Re: two questions for candidates
On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 12:04:14PM +1100, Jeff Waugh wrote: quote who=Rui Miguel Silva Seabra Microsoft isn't defending OOXML under the terms defined by ISO. So we should be as grubby and corrupt as them? No, we simply shouldn't be lax or complacent with a convicted entity who has not changed its methods, as if it was a normal human being. What I am saying here is not that we should put up a weak fight. I am saying we should *defeat* OOXML under the terms defined by ISO. As far as ISO is concerned, GNOME Foundation participated in the Disposition of Comments. We know that isn't true, but ECMA's PR is clearly written in a way to suggest all those entities did it without saying it outright. BTW, Jeff, Jody: did the GNOME Foundation ever receive a notice from ECMA to participate in the Disposition of Comments? I'd really like to know that in order to call ECMA out in the open... I'm helping to do that in Australia. It is in the local standards bodies that the fight exists now. Not on the GNOME Foundation mailing list. Yes, but the matter is of... Right on, but you could make sure not only geeks noticed the many poison pills of OOXML. This discussion is an evident proof one of the poison pills is getting at people. This discussion is not about supporting OOXML. ... profiling candidates :) Rui -- Today is Boomtime, the 40th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3173 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: two questions for candidates
Hi, Le lundi 26 novembre 2007, à 10:28 -0500, Richard Stallman a écrit : 1. Would you change anything in the GNOME Foundation statement about OOXML? I might have changed a word or two, and I would have liked to see this statement out sooner, as others said... But no big change. 2. How do you think the GNOME Foundation should support the Free Software Movement in general? My first reaction to this question is that it's quite vague to me. I mean, I can reply the GNOME Foundation is already supporting Free Software because it supports GNOME and wants to see GNOME more widely in use, and because it's advocating Free Software, and But this is no news to anybody here, is it? The goal of the Foundation is to support GNOME, and one of the core values of GNOME is freedom. Now, sometimes, it makes sense to support the movement by participating in some campaigns with other organizations. We've done this with the Go for OFL! campaign: http://www.unifont.org/go_for_ofl/ This is just an example, of course, but this gives you an idea of what we can do. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: On Boston Summit organization and delegation [was Re: A question to candidates]
quote who=Behdad Esfahbod But if you look, I asked for help about Boston Summit on the boston-social list as early as June: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/boston-social/2007-June/msg0.html and got no reply. I mailed at least three Boston residents directly and got no reply either. And I gave up and Jeff ended up doing it all the way from Australia. It was going well until the *reserved venue* got canceled... Thanks for pointing that out - but I do want to stress again that Zana and Owen saved the day when all else failed, and we should be very grateful to them (not that you're forgetting them, I just wanted to say thanks again). We have to wait until January to book the usual venue at MIT, so I hope J5 (elected or not - formalities, formalities) can adopt that task and pursue it vigorously! :-) - Jeff -- GNOME.conf.au 2008: Melbourne, Australia http://live.gnome.org/Melbourne2008 On Tuesday I saw Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon with Zack and two ladies whom I presume are gracious. - Seth Schoen ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: On Boston Summit organization and delegation [was Re: A question to candidates]
Part of the issue is the Boston Summit is always in Boston where as GUADEC can always get fresh enthusiastic teams to help out. This is because in order to become a host city for GUADEC you already have to have a team assembled to make and sell a bid. This is helped by the fact that host cities and organizers often see prestige in hosting GUADEC. Have the board paused and thought why the Summit has to be Boston? Is it because most hackers work around Boston? May be it was the case. Is it still true now? Are there other locations that substantial number of hackers are around? Just some thoughts :) -Ghee ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: On Boston Summit organization and delegation [was Re: A question to candidates]
On Wed, 2007-11-28 at 17:44 +, Ghee Teo wrote: Part of the issue is the Boston Summit is always in Boston where as GUADEC can always get fresh enthusiastic teams to help out. This is because in order to become a host city for GUADEC you already have to have a team assembled to make and sell a bid. This is helped by the fact that host cities and organizers often see prestige in hosting GUADEC. Have the board paused and thought why the Summit has to be Boston? Is it because most hackers work around Boston? May be it was the case. Is it still true now? Are there other locations that substantial number of hackers are around? Just some thoughts :) It is called the Boston Summit. All joking asside cost is the main issue. The Boston Summit is supposed to be a more informal and efficient gathering where GUADEC is the big bang go all out conference so budgets are handled accordingly. Having it in one city allows us to theoretically keep costs down and make sure the quality is still there. There is also historically a large contingent of GNOME hackers in Boston. We did have it in New York one year. In fact that was the first year I went since being in NY meant I just had to hop a couple of trains to get there. The venue was, shall we say, less than desirable, though it worked out for me. So there are always pros and cons to the equation. Right now I think the pros still outweigh the cons in keeping it in Boston but who knows what the future brings. If someone wanted to organize in some other city and could put together a detailed proposal there is nothing stopping the board from considering it. -- John (J5) Palmieri [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: On Boston Summit organization and delegation [was Re: A question to candidates]
quote who=Ghee Teo Have the board paused and thought why the Summit has to be Boston? Is it because most hackers work around Boston? May be it was the case. Because there's a critical mass of developers there -- most of both the Red Hat and Novell desktop teams. - Jeff -- GNOME.conf.au 2008: Melbourne, Australia http://live.gnome.org/Melbourne2008 The FFF policy: File a bug, Fix it, or F*ck off. - pwhysall on gnomedesktop.org ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: On Boston Summit organization and delegation [was Re: A question to candidates]
quote who=Jeff Waugh quote who=Ghee Teo Have the board paused and thought why the Summit has to be Boston? Is it because most hackers work around Boston? May be it was the case. Because there's a critical mass of developers there -- most of both the Red Hat and Novell desktop teams. Dan Winship points out on IRC that while this was true when the Boston Summit was created, there aren't a lot of Novell desktop hackers left in Boston these days. Perhaps a roaming Columbus Day weekend conference (still in the USA) would be a good thing? - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2008: Melbourne, Australiahttp://lca2008.linux.org.au/ The only people still using Microsoft IIS are those who don't even know it's there. - Larry Ellison ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: On Boston Summit organization and delegation [was Re: A question to candidates]
On Thu, 2007-11-29 at 07:53 +1100, Jeff Waugh wrote: Perhaps a roaming Columbus Day weekend conference (still in the USA) would be a good thing? s/USA/North America/ Canada do exist. And in that case Columbus day is Thanksgiving in Canada so it might be wise to move the date a bit. Hub ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: On Boston Summit organization and delegation [was Re: A question to candidates]
Hi Jeff, all, Jeff Waugh wrote: quote who=Jeff Waugh quote who=Ghee Teo Have the board paused and thought why the Summit has to be Boston? Is it because most hackers work around Boston? May be it was the case. Because there's a critical mass of developers there -- most of both the Red Hat and Novell desktop teams. Dan Winship points out on IRC that while this was true when the Boston Summit was created, there aren't a lot of Novell desktop hackers left in Boston these days. Perhaps a roaming Columbus Day weekend conference (still in the USA) would be a good thing? Just a note... I can probably find some good space at the University of Toronto (Canada) if it was ever required. It is generally easier for folks in some countries (like China, and Russia) to get visas to come here, and it is a cheap flight for Bostonians. There is a Red Hat office here, not sure about other GNOMEy elements. cheers, David ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Question to candidates: what about next ODF?
Hello, One question to candidates: Wil you promote the Foundation's participation on the reviewing of ODF? I'm sure it won't be for lack of a sponsor, but I think it is much more important to the Free Software world to have a true Open Standard for office documents, regardless of MS OOXML's outcome, and I hope the Foundation will help make sure the users of GNOME can use the next version of ODF with GNOME based Free Software. Thanks, Rui -- Or is it? Today is Boomtime, the 40th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3173 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Question to candidates: what about next ODF?
On Wed, 2007-11-28 at 21:34 +, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: Hello, One question to candidates: Wil you promote the Foundation's participation on the reviewing of ODF? I think it is a no brainier that we should support review of any version of ODF. That being said it would be up to someone within the community to step forward and say they needed help from the foundation to participate in the review. The foundation may wish to actively seek out someone appropriate to do so also but I don't see it being a problem finding someone to volunteer. However, the question is overly broad. The foundation itself is not going to be helping define the next ODF but should support community members who wish to join any steering committee provided the member is appropriate and committed for such a task. -- John (J5) Palmieri [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Question to candidates: what about next ODF?
On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 06:23:57PM -0500, Jody Goldberg wrote: On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 09:34:54PM +, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: Hello, One question to candidates: Wil you promote the Foundation's participation on the reviewing of ODF? I'm sure it won't be for lack of a sponsor, but I think it is much more important to the Free Software world to have a true Open Standard for office documents, regardless of MS OOXML's outcome, and I hope the Foundation will help make sure the users of GNOME can use the next version of ODF with GNOME based Free Software. I don't see how the foundation can 'make sure' of anything in this instance. It can not force developers towards or away from either spec. That is simply not in it's mandate. I may be being obtuse, but what's not in it's mandate for ODF but is for OOXML? Or am I reading your words wrong? We all appear to agree that implementing ODF is good for FLOSS. However, beyond that there's no stick, and a carrot (eg funding) seems inappropriate (why this project vs the dozens of others). Or one another in particular? For a fake standard, there is funding? The board has offered to try and facilitate a membership in OASIS for an interested candidate. The will is there, but like so much else we're short on man power. We'd welcome patches to improve the ODF exporter in Gnumeric or abiword. I'd prefer to be spending my time coding to these endless discussions of ISO-tactics. I think I might have missed this, where is it? I can't seem to find it, but it's late here and my googling skills may be already too hampered... Rui -- Kallisti! Today is Pungenday, the 41st day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3173 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Question to candidates: what about next ODF?
On Nov 28, 2007 7:15 PM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't see how the foundation can 'make sure' of anything in this instance. It can not force developers towards or away from either spec. That is simply not in it's mandate. I may be being obtuse, but what's not in it's mandate for ODF but is for OOXML? Or am I reading your words wrong? Yes, you are. :) He means that we can't force anyone to do anything. In the OOXML case, someone came to the board and volunteered, and the board helped out. There was no mandate there. Similarly, if someone came and volunteered to work on ODF, the board would (presumably) seek to join the relevant standards bodies so that that volunteer could participate. But we can't force anyone to go do that work for us. We all appear to agree that implementing ODF is good for FLOSS. However, beyond that there's no stick, and a carrot (eg funding) seems inappropriate (why this project vs the dozens of others). Or one another in particular? For a fake standard, there is funding? What funding? No one is paying Jody to do what he does on OOXML; again, he is a volunteer, doing things voluntarily. If someone were to volunteer for ODF, the board would facilitate it. But the board isn't going to pay anyone to work on either standard. Luis ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: two questions for candidates
Right on, but you could make sure not only geeks noticed the many poison pills of OOXML. This discussion is an evident proof one of the poison pills is getting at people. This discussion is not about supporting OOXML. The discussion is about how to prevent OOXML from becoming an ISO standard, which would enable Microsoft to present it as an open standard and help it win a major battle against our community. No one has suggested that we should do this in a dishonest way. However, honesty does not require pretending that Microsoft is honest. It also does not judging OOXML in a half-blind way based solely on the technical aspects of the spec. The many flaws (technical and legal) in OOXML are real problems because they make it hard, or dangerous, to support OOXML in free software. By contrast, if ODF has a few technical flaws, they don't matter much, because its principal implementation is already free software. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME dependent on Mono
El mié, 28-11-2007 a las 20:03 -0500, Richard Stallman escribió: However, making GNOME depend on Mono is running a grave risk, and a grave mistake. If the article accurately describes the situation, I think we need to launch a high-priority project to reimplement Yelp in some other language. I am not an expert in this area, but I know how to use apt: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/bison-bf$ apt-cache depends libbeagle0 libbeagle0 Depende: libc6 Depende: libglib2.0-0 Depende: libxml2 Sorry to spoil the fun, but I think that libbeagle is a C library. Claudio -- Claudio Saavedra [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Question to candidates: what about next ODF?
quote who=Gregory Leblanc While this is all technically true, I think it's somewhat misleading, based on my recollections, and what I could find in a brief browse of the mailing list archives. There was much clearer leadership in the community then, but I do not believe that the community came to a conclusion that we would cede development of a GNOME office to OpenOffice.org. My impression of what happened was more that the community never got a cohesive and self-sustaining effort going to make a GNOME Office suite happen. It certainly wasn't a consensus, or a clear decision, but the energy of popular thought in the community along with decreased investment led to us ceding our office/productivity leadership at the time to OpenOffice.org. We were actually well ahead, but OpenOffice.org had the weight of existing features, code and commercial interest. Thinking about it in those terms, I regret it even more. - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2008: Melbourne, Australiahttp://lca2008.linux.org.au/ Spam is about consent, not content. - Craig Sanders ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Question to candidates: what about next ODF?
On Thu, Nov 29, 2007 at 12:15:11AM +, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 06:23:57PM -0500, Jody Goldberg wrote: On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 09:34:54PM +, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: and I hope the Foundation will help make sure the users of GNOME can use the next version of ODF I don't see how the foundation can 'make sure' of anything in this instance. It can not force developers towards or away from either spec. That is simply not in it's mandate. I may be being obtuse, but what's not in it's mandate for ODF but is for OOXML? Or am I reading your words wrong? I will try to be clearer. The foundation can not force the developers to implement or not to implement. It has no control of the members. Specificly, the foundation can not require that - People implement MOOX - People not implement MOOX - People implement ODF - People not implement ODF There is no difference in the situation between ODF, MOOX, or any other technology. By design, neither the foundation nor the board has enforcement capabilities. We all appear to agree that implementing ODF is good for FLOSS. However, beyond that there's no stick, and a carrot (eg funding) seems inappropriate (why this project vs the dozens of others). Or one another in particular? For a fake standard, there is funding? I have no idea what you are talking about. No money has been spent, nor will any money be spent joining ECMA. As we've stated on numerous occasions the foundation is a non-profit entity and was given a _FREE_ _NON-VOTING_ membership. The board has offered to try and facilitate a membership in OASIS for an interested candidate. The will is there, but like so much else we're short on man power. We'd welcome patches to improve the ODF exporter in Gnumeric or abiword. I'd prefer to be spending my time coding to these endless discussions of ISO-tactics. I think I might have missed this, where is it? I can't seem to find it, but it's late here and my googling skills may be already too hampered... It == Gnumeric ODF support ? http://svn.gnome.org/viewvc/gnumeric/trunk/plugins/openoffice/ It == Joining OASIS ? It's been mentioned numerous times in various forums. Indeed when we first mentioned that I would be joining ECMA it was discussed that it would be good to get an OASIS membership too. If you (or anyone else) is interested talk to the board. That is all it takes. I'd love to do it, but the weekly meetings are too much of a commitment at this point. My day job is not paying me to take part in standards organizations or FLOSS. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Question to candidates: what about next ODF?
Hey, On 11/28/07, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, One question to candidates: Wil you promote the Foundation's participation on the reviewing of ODF? Why won't we?. It's on the interest of or community to promote free standards, free software and if we can help by reviewing it and helping to make it better and more bullet proof, then let's just do it! :). I'm sure it won't be for lack of a sponsor, but I think it is much more important to the Free Software world to have a true Open Standard for office documents, regardless of MS OOXML's outcome, and I hope the Foundation will help make sure the users of GNOME can use the next version of ODF with GNOME based Free Software. The OOXML issue is already explained, someone volunteered for helping nuking MS's standard so we can get as much info as we can and make the problems of their stuff more evident. Jody's participation is -in my very humble opinion- anything but bad. He's probably made MS people throw one or two chairs through the window with his questions. I think Luis has replied you very clearly. No one's paying no one and Jody's participation is totally voluntary, if someone would stand up and want to help with ODF, I don't see a reason to oppose to the board helping them to participate. We all love free software as much as you, we wouldn't do anything to harm it. Greetings! Diego ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
