbiosa.eu) 
  that deserves more elaborate attention. Therefore, I suggest to move the 
discussion from the predominant philosophical 
  realm (exchange of opinions) to the more pragmatical one. 

  In INBIOSA we are interested in initiating the development of a new theory of 
(internalist) biological time supported by both theoretical 
  insights/models and experimental evidence. So, why don't you propose specific 
examples in support of each one's argument
  (perhaps in other living systems except cyanobacteria) along with 1-2 
corollaries (extrapolations/predictions) of these arguments
  and methods to prove them by experiments. We can get closer to the truth 
within a joint project proposal (of disjoint viewpoints) 
  defined to clear up the horizon. We have provided such facilities for 
proposal submission in INBIOSA and I even have 2 specific 
  EC research programmes that can be addressed to fund this kind of research. 
What do you think? 

  I invite the ones who are interested in this to let me know.

  Thank you for your attention,

  Best wishes!

  Plamen


  ___ ___ ___

  Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov
  landline:   +49.30.38.10.11.25
  fax/ums:   +49.30.48.49.88.26.4
  mobile: +49.15.22.89.02.26.4
  email: pla...@simeio.org
  URL:  www.simeio.org




  On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 11:59 PM, Joseph Brenner joe.bren...@bluewin.ch 
wrote:

Dear Koichiro, 



I share in part Loet’s frustration in trying to understand your complex 
constructions. Please let me propose, therefore three strategies that might be 
helpful in naturalizing them, that is, converting them into concepts that fit 
the science with which we are, or can become, more familiar.



1. Generalization. 

If your approach to the time of cyanobacteria is a valid one, it should 
apply generally. I, my wife and the system I-and-my-wife must also generate 
specific times, as I think we do.



2. Relating Reality and Appearance.

In my extension of logic to complex systems, reality and appearance are 
related contradictorially: there is some reality to appearance and some 
appearance to