Re: Code of Conduct and Foundation membership
I don't believe Frederic was pointing at Miguel. There are people who have left the Gnome community working on products that don't use any Gnome technology posting blog post/ads for said product on PGO. I wonder whether these products are free software. If not, they certainly shouldn't promote them on Planet GNOME. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Code of Conduct and Foundation membership
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 6:49 PM, Richard Stallman r...@gnu.org wrote: I don't believe Frederic was pointing at Miguel. There are people who have left the Gnome community working on products that don't use any Gnome technology posting blog post/ads for said product on PGO. I wonder whether these products are free software. If not, they certainly shouldn't promote them on Planet GNOME. I think we are mashing together a bunch of issues. So, in effect, are we looking for: [0] a way to measure what could be appropriate content for Planet GNOME [1] a way to prevent non-free or equivalent software being marketed via the Planet [2] a way to handle the consequences if there is either inappropriate content [3] a way to handle the consequences if there is a pitch for software that is orthogonal to GNOME values I can certainly agree to the need to have a Code of Conduct, communities have one, either implicit or, explicit. But, unless there is a clearly delineated process to handle the exceptions, a Code of Conduct is just a document. -- sankarshan mukhopadhyay http://sankarshan.randomink.org/blog ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Code of Conduct and Foundation membership
Le 08/12/2009 16:08, sankarshan a écrit : 2009/12/8 Pierre-Luc Beaudoinpierre-...@pierlux.com: On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 03:23 -0500, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: But I find it interesting to know, say, what Miguel is up to these days. I don't think it's just me... I don't believe Frederic was pointing at Miguel. There are people who have left the Gnome community working on products that don't use any Gnome technology posting blog post/ads for said product on PGO. [0] Unless specific names are pointed out to the Board or, on this list, the shadow boxing will be more harmful So, let's start (this is list done quickly by me and I haven't contacted anybody from it), as basis: - Robert Love - Christopher Blizzard - Miguel De Icaza - Nat Friedman - Daniel Veillard - Edd Dumbill - Glynn Foster - James Henstridge - Jeff Waugh - Mark McLoughlin - Scott James Remnant [1] How does one define that they have left the GNOME community ? this list is based on people either no longer blogging at all or not blogging about GNOME and not being active in GNOME. I don't have any problem about people who blogs about non-political oriented things in their life, as long as GNOME is one of those things... I'm not even sure I should still be on Planet GNOME (even if I'm release team member), since most of my posts aren't about GNOME but about the distribution I work on. And I sometime feels those posts could be seen as propaganda for my distribution. Regarding what bedhad said, nothing prevent people to read those people blog outside Planet GNOME (like Planet Mono or anything else). -- Frederic Crozat Mandriva ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Code of Conduct and Foundation membership
On Wed, 2009-12-09 at 08:19 -0500, Richard Stallman wrote: I don't believe Frederic was pointing at Miguel. There are people who have left the Gnome community working on products that don't use any Gnome technology posting blog post/ads for said product on PGO. I wonder whether these products are free software. If not, they certainly shouldn't promote them on Planet GNOME. Nonsense. The people who work at VmWare also very often posted (and still post) about their work and appear on Planet GNOME. There's nothing wrong with that. Same goes for Nokia and many other companies involved. Forbidding those contributors to talk about their work goes directly and philosophically against the Planet GNOME is a window into the world, work and lives of GNOME hackers and contributors slogan of the project. You see that word work there? Right. -- Philip Van Hoof, freelance software developer home: me at pvanhoof dot be gnome: pvanhoof at gnome dot org http://pvanhoof.be/blog http://codeminded.be ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Code of Conduct and Foundation membership
On Wed, 2009-12-09 at 14:27 +0100, Frederic Crozat wrote: So, let's start (this is list done quickly by me and I haven't contacted anybody from it), as basis: - Robert Love - Christopher Blizzard - Miguel De Icaza - Nat Friedman - Daniel Veillard - Edd Dumbill - Glynn Foster - James Henstridge - Jeff Waugh - Mark McLoughlin - Scott James Remnant Many of these people are and have been top GNOME people. You'd be insane if you wanted to remove them from the planet. If you want to destroy GNOME as a community, you're on the right track. [1] How does one define that they have left the GNOME community ? this list is based on people either no longer blogging at all or not blogging about GNOME and not being active in GNOME. I don't have any problem about people who blogs about non-political oriented things in their life, as long as GNOME is one of those things... I'm not even sure I should still be on Planet GNOME (even if I'm release team member), since most of my posts aren't about GNOME but about the distribution I work on. And I sometime feels those posts could be seen as propaganda for my distribution. This is nonsense. The planet-gnome slogan is: Planet GNOME is __ a window into the world, work and lives __ of GNOME hackers and contributors. This is what made the planet a successful project, initiated by Jeff Waugh (who you propose for removal ^). If you want to fundamentally change the planet, why don't you start your own planet and convince the world that yours is better? Regarding what bedhad said, nothing prevent people to read those people blog outside Planet GNOME (like Planet Mono or anything else). Nothing prevents you from starting your own planet. I'm pretty sure that you can even get a neat subdomain under GNOME's from the admins. -- Philip Van Hoof, freelance software developer home: me at pvanhoof dot be gnome: pvanhoof at gnome dot org http://pvanhoof.be/blog http://codeminded.be ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Code of Conduct and Foundation membership
I don't agree at all with the current direction of the discussion. For me, pgo is about people. Yes, I'm interested to learn that Nat will soon get married. Yes, I'm interested to hear about Mandriva on Frédéric's posts because I don't use it at all but at least I keep an eye on it thanks to his blog. Even the mono-bashism of Miguel is sometimes interesting : it allows me to know what is happening when I want to know. I like to practise my Dutch by reading Reinout's post and to see if UTF-8 works correctly when seeing Indian's poems. I'm happy to meet a fellow GNOME developer at FOSDEM and saying : So, you like Karaté/Running/Vegan Cooking ?. I know some planets that choose to have a code of conduct about what should be posted or not (like planet Ubuntu-f or planet-libre.org). They all ended by not selecting the people on a quality basis but selecting posts that respect the subject of the planet. It results in very-low quality planet, not interesting and, more importantly, without any soul, any spirit. Planet.gnome has a spirit. There's something (called it soul if you want). Don't break it. Remember planet.climate-change joke? That was huge and enjoyable. My solution is the following : - Each GNOME member should be able to add his feed to pgo. He might want to change his feed whenever he wants to take a more specialized one or not. - Each year, a mail is sent to those member asking if they want to stay on pgo and if they consider themselves still on-topic. But don't clean whiter than white. There's always off-topic stuffs or stuff you don't want to read. Just don't read them. Richard don't want to read stuffs about Mono? I understand, it's his choice and I respect it. He's not forced to read them. GNOME is about people. Sometimes, people are doing other stuffs than free software coding (aren't you?). When I'm at work, I often talk with co-worker about sports, about what I will eat tonight. When I go to #gnome-hackers, often the discussion is completely off-topic. Last night, on #gtg, I discussed about chocolates with someone arguing that there's good chocolate in Italy (can you believe that?). It was fun. I'm in GNOME because it's fun. GNOME is fun. PGO is fun. Please, please, please, keep the fun. World is collapsing? It's doing that for 2.000.000 years already! So, keep the fun… Lionel On Wed, 09 Dec 2009 14:27:43 +0100, Frederic Crozat fcro...@mandriva.com wrote: Le 08/12/2009 16:08, sankarshan a écrit : 2009/12/8 Pierre-Luc Beaudoinpierre-...@pierlux.com: On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 03:23 -0500, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: But I find it interesting to know, say, what Miguel is up to these days. I don't think it's just me... I don't believe Frederic was pointing at Miguel. There are people who have left the Gnome community working on products that don't use any Gnome technology posting blog post/ads for said product on PGO. [0] Unless specific names are pointed out to the Board or, on this list, the shadow boxing will be more harmful So, let's start (this is list done quickly by me and I haven't contacted anybody from it), as basis: - Robert Love - Christopher Blizzard - Miguel De Icaza - Nat Friedman - Daniel Veillard - Edd Dumbill - Glynn Foster - James Henstridge - Jeff Waugh - Mark McLoughlin - Scott James Remnant [1] How does one define that they have left the GNOME community ? this list is based on people either no longer blogging at all or not blogging about GNOME and not being active in GNOME. I don't have any problem about people who blogs about non-political oriented things in their life, as long as GNOME is one of those things... I'm not even sure I should still be on Planet GNOME (even if I'm release team member), since most of my posts aren't about GNOME but about the distribution I work on. And I sometime feels those posts could be seen as propaganda for my distribution. Regarding what bedhad said, nothing prevent people to read those people blog outside Planet GNOME (like Planet Mono or anything else). ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Code of Conduct and Foundation membership
On Wed, 2009-12-09 at 14:07 +, Ciaran O'Riordan wrote: about their work and appear on Planet GNOME. There's nothing wrong with that. Same goes for Nokia and many other companies involved. I wonder if there's a misunderstanding here. No one said that companies shouldn't be allowed to post. Richard said that Planet GNOME shouldn't be used to promote non-free software (i.e. software that denies freedom by witholding source code or witholding permission to use/modify/distribute). This means some software from Nokia shouldn't be promoted on Planet GNOME, but Nokia (like many other companies) also develops and distributes lots of free software. No one's objecting to promoting Nokia's work on free software for GNOME. That's why I wrote talk about their work. There's no misunderstanding. Mentioning that they are using some piece of LGPL software to build a closed source component is fine. Personally I most definitely want to know about such things. As for what Miguel works on (to go back to the origin of the proposal): The vast majority of what he's blogging and working on *is* free and/or opensource software or about free and/or opensource software being used in the field. Making it forbidden to use planet-gnome for that is like wanting to deny a reality. If GNOME wants to be relevant, it must not boycott reality. -- Philip Van Hoof, freelance software developer home: me at pvanhoof dot be gnome: pvanhoof at gnome dot org http://pvanhoof.be/blog http://codeminded.be ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Code of Conduct and Foundation membership
On 12/09/2009 09:07 AM, Ciaran O'Riordan wrote: about their work and appear on Planet GNOME. There's nothing wrong with that. Same goes for Nokia and many other companies involved. I wonder if there's a misunderstanding here. No one said that companies shouldn't be allowed to post. Richard said that Planet GNOME shouldn't be used to promote non-free software (i.e. software that denies freedom by witholding source code or witholding permission to use/modify/distribute). But mono *is* Free Software according to the FSF definition! behdad ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Code of Conduct and Foundation membership
On 12/09/2009 08:48 AM, Lionel Dricot wrote: I don't agree at all with the current direction of the discussion. For me, pgo is about people. Yes, I'm interested to learn that Nat will soon get married. Yes, I'm interested to hear about Mandriva on Frédéric's posts because I don't use it at all but at least I keep an eye on it thanks to his blog. Even the mono-bashism of Miguel is sometimes interesting : it allows me to know what is happening when I want to know. I like to practise my Dutch by reading Reinout's post and to see if UTF-8 works correctly when seeing Indian's poems. I'm happy to meet a fellow GNOME developer at FOSDEM and saying : So, you like Karaté/Running/Vegan Cooking ?. I know some planets that choose to have a code of conduct about what should be posted or not (like planet Ubuntu-f or planet-libre.org). They all ended by not selecting the people on a quality basis but selecting posts that respect the subject of the planet. It results in very-low quality planet, not interesting and, more importantly, without any soul, any spirit. Planet.gnome has a spirit. There's something (called it soul if you want). Don't break it. Remember planet.climate-change joke? That was huge and enjoyable. EXACTLY. EXACTLY. EXACTLY. My solution is the following : - Each GNOME member should be able to add his feed to pgo. He might want to change his feed whenever he wants to take a more specialized one or not. - Each year, a mail is sent to those member asking if they want to stay on pgo and if they consider themselves still on-topic. Lets limit it to a reminder that you're on PGO. if you want to be removed, email xxx if we have to do something like that. behdad But don't clean whiter than white. There's always off-topic stuffs or stuff you don't want to read. Just don't read them. Richard don't want to read stuffs about Mono? I understand, it's his choice and I respect it. He's not forced to read them. GNOME is about people. Sometimes, people are doing other stuffs than free software coding (aren't you?). When I'm at work, I often talk with co-worker about sports, about what I will eat tonight. When I go to #gnome-hackers, often the discussion is completely off-topic. Last night, on #gtg, I discussed about chocolates with someone arguing that there's good chocolate in Italy (can you believe that?). It was fun. I'm in GNOME because it's fun. GNOME is fun. PGO is fun. Please, please, please, keep the fun. World is collapsing? It's doing that for 2.000.000 years already! So, keep the fun… Lionel On Wed, 09 Dec 2009 14:27:43 +0100, Frederic Crozatfcro...@mandriva.com wrote: Le 08/12/2009 16:08, sankarshan a écrit : 2009/12/8 Pierre-Luc Beaudoinpierre-...@pierlux.com: On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 03:23 -0500, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: But I find it interesting to know, say, what Miguel is up to these days. I don't think it's just me... I don't believe Frederic was pointing at Miguel. There are people who have left the Gnome community working on products that don't use any Gnome technology posting blog post/ads for said product on PGO. [0] Unless specific names are pointed out to the Board or, on this list, the shadow boxing will be more harmful So, let's start (this is list done quickly by me and I haven't contacted anybody from it), as basis: - Robert Love - Christopher Blizzard - Miguel De Icaza - Nat Friedman - Daniel Veillard - Edd Dumbill - Glynn Foster - James Henstridge - Jeff Waugh - Mark McLoughlin - Scott James Remnant [1] How does one define that they have left the GNOME community ? this list is based on people either no longer blogging at all or not blogging about GNOME and not being active in GNOME. I don't have any problem about people who blogs about non-political oriented things in their life, as long as GNOME is one of those things... I'm not even sure I should still be on Planet GNOME (even if I'm release team member), since most of my posts aren't about GNOME but about the distribution I work on. And I sometime feels those posts could be seen as propaganda for my distribution. Regarding what bedhad said, nothing prevent people to read those people blog outside Planet GNOME (like Planet Mono or anything else). ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Code of Conduct and Foundation membership
Le mer. 09 déc. 2009 à 14:45:55 (+0100), Philip Van Hoof a écrit: This is nonsense. The planet-gnome slogan is: Planet GNOME is __ a window into the world, work and lives __ of GNOME hackers and contributors. This is what made the planet a successful project, initiated by Jeff Waugh (who you propose for removal ^). The way I understand what Frédéric said is, there is an (yet another one?) interesting question not answered by the p.g.o slogan. What does the planet maintainers do with people who stop being involved in the project. Sometimes people who are not anymore active in a project declare clearly that they are no longer willing to be involved because of x,y,z reason. That's the easy situation. But what happens when nothing is said? Maybe this question is worth examining. I think it's a tough question because it hard to not make it become an emotionnal topic. In any case, if the answer is People who were once involved keep their related attributes ad vitam eternam, we must say it clearly to avoid this confusion. If you want to fundamentally change the planet, why don't you start your own planet and convince the world that yours is better? To me, saying this is just like saying go die elsewhere, I don't want to listen to you. I don't think trying to fix what mostly works already is necessarily fundamentally a bad thing. Nobody is asking you to agree, but it can be interesting nonetheless to let people expose their opinion without asking them to shut up, basically. Dodji ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Code of Conduct and Foundation membership
On 12/09/2009 01:47 PM, Dodji Seketeli wrote: The way I understand what Frédéric said is, there is an (yet another one?) interesting question not answered by the p.g.o slogan. What does the planet maintainers do with people who stop being involved in the project. Sometimes people who are not anymore active in a project declare clearly that they are no longer willing to be involved because of x,y,z reason. That's the easy situation. But what happens when nothing is said? So, I'm still syndicated on Monologue even though I haven't blogged anything about Mono since July 2006. I wouldn't care if they kicked me off, but I've never felt compelled to actually figure out how to make that happen on my own. Assuming there are other people who behave like that, it's entirely possible that if we just sent mail to everyone on PGO once a year saying Hi, you're on PGO, we just want to make sure you still want to be. If you don't want to be there any more, just let us know that this would get rid of some of the extra-crufty people. -- Dan ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
END OF THREAD PLEASE (was: Code of Conduct and Foundation membership)
On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 12:48:45PM +, Lucas Rocha wrote: Before deciding on this, we thought it would be useful to get some feedback from the community. Seems thread is becoming 1) heated 2) repeating So, see subject. -- Regards, Olav ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Code of Conduct and Foundation membership
On Wed, 2009-12-09 at 13:32 -0500, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: On 12/09/2009 08:48 AM, Lionel Dricot wrote: I know some planets that choose to have a code of conduct about what should be posted or not (like planet Ubuntu-f or planet-libre.org). They all ended by not selecting the people on a quality basis but selecting posts that respect the subject of the planet. It results in very-low quality planet, not interesting and, more importantly, without any soul, any spirit. Planet.gnome has a spirit. There's something (called it soul if you want). Don't break it. Remember planet.climate-change joke? That was huge and enjoyable. EXACTLY. EXACTLY. EXACTLY. EXACTLY +1, and a big whatever - Each year, a mail is sent to those member asking if they want to stay on pgo and if they consider themselves still on-topic. Lets limit it to a reminder that you're on PGO. if you want to be removed, email xxx if we have to do something like that. I fully agree with this solution. Thanks, behdad. You hereby have my vote and support for next board elections. As usual. Because you're one of the few people who's pragmatic and realistic to earn my vote. Not one of those crazy people. Sorry for being direct. It's just my personality. Thank you. Let's now go back to solving some real problems in GNOME. -- Philip Van Hoof, freelance software developer home: me at pvanhoof dot be gnome: pvanhoof at gnome dot org http://pvanhoof.be/blog http://codeminded.be ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Code of Conduct and Foundation membership
Is it possible to provide filters so that people who are interested in different types of blog entries can focus on what is interesting to them? This could be a useful feature for many reasons, but it doesn't address the issue of articles that grant legitimacy to non-free software. The presence of articles discussing vmware, for instance, conveys the message that GNOME sees nothing wrong with it. Unless we can count on all readers to filter those articles out, the filters don't deal with the issue. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Code of Conduct and Foundation membership
The people who work at VmWare also very often posted (and still post) about their work and appear on Planet GNOME. They should not do this, unless VmWare becomes free software. GNOME should not provide proprietary software developers with a platform to present non-free software as a good or legitimate thing. Perhaps the statement of Planet GNOME's philosophy should be interpreted differently. It should not invite people to talk about their proprietary software projects just because they are also GNOME contributors. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Code of Conduct and Foundation membership
Richard said that Planet GNOME shouldn't be used to promote non-free software (i.e. software that denies freedom by witholding source code or witholding permission to use/modify/distribute). But mono *is* Free Software according to the FSF definition! Yes, it is. There's nothing wrong with Mono itself. What we need to be careful of is depending on C#. (See http://www.fsf.org/news/dont-depend-on-mono.) ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
