Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
Managing the community... or the community manages? On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 4:07 PM, Sriram Ramkrishna s...@ramkrishna.mewrote: I'm looking for some charismatic, happy GNOME folks who can help engage with our community. We've had a bad run of late with a lot of folks getting the wrong idea of what we're trying to do. I'm looking for some talented folks who can help us engage with the press, on blogs, on mailing lists and explain our vision. Send me some email, I want to hear from you! sri ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list -- Andy Tai, a...@atai.org, Skype: licheng.tai Year 2012 民國101年 自動的精神力是信仰與覺悟 自動的行為力是勞動與技能 ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
On 14 November 2012 10:03, Dave Neary dne...@gnome.org wrote: While I don't quite like the title community managers, I appreciate the role and the sentiment. I agree as well, as a developer I often have desired that someone would coordinate efforts to make our community a better place to contribute to. Would love to see people working inside and outside the GNOME community to do better at communicating our goals, vision, and work. I would hope that this doesn't end up being sit on Google+, Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn, and send happy messages to anyone complaining about GNOME. I think a community manager would have a broader role, as hinted above. Regards, Tomeu Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary, Lyon, France Email: dne...@gnome.org Jabber: nea...@gmail.com __**_ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/**mailman/listinfo/foundation-**listhttps://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME now
I don't really have a clear answer for an all-encompassing vision and roadmap, but I may offer my blog post from this summer as a starting point: http://jeff.ecchi.ca/blog/2012/08/05/staring-into-the-axis-abyss-the-railgun-map/ It tries to frame things from an ecosystem standpoint and the possible reason for the GNOME OS to exist in the first place. Historically speaking, the GNOME (and GNOME OS) vision has always been a little bit fuzzy, due to the very diverse composition of the GNOME community. Coming up with a very clear roadmap for something of such a large scale is not an easy thing. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
Sriram Ramkrishna sri at ramkrishna.me writes: There was nothing more damaging than Company's post which is still quoted even today. Benjamin even today said that nobody refuted his staring at the Abyss post. So his Benjamin's post true? Because people are still talking about it and referencing it. It was gift that continues to keep on giving. What Benjamin posted was totally fine by me, he has a right to air his concerns in public. It is a public project after all. The general response I got to that post was either no response at all, talking behind my back about what what a bad person I am (at least that's what others told me) or - and this was the most concerning response for me - You shouldn't say things like that. And that response came multiple times from very different GNOME contributors. So the lesson I learned back then is that rule number 1 about the GNOME project is that you don't talk about the GNOME project. Fwiw, I still don't think Emily should characterize me as break[ing] API’s at random and purposefully ensuring that [..] themes cease to work, but I think she has all the right in the world to do that as long as I get the right to use my choice words to answer to that. I'd rather have her calling me that than nobody saying anything at all. I can understand that their intentions are noble, but the last time someone took their chances we ended up with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNOME#cite_note-6 Fun fact: I didn't know I ended up on Wikipedia (Someone should file a bug against Wordpress' pingback feature). Isn't it discouraged to cite blogs on Wikipedia? [1] :) Benjamin 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Blogs_as_sources ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
What has changed since the initial GNOME 3 release and now ? The software rendering in Mesa improved dramatically and also has some limited ability to use GEM to optimise data paths on certain cards. Is gnome-shell now optimized and usable on said, older hardware ? Some of the problem hardware is quite current. On netbook type devices with Imagination graphics (and thus unaccelerated) for example it's sort of usable but feels sluggish, while other desktops are quite snappy. On the x86 tablet with Imaginationg graphics I have its horrendous (especially when doing 1080p external video) Even on a decent x86 box the inability to run without a compositor is a killer for doing some kinds of graphics work as the latency it adds is sufficient to be painful. If you've got a fast CPU and reasonable but unusupported graphics hardware then it's usable but not great. No idea what Gnome 3 is like on a Raspberry Pi which would be the most useful other guide as its got fairly snappy graphics but naff CPU and relatively limited memory (512MB now) Perhaps what we need is not a person/group of people working for 'good press' and telling people that we have their best interests at heart, but rather a bit more transparency in how we make our You can do all the telling you like. It's the listening and explaining which matters. Alan ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
Sriram Ramkrishna s...@ramkrishna.me wrote: ... Community enthusiasts won't go out there using the 'royal we' without some training. This stuff isn't easy, and it is important that our volunteers understand how to engage in both the GNOME community and the community at large. They will need training on GNOME's vision and purpose. That means, release team, designers, and relevant parties will need to help these volunteers in understanding it before going out there and speaking in our name. I'm having Karen be in charge of us. ... One thing that I've wanted to do for a while is hold regular marketing meetings, where marketing contributors can find out what is happening in the project, so that they can follow up with news posts and articles. This could fit in well with what you are proposing here, and would be a good opportunity for people who want to contribute to get a foot in the door. Allan ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
Hi Tristan, Le jeudi 15 novembre 2012, à 16:56 +0900, Tristan Van Berkom a écrit : On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 4:08 AM, Sriram Ramkrishna s...@ramkrishna.me wrote: The wrong idea of course is that people think we're just removing features for no apparent reason even though for instance fallback mode was never guarantee. We need to correct those misconceptions. Are you saying that a fallback mode was never guaranteed ? I don't think it was guaranteed for the whole GNOME 3 lifecycle (although, I personally believe it might have been nice to do so, but our resources makes it impossible). Keep in mind that when 3.8 will be out next March, it will be nearly two years since the 3.0 relese -- that's quite some time already. [...] Perhaps what we need is not a person/group of people working for 'good press' and telling people that we have their best interests at heart, but rather a bit more transparency in how we make our decisions... reinstating our module proposals might be a good first step towards including the whole community and getting them more involved in decision making again. Did you miss the discussion on desktop-devel-list about the future of the fallback mode [1]? If no, how could it have been made more transparent? To me, the discussion clearly highlighted that there was a problem of manpower to keep maintaining the fallback mode an official part of GNOME, with the quality standards we expect from such an official component. Cheers, Vincent [1] https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2012-October/msg00107.html -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME now
The overarching aspiration behind GNOME 3, in my opinion, is to create a free user experience that is fit for the contemporary world. That means addressing the changing needs of users, as well as changes in hardware. It also means doing better than what we did before: UX design has got a lot better in recent history, and I think the field has become much more competetive. We need to keep up. A rough list of high-level design goals for GNOME 3 might include things like... * Providing a focused, distraction-free, environment * Ensuring that user interfaces are focused and directed towards the task in hand * Creating an experience that puts the user at ease and gives them control * Being compatible with touch interaction, particularly new hybrid devices * Seamless integration with the cloud That's superficial and rather off the top of my head. One thing we obviously need is a new HIG that lays out the design principles in more detail; that's something that I really do want to do. It's just a matter of finding the time. GNOME 3 is still an unfinished project, of course, and there are missing parts of the picture. We are continuing to refine and evolve the core user experience, and it is getting better with every release. 3.6 was a big step up from 3.4, and I'm confident that we can do the same again for 3.8. With each round of iteration and improvement, we get closer to a more effective and stable UI. Another big area is applications. We are working on a new suite of core applications, which are designed in accordance with our high-level goals (cloud integration is a key objective here). That work is ongoing and there are blanks. It is one of the areas where we need the most help right now. Those core applications are serving as a basis for us to evolve our application development platform. We are using them to develop new interface elements and design patterns, which are informing the development of the toolkit. So where is this all going? We're still filling in the gaps in GNOME 3, and we're still refining the user experience. The toolkit and the devoloper platform are coming along for the ride. At some point, I do expect these things to come together. Over the next couple of years, we can expect a stabilised core user experience with a set of integrated, complementary core applications. We can also expect an application developer platform that enables 3rd party developers to make similar applications of their own. At that point, we may well want to draw a line. Maybe we'll have a party? Maybe we'll call it GNOME 4? I think the bigger question right now is whether we can successfully create a framework for a healthy application ecosystem within that time. This is absolutely critical to our future, because it is only with a diverse collection of applications that GNOME will be able to meet peoples' needs. We set out some goals and areas for development back at GUADEC, and which I blogged about shortly afterwards [1]. But this is an area that we have historically struggled to deal with, and it is fair to say that we haven't seen much progress since the summer. Allan [1] http://afaikblog.wordpress.com/2012/08/07/gnome-os/ ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME now
Good points Brian :) I like the last part this advanced UNIX-hacker type does not seem to be the primary user GNOME is focusing on anymore. May I ask you however to try to reply to each question with one sentence if possible so I can create a small overview able chart later? Cheers Seif On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 1:26 AM, Brian Cameron brian.came...@oracle.com wrote: I think one of the most significant challenges for any free desktop that is trying to reach the average user is how to deal with the fact that most people like using computers, tablets, smartphones, etc. to interact with non-free multimedia. Not just viewing movies and listening to music, but also creating content in increasingly collaborative ways. Tools that use non-free technologies like Skype or Vonage are not just popular, but a requirement for many people who pay for such services. How many average people would purchase a device that did not support such tools? Proprietary companies like Apple, Google, and Microsoft coordinate sophisticated agreements with media companies and often go along with nasty DRM agreements required by those who own the rights to popular media. Even some popular artists, like The Beatles, are very controlling about who can access the media they control. If you avoid DRM, you probably have to avoid such popular artists - including pretty much anything released on a DVD. In certain markets, not being able to access non-free media may not be a problem. The device the FedEx employee uses to collect signatures or a Point-of-Sale system might be good examples of devices that do not need much media support. Such markets might be an ideal focus for a free desktop environment that, perhaps naturally, lacks strong DRM support. But, if the average user is the target, how does GNOME plan to provide access to non-free multimedia that the average user tends to access and create? Is the community working to make GNOME attractive to some big company that can negotiate the expensive licenses needed to provide access? Or is GNOME focusing on users who do not have an interest in using, accessing or creating non-free media? Is GNOME just waiting until relevant patents expire and these issue hopefully just go away? I always thought that GNOME more appealed to hacker types because hackers tend to be more agreeable to figuring out how to work in a DRM-free environment. For example, a hacker would likely be more willing to rip their audio in OGG format. But this advanced UNIX-hacker type does not seem to be the primary user GNOME is focusing on anymore. Brian On 11/14/12 11:08 PM, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:10 AM, Seif Lotfy s...@lotfy.com mailto:s...@lotfy.com wrote: Quoting Stormy Peters comment on a recent blog post concerning GNOME: We haven’t shared our vision or our roadmap for the future. Where’s the product going? What problem are we trying to solve? How are we going to do that? Good question. As a member of the board of directors I can't really answer this question at the moment either, without having to organize my thoughts. So many different point of views and ideas in the community that are not well discussed. The first thing that pops up in my head is GNOME OS. But then I am kinda lost. Maybe this is something we need to discuss here on the mailing list. Lets try to answer those 3 questions. What about one sentence per question for a start? I am avoiding a blog post since I am not sure its the best way to reach most of our contributors. For me, it's our byline right? A distraction free desktop. Our designs are all based on being able to write a desktop that allows us to get our work done, multi-task with whatever interruptions that we have in our daily life. Where are we going? Are you talking about development or user land? What do other people think? sri Cheers Seif ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org mailto:foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME now
Seif: On 11/15/12 03:31 AM, Seif Lotfy wrote: Good points Brian :) I like the last part this advanced UNIX-hacker type does not seem to be the primary user GNOME is focusing on anymore. For better or worse, I would say that most Solaris GNOME users probably fall either in the advanced UNIX-hacker category, or the type of user who uses a Solaris GNOME desktop in a very focused or controlled environment such as a kiosk or call center environment. So, the desktop on Solaris seems to be increasingly diverging from the needs of the GNOME community. But I think the GNOME community has been conscious that platforms like Solaris were being left behind as decisions were being made. May I ask you however to try to reply to each question with one sentence if possible so I can create a small overview able chart I have difficulty answering Stormy's 3 questions because I do my GNOME work on Solaris, and Solaris desktop products are not well served by the new OpenGL and Linux-focused directions that the GNOME product is taking. I had been struggling to keep GNOME 3 working on Solaris, but that work fell to the wayside as it became clear that Fallback mode is going away. I imagine that you are probably looking for answers from people more engaged with current development, and not people like me. If I were try to answer the questions, I guess I would say: 1. Where's the product going? In directions that make it less and less useful on Solaris. 2. What problem are we trying to solve? The future of the Solaris desktop. 3. How are we going to do that? Not sure. Hopefully this will become more clear over time. For example, maybe Solaris desktop products will support OpenGL at some point in the future. Collaboration could become easier at that time. --- Brian ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME now
T , 2012.11.14. 17:10 +0100, Seif Lotfy rakstīja: Quoting Stormy Peters comment on a recent blog post concerning GNOME: We haven’t shared our vision or our roadmap for the future. Where’s the product going? What problem are we trying to solve? How are we going to do that? I think we are in same business as Apple - we are trying to offer unified user experience. Difference between us and Apple though is that (in my opinion) most of us strongly believe that openness/freedom and consistent user experience (trough user interface and system design and behavior) can be in same boat (versus Walled garden and guided experience). I think we can all agree that's our vision. Practically it comes out as default set of design and settings. Users are free to extend it with extensions, different themes, changing settings, etc. And there are users who won't change a thing - and that's fine too. We care about both kind of users. Yet we care a *little* more about first set of users because they are not that experienced and they usually want just the job done. In one sentence, we are trying to provide computer environment in which every human being can work with. Computer for humans. Sounds trivial and banal, but as our experience tells us, this balance is hard to reach to. However, in my opinion, open source/free software strategy, with all it's faults, is very well positioned to deliver just that. There's is no big roadmap (and that's not necessary have been a bad thing so far) because quite a big part of this project is steered by volunteers. It is hard to plan something if you are not sure if you will have time to work on project next year. However, there are number of guidelines we are following, also release team decisions, which are influenced by offers to include different kind of software or technology in core. However, if we aim to have little more impact on market, there are several things which could improve things in my opinion: 1. If we go GNOME OS route, then we should have solid definition what that actually means - starting with minimal as possible. Application wise that means that we have text editor who can do that and that, we have media player who can do that and that. Of course, you can describe *everything*, but having such definition in a form of unit/integration/gui tests would help to track regressions and we would understand where we stand. If you are regular on desktop-devel list you have seen some sad clashes between maitaners/decision makers and another set of developers/super users who didn't see that coming. Having such definition would at least minimise confusion. 2. We have more dedicated QA team, which works with applications to provide solid way to test their apps for regressions, who would oversee feedback from different sources of users. Respectfully, Peteris Krisjanis. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME now
T , 2012.11.14. 22:37 -0600, Brian Cameron rakstīja: Seif: On 11/15/12 03:31 AM, Seif Lotfy wrote: Good points Brian :) I like the last part this advanced UNIX-hacker type does not seem to be the primary user GNOME is focusing on anymore. For better or worse, I would say that most Solaris GNOME users probably fall either in the advanced UNIX-hacker category, or the type of user who uses a Solaris GNOME desktop in a very focused or controlled environment such as a kiosk or call center environment. So, the desktop on Solaris seems to be increasingly diverging from the needs of the GNOME community. But I think the GNOME community has been conscious that platforms like Solaris were being left behind as decisions were being made. But is there any strong reasons why Oracle won't chime in and support further development of GNOME Panel (let's call it GNOME Classic - that all Fallback mode don't make any justice to it)? Is it financial problem? Strategic? I think it just lacks core maintainer, that's all. Just curious, Respectfully, Peteris Krisjanis. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME now
Brian Cameron brian.came...@oracle.com wrote: ... For better or worse, I would say that most Solaris GNOME users probably fall either in the advanced UNIX-hacker category, or the type of user who uses a Solaris GNOME desktop in a very focused or controlled environment such as a kiosk or call center environment. So, the desktop on Solaris seems to be increasingly diverging from the needs of the GNOME community. But I think the GNOME community has been conscious that platforms like Solaris were being left behind as decisions were being made. That really depends on how you define the needs of the advanced UNIX-hacker category. GNOME 3 may have differences from traditional desktop environments of the past (it also has a lot of similarities too), but it is definitely intended to be an effective environment for developers or system administrators. (I'm speaking from a UX design point of view here, obviously.) Allan ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
2012/11/15 Benjamin Otte o...@gnome.org The general response I got to that post was either no response at all, talking behind my back about what what a bad person I am (at least that's what others told me) or - and this was the most concerning response for me - You shouldn't say things like that. And that response came multiple times from very different GNOME contributors. So the lesson I learned back then is that rule number 1 about the GNOME project is that you don't talk about the GNOME project. If you ask me, I think you should have thought twice on whether what you were writing was accurate, whether those opinions came out of actual facts, or whether you were just somewhat disappointed and decided to rant as an emotional outlet. You have to admit that when someone is a somewhat relevant member of the community, saying such things implies certain responsibility and sends certain message to the outer public. I joined GNOME in 2003, and it is very easy to see how thriving this community is right now, we have more contributors than ever, we have more focus than ever. The one thing that was somewhat true is that we have less corporate support, back then IBM, Sun, Novell, Nokia and many other people were looking at GNOME as a platform to build products from. These days that's not the case. Market has changed, and sure, getting a job where you can do GNOMEy stuff is hard. But let's be honest, this is, by no means, any worse than the state of affairs in 2001, we've been in a way worse situation before, with way less contributors and way less accumulated knowledge and experience. And we moved forward. I think that some of the old farts like us are somewhat discouraged that we are not in the place where we thought GNOME would be by now (10x10 or GNOME based phones, or something like that), and it is easy to lose enthusiasm over time. The reason why a lot of people were upset about that blog post is that it could take enthusiasm away from newcomers or people considering joining to help us. Now let's check the facts, look at what we've accomplished in the latest couple of years. 3.0 was a major effort, GSettings, Gtk+, GNOME Shell, PyGObject... I am humbled by the ammount of cordination and shared vision that it takes to come up with all of what we've done. Sure, it's not perfect, sure we have many challenges, but it's hard to look at the hard facts and not be amazed. Yup, some of the old farts might be tired, people evolve, change, and want to do new things, but it is our responsibility to encourage the newer generations. If the message we send to the new contributors is Don't bother, this is a dead end, who is going to want to join? Would you imagine Linus Torlvads saying how awful the Linux kernel project is just because he is tired of it or somewhat discouraged? TL,DR; There's nothing wrong with expressing your opinion, none is asking you to stop doing that, but what we say have consequences, and being a relevant member of the community as yourself, poses some responsibility in what you say. Plus, we have many reasons to celebrate and enjoy GNOME as a project and a community these days. Fwiw, I still don't think Emily should characterize me as break[ing] API’s at random and purposefully ensuring that [..] themes cease to work, but I think she has all the right in the world to do that as long as I get the right to use my choice words to answer to that. I'd rather have her calling me that than nobody saying anything at all. I can understand that their intentions are noble, but the last time someone took their chances we ended up with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNOME#cite_note-6 Fun fact: I didn't know I ended up on Wikipedia (Someone should file a bug against Wordpress' pingback feature). Isn't it discouraged to cite blogs on Wikipedia? [1] :) Benjamin 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Blogs_as_sources ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list -- Cheers, Alberto Ruiz ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 5:39 AM, Alan Cox a...@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk wrote: If you've got a fast CPU and reasonable but unusupported graphics hardware then it's usable but not great. No idea what Gnome 3 is like on a Raspberry Pi which would be the most useful other guide as its got fairly snappy graphics but naff CPU and relatively limited memory (512MB now) I suggest keeping an eye on the OLPC hardware as a low-end hardware benchmark for the GNOME desktop. As for market share there are over 2 million XO-1 and XO-1.5 out there and AFAICT the ARM based XO-1.75 is shipping and the touchscreen enabled XO-4 (in may ways similar to the XO-1.75) is on the way soon (FWIW ,I like the prototype I test on). OLPC builds are dual boot in Sugar and GNOME and I would love for GNOME to consider these users in their decision making. http://wiki.laptop.org/go/XO-1 http://wiki.laptop.org/go/XO-1.5 http://wiki.laptop.org/go/XO-1.75 http://wiki.laptop.org/go/XO-4 Just a thought about a large definable community segment where hardware is tightly defined. cjl ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME now
On Wed, 2012-11-14 at 18:26 -0600, Brian Cameron wrote: this advanced UNIX-hacker type does not seem to be the primary user GNOME is focusing on anymore. An open source environment needs to attract four main types of people if it's going to remain viable - 1. programmers, to work on it 2. system administrators and packagers, to get it distributed, to make sure it fits in well with other systems 3. evangelists, to tell other people about it, to write tutorials, to twist the developers' arms or confiscate their shoes until the environment is appealing... 4. its target user base, which has to include 1-3 above. Very few people use a system because of its licence; they choose a system and maybe then check that the licence is acceptable to them. That doesn't mean the licence is unimportant, of course. The GNOME desktop needs to be the best (or at least a very good) environment for people developing applications and for running Web browsers... Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME now
First up, I know my post is likely out of order, but I'm not sure how to correct that... I'm reading and replying to the first post by Seif in the archive... Anyhow.. So Seif's three questions were/are: [1] Where’s the product going? [2] What problem are we trying to solve? [3] How are we going to do that? My responses: [1] Our product is GNOME, and we're aiming to be the best free desktop around. [2] We're trying to figure out how to regain the respect of the wider FOSS community, many of whom currently feel (rightly or wrongly) alienated, disrespected and ignored. [3] By encouraging users new and old to begin contributing whenever and however they can, and by respecting and appreciating their thoughts and contributions whenever they occur. Emily -- Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. - Goethe Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. - Dr.Seuss Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted. - Albert Einstein ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME now
Peteris Krisjanis pecisk at gmail.com writes: I think we are in same business as Apple - we are trying to offer unified user experience. Difference between us and Apple though is that (in my opinion) most of us strongly believe that openness/freedom and consistent user experience (trough user interface and system design and behavior) can be in same boat (versus Walled garden and guided experience). I think we can all agree that's our vision. First: Watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qp0HIF3SfI4 so you know what I'm going to reference. What you say is not a vision. That's a what, not a why. Also, are we in the same business as Apple? Apple is in the business of challenging the status quo and thinking differently. ($:04 in the video) Are we? WHY are we doing GNOME? The second thing is one that has been nagging me since I've started working on GTK. I talked about in my talk at Berlin in 2011. And so far, nobody has provided a good answer for it: We are not answering some of the most basic questions you need to answer for any product about how we are doing it. Like these: Who are we doing it for? Well, we sometimes say it's for everyone, but that's just not true. If it was for everyone, we wouldn't require OpenGL and spend our time on bringing GNOME 2 to mobile phones instead of reinventing the one thing we were good at (the Linux desktop). But even if we were for everyone, we have to have some people we like more than others. We already picked people that don't want to fiddle with their configuration over people that do want to fiddle with their configuration. We've also been picking people that need simple consumer applications over content creators. Or we wouldn't have written contacts, clocks and a new shell, but would have worked on improving GIMP, Inkscape, Glade or Pitivi instead. And it looks like Wacom users with lots of VMs that require Kerberos logins are way Who are we selling it to? This question is not about the person who is going to use it in the end. It's about who is taking what we produce and doing stuff with those things we gave out. Apple for example doesn't just sell to users, it also sells to shops and to mobile network operators. And Android is sold to OEMs. So who are we trying to convince to use GNOME? Is it distros? Is it OEMs? Is it end users? All of them? Because if it's distros, we've lost a bunch with the GNOME 3 transition (Ubuntu, Meego/Tizen) and I don't see us trying to win them back. If it's OEMs, we haven't done much better. If it's end users, then why don't we have a product for them? The only product we have that targets end users directly is jhbuild... So HOW are we actually doing this? So that leaves the what question. It's a question most people aren't sure about either. Are we doing a desktop? A tablet interface? Maybe phones? Are we for kiosks? Do we ship a platform for others to build upon? All of it? We do have a bunch of guidelines (unified experience, HiG etc) that you outline, but from my POV we are clearly missing answers to a lot of these questions. And these questions are important for me as a GTK developer to answer. in the recent theming discussion - where theme developers complain that GTK breaks their themes every release - I need to know what to do about it and what to spend my time on. Do I make their lives easier? Or do I instead work on new features desired for GNOME 3.8? Do I look more or less at GTK portability to other platforms (like Windows, OSX, or even running on top of KDE or Unity)? Should I take time looking into porting Libreoffice to GTK? Should I improve devtools like Glade instead of GTK? I can roughly answer all of these questions myself. But I have no idea WHAT we as the GNOME community think is important. Benjamin PS: Another example for the why/how/what thing: Mozilla believes in an open web. They educate about and develop software to make this open experience easy. Wanna use their browser and phone? ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
Actually a non-negligible number of desktops as I understand running gnome based desktops just don't have the graphics hardware needed to run the shell Even worse, most of the machines that CAN run it need nonfree software to run it -- which means that we should urge people not to buy them. The only graphics accelerators I know of that don't require nonfree software are some Intel ones, and the nVidia devices which Nouveau supports. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
Em Wed, 2012-11-14 às 11:08 -0800, Sriram Ramkrishna escreveu: The wrong idea of course is that people think we're just removing features for no apparent reason even though for instance fallback mode was never guarantee. We need to correct those misconceptions. Having a good relationship with the general public is more important now than it was in the past thanks to social media. For example, with Ubuntu (who holds the largest share of users right now), GNOME is no longer the default and so it takes a conscious effort to change to GNOME. If they do the research, I don't want them to see a pile of ridiculous blog postings that aren't challenged by calm and simple rhetoric. A lot of work. I simply hope that communication is inwards as well as outwards. Regarding, Emily's post. You need to look at the overall message there. Not everyone is on the same page, and the fact that we are having this discussion with other people who clearly have the same concerns is indicative that we do have a problem. If you think there is no problem, we an drop this whole thing. Community enthusiasts won't go out there using the 'royal we' without some training. This stuff isn't easy, and it is important that our volunteers understand how to engage in both the GNOME community and the community at large. They will need training on GNOME's vision and purpose. That means, release team, designers, and relevant parties will need to help these volunteers in understanding it before going out there and speaking in our name. I'm having Karen be in charge of us. The end goal is to reduce the signal to noise ratio and get real feedback without hyperbole and let developers and designers be able to produce awesome stuff without feeling buried in undue negativity. The only thing I ask in return is that you consider the feedback that is being provided to you. If the feedback is negative, help us engage with the community with the right approach. If the feedback is positive, then I hope you will take that as encourage and motivation to keep doing it. Do you want that job? :) ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
Hi Karen, I think these are good suggestions. But I think it would be a mistake to leave this critical responsibility to a committee of volunteers. One of the many challenges we face is that our voice and message have been too inconsistent - too infrequently heard. Heard too late. Lacking authority. In want of good taste. And dealing with this is taking a huge toll on our ability to attract and retain contributors. Something needs to be done. I propose that we hire or appoint a full time director of marketing. With the following responsibilities: * Organize and work with a team of advocates * Grok and channel the voice of the project rather than impose a separate agenda * Consult with the design, development, testing, and documentation teams * Help us clearly and effectively communicate our goals and objectives * Organize the creation of press releases / release notes * Blog regularly about ongoing initiatives and progress * Be a beacon of light to counter the darkness * Help us communicate proactively instead of reactively * Educate misinformed journalists * Be a point of contact for external parties that want information * Reduce the burden on volunteers * Delegate the above responsibilities If nothing else, it is clear that we are failing to perform these critical duties. We are paying a dear price for it. I think we need to admit we need professional help - a point I'm sure even our harshest critics will agree with. Jon On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 12:47 AM, Karen Sandler ka...@gnome.org wrote: On Wed, November 14, 2012 8:40 am, Bastien Nocera wrote: - And discontent. Well, I think that I have reasonable doubts to think that those community managers wouldn't be able to carry the message of developers truthfully if said developers aren't being talked to. I think it's a fair point to raise issues of quality control for this committee. One of the things I think we should start with for this initiative is the creation of GNOME talking points/FAQ type of document. The new team could do this by working with the release team, the board and others in the community who would like to contribute. I think some of the conversation we're having in other threads on this list are a good start for that too. By going through that process, we'd be able to train the volunteers and provide material to work from for the individuals to use in formulating their own responses (so not a cut and paste document, but a formulation of key goals, ideas and decisions). We could also create infrastructure to help them out, like an IRC channel and private mailing list where posts can be vetted. We'd also need to set up mechanisms for communication so that developers can be consulted. In the end, I think this could wind up being a lot easier for our core developers, who seem to be often put on the spot to defend their work. Having a team that these developers can talk to and count on to repeatedly respond on behalf of the project seems to me like a great way to preserve those people's time. Are there other ways we could improve this side of the conversation? karen ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME now
What you say is not a vision. That's a what, not a why. Also, are we in the same business as Apple? Apple is in the business of challenging the status quo and thinking differently. ($:04 in the video) Are we? WHY are we doing GNOME? We are in the business of challenging the status quo in free software. Happy hacking, Debarshi -- There are two hard problems in computer science: cache invalidation, naming things and off-by-one errors. pgp6iI5TjuiLo.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
Well, have come you forget Radeon free driver, who supports impressive number of cards which work without a glitch with GNOME Shell, Unity and similar software :) In fact, most of the machines than can run has a) Either Intel graphics - works perfectly b) ATI/AMD Radeon - most of them are supported by 'radeon' Xorg driver, newest ones require closed source drivers c) Nvidia cards d) and finally, all of these machines *can* run GNOME desktop trough software rendering using LLVM, altough is not as snappy as it can be, it's really works. So Richard, things *are* improving :) We are at much less mercy of closed drivers than before. Respectfully, Peter. 2012/11/15 Richard Stallman r...@gnu.org Actually a non-negligible number of desktops as I understand running gnome based desktops just don't have the graphics hardware needed to run the shell Even worse, most of the machines that CAN run it need nonfree software to run it -- which means that we should urge people not to buy them. The only graphics accelerators I know of that don't require nonfree software are some Intel ones, and the nVidia devices which Nouveau supports. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list -- mortigi tempo Pēteris Krišjānis ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
On 15 nov. 2012, at 22:19, pec...@gmail.com pec...@gmail.com wrote: d) and finally, all of these machines *can* run GNOME desktop trough software rendering using LLVM, altough is not as snappy as it can be, it's really works. which prevents from running gnome on things like raspberry pi and the like... ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
On Thu, November 15, 2012 2:39 pm, William Jon McCann wrote: Hi Karen, I think these are good suggestions. But I think it would be a mistake to leave this critical responsibility to a committee of volunteers. One of the many challenges we face is that our voice and message have been too inconsistent - too infrequently heard. Heard too late. Lacking authority. In want of good taste. And dealing with this is taking a huge toll on our ability to attract and retain contributors. Something needs to be done. I propose that we hire or appoint a full time director of marketing. This is a great idea! And I agree that this is a major area of need for us. Given the GNOME Foundation finances, it probably is also worth considering someone part-time (especially if there is a team of volunteers that can be trained and directed by such a person) or thinking creatively about fundraising for the position. The other challenge will be to find the right person for the position. In the past, organizations I worked with who hired for these kinds of positions had a really tough time finding someone with the right skillset already and who also understood free software and was affordable. But we can tackle that and set up a hiring process if we decide this is what we want to do and can raise the funds. We'll take it to the board! In the meantime, as I return from maternity leave (I'm not fully back for a few weeks), I can help push forward some of these tasks - some of them have gone in and out of my queue over the last year depending on my other commitments - though many of them require someone more trained than me to do well. We've been talking about various ideas on the marketing list, including a weekly podcast/oggcast about GNOME. If we can get that together, mind being on the first one, Jon? :D karen With the following responsibilities: * Organize and work with a team of advocates * Grok and channel the voice of the project rather than impose a separate agenda * Consult with the design, development, testing, and documentation teams * Help us clearly and effectively communicate our goals and objectives * Organize the creation of press releases / release notes * Blog regularly about ongoing initiatives and progress * Be a beacon of light to counter the darkness * Help us communicate proactively instead of reactively * Educate misinformed journalists * Be a point of contact for external parties that want information * Reduce the burden on volunteers * Delegate the above responsibilities If nothing else, it is clear that we are failing to perform these critical duties. We are paying a dear price for it. I think we need to admit we need professional help - a point I'm sure even our harshest critics will agree with. Jon On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 12:47 AM, Karen Sandler ka...@gnome.org wrote: On Wed, November 14, 2012 8:40 am, Bastien Nocera wrote: - And discontent. Well, I think that I have reasonable doubts to think that those community managers wouldn't be able to carry the message of developers truthfully if said developers aren't being talked to. I think it's a fair point to raise issues of quality control for this committee. One of the things I think we should start with for this initiative is the creation of GNOME talking points/FAQ type of document. The new team could do this by working with the release team, the board and others in the community who would like to contribute. I think some of the conversation we're having in other threads on this list are a good start for that too. By going through that process, we'd be able to train the volunteers and provide material to work from for the individuals to use in formulating their own responses (so not a cut and paste document, but a formulation of key goals, ideas and decisions). We could also create infrastructure to help them out, like an IRC channel and private mailing list where posts can be vetted. We'd also need to set up mechanisms for communication so that developers can be consulted. In the end, I think this could wind up being a lot easier for our core developers, who seem to be often put on the spot to defend their work. Having a team that these developers can talk to and count on to repeatedly respond on behalf of the project seems to me like a great way to preserve those people's time. Are there other ways we could improve this side of the conversation? karen ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME now
I am loving the replies until now. But can we try to keep this focused. Can we try to answer the three questions with three short answers. [1] Where’s the product going? [2] What problem are we trying to solve? [3] How are we going to do that? On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 8:54 PM, Debarshi Ray rishi...@lostca.se wrote: What you say is not a vision. That's a what, not a why. Also, are we in the same business as Apple? Apple is in the business of challenging the status quo and thinking differently. ($:04 in the video) Are we? WHY are we doing GNOME? We are in the business of challenging the status quo in free software. Happy hacking, Debarshi -- There are two hard problems in computer science: cache invalidation, naming things and off-by-one errors. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
On Thu, 2012-11-15 at 16:56 +0900, Tristan Van Berkom wrote: On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 4:08 AM, Sriram Ramkrishna s...@ramkrishna.me wrote: The wrong idea of course is that people think we're just removing features for no apparent reason even though for instance fallback mode was never guarantee. We need to correct those misconceptions. Are you saying that a fallback mode was never guaranteed ? As I recall, providing a fallback was indeed a blocker for GNOME 3 initial release... it was also around then that somehow gnome-shell was included in gnome releases without the regular module proposal period. Actually a non-negligible number of desktops as I understand running gnome based desktops just don't have the graphics hardware needed to run the shell (from my personal experience, in south america many, if not even most of the public desktops found in hostels etc, used by travelers... were actually running gnome). What has changed since the initial GNOME 3 release and now ? A number of things already mentioned in the d-d-l thread and on the wiki page, but mainly loads of bug fixes to the LLVMpipe renderer, and a better idea which use cases we want to support. Is gnome-shell now optimized and usable on said, older hardware ? There's a number of bugs blocking the 3.8 release about disabling animations in a number of cases (exported displays through VNC or SPICE, low-end machines). They're all linked from the wiki page and the bugzilla. Perhaps what we need is not a person/group of people working for 'good press' and telling people that we have their best interests at heart, but rather a bit more transparency in how we make our decisions... reinstating our module proposals might be a good first step towards including the whole community and getting them more involved in decision making again. There was a discussion 6 months ago where we decided to keep fallback mode, and another one happened about a month ago where we ended up deciding not to. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
On Thu, 2012-11-15 at 08:40 -0500, Chris Leonard wrote: On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 5:39 AM, Alan Cox a...@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk wrote: If you've got a fast CPU and reasonable but unusupported graphics hardware then it's usable but not great. No idea what Gnome 3 is like on a Raspberry Pi which would be the most useful other guide as its got fairly snappy graphics but naff CPU and relatively limited memory (512MB now) I suggest keeping an eye on the OLPC hardware as a low-end hardware benchmark for the GNOME desktop. As for market share there are over 2 million XO-1 and XO-1.5 out there and AFAICT the ARM based XO-1.75 is shipping and the touchscreen enabled XO-4 (in may ways similar to the XO-1.75) is on the way soon (FWIW ,I like the prototype I test on). OLPC builds are dual boot in Sugar and GNOME and I would love for GNOME to consider these users in their decision making. Have you shipped GNOME 3 on any of those, and, if so, were you using GNOME fallback or GNOME shell? ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME now
WHY are we doing GNOME? The reason we started GNOME is to make it possible to have a graphical desktop without nonfree software. KDE existed, but had a fatal flaw: it depended on Qt which at the time was nonfree. Who are we selling it to? The question is important but the word selling is an unfortunate way of stating it. We're not _selling_ GNOME to anyone. This is not a business activity aiming above all for profit. It is something much more important: a campaign for freedom. The real questions are, who are we hoping will decide to use GNOME 3? By what path will it get into the hands of the people it is intended to be good for? A desktop meant for non-wizards on a mobile machine can achieve success only through wide use of GNU/Linux distros on mobile machines. I think that when some distros aim for that, they might decide GNOME 3 is what they want. But distros not aiming for that goal are not likely to choose the corresponding means. Well, we sometimes say it's for everyone, but that's just not true. If it was for everyone, we wouldn't require OpenGL and spend our time on bringing GNOME 2 to mobile phones instead of reinventing the one thing we were good at (the Linux desktop). Linux is a kernel. Linux has no user interfaces; they are part of the GNU operating system, within which Linux is often used. See http://www.gnu.org/gnu/the-gnu-project.html. People often talk about GNU and call it Linux, which is an error. It's not completely clear, but the words I cited above suggest that error. Since it works against the GNU Project (including GNOME), would you please make the effort to say GNU/Linux desktop? Anyway, if we want to give freedom to lots of users, it is clear we need to support mobile computers and do a good job for them. Thus, the basic goal of GNOME 3 is an important one, even a necessary one. First: Watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qp0HIF3SfI4 so you know what I'm going to reference. Accessing youtube.com through a browser requires running nonfree software (either Flash Player or some nonfree Javascript). Since he purpose of GNOME is to help free software replace nonfree software, when you refer people to a youtube video would you please recommend a free download script people can use to view it without running nonfree software? -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME now
Allan: On 11/15/12 06:46 AM, Allan Day wrote: Brian Cameronbrian.came...@oracle.com wrote: But I think the GNOME community has been conscious that platforms like Solaris were being left behind as decisions were being made. That really depends on how you define the needs of the advanced UNIX-hacker category. GNOME 3 may have differences from traditional desktop environments of the past (it also has a lot of similarities too), but it is definitely intended to be an effective environment for developers or system administrators. (I'm speaking from a UX design point of view here, obviously.) I do agree that the GNOME 3 designers have kept the advanced UNIX hacker in mind. I did not mean to imply otherwise. I would instead say that this type of user is of a lesser priority than they were in the past. Is this not a fair statement? IMHO, the archetypal UNIX hacker is the person in a Matrix-like multiscreen virtual-reality pod using touch-screen hand gestures to access all sorts of remote programs around the globe. But, isn't the plan for GNOME to lose many multi-screen and remote-X features for the time being in favor of better support for the average user's needs? As you say, GNOME should be an effective environment for hackers that do not need features GNOME will not support. I would say most hackers find the ability to access remote machines in a multi-screen environment more important than the ability to use a touch-screen, though. Is there a plan for features that hackers need to be addressed? Perhaps by the time GNOME 3 is scheduled to be included with Enterprise Linux distros in addition to FOSS hobbyist distros? If GNOME wanted to seriously keep its hacker user-base, I would think it would be smarter to maintain the Fallback mode until such features have suitable replacements. Also, I'd think that if the GNOME community were able to provide a better support story for GNOME fallback mode, a lot of FUD about the need for GNOME to continue forking would evaporate. But hasn't the release team already decided that the need to make GNOME more slim and maintainable trumps backwards compatibility and such typical hacker needs? Brian ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME now
Peteris: On 11/15/12 06:36 AM, Peteris Krisjanis wrote: T , 2012.11.14. 22:37 -0600, Brian Cameron rakstīja: On 11/15/12 03:31 AM, Seif Lotfy wrote: But is there any strong reasons why Oracle won't chime in and support further development of GNOME Panel (let's call it GNOME Classic - that all Fallback mode don't make any justice to it)? Is it financial problem? Strategic? I think it just lacks core maintainer, that's all. I have been encouraging the Oracle Desktop team to step up and help, but resources are more limited than they were in the past. I have found it difficult to get folks at Oracle motivated to help, though. I think partially because it is not clear that fixing this problem is as easy to fix as you seem to suggest. Note that Oracle released Solaris 11 with GNOME 2.30/2.32 not long ago. It is probably to be expected that Solaris is more focused on maintaining such supported products than on new development at this point in the release cycle. In past years, Sun and Oracle dedicated significant resources towards GNOME helping in areas like QA, usability, stability, a11y, multi-user desktop features, community building (e.g. GNOME.Asia) and more. It is hard to know if more resources now will really be such a game changer at a time when highly visible GNOME senior engineers keep pressing that non-Linux GNOME is so much on their own. That said, I am sure that Oracle will continue helping in ways. The Oracle Desktop team is, for example, currently working to integrate GTK3 into Solaris 12. While OpenGL may not work well on Sun Ray today, some GTK3 programs likely will be needed by Solaris users. Especially if the GNOME community starts only providing security fixes for GTK3 versions of programs. It is not clear to me if the GNOME community has any plan or recommendations for dealing with GNOME 2 support, such as a plan to provide security fixes. Brian ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 11:39 AM, William Jon McCann william.jon.mcc...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Karen, I think these are good suggestions. But I think it would be a mistake to leave this critical responsibility to a committee of volunteers. One of the many challenges we face is that our voice and message have been too inconsistent - too infrequently heard. Heard too late. Lacking authority. In want of good taste. And dealing with this is taking a huge toll on our ability to attract and retain contributors. Something needs to be done. I propose that we hire or appoint a full time director of marketing. Let me add one other position. We need to hire another sysadmin person. Along the same community support, we need to also be able to have the infrastructure to support coming out with daily builds for the community to test out and give feedback on the new designs that come out. Bug testing and performance testing as well so that we have a quality product. If we are serious about doing GNOME OS we are going to need to upgrade our infrastructure. We will need to do fund raising to be able get the right hardware and the right person to manage it. Regarding the community management, I think it will be challenging to find such a person in the near term. Going with the a team of volunteers who are trained to do this will at least let us work out what changes we need to make internally and externally. Certain changes will need to be talked over with both the release team and the marketing or community management team. Currently, marketing team is just a bolted on team in GNOME. So, I think to realize your goals below we need to change how we do things internally. It'll be a tough slog, people don't think about community outreach. We're primarily a technical project and still have a lot of the hacker culture and doing this kind of stuff is against it. Then again, nobody ever done a designed focused open source project either, have we? :-) With the following responsibilities: * Organize and work with a team of advocates * Grok and channel the voice of the project rather than impose a separate agenda * Consult with the design, development, testing, and documentation teams * Help us clearly and effectively communicate our goals and objectives * Organize the creation of press releases / release notes * Blog regularly about ongoing initiatives and progress * Be a beacon of light to counter the darkness * Help us communicate proactively instead of reactively * Educate misinformed journalists * Be a point of contact for external parties that want information * Reduce the burden on volunteers * Delegate the above responsibilities The one thing I wanted to do with the advocates as you call them is to really go onto blogs and popular social media places and actually address people who complain. I think this works and I know I have made some in-roads using this approach. It's amazing how a simply listening changes a person's perspective on GNOME. There are of course some people who are completely deranged but in general, I believe people turned positive. At the very least their last interaction with us was pleasant and might be willing to look at GNOME again later. If nothing else, it is clear that we are failing to perform these critical duties. We are paying a dear price for it. I think we need to admit we need professional help - a point I'm sure even our harshest critics will agree with. This is good to hear. I hope others also are in agreement. Acknowledging we have an issue is a good first step to solving it. sri Jon On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 12:47 AM, Karen Sandler ka...@gnome.org wrote: On Wed, November 14, 2012 8:40 am, Bastien Nocera wrote: - And discontent. Well, I think that I have reasonable doubts to think that those community managers wouldn't be able to carry the message of developers truthfully if said developers aren't being talked to. I think it's a fair point to raise issues of quality control for this committee. One of the things I think we should start with for this initiative is the creation of GNOME talking points/FAQ type of document. The new team could do this by working with the release team, the board and others in the community who would like to contribute. I think some of the conversation we're having in other threads on this list are a good start for that too. By going through that process, we'd be able to train the volunteers and provide material to work from for the individuals to use in formulating their own responses (so not a cut and paste document, but a formulation of key goals, ideas and decisions). We could also create infrastructure to help them out, like an IRC channel and private mailing list where posts can be vetted. We'd also need to set up mechanisms for communication so that developers can be consulted. In the end, I think this could wind up being a lot easier for our core developers,
