Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On Fri, 2010-06-25 at 11:21 +0200, Patryk Zawadzki wrote: It would be better if GNOME defined a precise set of rules (ie. don't mention religion). And you might know - I rather liked Lefty's random talk on his buddhist pilgrimage at the last GUADEC, but Aaron's bacon-fest horribly offended my sensibilities [ or something ], and as for Miguel's historic Unix Sucks talk, it's hard to know where to begin un-twisting myself ;-) [or perhaps not]. As for the hazy areas, common sense is a better judge than a set of written rules. If someone does something grossly inappropriate just don't invite them to further events. Quite; this is ultimately the best sanction; I assume it has been silently applied against the most egregious offenders, as it always has been. I'm sure lots of people worked very hard on trying to come up with a sane sounding policy ( and it does seem fairly mild - the punishment AFAIR being a very hard stare ;-). But it does seem a little silly to need a policy at all. Ultimately, I guess we need to accept and live with the fact that ~everyone is unbalanced in some way, and has some or other noxiously offensive opinion, and perhaps provide some interactive booing hissing / sharp questions from the audience at times ;-) Regards, Michael. -- michael.me...@novell.com , Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 12:39 AM, Lefty (石鏡 ) le...@shugendo.org wrote: On 6/25/10 8:30 AM, Patryk Zawadzki pat...@pld-linux.org wrote: I bet at least one person in the audience is offended when they see the presenter using a Mac. Or sporting a Windows t-shirt. Or using an iPod. Or mentioning that Apple did something better than GNOME. Security, seize and escort the speaker out of the building. :) By the way: I would certainly recommend that anyone who's offended by a presenter using a Mac, wearing a Windows t-shirt, or both at the same time, to take their concerns directly and immediately to the Board of Directors. I would suggest that the Board of Directors tell them to Get a grip. Is it _that_ difficult to distinguish between the sort of offense that someone like Celeste Lyn Paul, a KDE board member, expressed when she wrote ( http://identi.ca/notice/6304540)... Do men really think RMSs virgin joke at #gcds was not sexist? Very disappointed in FLOSS comm chatter about this. I'd say it was more stupid than sexist. He planned it to be a religious joke but ended up with a pile of crap. ...on the one hand, and the offense that someone who feels a speaker is not being pure enough, or something, by using a non-free-software- movement-approved piece of hardware, or wearing a t-shirt bearing the logo of a non-free-software-movement-approved company, on the other? Do you see no distinction between the two, Patryk? Are you trying to start a flame war, or are you just bored? Stop trying to convince me that I'm defending bad behavior as I'm not. I said the rules were too vague to be considered a policy. A person hating Mono or C# is just as covered as a person who is a target of racist comments. That's why the rules are bad. I'd add that if GNOME as a community needs a written don't be a total jerk policy, we should probably consider going to circus instead of the conferences ;) (rest of quotes removed to put out the flames) -- Patryk Zawadzki ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
The GNOME speaker guidelines were at least partly a reaction to my Saint IGNUcius comedy routine. So if I don't have a beef with these guidelines, why should anyone else? I am proud of my Saint IGNUcius routine. Thousands of people have laughed at it. The routine makes fun of people, especially Emacs users, but does not insult or attack anyone, not even Emacs users. It doesn't advocate doing anything to people by force -- not even teaching them Emacs (which is how one loses Emacs virginity). I don't think there's anything bad about it. But it does refer to sex and religion. If GNOME would rather not have such humor in its events, I can go along with that. If the community wants these guidelines, I support them. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On 6/26/10 7:09 AM, Richard Stallman r...@gnu.org wrote: The GNOME speaker guidelines were at least partly a reaction to my Saint IGNUcius comedy routine. So if I don't have a beef with these guidelines, why should anyone else? Good question. It seems some folks are intent on defending you, whether you're looking for defense or not. I've had a bunch of 'em email my managers, our clients, and uninvolved members of my family, over my disagreements on this issue. You may recall that I wrote you privately about this about three months ago, and you saw no problem with it at the time, but perhaps you've reconsidered that. Asking them to knock it off seems reasonable to me, certainly. I am proud of my Saint IGNUcius routine. I am, in all honesty, sorry to hear that. I feel that's a shame, myself. Thousands of people have laughed at it. Keen student of world history that you are, you're surely aware that tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, laughed (and cheered and applauded) at each and every beheading conducted during the Reign of Terror. I guess by this metric, if a speaker wants to throw in a guillotining or two, well, why not? As long as people laugh, right? The routine makes fun of people, especially Emacs users, but does not insult or attack anyone, not even Emacs users. As I've shown, opinions varied. Celeste Lyn Paul felt insulted. Chani Armitage felt more at risk of being attacked. I felt offended. Thanks for making it clear that our various feelings in this matter were in fact groundless, and should not be considered as being material to, or indicative of, anything. See, from where I was sitting, the routine _seemed_ to be making fun of women in particular as some sort of technical ignorami, helplessly waiting around for some big, strong _male_ hacker to explain to them the wonders of EMACS. Surely, virginity is a small, even insignificant, thing to trade for some awesome knowledge and power. It's easy to see why such a message would achieve a level of popularity with your typical FLOSS community conference audience. By the same token, I personally _believed_ (mistakenly, apparently) that I could well imagine why a woman in attendance, outnumbered by men at perhaps a ratio of 40-to-1, might be made just a _wee_ bit uncomfortable by that notion. Evidently, however, that's a lot harder for yourself, and others, to envisage, thus conclusively demonstrating my (and Celeste's, and Chani's, and Matt's, and Matthew's, and Andre's, and Sandy's, and...) error in this matter. It doesn't advocate doing anything to people by force -- not even teaching them Emacs (which is how one loses Emacs virginity). Well, see? That's why I keep asking for a handout. I've never heard of relieving a woman's virginity through teaching her how to use a 40-year-old text editor. I'm also unclear how a unilateral Holy Duty to impose something, anything, on some nonconsenting other doesn't amount to doing something by force. As I've said, I was taught to always say, May I? first. There was no mention of anything like that at GCDS. Just your Holy Duty. I don't think there's anything bad about it. I'd intuited that, yes. Again, a shame, in my view. But it does refer to sex and religion. Well, at least we're on the same page there. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
One _Final_ Comment (Seriously)
I'm actually pretty bored by the completely futile rehashing of the same ground on this matter, over and over, to no resolution. Clearly, RMS will never feel anything other than proud about his ridicule of religion and women. Clearly, Patryk and like-minded others, will never change their minds about the humor of this. Further discussion really _is_ pointless. At GUADEC 2008, in Istanbul, I got into a conversation with Behdad about my impressions of the conference and the city. He liked what I said, and asked me to repeat it, on stage, at the closing of the conference. I spoke about how, in my various travels, I'd never made it to Istanbul before, and how thoroughly different it was from anyplace I'd been previously. I talked about how terrific our hosts had been. Mostly, I talked about how the GNOME community seemed to be a sort of little United Nations, bringing people from vastly different cultures, with very different outlooks, together in love of some common goals. I talked about what a wonderful and amazing thing I thought that was. I would not have been able, in any honesty, to make the same statements last year. I could not, I think, make them this year. The community I see today is not the community I saw then. If anything, the situation for women (and minorities in general) seems to have worsened; there's more discord over silly issues, more hatred, more intransigence, less willingness to live-and-let-live, and vastly greater polarization. There's sprung up a whole contingent of apparently-otherwise-non-participating monomaniacal free software advocates harassing and defaming others over differences of opinion on _software_. I cannot express just how much that saddens me. However, communities get what they ask for. This is what we've asked for, people. == 30 == ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: One _Final_ Comment (Seriously)
On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 5:35 PM, Lefty (石鏡 ) le...@shugendo.org wrote: I'm actually pretty bored by the completely futile rehashing of the same ground on this matter, over and over, to no resolution. Clearly, RMS will never feel anything other than proud about his ridicule of religion and women. Clearly, Patryk and like-minded others, will never change their minds about the humor of this. Further discussion really _is_ pointless. Sorry to say that but now I do feel offended. You're projecting your thoughts and claiming them to be my words. -- Patryk Zawadzki ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
Lefty, 2010/6/26 Lefty (石鏡 ) le...@shugendo.org: Patryk seems to want to continue to pursue this discussion. I hadn't been planning to, after Sriram's message, but since there's an obvious interest... This is not a Lefty vs Patryk debate nor a Lefty vs Richard debate. Please stick to discussing the issues and not attacking people. Your emails and your tone discourage other people from participating in these discussions. Please help us make the Foundation list a welcoming place to discuss GNOME issues. Thanks in advance for your help. Best, Stormy ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
minorities have not had a large role in free software community. So that joke might have worked with a lot of people back then but not so much now. Since you're a celebrity people are willing to probably overlook such things that might normally offend them. Of course the opposite is true as well, because you're a celebrity people might be even more offended depending on how sensitive they feel your role is. Worse unfortunately, because he is a celebrity people will copy what he does and think its 'cool'. Which when it comes to sexist jokes is not what the free software community needs. Richard, remember the freedom to modify code requires the knowledge to do it - which is something you mostly learn and share within that community by being part of it. Driving half of the human race out of that community though behaviour they find obnoxious and threatening isn't just a matter of poor taste, its a direct attack on the very freedoms the FSF and GPL are meant to be about. It's not a question of what the law permits but what is ethically right. Is it ethically right for the leader of the free software movement to drive people away from free software ? We want to replace the proprietary software world with free software for all, not for mostly male, thick skinned folks because everyone else feels unwelcome and threatened - whether for cultural or other reasons. Alan ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Stone Mirror le...@shugendo.org wrote: Again, very well said, and I couldn't agree more. Thank you, Alan. It honestly baffles me that some people seem to have such difficulty grasping what seems so transparently obvious to me. *Stop* making it personal. Stop thanking individuals. Stop insulting others' intelligence. (Saying you agree is one thing. Thanking them like they did you a favor is another.) Stormy ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
Again, very well said, and I couldn't agree more. Thank you, Alan. It honestly baffles me that some people seem to have such difficulty grasping what seems so transparently obvious to me. Maybe it's the training that every single Apple employee was required to take. They got this stuff twenty years ago. _Thirty_ percent of the engineering team I managed at Apple were women. __ Sent from my Steve-Phone On Jun 26, 2010, at 5:19 PM, Alan Cox a...@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk wrote: minorities have not had a large role in free software community. So that joke might have worked with a lot of people back then but not so much now. Since you're a celebrity people are willing to probably overlook such things that might normally offend them. Of course the opposite is true as well, because you're a celebrity people might be even more offended depending on how sensitive they feel your role is. Worse unfortunately, because he is a celebrity people will copy what he does and think its 'cool'. Which when it comes to sexist jokes is not what the free software community needs. Richard, remember the freedom to modify code requires the knowledge to do it - which is something you mostly learn and share within that community by being part of it. Driving half of the human race out of that community though behaviour they find obnoxious and threatening isn't just a matter of poor taste, its a direct attack on the very freedoms the FSF and GPL are meant to be about. It's not a question of what the law permits but what is ethically right. Is it ethically right for the leader of the free software movement to drive people away from free software ? We want to replace the proprietary software world with free software for all, not for mostly male, thick skinned folks because everyone else feels unwelcome and threatened - whether for cultural or other reasons. Alan ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On 6/26/10 5:45 PM, Stormy Peters sto...@gnome.org wrote: On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Stone Mirror le...@shugendo.org wrote: Again, very well said, and I couldn't agree more. Thank you, Alan. It honestly baffles me that some people seem to have such difficulty grasping what seems so transparently obvious to me. *Stop* making it personal. Stop thanking individuals. Stop insulting others' intelligence. (Saying you agree is one thing. Thanking them like they did you a favor is another.) Stormy, at this point, I frankly haven't got the slightest idea what you're talking about. I didn't make _anything_ personal, other than my thanks to Alan. Please stop. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
Don't be obtuse. It is perfectly clear what Stormy is requesting from you. I am new to this community and I'm afraid I see more hostility from you than the people you're castigating for being unwelcoming. Please let's put this argument in the past and focus on how to make Gnome more attractive to more people in future. Jeremy Allison On Jun 26, 2010 6:03 PM, Lefty (石鏡 ) le...@shugendo.org wrote: On 6/26/10 5:45 PM, Stormy Peters sto...@gnome.org wrote: On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Stone Mirror le...@shugendo.org wrote: Again, very well said, and I couldn't agree more. Thank you, Alan. It honestly baffles me that some people seem to have such difficulty grasping what seems so transparently obvious to me. *Stop* making it personal. Stop thanking individuals. Stop insulting others' intelligence. (Saying you agree is one thing. Thanking them like they did you a favor is another.) Stormy, at this point, I frankly haven't got the slightest idea what you're talking about. I didn't make _anything_ personal, other than my thanks to Alan. Please stop. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
