Re: [flac-dev] New ID registration

[Kurosawa, Taku]

Hi Brian,

Appreciate your comment here.

about 2) and 4), I will check with our engineer and get back to you. It might 
take a bit since it is holiday season..
about 3) my explanation might have been incorrect. the data size should be as 
big as 10kByte even with future functional extension in scope.

Best regards,

Taku

> -Original Message-
> From: Brian Willoughby [mailto:bri...@audiobanshee.com]
> Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2018 5:36 AM
> To: Kurosawa, Taku 
> Cc: flac-dev@xiph.org
> Subject: Re: [flac-dev] New ID registration
> 
> A few comments:
> 
> 1) Many embedded devices that have FLAC support only handle a subset of
> the FLAC capabilities. It seems highly unlikely that an embedded device
> would have the ability to parse Vorbis file format wrappers around FLAC
> data. In other words, depending upon how broad you want the support to
> be, it might be best to make this addition to FLAC rather than Vorbis.
> 
> 2) In general, changes to FLAC are submitted as a PATCH. I do not believe
> anyone will add the new ID for you. You will need to add it yourself, without
> making any mistakes that would affect the existing FLAC functionality,
> and then submit your patch for approval. I am not certain that this is
> the correct approach, but it seems to be what I have witnessed. Discussion
> of the intended addition is wise, of course, as you have done.
> 
> 3) I am concerned that you say this Replaygain data is large, and that
> it is float. These choices seem like overkill for a format that is lossless,
> and which basically uses fixed point integers up to 24 bits in size. Can
> you explain why the data is so large?
> 
> 4) I assume that most FLAC players will ignore this App ID addition. In
> other words, I assume that only your custom player will be able to apply
> Replaygain. As a FLAC user, I would want to know that you’ve tested existing
> FLAC software and firmware to be sure that adding this App ID will not
> cause problems with existing players, especially embedded devices (e.g.
> Sound Devices, OPPO, etc.). Will Sony be performing any such tests?
> 
> Brian Willoughby
> 
> 
> On Dec 11, 2018, at 3:05 AM, Kurosawa, Taku 
> wrote:
> > Hi Martjn, and everyone,
> >
> > Apologies if I have missed the reply, but I think I have not got any
> comment so far on this. That means our new ID request is accepted? What
> should I do next to proceed??  Apparently this is my first time here, so
> appreciate any advice assistance.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Taku
> >
> > From: Kurosawa, Taku
> > Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2018 8:41 PM
> > To: Martijn van Beurden
> > Cc: flac-dev@xiph.org
> >
> > Hi Martijn,
> >
> > Sorry for the late reply again,
> > The application we are preparing this time is not exactly similar to
> Replaygain.
> >
> > Replaygain as we understand is something which normalize the loudness
> at content provider side, but our application takes different approach.
> It is designed to normalize the loudness at player side, according to the
> metadata embedded within the content, which could be relatively big in
> its size, so it will be unfit for Vorbis comment. Besides that, its concept,
> format are incompatible with Replaygain, and we are putting effort to add
> additional features to that in the future, which makes metadata size even
> bigger.
> > The Player compatible with will only be the one we are developing, for
> now.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Taku
> >
> > From: Martijn van Beurden
> > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 8:03 PM
> > To: Kurosawa, Taku
> > Cc: flac-dev@xiph.org
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm sorry, but that link doesn't seem to include anything specific about
> the metadata itself. The reason I'm asking is because, for player
> compatibility, it is probably much easier to use a vorbiscomment to store
> metadata. Replaygain normalisation uses Vorbiscomment too. Most FLAC
> players already read vorbiscomment, so for implementing plugins, this is
> probably much easier.
> >
> > Kind regards, Martijn van Beurden
> >
> > Op wo 14 nov. 2018 om 07:56 schreef Kurosawa, Taku
> :
> >> Hi, Martijn,
> >>
> >> Thank you for reaching out, and apologies for late reply It is a
> >> dedicated metadata for volume normalization on our player.
> >> Please kindly refer to our company information here:
> >> https://labelgate.com/
> >>
> >> application ID: SONN
> >> application name: Sony Normalizer
> >> contact e-mail address: taku.kuros...@labelgate.com
> >>
> >> Taku
> >>

Re: [flac-dev] New ID registration

[Brian Willoughby]

A few comments:

1) Many embedded devices that have FLAC support only handle a subset of the 
FLAC capabilities. It seems highly unlikely that an embedded device would have 
the ability to parse Vorbis file format wrappers around FLAC data. In other 
words, depending upon how broad you want the support to be, it might be best to 
make this addition to FLAC rather than Vorbis.

2) In general, changes to FLAC are submitted as a PATCH. I do not believe 
anyone will add the new ID for you. You will need to add it yourself, without 
making any mistakes that would affect the existing FLAC functionality, and then 
submit your patch for approval. I am not certain that this is the correct 
approach, but it seems to be what I have witnessed. Discussion of the intended 
addition is wise, of course, as you have done.

3) I am concerned that you say this Replaygain data is large, and that it is 
float. These choices seem like overkill for a format that is lossless, and 
which basically uses fixed point integers up to 24 bits in size. Can you 
explain why the data is so large?

4) I assume that most FLAC players will ignore this App ID addition. In other 
words, I assume that only your custom player will be able to apply Replaygain. 
As a FLAC user, I would want to know that you’ve tested existing FLAC software 
and firmware to be sure that adding this App ID will not cause problems with 
existing players, especially embedded devices (e.g. Sound Devices, OPPO, etc.). 
Will Sony be performing any such tests?

Brian Willoughby


On Dec 11, 2018, at 3:05 AM, Kurosawa, Taku  wrote:
> Hi Martjn, and everyone,
>  
> Apologies if I have missed the reply, but I think I have not got any comment 
> so far on this. That means our new ID request is accepted? What should I do 
> next to proceed??  Apparently this is my first time here, so appreciate any 
> advice assistance.
>  
> Best regards,
>  
> Taku
>  
> From: Kurosawa, Taku 
> Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2018 8:41 PM
> To: Martijn van Beurden
> Cc: flac-dev@xiph.org
>  
> Hi Martijn,
>  
> Sorry for the late reply again,
> The application we are preparing this time is not exactly similar to 
> Replaygain.
>  
> Replaygain as we understand is something which normalize the loudness at 
> content provider side, but our application takes different approach. It is 
> designed to normalize the loudness at player side, according to the metadata 
> embedded within the content, which could be relatively big in its size, so it 
> will be unfit for Vorbis comment. Besides that, its concept, format are 
> incompatible with Replaygain, and we are putting effort to add additional 
> features to that in the future, which makes metadata size even bigger.
> The Player compatible with will only be the one we are developing, for now.
>  
> Best regards,
>  
> Taku
>  
> From: Martijn van Beurden 
> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 8:03 PM
> To: Kurosawa, Taku
> Cc: flac-dev@xiph.org
>  
> Hi,
>  
> I'm sorry, but that link doesn't seem to include anything specific about the 
> metadata itself. The reason I'm asking is because, for player compatibility, 
> it is probably much easier to use a vorbiscomment to store metadata. 
> Replaygain normalisation uses Vorbiscomment too. Most FLAC players already 
> read vorbiscomment, so for implementing plugins, this is probably much easier.
>  
> Kind regards, Martijn van Beurden
>  
> Op wo 14 nov. 2018 om 07:56 schreef Kurosawa, Taku 
> :
>> Hi, Martijn,
>>  
>> Thank you for reaching out, and apologies for late reply
>> It is a dedicated metadata for volume normalization on our player.
>> Please kindly refer to our company information here: https://labelgate.com/
>>  
>> application ID: SONN
>> application name: Sony Normalizer
>> contact e-mail address: taku.kuros...@labelgate.com
>>  
>> Taku
>>  
>> From: Martijn van Beurden
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 7, 2018 3:19 PM
>> To: flac-dev@xiph.org
>>  
>> Hi,
>> 
>> Could you please describe your application? While it is possible to use FLAC 
>> Application metadata blocks, it isn't common practice.
>> 
>> Kind regards, Martijn van Beurden
>> 
>> Op 07-11-18 om 03:14 schreef Kurosawa, Taku:
>>> To whom it may concern,
>>>  
>>> Hi, I would like to register a new ID hrere,
>>>  
>>> application ID: SONN
>>> application name: Sony Normalizer
>>> contact e-mail address: taku.kuros...@labelgate.com
>>>  
>>> please advise what the next step would be.
>>>  
>>> Best regards,
>>>  
>>> Taku Kurosawa
>> 
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Re: [flac-dev] New ID registration

[Kurosawa, Taku]

Hi Martin,

Apologies my reply being late again.
There might have been some mis-explanation from my side, so let me explain the 
difference between Replaygain and our approach here.

- Replaygain
  The Gain calculation for the loudness normalization be done at content 
provide side.
  The result will be embedded within the content as metadata.
  The Normalization will be done at player side, according to the gain embedded 
within the content.

- Our approach
  Embed the binary data which reflect the character of the music within the 
content at content provider side.
  The gain calculation for the loudness normalization will be done at player 
side according to the binary data embedded within the content.
  The binary data could be used not only for the loudness normalization, but 
also for something else in the future.

Our approach uses float format binary data block, which could be encoded to 
text based metadata, but the process will be too complicated. It is not 
realistic from technical point of view.
Also, since the Key_Name of Vorbis Comment is not unique based operated, if 
other user uses same Key_Name as ours, that could result in in correct action 
and that could ultimately lead us to suffer multiple losses in the service.

Hope I am explaining correctly the necessity of new ID registration here.

Taku

> -Original Message-
> From: flac-dev [mailto:flac-dev-boun...@xiph.org] On Behalf Of Martin
> Leese
> Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 4:20 AM
> To: flac-dev@xiph.org
> Subject: Re: [flac-dev] New ID registration
> 
> On 12/11/18, Martin Leese  wrote:
> 
> > A VorbisComment can store upto 2^64 bytes
> > (16 exabytes).  A FLAC metadata block is limited to 2^24 bytes (16
> > megabytes).
> > Therefore, a VorbisComment can be orders of magnitude bigger than a
> > FLAC metadata block.
> > Visit:
> > https://wiki.xiph.org/Metadata
> 
> Rereading my post, I implied that a
> VorbisComment inside a FLAC stream could be larger than a FLAC metadata
> block.  As the former must fit inside the latter (when inside a FLAC
> stream), the limit for both is the smaller of the two.
> 
> > The advice to use a VorbisComment still looks good.
> 
> This still looks good.
> 
> Regards,
> Martin
> --
> Martin J Leese
> E-mail: martin.leese  stanfordalumni.org
> Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/
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Re: [flac-dev] New ID registration

[Martin Leese]

On 12/11/18, Martin Leese  wrote:

> A VorbisComment can store upto 2^64 bytes
> (16 exabytes).  A FLAC metadata block is
> limited to 2^24 bytes (16 megabytes).
> Therefore, a VorbisComment can be orders of
> magnitude bigger than a FLAC metadata block.
> Visit:
> https://wiki.xiph.org/Metadata

Rereading my post, I implied that a
VorbisComment inside a FLAC stream could
be larger than a FLAC metadata block.  As the
former must fit inside the latter (when inside a
FLAC stream), the limit for both is the smaller
of the two.

> The advice to use a VorbisComment still looks
> good.

This still looks good.

Regards,
Martin
-- 
Martin J Leese
E-mail: martin.leese  stanfordalumni.org
Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/
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Re: [flac-dev] New ID registration

[Martin Leese]

"Kurosawa, Taku" wrote:
> Hi Martijn,
>
> Sorry for the late reply again,
> The application we are preparing this time is not exactly similar to
> Replaygain.
>
> Replaygain as we understand is something which normalize the loudness at
> content provider side, but our application takes different approach. It is
> designed to normalize the loudness at player side, according to the metadata
> embedded within the content, which could be relatively big in its size, so
> it will be unfit for Vorbis comment.

A VorbisComment can store upto 2^64 bytes
(16 exabytes).  A FLAC metadata block is
limited to 2^24 bytes (16 megabytes).
Therefore, a VorbisComment can be orders of
magnitude bigger than a FLAC metadata block.
Visit:
https://wiki.xiph.org/Metadata

The advice to use a VorbisComment still looks
good.

Regards,
Martin
-- 
Martin J Leese
E-mail: martin.leese  stanfordalumni.org
Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/
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Re: [flac-dev] New ID registration

[Kurosawa, Taku]

Hi Martjn, and everyone,

Apologies if I have missed the reply, but I think I have not got any comment so 
far on this. That means our new ID request is accepted? What should I do next 
to proceed??  Apparently this is my first time here, so appreciate any advice 
assistance.

Best regards,

Taku

From: Kurosawa, Taku
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2018 8:41 PM
To: 'Martijn van Beurden' 
Cc: flac-dev@xiph.org
Subject: RE: [flac-dev] New ID registration

Hi Martijn,

Sorry for the late reply again,
The application we are preparing this time is not exactly similar to Replaygain.

Replaygain as we understand is something which normalize the loudness at 
content provider side, but our application takes different approach. It is 
designed to normalize the loudness at player side, according to the metadata 
embedded within the content, which could be relatively big in its size, so it 
will be unfit for Vorbis comment. Besides that, its concept, format are 
incompatible with Replaygain, and we are putting effort to add additional 
features to that in the future, which makes metadata size even bigger.
The Player compatible with will only be the one we are developing, for now.

Best regards,

Taku

From: Martijn van Beurden [mailto:mva...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 8:03 PM
To: Kurosawa, Taku 
mailto:taku.kuros...@labelgate.com>>
Cc: flac-dev@xiph.org<mailto:flac-dev@xiph.org>
Subject: Re: [flac-dev] New ID registration

Hi,

I'm sorry, but that link doesn't seem to include anything specific about the 
metadata itself. The reason I'm asking is because, for player compatibility, it 
is probably much easier to use a vorbiscomment to store metadata. Replaygain 
normalisation uses Vorbiscomment too. Most FLAC players already read 
vorbiscomment, so for implementing plugins, this is probably much easier.

Kind regards, Martijn van Beurden

Op wo 14 nov. 2018 om 07:56 schreef Kurosawa, Taku 
mailto:taku.kuros...@labelgate.com>>:
Hi, Martijn,

Thank you for reaching out, and apologies for late reply
It is a dedicated metadata for volume normalization on our player.
Please kindly refer to our company information here: https://labelgate.com/

application ID: SONN
application name: Sony Normalizer
contact e-mail address: 
taku.kuros...@labelgate.com<mailto:taku.kuros...@labelgate.com>

Taku

From: flac-dev 
[mailto:flac-dev-boun...@xiph.org<mailto:flac-dev-boun...@xiph.org>] On Behalf 
Of Martijn van Beurden
Sent: Wednesday, November 7, 2018 3:19 PM
To: flac-dev@xiph.org<mailto:flac-dev@xiph.org>
Subject: Re: [flac-dev] New ID registration


Hi,

Could you please describe your application? While it is possible to use FLAC 
Application metadata blocks, it isn't common practice.

Kind regards, Martijn van Beurden
Op 07-11-18 om 03:14 schreef Kurosawa, Taku:
To whom it may concern,

Hi, I would like to register a new ID hrere,

application ID: SONN
application name: Sony Normalizer
contact e-mail address: 
taku.kuros...@labelgate.com<mailto:taku.kuros...@labelgate.com>

please advise what the next step would be.

Best regards,

Taku Kurosawa



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Re: [flac-dev] New ID registration

[Kurosawa, Taku]

Hi Martijn,

Sorry for the late reply again,
The application we are preparing this time is not exactly similar to Replaygain.

Replaygain as we understand is something which normalize the loudness at 
content provider side, but our application takes different approach. It is 
designed to normalize the loudness at player side, according to the metadata 
embedded within the content, which could be relatively big in its size, so it 
will be unfit for Vorbis comment. Besides that, its concept, format are 
incompatible with Replaygain, and we are putting effort to add additional 
features to that in the future, which makes metadata size even bigger.
The Player compatible with will only be the one we are developing, for now.

Best regards,

Taku

From: Martijn van Beurden [mailto:mva...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 8:03 PM
To: Kurosawa, Taku 
Cc: flac-dev@xiph.org
Subject: Re: [flac-dev] New ID registration

Hi,

I'm sorry, but that link doesn't seem to include anything specific about the 
metadata itself. The reason I'm asking is because, for player compatibility, it 
is probably much easier to use a vorbiscomment to store metadata. Replaygain 
normalisation uses Vorbiscomment too. Most FLAC players already read 
vorbiscomment, so for implementing plugins, this is probably much easier.

Kind regards, Martijn van Beurden

Op wo 14 nov. 2018 om 07:56 schreef Kurosawa, Taku 
mailto:taku.kuros...@labelgate.com>>:
Hi, Martijn,

Thank you for reaching out, and apologies for late reply
It is a dedicated metadata for volume normalization on our player.
Please kindly refer to our company information here: https://labelgate.com/

application ID: SONN
application name: Sony Normalizer
contact e-mail address: 
taku.kuros...@labelgate.com<mailto:taku.kuros...@labelgate.com>

Taku

From: flac-dev 
[mailto:flac-dev-boun...@xiph.org<mailto:flac-dev-boun...@xiph.org>] On Behalf 
Of Martijn van Beurden
Sent: Wednesday, November 7, 2018 3:19 PM
To: flac-dev@xiph.org<mailto:flac-dev@xiph.org>
Subject: Re: [flac-dev] New ID registration


Hi,

Could you please describe your application? While it is possible to use FLAC 
Application metadata blocks, it isn't common practice.

Kind regards, Martijn van Beurden
Op 07-11-18 om 03:14 schreef Kurosawa, Taku:
To whom it may concern,

Hi, I would like to register a new ID hrere,

application ID: SONN
application name: Sony Normalizer
contact e-mail address: 
taku.kuros...@labelgate.com<mailto:taku.kuros...@labelgate.com>

please advise what the next step would be.

Best regards,

Taku Kurosawa



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Re: [flac-dev] New ID registration

[Martijn van Beurden]

Hi,

I'm sorry, but that link doesn't seem to include anything specific about
the metadata itself. The reason I'm asking is because, for player
compatibility, it is probably much easier to use a vorbiscomment to store
metadata. Replaygain normalisation uses Vorbiscomment too. Most FLAC
players already read vorbiscomment, so for implementing plugins, this is
probably much easier.

Kind regards, Martijn van Beurden

Op wo 14 nov. 2018 om 07:56 schreef Kurosawa, Taku <
taku.kuros...@labelgate.com>:

> Hi, Martijn,
>
>
>
> Thank you for reaching out, and apologies for late reply
>
> It is a dedicated metadata for volume normalization on our player.
>
> Please kindly refer to our company information here:
> https://labelgate.com/
>
>
>
> application ID: SONN
>
> application name: Sony Normalizer
>
> contact e-mail address: taku.kuros...@labelgate.com
>
>
>
> Taku
>
>
>
> *From:* flac-dev [mailto:flac-dev-boun...@xiph.org] *On Behalf Of *Martijn
> van Beurden
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 7, 2018 3:19 PM
> *To:* flac-dev@xiph.org
> *Subject:* Re: [flac-dev] New ID registration
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> Could you please describe your application? While it is possible to use
> FLAC Application metadata blocks, it isn't common practice.
>
> Kind regards, Martijn van Beurden
>
> Op 07-11-18 om 03:14 schreef Kurosawa, Taku:
>
> To whom it may concern,
>
>
>
> Hi, I would like to register a new ID hrere,
>
>
>
> application ID: SONN
>
> application name: Sony Normalizer
>
> contact e-mail address: taku.kuros...@labelgate.com
>
>
>
> please advise what the next step would be.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
>
>
> Taku Kurosawa
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
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>
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>
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Re: [flac-dev] New ID registration

[Kurosawa, Taku]

Hi, Martijn,

Thank you for reaching out, and apologies for late reply
It is a dedicated metadata for volume normalization on our player.
Please kindly refer to our company information here: https://labelgate.com/

application ID: SONN
application name: Sony Normalizer
contact e-mail address: 
taku.kuros...@labelgate.com<mailto:taku.kuros...@labelgate.com>

Taku

From: flac-dev [mailto:flac-dev-boun...@xiph.org] On Behalf Of Martijn van 
Beurden
Sent: Wednesday, November 7, 2018 3:19 PM
To: flac-dev@xiph.org
Subject: Re: [flac-dev] New ID registration


Hi,

Could you please describe your application? While it is possible to use FLAC 
Application metadata blocks, it isn't common practice.

Kind regards, Martijn van Beurden
Op 07-11-18 om 03:14 schreef Kurosawa, Taku:
To whom it may concern,

Hi, I would like to register a new ID hrere,

application ID: SONN
application name: Sony Normalizer
contact e-mail address: 
taku.kuros...@labelgate.com<mailto:taku.kuros...@labelgate.com>

please advise what the next step would be.

Best regards,

Taku Kurosawa




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Re: [flac-dev] New ID registration

[Martijn van Beurden]

Hi,

Could you please describe your application? While it is possible to use 
FLAC Application metadata blocks, it isn't common practice.


Kind regards, Martijn van Beurden

Op 07-11-18 om 03:14 schreef Kurosawa, Taku:


To whom it may concern,

Hi, I would like to register a new ID hrere,

application ID: SONN

application name: Sony Normalizer

contact e-mail address: taku.kuros...@labelgate.com 



please advise what the next step would be.

Best regards,

Taku Kurosawa


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[flac-dev] New ID registration

[Kurosawa, Taku]

To whom it may concern,

Hi, I would like to register a new ID hrere,

application ID: SONN
application name: Sony Normalizer
contact e-mail address: 
taku.kuros...@labelgate.com

please advise what the next step would be.

Best regards,

Taku Kurosawa

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