Re: [Foundation-l] Board statement regarding biographies of living people
2009/5/2 Nikola Smolenski smole...@eunet.yu: Дана Saturday 02 May 2009 02:58:05 Anthony написа: On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 5:44 PM, Nikola Smolenski smole...@eunet.yu wrote: Дана Friday 01 May 2009 19:06:55 Gregory Kohs написа: additional jet fuel and hotel consumption (laundered sheets, poor recycling standards, etc.) is something to consider if the polar ice melts and floods Laundered sheets at least don't add any polution, because people would have to launder their sheets at home too. I quote George Costanza when I say not every day! Apartmenthaus am Potsdamer Platz did not change sheets during our stay. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l Dear lord, are we really debating on whether or not sheet changing really makes a difference in a conference? By that logic, we should never attend conferences anywhere and always stay in our hometowns and attend remotely. Most asinine thread on foundation-l in quite a long time, IMHO. -Chad ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Board statement regarding biographies of living people
On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 10:06 AM, Gregory Kohs thekoh...@gmail.com wrote: The purpose of my question was to examine the carbon impact on our global environment by holding this meeting in Berlin, which (by my estimation) is quite a ways off from the point of least cumulative distance that could have been achieved for at least the mandatory attendees. All of that additional jet fuel and hotel consumption (laundered sheets, poor recycling standards, etc.) is something to consider if the polar ice melts and floods San Francisco one day, thanks to CO2-accelerated warming. A shorter-haul Boeing 737 flight burns about 200 pounds of fuel per passenger. I can only imagine that a trans-continental flight, plus a trans-Atlantic leg to Berlin, is likely burning at least 400 pounds of fuel per passenger. Return trip makes that 800 pounds of fuel. I hope each of the San Francisco-based attendees feel comfortable that their burning of 800 pounds of jet fuel (about 114 gallons) in order to attend the conference in Berlin (a conference that, as far as I can tell, had zero dial-in conferencing options offered) was justified? I get the impression that there is a corporate culture afoot at the Wikimedia Foundation that stifles any attempts to optimize meetings and conferences in ways that might be more economical and environmentally friendly, with innovations such as Skype and video-teleconferencing. My sense is that interesting and exotic places are chosen instead... San Francisco, the Netherlands, Berlin, Taipei, Alexandria (Egypt, not Virginia), Buenos Aires, etc. I suspect it's part of the corporate culture to get the backwater taste of St. Petersburg (Florida, not Russia) out of everyone's mouth, to select all of these far-flung, non-English-speaking locales for a Board that consists mostly of North Americans who speak English, and who are funded mostly by U.S. dollars. You are missing one essential point here: This meeting was designed as to allow joint meetings between the chapters, the board and the WMF staff, something you cannot simply imitate by using videoconferencing. Everyone from a corporate environment will be able to tell you that physical meetings are still more productive than the best videoconferencing or dial-in conference there is. Furthermore, I do not assume that any of the chapters has expensive video-conferencing technology (does the WMF have?). If you take the distribution of chapters into account, then Berlin suddenly becomes much more reasonable, both in terms of length of travel (and thus CO2 emissions) as well as cost for the individual participants, who mostly will not have funds available compared to the WMF, so it is not that surprising either that the WMF probably had higher travel expenses than this than most of the (non-Asian) chapters. Michael -- Michael Bimmler mbimm...@gmail.com ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Board statement regarding biographies of living people
From the Chapters point of view, Berlin is pretty much as central as you can get (restricting locations to those on the surface of the planet!). I don't know the distribution of developers, so can't comment about that. If you look at the board meeting alone, then yes, it would probably make much more sense to hold it elsewhere - but combine it with the other meetings, and Berlin is a very sensible place to hold it. Voice and video conferencing have come a long way, but are not even close to meeting in person in terms of time-effectiveness or effect on relations, especially if the people involved haven't met each other before. Until meetings can be held in immersive 3D environments, I doubt things will improve (and even then, meeting over tea/beer can't happen, which is incredibly useful to get to know someone). The locations that you list for board meetings all tally extremely well with places that other events have happened in - mostly Wikimanias - and I would assume that the dates are in very good agreement. It makes a huge amount of sense for board members to go to those events (whose location isn't determined by the board), and once they're all together why not hold a board meeting? Note that within the academic world, far more exotic and far-flung places are chosen for conferences. In comparison, the WMF is incredibly restrained! BTW, I trust that, since you are so in favour of being green, you never go on holiday to foreign countries, and avoid making any unnecessary trips (be it long or short distance)? Mike Peel On 1 May 2009, at 18:06, Gregory Kohs wrote: The purpose of my question was to examine the carbon impact on our global environment by holding this meeting in Berlin, which (by my estimation) is quite a ways off from the point of least cumulative distance that could have been achieved for at least the mandatory attendees. All of that additional jet fuel and hotel consumption (laundered sheets, poor recycling standards, etc.) is something to consider if the polar ice melts and floods San Francisco one day, thanks to CO2-accelerated warming. A shorter-haul Boeing 737 flight burns about 200 pounds of fuel per passenger. I can only imagine that a trans-continental flight, plus a trans-Atlantic leg to Berlin, is likely burning at least 400 pounds of fuel per passenger. Return trip makes that 800 pounds of fuel. I hope each of the San Francisco-based attendees feel comfortable that their burning of 800 pounds of jet fuel (about 114 gallons) in order to attend the conference in Berlin (a conference that, as far as I can tell, had zero dial-in conferencing options offered) was justified? I get the impression that there is a corporate culture afoot at the Wikimedia Foundation that stifles any attempts to optimize meetings and conferences in ways that might be more economical and environmentally friendly, with innovations such as Skype and video- teleconferencing. My sense is that interesting and exotic places are chosen instead... San Francisco, the Netherlands, Berlin, Taipei, Alexandria (Egypt, not Virginia), Buenos Aires, etc. I suspect it's part of the corporate culture to get the backwater taste of St. Petersburg (Florida, not Russia) out of everyone's mouth, to select all of these far-flung, non-English- speaking locales for a Board that consists mostly of North Americans who speak English, and who are funded mostly by U.S. dollars. I know that regarding a recent trade conference that was only 124 miles from our headquarters, my Fortune 100 employer sent down an edict that only one of the 3 people from our team of 14 personnel who were interested in going, could actually attend. Certainly, this was more of an economic decision than a green decision, but frankly, the two are often hand-in-hand outcomes. Is the Wikimedia Foundation very green in its governance practices? I know that Wikia, Inc. touts its dedication to Green, but what about the WMF? Here's a 100-gallon aquarium: *http://tinyurl.com/100-gallon-tank* Imagine it full of jet fuel, then setting a match to it, sucking oxygen out of the air, and replacing it with carbon-laden molecules. That's what each of the North American board members did to enable travel to Berlin to hold their meeting which seems to have exhausted most of the attendees. -- Gregory Kohs ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Board statement regarding biographies of living people
Дана Friday 01 May 2009 19:06:55 Gregory Kohs написа: additional jet fuel and hotel consumption (laundered sheets, poor recycling standards, etc.) is something to consider if the polar ice melts and floods Laundered sheets at least don't add any polution, because people would have to launder their sheets at home too. friendly, with innovations such as Skype and video-teleconferencing. My sense is that interesting and exotic places are chosen instead... San Francisco, the Netherlands, Berlin, Taipei, Alexandria (Egypt, not Virginia), Buenos Aires, etc. I suspect it's part of the corporate culture to get the backwater taste of St. Petersburg (Florida, not Russia) out of everyone's mouth, to select all of these far-flung, non-English-speaking locales for a Board that consists mostly of North Americans who speak English, and who are funded mostly by U.S. dollars. These locations are chosen mostly in order to increase interest in Wiki[mp]edia around the world. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Board statement regarding biographies of living people
On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 5:44 PM, Nikola Smolenski smole...@eunet.yu wrote: Дана Friday 01 May 2009 19:06:55 Gregory Kohs написа: additional jet fuel and hotel consumption (laundered sheets, poor recycling standards, etc.) is something to consider if the polar ice melts and floods Laundered sheets at least don't add any polution, because people would have to launder their sheets at home too. I quote George Costanza when I say not every day! ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Board statement regarding biographies of living people
Hi! Sorry for late answer - I visited the offline world (it had awesome mountains with snowcaps, sky-blue oceans and tulip fields ;-) So, the community is urged to do this work at the request of the Board, but the Board itself is going to do virtually nothing (other than this collection of words that urges the community to work harder) to strengthen the commitment to high-quality, accurate information. Do note, exercising any kind of authority over community is very strong step. Board does not rule the community, we work on facilitating the community. How many Board members were in attendance in Berlin, and what was the mean travel distance of the Board attendees for this excursion? I have difficulty seeing why this question is important, but can sure answer it, just let me clarify a bit. excursion |ɪkˈskəːʃ(ə)n| |ɛk-|noun 1 a short journey or trip, esp. one engaged in as a leisure activity I really cannot classify any of board meetings as 'leisure' - they're usually quite intense days (don't forget the jetlag our global commitments bring in :) In this particular trip the agenda was combined with chapters meeting agenda, tech team meetings, also meeting local communities. I cannot call it leisure, it is way more intense than my day job (oh, and vacation time is used ;-) By using such words you seem to be antagonizing the organization and the work that is being done, and therefore either you're a troll, or you just genuinely do not understand the work everyone around is doing, and see just your own agenda. Anyway, back to the Berlin meeting. Average travel distance for board members was (pardon the metric) ~5000km (for three members it was below 1000km) - and whole board was attending the meeting. Sometimes meetings involve meeting quite some staff, as their feedback is extremely valuable in certain topics too, so usually meetings happen in SF. In this case, as I mentioned above, nearly (over?) 100 community members were met overall - so if we'd include that, the mean travel distance would be way way lower - and the value of the meeting was extremely high. I hope this satisfies your curiosity, and also I hope next time you'll be more polite and careful picking your words. Thanks! :) BR, -- Domas Mituzas -- http://dammit.lt/ -- [[user:midom]] ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Board statement regarding biographies of living people
2009/4/30 Domas Mituzas midom.li...@gmail.com: In this case, as I mentioned above, nearly (over?) 100 community members were met overall - so if we'd include that, the mean travel distance would be way way lower - and the value of the meeting was extremely high. I believe there were about 50 chapters people about about 100 devs. I'm not sure why the mean travel distance would be lower if you include everyone - there were people from all around the world there, many having travelled further than the average board member. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Board statement regarding biographies of living people
Thomas, I believe there were about 50 chapters people about about 100 devs. I'm not sure why the mean travel distance would be lower if you include everyone - there were people from all around the world there, many having travelled further than the average board member. Actually, I'd be happy if you were right (and you probably are!) - it shows, that lots of people had the motivation to come to this excursion. Cheers, -- Domas Mituzas -- http://dammit.lt/ -- [[user:midom]] ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Board statement regarding biographies of living people
2009/4/30 Domas Mituzas midom.li...@gmail.com: Thomas, I believe there were about 50 chapters people about about 100 devs. I'm not sure why the mean travel distance would be lower if you include everyone - there were people from all around the world there, many having travelled further than the average board member. Actually, I'd be happy if you were right (and you probably are!) - it shows, that lots of people had the motivation to come to this excursion. Every single chapter was represented by at least one person - I was extremely impressed by that. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Board statement regarding biographies of living people
On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Domas Mituzas midom.li...@gmail.comwrote: Actually, I'd be happy if you were right (and you probably are!) - it shows, that lots of people had the motivation to come to this excursion. But yet you can't classify it as leisure? ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Board statement regarding biographies of living people
On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 2:15 PM, Alex mrzmanw...@gmail.com wrote: Anthony wrote: On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Domas Mituzas midom.li...@gmail.comwrote: Actually, I'd be happy if you were right (and you probably are!) - it shows, that lots of people had the motivation to come to this excursion. But yet you can't classify it as leisure? It may not be for the board members, but I imagine for the volunteer developers and other community members who had few or no real commitments it was. I'm not sure why you regard the commitments a chapter board member has towards his/her chapter as less real or less serious than the commitments a WMF board member or staff employee has towards the WMF. Really, this was not a wiki-meetup... Michael -- Michael Bimmler mbimm...@gmail.com ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Board statement regarding biographies of living people
Anthony wrote: On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Domas Mituzas midom.li...@gmail.comwrote: Actually, I'd be happy if you were right (and you probably are!) - it shows, that lots of people had the motivation to come to this excursion. But yet you can't classify it as leisure? It may not be for the board members, but I imagine for the volunteer developers and other community members who had few or no real commitments it was. -- Alex (wikipedia:en:User:Mr.Z-man) ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Board statement regarding biographies of living people
Michael Bimmler wrote: On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 2:15 PM, Alex mrzmanw...@gmail.com wrote: Anthony wrote: On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Domas Mituzas midom.li...@gmail.comwrote: Actually, I'd be happy if you were right (and you probably are!) - it shows, that lots of people had the motivation to come to this excursion. But yet you can't classify it as leisure? It may not be for the board members, but I imagine for the volunteer developers and other community members who had few or no real commitments it was. I'm not sure why you regard the commitments a chapter board member has towards his/her chapter as less real or less serious than the commitments a WMF board member or staff employee has towards the WMF. Really, this was not a wiki-meetup... I'm not sure why you feel the need to read more into my comment than was there. It was a short comment, so I thought a short reply would be adequate. My apologies for not researching and specifically mentioning every group that was at the event. -- Alex (wikipedia:en:User:Mr.Z-man) ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Board statement regarding biographies of living people
2009/4/30 Alex mrzmanw...@gmail.com: Anthony wrote: On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Domas Mituzas midom.li...@gmail.comwrote: Actually, I'd be happy if you were right (and you probably are!) - it shows, that lots of people had the motivation to come to this excursion. But yet you can't classify it as leisure? It may not be for the board members, but I imagine for the volunteer developers and other community members who had few or no real commitments it was. Without any hyperbole, I can tell you I have never in my life been as exhausted as I was when I got home from Berlin. It was fascinating, enjoyable, productive, worthwhile, interesting and all kinds of other positive adjectives, but leisurely, it was not! ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Board statement regarding biographies of living people
2009/4/22 Gregory Kohs thekoh...@gmail.com: Says Michael Snow: The Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees urges the global Wikimedia community to uphold and strengthen our commitment to high-quality, accurate information ++ So, the community is urged to do this work at the request of the Board, but the Board itself is going to do virtually nothing (other than this collection of words that urges the community to work harder) to strengthen the commitment to high-quality, accurate information. Basically, yes. Content has always been the responsibility of the community. How many Board members were in attendance in Berlin, and what was the mean travel distance of the Board attendees for this excursion? This was far from the only thing they did while in Berlin. Their schedule was even more crowded than that of the Chapters' representatives, and I found the chapters meeting the most exhausting thing I've ever done. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Board statement regarding biographies of living people
Am I on moderation? On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 9:23 AM, Gregory Kohs thekoh...@gmail.com wrote: Says Michael Snow: The Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees urges the global Wikimedia community to uphold and strengthen our commitment to high-quality, accurate information ++ So, the community is urged to do this work at the request of the Board, but the Board itself is going to do virtually nothing (other than this collection of words that urges the community to work harder) to strengthen the commitment to high-quality, accurate information. How many Board members were in attendance in Berlin, and what was the mean travel distance of the Board attendees for this excursion? -- Gregory Kohs ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Board statement regarding biographies of living people
2009/4/22 Gregory Kohs thekoh...@gmail.com: Am I on moderation? Not that I can see. Your previous email came through OK. However, note that even if you tell it to, Gmail will *not* show you a copy of messages you sent to a list. This is, apparently, for your comfort and convenience. If you're not sure if a message made it through, checking the archive page is useful (though it doesn't update instantly and can sometimes have a delay of hours). - d. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
