Re: [Flightgear-devel] CVS: data/Aircraft/Boeing314 Boeing314A.xml, 1.5, 1.6
* Erik Hofman -- Wednesday 21 January 2009: [...] Modified Files: Boeing314A.xml Log Message: Add the license statement + license + licenseNameGPL (General Public License)/licenseName + licenseURLhttp://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html/licenseURL + /license + note + [...]This model + is not to be sold. + /note That's impossible! The GPL explicitly allows selling software, and it does *not* allow to add restrictions! So, either the is not to be sold has to be removed, or the aircraft shall be removed from CVS. m. -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] CVS: data/Aircraft/Boeing314 Boeing314A.xml, 1.5, 1.6
On mercredi 21 janvier 2009, Melchior FRANZ wrote: * Erik Hofman -- Wednesday 21 January 2009: [...] Modified Files: Boeing314A.xml Log Message: Add the license statement + license + licenseNameGPL (General Public License)/licenseName + licenseURLhttp://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html/licenseURL + /license + note + [...]This model + is not to be sold. + /note That's impossible! The GPL explicitly allows selling software, and it does *not* allow to add restrictions! So, either the is not to be sold has to be removed, or the aircraft shall be removed from CVS. m. I was told by a layer, since we are writing that the model is copyrighted protected under Licence GPLV2 , we may write anything we want as addons regarding the protection, these addons won't be taken in account , and one may ignore it. Are we wrong ? Cheers -- Gérard http://pagesperso-orange.fr/GRTux/ J'ai décidé d'être heureux parce que c'est bon pour la santé. Voltaire -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] CVS: data/Aircraft/Boeing314 Boeing314A.xml, 1.5, 1.6
Melchior FRANZ wrote: * Erik Hofman -- Wednesday 21 January 2009: [...] Modified Files: Boeing314A.xml Log Message: Add the license statement + license + licenseNameGPL (General Public License)/licenseName + licenseURLhttp://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html/licenseURL + /license + note + [...]This model + is not to be sold. + /note That's impossible! The GPL explicitly allows selling software, and it does *not* allow to add restrictions! So, either the is not to be sold has to be removed, or the aircraft shall be removed from CVS. Ah sorry, that slipped my attention, you are right. I'll ask Jon about it. Erik -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] CVS: data/Aircraft/Boeing314 Boeing314A.xml,
Melchior FRANZ wrote: * Erik Hofman -- Wednesday 21 January 2009: + license + licenseNameGPL (General Public License)/licenseName + licenseURLhttp://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html/licenseURL + /license + note + [...]This model + is not to be sold. + /note That's impossible! The GPL explicitly allows selling software, and it does *not* allow to add restrictions! a) The phrase in question is added as a note, it's not part of the license statement. b) The GPL states that You may charge a fee for the physical act of transferring a copy, [...], but You may not copy, modify, sublicense, or distribute the Program except as expressly provided under this License. Now, how would you interpret the vague term of selling a software ? The word selling is probably a bit unfortunately choosen here, but depending on one's interpretation, the note might conform pretty well with the ideals of the GPL, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] CVS: data/Aircraft/Boeing314 Boeing314A.xml, 1.5, 1.6
* gerard robin -- Wednesday 21 January 2009: I was told by a layer, since we are writing that the model is copyrighted protected under Licence GPLV2 , we may write anything we want as addons regarding the protection, these addons won't be taken in account , and one may ignore it. That probably depends on the jurisdiction of the respective country. The added is not to be sold does (or pretends to) explicitly express the will of the rights owner. That it isn't in the linked GPL document has no meaning. That it's not within the license tags, may be a different issue, but one has at least to assume that it's meant as a license restriction. And even if it's guaranteed that the addition isn't legally binding, it's then still misleading and against the spirit of the GPL and Free software. As such it has no place in our repository, no matter what. And if it's invalid, then why add it in the first place?! Finally, whoever added (not committed) the restriction should be aware that *if* s/he infringes on the GPL, s/he loses the right to use *any* GPL'ed software. m. -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] CVS: data/Aircraft/Boeing314 Boeing314A.xml,
On Wednesday, 21. January 2009, Martin Spott wrote: b) The GPL states that You may charge a fee for the physical act of transferring a copy, [...], but You may not copy, modify, sublicense, or distribute the Program except as expressly provided under this License. Now, how would you interpret the vague term of selling a software ? The word selling is probably a bit unfortunately choosen here, but depending on one's interpretation, the note might conform pretty well with the ideals of the GPL, Please, as we are no lawers ourselfs, and as the statement in the GPL may be easily misunderstood, accept the Free Software Foundation's answer to this question: Does the GPL allow me to sell copies of the program for money? Yes, the GPL allows everyone to do this. The right to sell copies is part of the definition of free software. Except in one special situation, there is no limit on what price you can charge. (The one exception is the required written offer to provide source code that must accompany binary-only release.) http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#DoesTheGPLAllowMoney Stefan -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] CVS: data/Aircraft/Boeing314 Boeing314A.xml,
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#DoesTheGPLAllowMoney Does the GPL allow me to sell copies of the program for money? Yes, the GPL allows everyone to do this. The right to sell copies is part of the definition of free software. Except in one special situation, there is no limit on what price you can charge. (The one exception is the required written offer to provide source code that must accompany binary-only release.) m. -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] CVS: data/Aircraft/Boeing314 Boeing314A.xml,
Erik Hofman wrote: Update of /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/data/Aircraft/Boeing314 In directory baron.flightgear.org:/tmp/cvs-serv11895 Modified Files: Boeing314A.xml Log Message: Add the license statement + This simulation model is not endorsed by the manufacturer. This model + is not to be sold. Melchior FRANZ wrote: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#DoesTheGPLAllowMoney Does the GPL allow me to sell copies of the program for money? You see the difference ? Hey, usually MF is unnatural over-picky about everyone's statements and/or ideas, now he breaks with his own habits. Nice, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] CVS: data/Aircraft/Boeing314 Boeing314A.xml,
On mercredi 21 janvier 2009, Martin Spott wrote: Erik Hofman wrote: Update of /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/data/Aircraft/Boeing314 In directory baron.flightgear.org:/tmp/cvs-serv11895 Modified Files: Boeing314A.xml Log Message: Add the license statement + This simulation model is not endorsed by the manufacturer. This model + is not to be sold. Melchior FRANZ wrote: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#DoesTheGPLAllowMoney Does the GPL allow me to sell copies of the program for money? You see the difference ? Hey, usually MF is unnatural over-picky about everyone's statements and/or ideas, now he breaks with his own habits. Nice, Martin. Cool, Martin Nobody, here and everywhere is perfect :) -- Gérard http://pagesperso-orange.fr/GRTux/ J'ai décidé d'être heureux parce que c'est bon pour la santé. Voltaire -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] CVS: data/Aircraft/Boeing314 Boeing314A.xml,
Martin Spott wrote: Erik Hofman wrote: Update of /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/data/Aircraft/Boeing314 In directory baron.flightgear.org:/tmp/cvs-serv11895 Modified Files: Boeing314A.xml Log Message: Add the license statement + This simulation model is not endorsed by the manufacturer. This model + is not to be sold. Melchior FRANZ wrote: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#DoesTheGPLAllowMoney Does the GPL allow me to sell copies of the program for money? You see the difference ? Is this a trick question? Tim -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] CVS: data/Aircraft/Boeing314 Boeing314A.xml,
Tim Moore wrote: Martin Spott wrote: Erik Hofman wrote: Update of /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/data/Aircraft/Boeing314 In directory baron.flightgear.org:/tmp/cvs-serv11895 Modified Files: Boeing314A.xml Log Message: Add the license statement + This simulation model is not endorsed by the manufacturer. This model + is not to be sold. Melchior FRANZ wrote: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#DoesTheGPLAllowMoney Does the GPL allow me to sell copies of the program for money? You see the difference ? Is this a trick question? Nope. Selling a 'computerized' (to sum it up) model (or just any other sort of 'software') might, when you keep typical commercial software contracts in mind, be well understood as selling a license of the model/software. This is obviously different from selling a copy in the understanding of the GPL, which refers to the physical act of transferring. We're talking about wether the model has top be removed from CVS (original statement from MF) and all the consequences which might follow, so we probably should care about the details as well. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] CVS: data/Aircraft/Boeing314 Boeing314A.xml, 1.5, 1.6
On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:06:42 +0100, gerard wrote in message 200901211406.42997.ghma...@gmail.com: On mercredi 21 janvier 2009, Melchior FRANZ wrote: * Erik Hofman -- Wednesday 21 January 2009: [...] Modified Files: Boeing314A.xml Log Message: Add the license statement + license + licenseNameGPL (General Public License)/licenseName + licenseURLhttp://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html/licenseURL + /license + note + [...]This model + is not to be sold. + /note That's impossible! The GPL explicitly allows selling software, and it does *not* allow to add restrictions! So, either the is not to be sold has to be removed, or the aircraft shall be removed from CVS. m. I was told by a layer, since we are writing that the model is copyrighted protected under Licence GPLV2 , we may write anything we want as addons regarding the protection, these addons won't be taken in account , and one may ignore it. Are we wrong ? ..in a word, yes. ..if you are the original author, you can license it under _another_ license to create 2 or more paralell models, one EULA for use in e.g. MSFS, one GPLv2 _without_ your is not to be sold for use in FG-cvs, and a _real_nice_ one under GPLv3 to push us all, the right way. ;o) ..note that IP cannot move between these license trees, unless each modifier author also licenses his modification under each license. Big ass mess, essentially, the only exception being GPLv2-and-later to GPLv3. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] CVS: data/Aircraft/Boeing314 Boeing314A.xml, 1.5, 1.6
Maybe I'm being naive here , but wouldn't be easier to jusr remove the word Boeing from the files ? -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] CVS: data/Aircraft/Boeing314 Boeing314A.xml,
Martin Spott wrote: Tim Moore wrote: Martin Spott wrote: Erik Hofman wrote: Update of /var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9/data/Aircraft/Boeing314 In directory baron.flightgear.org:/tmp/cvs-serv11895 Modified Files: Boeing314A.xml Log Message: Add the license statement + This simulation model is not endorsed by the manufacturer. This model + is not to be sold. Melchior FRANZ wrote: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#DoesTheGPLAllowMoney Does the GPL allow me to sell copies of the program for money? You see the difference ? Is this a trick question? Nope. Selling a 'computerized' (to sum it up) model (or just any other sort of 'software') might, when you keep typical commercial software contracts in mind, be well understood as selling a license of the model/software. This is obviously different from selling a copy in the understanding of the GPL, which refers to the physical act of transferring. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html makes it clear that selling a copy is GNUspeak for sell. People around here get bent out of shape when their screen shots are used to sell copies of FlightGear. We're talking about wether the model has top be removed from CVS (original statement from MF) and all the consequences which might follow, so we probably should care about the details as well. This model is not to be sold seems pretty explicit to me. Maybe Boeing really means it, maybe they don't, but as originally committed this is a significant restriction on the GPL. Tim -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
