Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re: [Flightgear-users] RE: Turbine Engine (Concorde, Hunter, and Citation Information Needed)
On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 20:33:09 +0200, Christian wrote in message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > AFAIK Porsche were the only ones that have build an extra electrical > motor to turn the turbo after shut down. As car turbos get turned only .."turn the turbo"??? You mean "pump lube oil thru it till it's as cool as the engine"? > by aerodynamic forces it is much more difficult to add an extra motor > than with gas turbines or jet engines (that allways need an gear box > to get started - execpt perhaps the model engines) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re: [Flightgear-users] RE: Turbine Engine (Concorde, Hunter, and Citation Information Needed)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Georg Vollnhals schrieb: > Curt, > well argued - our real-world pilots handle these engine startup and > shutdown procedures very seriously in helicopters without FADEC, ie. > Eurocopter BO105, BK117. Getting the temperatures too high (hot start, > ITT++) is a financial desaster. And what not might be generally known - > the engines are even cooled by airflow after shutdown for a short time > with the electric starter. This is something people with (nowadays so common) turbos in their cars should remember (although most don't know it): You should idle the engine a bit before stoping it, so the turbine has some time to cool down. (The most common problem: stoping at a petrol station after going for some time at full throttle). AFAIK Porsche were the only ones that have build an extra electrical motor to turn the turbo after shut down. As car turbos get turned only by aerodynamic forces it is much more difficult to add an extra motor than with gas turbines or jet engines (that allways need an gear box to get started - execpt perhaps the model engines) CU, Christian -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (MingW32) iD8DBQFDHeDllhWtxOxWNFcRApTbAJsFFRBXUU9G3BvSTHuz0+BBiNb7+QCgkLyh xiMR6GhaeSzVF0X+sMueXno= =2J3g -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re: [Flightgear-users] RE: Turbine Engine (Concorde, Hunter, and Citation Information Needed)
Georg Vollnhals wrote: > Curtis L. Olson wrote: > > There are people in the world that are actually looking at > > FlightGear for building training simulators (certified and not > > certified) and these people are actually quite interested in the > > nit-picky details of engine operation. > > well argued - our real-world pilots handle these engine startup and > shutdown procedures very seriously in helicopters without FADEC, ie. > Eurocopter BO105, BK117. Getting the temperatures too high (hot start, > ITT++) is a financial desaster. And what not might be generally known > - the engines are even cooled by airflow after shutdown for a short > time with the electric starter. Heh, fair enough. OK, how about this: if someone can get me reasonable data on a real turbine, I'll do a model for it and check it in such that other engines can use the same interface, even if the numbers are wrong. It doesn't need to be really involved. Basically, what I'd need is stuff like: + What the RPM curve vs. time looks like the as you hold the starter button down. + The temperature curve vs. time, showing the points where control inputs were made. + The handbook procedures that tell me which numbers are important, and which ones I can fake. + The handbook descriptions of what the failure modes are, how they are caused, and (roughly) what the effects are. I don't think anyone cares if we get this exactly right -- it doesn't matter whether the over-temp condition is exactly the same temperature as you would see on a real engine, so long as the temperature is pointing at the red area of the gauge. Maybe just a video of the panel during a successful startup would be sufficient. Andy ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-devel] Re: [Flightgear-users] RE: Turbine Engine (Concorde, Hunter, and Citation Information Needed)
Curt, well argued - our real-world pilots handle these engine startup and shutdown procedures very seriously in helicopters without FADEC, ie. Eurocopter BO105, BK117. Getting the temperatures too high (hot start, ITT++) is a financial desaster. And what not might be generally known - the engines are even cooled by airflow after shutdown for a short time with the electric starter. And combined with that you have to check other important things, ie. batterie-power (if you have not got an external energy supply) for sufficient electric starter function when running the free turbine part up to get enough airflow *before* ignition, otherwise .. :-( Although all these things are no problem with modern turbines with FADEC (ie Eurocopter EC135) it might be a good idea to have these features implemented (together with a random failure generating system) in some future version of FlightGear, all these "little" things increase "reality feeling". Regards Georg ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re: [Flightgear-users] RE: Turbine Engine (Concorde, Hunter and Citation Information Needed)
On Saturday 03 September 2005 11:47, Andy Ross wrote: > Vivian Meazza wrote: > > YASim has not yet implemented shut down/start up controls for > > gas turbines. Therefore there are none for the Hawker Hunter. > > As far as I can see, there is no generic implementation possible > for turbine startup and shutdown. Everything would have to be > done specifically for each engine type. Maybe the best thing to > do would be to expose some appropriate inputs to the engine > code (running or not, current RPM, station temperatures, etc...) > and implement the details per-engine in Nasal... For the most part, starting a jet engine is a no-fuss, no-muss proposition. You turn on the power, push the start button, and bring the throttle to the Idle Stop when it shows some small value of RPM. The fuel control takes care of the rest. That's pretty much the case for anything but the first Me 262s/Meteors/YP-80s. Occasionally you might have a fuel booster pump, or separate switch for the ignitors, but that's about it. Unless you want to be logging Hot Starts and Wet Starts, there's nothing horribly inaccurate about just pushing the button or advancing the throttle, and a few seconds later it's idling at 10% thrust. (Somewhere around 35-40% RPM) -- Pete Stickney ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re: [Flightgear-users] RE: Turbine Engine (Concorde, Hunter and Citation Information Needed)
On Saturday 03 Sep 2005 19:02, Dave Martin wrote: > On Saturday 03 September 2005 17:43, Vivian Meazza wrote: > the deal? :) > > > No idea. I suppose flameouts and relights could enliven a > > dull "mission". Then we could do compressor surge, and bird > > strikes ... nah, forget it :-) > > > > Vivian > > Would it be a first if FlightGear implemented a real-time AI > flocking bird hazard? ;) > > Dave Martin Anyone got any bird 3-views? ;) LeeE ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re: [Flightgear-users] RE: Turbine Engine (Concorde, Hunter and Citation Information Needed)
On Saturday 03 September 2005 17:43, Vivian Meazza wrote: the deal? :) > > No idea. I suppose flameouts and relights could enliven a dull "mission". > Then we could do compressor surge, and bird strikes ... nah, forget it :-) > > Vivian Would it be a first if FlightGear implemented a real-time AI flocking bird hazard? ;) Dave Martin ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Re: [Flightgear-users] RE: Turbine Engine (Concorde, Hunter and Citation Information Needed)
Andy Ross > Vivian Meazza wrote: > > YASim has not yet implemented shut down/start up controls for > > gas turbines. Therefore there are none for the Hawker Hunter. > > As far as I can see, there is no generic implementation possible > for turbine startup and shutdown. Everything would have to be > done specifically for each engine type. Maybe the best thing to > do would be to expose some appropriate inputs to the engine > code (running or not, current RPM, station temperatures, etc...) > and implement the details per-engine in Nasal... > > I'm wholely open to suggestions. > > FWIW: why do people care about this stuff so much? Engine > startup and shutdown is a boring, algorithmic, checklist task. > It's not exactly what I'd call fun, and it certainly won't ever > be implemented at a fidelity level useful for flight training. > What's the deal? :) No idea. I suppose flameouts and relights could enliven a dull "mission". Then we could do compressor surge, and bird strikes ... nah, forget it :-) Vivian ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-devel] Re: [Flightgear-users] RE: Turbine Engine (Concorde, Hunter and Citation Information Needed)
Vivian Meazza wrote: > YASim has not yet implemented shut down/start up controls for > gas turbines. Therefore there are none for the Hawker Hunter. As far as I can see, there is no generic implementation possible for turbine startup and shutdown. Everything would have to be done specifically for each engine type. Maybe the best thing to do would be to expose some appropriate inputs to the engine code (running or not, current RPM, station temperatures, etc...) and implement the details per-engine in Nasal... I'm wholely open to suggestions. FWIW: why do people care about this stuff so much? Engine startup and shutdown is a boring, algorithmic, checklist task. It's not exactly what I'd call fun, and it certainly won't ever be implemented at a fidelity level useful for flight training. What's the deal? :) Andy ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
