[Flightgear-devel] Material animation problems with osg
I'm having problems with material animations under the osg version of flightgear. Melchior has confirmed that it's working for him with the plib version, and that the config is correct. It's an extremely somple model that consists of 2 buttons that turn a light on and off, so the xml looks like this: PropertyList pathELT.ac/path animation typepick/type visibletrue/visible object-nameEnable/object-name action button0/button repeatablefalse/repeatable binding commandproperty-assign/command property/instrumentation/elt/enabled/property value type=booltrue/value /binding /action /animation animation typepick/type visibletrue/visible object-nameReset/object-name action button0/button repeatablefalse/repeatable binding commandproperty-assign/command property/instrumentation/elt/enabled/property value type=boolfalse/value /binding /action /animation animation typematerial/type object-nameLED/object-name emission red1/red green0/green blue0/blue factor-prop/instrumentation/elt/enabled/factor-prop /emission /animation /PropertyList Clicking the Enable and Reset objects results in the relevant node being toggled in the property tree, but the LED object is never illuminated. Anyone got a fix, or a workaround? Jon - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Material animation problems with osg
On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 15:53:14 +0100 Jon Stockill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm having problems with material animations under the osg version of flightgear. Melchior has confirmed that it's working for him with the plib version, and that the config is correct. It's an extremely somple model that consists of 2 buttons that turn a light on and off, so the xml looks like this: PropertyList pathELT.ac/path animation typepick/type visibletrue/visible object-nameEnable/object-name action button0/button repeatablefalse/repeatable binding commandproperty-assign/command property/instrumentation/elt/enabled/property value type=booltrue/value /binding /action /animation animation typepick/type visibletrue/visible object-nameReset/object-name action button0/button repeatablefalse/repeatable binding commandproperty-assign/command property/instrumentation/elt/enabled/property value type=boolfalse/value /binding /action /animation animation typematerial/type object-nameLED/object-name emission red1/red green0/green blue0/blue factor-prop/instrumentation/elt/enabled/factor-prop /emission /animation /PropertyList Clicking the Enable and Reset objects results in the relevant node being toggled in the property tree, but the LED object is never illuminated. Anyone got a fix, or a workaround? Jon I havent tested this one but Ive found that I have to put the material animation first before any others for it to work -- SydSandy [EMAIL PROTECTED] - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] FG OSG build error
After successful update of OSG SimGear my attempt to build FG (OSG) gave this: === . . . make[2]: Entering directory `/home/lvanek/FlightGear-0.9/source/src/Aircraft' g++ -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I../../src/Include -I../.. -I../../src -I/usr/local/include -g -O2 -D_REENTRANT -MT aircraft.o -MD -MP -MF .deps/aircraft.Tpo -c -o aircraft.o aircraft.cxx In file included from ../../src/Instrumentation/dclgps.hxx:35, from ../../src/Cockpit/panel.hxx:55, from aircraft.cxx:41: ../../src/Navaids/navrecord.hxx:35:46: error: simgear/structure/ssgSharedPtr.hxx: No such file or directory make[2]: *** [aircraft.o] Error 1 make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/lvanek/FlightGear-0.9/source/src/Aircraft' make[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1 make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/lvanek/FlightGear-0.9/source/src' make: *** [all-recursive] Error 1 = thoughts? - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Material animation problems with osg
SydSandy wrote: I havent tested this one but Ive found that I have to put the material animation first before any others for it to work It appears to be a bug in the osg version - changing bool to int and true/false to 1/0 makes everything work. Is plib doing a type conversion that osg isnt? Jon - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FG OSG build error
On 10/20/07, Laurence Vanek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: simgear/structure/ssgSharedPtr.hxx: No such file or directory ... thoughts? You are probably trying to build plib branch of flightgear with osg branch of simgear. Those two have to match, ie. both plib or both osg. -- Csaba - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FG OSG build error
Csaba Hala'sz wrote: On 10/20/07, Laurence Vanek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: simgear/structure/ssgSharedPtr.hxx: No such file or directory ... thoughts? You are probably trying to build plib branch of flightgear with osg branch of simgear. Those two have to match, ie. both plib or both osg. thanks for the reply, but no I have not. Been buiding OSG SimGear with OSG branch of FG for some time now. - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FG OSG build error
On Saturday 20 October 2007 19:46, Csaba Halász wrote: On 10/20/07, Laurence Vanek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: thanks for the reply, but no I have not. Been buiding OSG SimGear with OSG branch of FG for some time now. Ah, ok. Looks like Durk has slipped a dependency on plib-sg into osg-fg. Try changing the src/Navaids/navrecord.hxx:35 line to #include simgear/structure/SGSharedPtr.hxx or roll back that change from cvs. Yikes! That's what you get when installing the two versions on top of each other I guess... Should be fixed in CVS now. Cheers, Durk - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FG OSG build error
Durk Talsma wrote: On Saturday 20 October 2007 19:46, Csaba Halász wrote: On 10/20/07, Laurence Vanek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: thanks for the reply, but no I have not. Been buiding OSG SimGear with OSG branch of FG for some time now. Ah, ok. Looks like Durk has slipped a dependency on plib-sg into osg-fg. Try changing the src/Navaids/navrecord.hxx:35 line to #include simgear/structure/SGSharedPtr.hxx or roll back that change from cvs. Yikes! That's what you get when installing the two versions on top of each other I guess... Should be fixed in CVS now. Cheers, Durk Its fixed for me. Thank you gentlemen. Durk, as a side note, I commend your efforts to track down the legendary stick-slip or stutter problem. A number of us have been suffering with this issue for some time now. - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FG OSG build error
Its fixed for me. Thank you gentlemen. Durk, as a side note, I commend your efforts to track down the legendary stick-slip or stutter problem. A number of us have been suffering with this issue for some time now. I like to add my thanks to Durk here. The problem got worser and worser (on FG OSG) during the last months, after flying 20 minutes over more densly populated areas (= some objects placed) my framerates got down to 8 from 85 - what made me everytime killing flightgear as one can't control a helicopter with such stuttering. I just compiled a new OSG version with some of the fixes included, as I understand it. Now I am very curious ... Anyway, I can imagine how much work such a debug/search/repair work is, once again thank you to Durk and all other developers engaged with this. Georg EDDW - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Material animation problems with osg
On Sat, 2007-10-20 at 18:24 +0100, Jon Stockill wrote: SydSandy wrote: I havent tested this one but Ive found that I have to put the material animation first before any others for it to work It appears to be a bug in the osg version - changing bool to int and true/false to 1/0 makes everything work. Is plib doing a type conversion that osg isnt? Jon It sounds like that is the case, and its not unreasonable, IMHO, that you can't multiply a number by false and get a valid answer. Have you tried something like this: animation typematerial/type object-nameLED/object-name condition/instrumentation/elt/enabled/condition emission red1/red green0/green blue0/blue /emission /animation Ron - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Material animation problems with osg
On Sat, 2007-10-20 at 17:28 -0600, Ron Jensen wrote: On Sat, 2007-10-20 at 18:24 +0100, Jon Stockill wrote: SydSandy wrote: I havent tested this one but Ive found that I have to put the material animation first before any others for it to work It appears to be a bug in the osg version - changing bool to int and true/false to 1/0 makes everything work. Is plib doing a type conversion that osg isnt? Jon It sounds like that is the case, and its not unreasonable, IMHO, that you can't multiply a number by false and get a valid answer. Have you tried something like this: animation typematerial/type object-nameLED/object-name condition/instrumentation/elt/enabled/condition emission red1/red green0/green blue0/blue /emission /animation Ron Nevermind, that didn't work at all for me. However, I put your code (more or less) into an instrument I have here and it did work under OSG. The AvionicsToggle is a toggle switch model taken from Aircraft/Instruments-3d/controls/switch-large-flat.ac. It rotates with the boolean property value as well. I last built Simgear/Flightgear on 31 Aug and am using OSG 2.0: ?xml version=1.0? PropertyList pathswitch-panel.ac/path animation typematerial/type object-nameLED/object-name emission red0.9/red green0.0/green blue0.0/blue factor-propcontrols/FIXME/factor-prop /emission /animation animation typerotate/type object-nameAvionicsToggle/object-name propertycontrols/FIXME/property factor40/factor axis x0.0/x y-1.0/y z0.0/z /axis center x-m 0.0/x-m y-m 0.0/y-m z-m-0.009/z-m /center /animation animation typepick/type action nameAvionics Power Toggle/name button0/button binding commandproperty-toggle/command propertycontrols/FIXME/property /binding /action object-nameAvionicsToggle/object-name /animation /PropertyList - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] Weekly CVS Changelog Summary: SimGear
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 2007-10-15_10:51:38 (mfranz) /var/cvs/SimGear-0.3/source/simgear/scene/model/model.cxx - warn about *.osg submodels, but otherwise ignore them. This allows to use aircraft using OSG smoke (e.g. the Buccaneer) in fg/plib. - warning-- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 2007-10-15_11:20:16 (mfranz) /var/cvs/SimGear-0.3/source/simgear/scene/model/model.cxx ignore OSG models already for main-models, not just submodels, so that they don't have to be used in model tags. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 2007-10-15_13:49:50 (durk) /var/cvs/SimGear-0.3/source/simgear/math/SGVec2.hxx - A few fixes to ensure SimGear compiles again on cygwin. * on cygwin, isnan is declared in ieeepf.h * CYGWIN is a special case in that it is windows based, but sometimes folows unix conventions. SGAtomic compilation failed on an illegal volatile type cast without the additional __CYGWIN__ define check. 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] Weekly CVS Changelog Summary: FlightGear source
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 2007-10-14_02:42:00 (durk) /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/source/src/ATC/AIMgr.cxx - Fix potential memory leak in AIMgr - Use SGSharedPointer to manage navaid database. The FGNavList classes are storing pointers to FGNavRecord object. In one case (DME and TACAN), objects were shared by by two lists, causing a double deletion. The SGShared pointer makes the explicit deletion of these lists obsolete, and handles memory deallocation in a safe and controlled way. - Possible fix for the ATC/tower.cxx destructor crash. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 2007-10-14_02:42:01 (durk) /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/source/src/ATC/tower.cxx /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/source/src/Navaids/navdb.cxx /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/source/src/Navaids/navlist.cxx /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/source/src/Navaids/navlist.hxx /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/source/src/Navaids/navrecord.hxx - Fix potential memory leak in AIMgr - Use SGSharedPointer to manage navaid database. The FGNavList classes are storing pointers to FGNavRecord object. In one case (DME and TACAN), objects were shared by by two lists, causing a double deletion. The SGShared pointer makes the explicit deletion of these lists obsolete, and handles memory deallocation in a safe and controlled way. - Possible fix for the ATC/tower.cxx destructor crash. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 2007-10-14_02:51:14 (mfranz) /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/source/src/Scripting/NasalSys.cxx airportinfo(): add possibility to search for next airport of a particular type: airport (default), seaport, heliport =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 2007-10-14_05:05:43 (mfranz) /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/source/src/Airports/apt_loader.cxx fix off-by-one bug for airport type handling =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 2007-10-14_08:28:54 (durk) /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/source/src/Main/globals.cxx More cleanup: * Valgrind reported an interaction between AIModels (AIBase::unbind() in particular) and other subsystems, i particular FGLight. Therefore we want to make sure we to take AIModels down first. Likewise, since the property tree is the backbone of FlightGear, it's probably best to take it down last * Remove valgrind loss record 135 from my todo list =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 2007-10-14_08:28:55 (durk) /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/source/src/Navaids/navlist.hxx /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/source/src/Navaids/navrecord.hxx More cleanup: * Valgrind reported an interaction between AIModels (AIBase::unbind() in particular) and other subsystems, i particular FGLight. Therefore we want to make sure we to take AIModels down first. Likewise, since the property tree is the backbone of FlightGear, it's probably best to take it down last * Remove valgrind loss record 135 from my todo list =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 2007-10-14_13:01:35 (mfranz) /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/source/src/Scripting/NasalSys.cxx /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/source/src/Scripting/NasalSys.hxx revert meaning of third, optional argument, and add an optional fourth argument: setlistener(property, func [, initial=0 [, persistent=1]]) This definition defaults to the old behavior. The fourth argument can be set to zero, in which case the function is only called when the node value has actually changed. It should really default to zero, but then all callers would have to be reviewed, which is a bit too dangerous shortly before a release. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 2007-10-15_11:28:42 (mfranz) /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/source/src/Scripting/NasalSys.cxx /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/source/src/Scripting/NasalSys.hxx - add argc/argv arguments to FGNasalSys::call - add support for childAdded/childRemoved listeners - use regular function arguments for property ghosts - warning-- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 2007-10-15_14:12:02 (mfranz) /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/source/src/Scripting/NasalSys.cxx (depreciated) cmdarg() should return _node, not parent =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 2007-10-16_02:55:46 (mfranz) /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/source/src/Main/main.cxx give FDMs one update cycle time before setting the fdm-initialized signal (YASim needs that to fully initialize the landing gear) =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 2007-10-16_10:01:29 (mfranz) /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/source/src/Main/main.cxx - use refcounted node pointers, so that no subsystem (nasal!) can invalidate them - add frame signal for debugging purposes =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 2007-10-16_10:15:39 (mfranz) /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/source/src/Scripting/NasalSys.cxx /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/source/src/Scripting/NasalSys.hxx /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/source/src/Scripting/nasal-props.cxx
[Flightgear-devel] Weekly CVS Changelog Summary: FlightGear data
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 2007-10-14_02:24:35 (mfranz) /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/data/Aircraft/Generic/century2b.nas /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/data/Aircraft/Generic/century3.nas Dave PERRY: I have been working with Torsten Dryer to model these three autopilots that are very common in aircraft manufactured in the 1960s through the late 1980s. The Altimatic IIIc in the SenecaII is a variation on the Century III and uses the same nasal model. mf: these should be in cvs since a while; somehow I missed them, sorry =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 2007-10-14_13:21:09 (mfranz) /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/data/Aircraft/flash2a/Models/asi/asi.xml /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/data/Aircraft/flash2a/Models/compass/compass.xml /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/data/Aircraft/flash2a/Models/egt/egt.xml /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/data/Aircraft/flash2a/Models/rpm/rpm.xml Stuart BUCHANAN: - Updates to the models - LoD for instruments. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 2007-10-14_17:09:30 (mfranz) /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/data/Models/fgfsdb/generic_pylon_01.xml /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/data/Models/fgfsdb/generic_pylon_02.xml Jon STOCKILL: pylon update (smaller faster range animation) =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 2007-10-14_19:18:14 (helijah) /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/data/Aircraft/H4-Hercules/Models/glass.rgb - Missing file :( =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 2007-10-14_19:18:57 (helijah) /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/data/Aircraft/H4-Hercules/Nasal/doors.nas -Missing file =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 2007-10-15_13:27:42 (mfranz) /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/data/Nasal/debug.nas setlistener(): accessing the node via cmdarg() is now depreciated. Use a regular function argument for that. Note the n in this example: setlistener(/sim/current-view/view-number, func(n) { setprop(/sim/hud/visibility, !n.getValue()); }, 1); =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 2007-10-20_21:29:32 (sydadams) /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/data/Aircraft/ch47/ch47-splash.rgb /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/data/Aircraft/ch47/ch47d.xml adding current 3d updates ... but still not flyable 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel