Dear Jerry and Colleagues,
Thank you for the interesting comments.
Yes, the physical, material concept of order is the empirical ground for
enumerations of physical chemistry.
But only on the human level, on the level of science, which is a kind of
reflection of reality.
I.e. we have quadruple where Information subject is a very complex social
system (science) and the other entities of the quadruple are complex, too.
Let remember the example – Carbon has the physical world definition of "6" –
what means this?
For the not specialists this has no meaning – they need evidence what it
reflects, at least corresponded definition.
I.e. one needs to configure the quadruple to receive any information.
Friendly regards
Krassimir
From: Jerry LR Chandler
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2014 10:34 PM
To: FIS Information Science
Cc: Krassimir Markov
Subject: Re: [Fis] Re to Pridi: infinite bandwith and finite informationcontent
- Information content of Atomic Numbers
List, Krassimir:
(I have posted Krassimir's response below, since it may not have been
distributed to the list.)
My question was not a metaphysical question about materiality, my body and
other such philosophical question of import.
Rather, it is direct question about the sufficiency of the rhetoric of the
proposal to define a theory of information.
The response saids:
"Atom has no number in the reality, it has one in any information quadruple."
The physical, material concept of order is the empirical ground for
enumerations of physical chemistry.
The concept of "atomic number" is central to elemental quantum mechanics as
well as atomic table of elements as well as molecular biology and of course,
the practice of medicine itself.
To assert that "Atom has no number in the reality" is a denial of physical
reality, is it not?
By logical extension,
if "Atom has no number in the reality", then the material world has no reality.
And:
If the material world has no reality, the proposed definition of "information"
is self-contradictory.
This suggests to me that the proposed definition may need to altered to avoid
the implication of self-contradiction.
Cheers
Jerry
Dear Jery,
Thank you for interesting remark.
Physical world means all material reality.
A special case of it are living creatures.
Your example is good for discussion – somewhere the Rutherford/Moseley
experiments had been reflected to be further analyzed, i.e. we have information
quadruple including scientists who assign atomic numbers. Atom has no number in
the reality, it has one in any information quadruple. Of course, here we have
very long chain of reflections and corresponded quadruples.
Ideal entities are reflections (information) in our brain and are so material
as we are. This is long story about information models ... including your
example ...
Friendly regards
Krassimir
On Jul 21, 2014, at 12:33 PM, Jerry LR Chandler wrote:
List, Karassimir:
I found your definition of information to be a bit confusing because the
language is a bit ambiguous to me.
While the definitions of the quadruple "make sense" from a rhetorical sense,
one notion that is missing is the concept of what is the meaning of the
central reference term: "physical world".
For example, please show how for your definition information works for the
electrical nature of the carbon atom as defined by the Rutherford/Moseley
experiments, which form the base of the atomic numbers. (Carbon has the
physical world definition of "6".) How would this information be symbolized?
In other words, how does the concept of "quantity" enter into your definition?
Cheers
Jerry
On Jul 21, 2014, at 4:40 AM, Krassimir Markov wrote:
Dear Pridi,
An accordance with my understanding:
In physical world there exist only reflections but not information.
Information “i" is the quadruple:
i = (s, r, e, I)
where
s is a source entity, which is reflected in r
r is the entity in which reflection of s exists
e is an evidence for the subject I which proofs for him and only for him
that the reflection in r reflects just s, i.e. the evidence proofs for the
subject what the reflection reflects.
I is information subject who has possibility to make decisions in
accordance with some goals – human, animal, bacteria, artificial intelligent
system, etc.
In other words, information is a reflection, but not every reflection is
information – only reflections for which the quadruple above exist are assumed
as information by the corresponded subjects.
For different I, information may be different because of subjects’ finite
memory and reflection possibilities.
Because of this, a physical event with an infinite bandwidth may have
finite information content (for concrete information subject).
Friendly regards
Krassimir
-----Original Message-----
From: Pridi Siregar
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2014 10:35 AM
To: Jerry LR Chandler
Cc: Foundations of Information Science of Information Science Information
Information Science
Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation
I was thinking about particles with mass...:-)
If anyone has an idea concerning my question thanks for the reply. I'm
totally ignorant concerning deep thoughts on the nature of information.
Pridi
----- Mail original -----
De: "Jerry LR Chandler" <jerry_lr_chand...@me.com>
À: "Foundations of Information Science of Information Science Information
Information Science" <fis@listas.unizar.es>
Cc: "John Collier" <colli...@ukzn.ac.za>, "Pridi Siregar"
<pridi.sire...@ibiocomputing.com>
Envoyé: Dimanche 20 Juillet 2014 05:12:53
Objet: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation
Pridi:
Are you mixing apples with citrus fruits?
Pure elastic collision are pre-suppose mass particles.
Electrical particles in this context do what?
Cheers
Jerry
On Jul 18, 2014, at 3:21 AM, Pridi Siregar wrote:
> Dear John and all,
>
> The limiting case of the particle collision (pure elastic collision) can
be represented by a dirac impulse whose spectral content ranges over all the
frequencies. I have a question: What does it mean to have a physical event with
an infinite bandwith while its information content is finite ?
>
> Best
>
>
> Pridi
>
>
>
>
> ----- Mail original -----
> De: "John Collier" <colli...@ukzn.ac.za>
> À: fis@listas.unizar.es, "Pedro C. Marijuan" <pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es>
> Envoyé: Mardi 15 Juillet 2014 07:19:50
> Objet: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation
>
> Dear fis members,
>
> I don't think that granularity per se is a
> necessary basis for the application of
> information theory to analog channels. In some
> cases it might be, and I agree that studying the
> relations between analog (continuous) and digital
> (discrete) processes is likely to be both
> interesting and productive. However the bandwidth
> of an analog channel typically can be defined
> even if there is no discreteness, for example if
> the information bearing process consists of waves
> so that the information bearing capacity is
> limited by the wavelength. Virtually all physical
> processes are cyclical in some way and thus have
> a limited bandwidth. A countercase would be a
> collision between particles that carries momentum
> from one to another. I can't think offhand right
> now (I just woke up), but I suspect that even in
> such cases there is a finite amount of
> information transferred. In any case, Shannon
> discussed the bandwidth of continuous process channels. It is worth
looking at.
>
> John
>
> At 10:28 PM 2014-07-14, Srinandan Dasmahapatra wrote:
>> I think I agree with Joseph Brenner
>> here. Analogue computing is linked to real
>> processes, while living beings find ways of
>> transducing information out of dynamical states.
>> The graininess that information theories rely on
>> to define measures may be directly linked
>> to physical limits in the information carriers
>> (such as photons) or they might be limitations
>> of the processing organism, extracting the
>> sufficient "difference that makes a difference".
>> And yes, there's often a too hasty rush to view
>> analogue computing through pixellated perspectives.
>>
>> I'm not sure if this is well known to members of
>> this list, but Bill Bialek's biophysics text is
>> a profound reflection of the interplay between
>> the analogue and the digital, with selection
>> pressure forcing the sufficiency of the grainy
>> "difference that makes a difference" towards a
>> necessity for organisms, and hence pushing
>> sensory systems close to the physical limits of information transfer.
>> Cheers,
>> Sri
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Joseph Brenner
>> Date:14/07/2014 18:12 (GMT+00:00)
>> To: Pridi Siregar ,"Pedro C. Marijuan"
>> Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es
>> Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation
>>
>> Dear Colleagues,
>>
>> My first reaction to this suggested project is that the logic and
philosophy
>> of information (where I am more comfortable) would have little to
>> contribute. However, analogue computation is an area in which insights
from
>> some complex theories of information might be useful. Analogue
computation
>> has always appeared to me, perhaps incorrectly, as being closer to real
>> processes and therefore in principle better able to model their fuzzy,
>> qualitative aspects. But in some of the articles I've seen, the authors
seem
>> almost apologetic at not being able to claim the 'power' of the digital
>> computer . . .
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Joseph
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Pridi Siregar" <pridi.sire...@ibiocomputing.com>
>> To: "Pedro C. Marijuan" <pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es>
>> Cc: <fis@listas.unizar.es>
>> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2014 4:35 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna
>>
>>
>>> Thanks for the news Pedro. Sounds really exciting! As you might recall
I'm
>>> interested in applications and I would be very keen on having a
>>> brainstorming session that would include pure researchers and
>>> application-oriented guys like me to explore technology transfer
>>> opportunities. I don't know if this could be part of some (possible)
>>> future agenda but I'm sure that business people may find it more than
>>> worthwile to attend such meetings! I'm sure Plamen would be interested
>>> too.
>>>
>>> best!
>>>
>>> Pridi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Mail original -----
>>> De: "Pedro C. Marijuan" <pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es>
>>> À: fis@listas.unizar.es
>>> Envoyé: Vendredi 11 Juillet 2014 14:41:42
>>> Objet: [Fis] FIS in Varna
>>>
>>> Dear FISers,
>>>
>>> The fis summer conference in Varna just took place 5-6 July --our 20
>>> years of activities were celebrated too, FIS 20th. Rather unfortunately
>>> not many people attended: half dozen from Spain related to Juan
>>> Castellanos and me (from Madrid and Zaragoza); and a few parties around
>>> Krassimir from Bulgaria and Ukraine. But we had a great time
>>> (discussions and exchanges, banquets, beach) and the place is really
>>> beautifull & prices quite affordable. The idea, quite possible to
>>> realize, is that every year that we do not have a plenary fis or isis
>>> conference, we arrange a small summer school in Varna.
>>>
>>> Among the exchanges this year, the retinue of "basic concepts" around
>>> information generated the most intense debate--is there any concept
>>> prior to information? Joseph's contribution was also discussed by
>>> Krassimir addressed to the Russian colleagues (in Russian). Computer
>>> related ontologies, new schemes to handle Big Data, and brain
>>> exploration through AI and EEG by a very advanced Egyptian team were
>>> quite exciting discussion topics too. For the future, we think that
>>> spinoff companies could be enticed to participate, developing new
>>> products and taking profit from some of those initiatives. In any case,
>>> the interaction with brilliant ITHEA colleagues from Bulgaria, Russia,
>>> Ukraine, Armenia, Belarus, Egypt... is a valuable experience itself.
>>>
>>> And that's all!
>>>
>>> best wishes---Pedro
>>>
>>> --
>>> -------------------------------------------------
>>> Pedro C. Marijuán
>>> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>>> Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
>>> Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
>>> Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
>>> 50009 Zaragoza, Spain
>>> Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)
>>> pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
>>> http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>>> -------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Fis mailing list
>>> Fis@listas.unizar.es
>>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Fis mailing list
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>>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Fis mailing list
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>
>
> ----------
> Professor John Collier
colli...@ukzn.ac.za
> Philosophy and Ethics, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Durban 4041 South
Africa
> T: +27 (31) 260 3248 / 260 2292 F: +27 (31) 260 3031
> Http://web.ncf.ca/collier
>
>
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