Re: FW: SV: [Fis] info & meaning

[Stanley N. Salthe]

Reacting to Christophe's statement:

>But I'm afraid I disagree with your point regarding first person
>consciousness as not representing anything real, >as just being a
>bio-cultural artefact as you say. I take human consciousness as being a
>reality resulting from an >evolution of representations. But this is not
>our today subject.

S: Ths was actually the subject of a past fis discussion, on 'Internalism'.
For those who may not recall it, internalism is an emerging perspective in
science (e.g. endophysics) and was preceded by viewpoints like the famous
'autopoiesis'.  Basically it is the attempt to model a system as if from
the inside, using first person, present progressive modes of description.
Cosmology ought to be internalist, but cosmologists have contrived to talk
about the universe they are viewing from within AS IF they were seeing it
from outside.

Later Christophe said:

>With this background, we can consider that a meaningful information (a
>meaning) does not exist per se but comes >from a system submitted to a
>constraint that has generated the meaning in order to satisfy the
>constraint. (stay >alive for an organism, valorize ego for a human  &). A
>meaning can be defined only when a system submitted to a >constraint is in
>relation with its environment.
 S: This invokes Peircean semiotics, which is triadic, instead of the
erstwhile dyadic discourse of science.  That is, interpretation is inserted
between input and output, and it is a 'system of interpretance' that
accomplished this, which Loet refers to in
>The expression of Bateson "A difference which makes a  difference"
>presumes that there is a system or a series of >events for which the
>differences can make a difference.

Then Søren says:
>First person meaningful consciousness is
>a bio-cultural artifact useful for the construction of life and culture, but
>it is not an image of anything real.
  S: This is interesting in regard to the above.  It is basically a
statement denying the possibility of 'pansemiosis' -- that is, that a
semiotic reworking of all of science may be a possibility, or, that all of
nature is characterized by semiosis.  I would take 'First person meaningful
consciousness' to be a highly evolved phenomenon based on a more primitive
semiosis in nature.  Thus: {vague proto-consciousness {First person
meaningful consciousness}} is showing the evolutionary relationship.

STAN







___
fis mailing list
fis@listas.unizar.es
http://webmail.unizar.es/mailman/listinfo/fis

FW: SV: [Fis] info & meaning

[Christophe Menant]

Dear Soren,  I agree with your reading of Pedro’s  proposal as to start with 
cellular meaning, and then go thru the higher levels of evolution. It has the 
advantage of beginning with the simplest case and then look at more complex 
ones. See (1) for a corresponding approach.But I’m afraid I disagree with your 
point regarding first person consciousness as not representing anything real, 
as just being a bio-cultural artefact as you say. I take human consciousness as 
being a reality resulting from an evolution of representations. But this is not 
our today subject. Coming back to it, Walter Riofrio, (New FIS member) has an 
interesting approach to the notion of meaning where he groups together the 
emergence of autonomy, function and meaning (2). I understand his work as 
associating inside a system a meaningful information with a function that needs 
it in order to use it, in a background of autonomy. Such evolutionary link 
between meaningful information and function looks as an interesting tool.  
All the best Christophe(1) - Short paper: 
http://crmenant.free.fr/ResUK/index.HTM  - Full paper: 
http://www.mdpi.org/entropy/papers/e5020193.pdf(2) 
http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00114521/en/> Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 
22:13:27 +0200> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: SV: [Fis] info & meaning> To: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]; fis@listas.unizar.es> > Dear Pedro> > Do I understand you 
right when I see your models as:> > 1. There is no meaning in inanimate 
nature.> 2. Meaning is constructed on a first level by life in the form of 
single> cell life forms.> 3. Second level is (chemical) communication between 
cells.> 4. Third level is multicellular organisms as species with a gene pool.> 
5. Fifth level is their communication.> 6. Sixth level human construction of 
meaning in 'life worlds'. > > But there is no object of meaning in itself. 
Energy and mathematical> information are the basic reality. First person 
meaningful consciousness is> a bio-cultural artifact useful for the 
construction of life and culture, but> it is not an image of anything real.> > 
Best wishes> > Søren> > > -Oprindelig meddelelse-> Fra: [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] På> vegne af Pedro Marijuan> Sendt: 4. 
oktober 2007 14:23> Til: fis@listas.unizar.es> Emne: Re: [Fis] info & meaning> 
> Dear colleagues,> > What if meaning is equivalent to "zero"?> > I mean, if we 
backtrack to the origins of zero, we find those obscure> philosophers related 
to Buddhism in India, many centuries ago (Brahmagupta,> 600 ad). It was 
something difficult to grasp, rather bizarre, the fruit of> quite a long and 
winding thought, and frankly not of much practicity. Then> after not many 
developments during a few centuries, another scholar in> central Asia 
(al-Kwarismi) took the idea and was able to algorithmize the> basic arithmetic 
operations. Mathematics could fly... and nowadays any> school children learns 
and uses arithmetics & algebra so easily.> > The idea is that if we strictly 
identify (we "zero" on) meaning as a> biological construct, work it rigorously 
for the living cell as a tough> problem of systems biology (and not as a 
flamboyant autopoiectic or> autogenic or selftranscence doctrines of 
Brahmaguptian style), then we work> for a parallel enactive action/perception 
approach in neuroscience, and> besides pen a rigorous view in social-economic 
setting under similar> guidelines --and also find the commonalities with 
quantum computing and> information physics... finally information science will 
fly.> > Otherwise, if we remain working towards the other direction, the> 
undergrounds of zero downwards, we will get confined into bizarre,> voluminous, 
useless discussions & doctrines on information. Cellular meaning> is our zero 
concept: we should go for it.> > best> > Pedro> > > > > > 
___> fis mailing list> 
fis@listas.unizar.es> http://webmail.unizar.es/mailman/listinfo/fis> > > 
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.> Checked by AVG Free Edition. > 
Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1025 - Release Date: 23-09-2007> 
13:53> > > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.> Checked by AVG Free 
Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1025 - Release Date: 
23-09-2007> 13:53> > > > ___> fis 
mailing list> fis@listas.unizar.es> 
http://webmail.unizar.es/mailman/listinfo/fis
_
Votez pour vos séries TV préférées et tentez de gagner un voyage à Hawaï !
http://messengerawards.divertissements.fr.msn.com/___
fis mailing list
fis@listas.unizar.es
http://webmail.unizar.es/mailman/listinfo/fis