Re: Supporting GTK+
If I plan to denote $10 monthly from China, is there a good way? I found that I need to pay about $18 in order to remittance $10 from China to US. You could save it up for a year, and send it all at once. It would be efficient that way. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Software relicensing, how is it done ?
I dont see how I can agree that entering in direct competition with anyone who wants to make a dollar from a software solution is going to bring us to that long-term goal. The GNU Project has a history of competing successfully with proprietary software. For instance, GCC competed directly with non-free C compilers, and has done quite well against them. And the GNU operating system as a whole has done pretty well against Unix. Any free IDE almost surely competes directly with non-free IDEs, but that is no reason to give up developing them, and I am confident our community will not. Frankly, the company I formerly worked for, chose gtk+ for its C object orented model, and it was possible because of the LGPL licence. I decided to use the LGPL for the basic GNOME libraries, and thus permit non-free programs to support GNOME, so that GNOME could compete better against KDE. Competing with KDE was crucial for our freedom in 1997 because KDE depends on a library, Qt, which was non-free back then. Whether to allow use of Glade in non-free software is a separate question. Would allowing non-free programs to use Glade give a major advance to the free software community? I won't say that is impossible, but no one has made a case that it is likely. What you said in your message is somewhat vague and doesn't make a clear argument. I dont feel offended that someone else may write a frontend that uses libgladeui and makes money on 6 years or so of my own work, While you may be most concerned with who makes how much money, I'm more concerned with advancing our freedom. Free software is a matter of freedom. Non-free software denies the users' freedom. To restore this freedom we need to replace the proprietary software with free software. That's the reason why we developed GNU, and GNOME in particular. See gnu.org/philosophy. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Software relicensing, how is it done ?
Basically, the glade core is intended to serve as a library to edit glade files, making the glade core available under LGPL in my understanding will allow people to use that library in a commercial IDE, It would do that, and that seems like a good reason not to change the license. Currently Glade gives an advantage to free IDEs: only they can use it. We want free IDEs to replace proprietary IDEs, and Glade will make this easier. Would it really benefit our community to negate that advantage? I don't think so. while modifying the core and redistributing it means that their modifications must also be distributed; Yes and no. The LGPL is not a strong copyleft. If they change the files they get from you, the LGPL will require them to release their changed versions of those files. But this will not stop proprietary extensions to Glade. They could change your code by adding calls to subroutines located in their own new files, and not release the source for those files. This too would be a step backward. I love seeing it in Anjuta, I would love to see it all over the place :) Wouldn't it be even better for free IDEs with Glade to replace the proprietary IDEs? As free software developers we naturally feel good to see our own programs in wider use. But what is really important is for free software to replace proprietary software. We can achieve more for freedom if we focus on the deeper and more important long-term goal. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GUADEC plans
This is definitely interesting. However, we do not have the expertise to run such a track. How about when the call for proposals opens for next year, you ask people who actually know about these issues to submit proposals? The FSF can certainly find people who can do this and can help. I could go there and give a speech, if that is desirable, but I know activists in Europe who would do a fine job. But let's not push this into the mold of a proposal for a track. On the one hand, that presupposes a format which may not be the most effective way to do this work. On the other hand, inviting a proposal falls short of actually deciding to do this campaign. My proposal is that GUADEC should decide to use its influence to support this campaign. The details of how can be decided later, with the FSF's help. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GUADLAC - GNOME Users And Developers Latin American Conference
Once upon a time two crazy Mexican hackers thinking about the way to make the ugly Linux interface more user friendly for the users so they devised a project called GNOME, That story isn't accurate. The purpose of GNOME was not about making things more user friendly, and it has nothing particularly to do with Linux. (Linux has no user interface.) The reason GNOME was started is that the GNU Project was looking for a way to counter the danger of the non-free library Qt which was at the base of KDE. We started two projects to deal with that: Harmony, which was a free replacement for Qt, and GNOME, which was a replacement for KDE too. (Nowadays Qt is free software, but that wasn't true in 1997.) So this is one project that was started expressly for the sake of freedom. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: hiring Stormy Peters as executive director
'Here's a specific example of something I like about the GNOME community. It's important to them that things be beautiful. I put beautiful in quotes because I think the GNOME community means much more than pretty when they say beautiful. I think they mean: * Pretty. The desktop, your user interface, should look nice. It should be beautiful. * Easy to use. Functional. When things flow smoothly and everything is in just the right spot, right where you expect to find it, it's beautiful. * Done right. When things are coded right and they are reliable functional, easy to figure out, they are beautiful. I wouldn't disagree with any of those desiderata, but there are two more that no list of GNOME desiderata should omit: freedom and social solidarity. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Supporting GTK+
Perhaps is the best solution to open a gnome-jobs mailing list? People can use the FSF's job page, fsf.org/resources/jobs/listings, for GNOME-related jobs. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GTK and Adobe Flash
What we need for use with GNOME is programs that are be free software. That is not the same thing as open source. Most open source programs are free software, but there are some exceptions. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html for more explanation of the difference between free software and ope source. The aim of Gnash is to be a free software player for Flash. It is making pretty good progress, but the problem is that Adobe keeps adding features to Flash. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GTK and Adobe Flash
I don't think any of the free software flash players handles Flash 9. Gnash has partly implemented it, but not completely; its maintainer says that swfdec is less advanced. If that is true, it is a bad thing to use Flash 9, because you would, in effect, be pressuring people to use the non-free Adobe flash player. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Call for hosts for GUADEC 2009
Originally coming from a country that definitely fits that bill too, I don't appreciate being exclusive to people based on their government. I agree, in a theoretical sense, but that isn't the issue here. Moreover, where do you set the limit? What about China for example? China is the epitome of a country to avoid. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME strongly supports open standards including OpenDocument Format
OK. Who has a draft statement or web page? The FSF might have one. Others probably do as well. You could make a brief note of support, with a link to some other site's campaign. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME strongly supports open standards including OpenDocument Format
Is it? What are we actually talking about? The original referenced e-mail (http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2005-November/msg00177.html) is a technical opinion on how to make open standards as useful as possible in providing cross-platform/cross-desktop integration. I was talking about the Massachusetts policy decision about OpenDocument (which was also referenced in Anne's message that started this thread). I thought that's why people are suggesting a press release and trying to influence politicians. The other message you're referring to may raise other issues also worth talking about. I am not sure what it says. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME strongly supports open standards including OpenDocument Format
We might even consider a press release explaining our point of view. [snip] Fine with me, though I don't think anybody will notice. Just making a statement may not have much effect. However, asking visitors to the site to write to politicians can have more effect. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME strongly supports open standards including OpenDocument Format
For example, people still feel that by default GNOME should ship with stuff that makes it easy to encode to mp3 or rip CD's for their hardware devices that do not support open formats; or that GNOME should play DVD's. I think there is a misunderstanding--we are not talking about those issues, not now. The issue at hand is encouraging governments to switch to free formats. Maybe a check with the developer base is needed first ? There is no time for that, and fortunately no need. Putting up such a statement as the Foundation and then having a lot of developers disagree with it in practice seems a bad situation to be in. Not to worry, we know that won't happen on this issue. As for inclusion of code for MP3s and DVDs, I think everyone here would be in favor of that, as long as that code is free software. But there are places where we cannot do this, because the government serves the forces of injustice. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: [Off Topic] We need Vendors? [was Words to Avoid Vendor]
We want to encourage non-free apps to use GNOME, but we don't want to appear to grant those non-free apps ethical legitimacy. We have to choose our words with care to achieve both goals at once. These are your priorities. Other people have other priorities, though they have the same aims. It's a difference of strategy, not of ideology. I think it is a difference of values. Not everyone involved with GNOME thinks that free vs proprietary software is a matter of right vs wrong. That is precisely why I'm looking for like-minded candidates to endorse for the board. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Endorsing David Neary
David Neary also champions free software ideals, so I am going to vote for him too. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Endorsing Anne Østergaard
I will be voting for Anne Østergaard also, because she too is a supporter of the ethical ideals of free software. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Additional questions for the board candidates
In what way does moving to C# serve Microsoft? Because it supports their strategy, and the goal of their strategy is to wipe us out. Aside from Portable.NET and Mono, the only support for C# is that of Microsoft. Theirs is surely more advanced than ours, and is likely to remain so, even as we make our best efforts. So if C# becomes popular, that works in Microsoft's interest--which generally means, against ours. There is also, as you mentioned, the danger that Microsoft will use its patents to forbid us to implement many aspects of C#. It is true that the danger of patents can come from anywhere and affect any free program. However, danger is more likely in some places than others. Microsoft has a stated its intention to attack us, and has already tried using patents to exclude us from implementing its formats and protocols. We cannot avoid all danger from software patents, just as we can't avoid all chance of being robbed on the street; but we would do well to avoid walking into particularly dangerous neighborhoods like this one. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Endorsing Behdad Esfahbod
I will be voting for Behdad Esfahbod, due to his support for free software as an ethical movement. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Additional questions for the board candidates
For GNOME to include C# support as an optional add-on cannot hurt. It should work with Portable.NET, which is the GNU implementation of C#, and whose design is more favorable to possible integration with GCC than that of Mono is. However, it is fine to work with Mono as well. I think it is clear that C# should not be the main or preferred language for GNOME, should not play a major or central role. Giving it such a role would be a very bad strategic move, since it would encourage a large community to move in a direction that serves our declared enemy. The hard question is whether to give C# a middle-level role--whether to let it be more than an optional add-on. The issue depends on the legal situation, and I don't know the situation enough to have an opinion. I urge the board to consult with people like Eben Moglen and Dan Ravicher before deciding this. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Questions to answer
Many of the candidates have identified software patents as a major threat. Would GNOME like to help in the campaign against the new IPR enforcement directive in the EU? A prominent link to FFII's page about this would be pretty effective, and easy to do. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Questions to answer
I would be happy to help out. As Jonathan mentions, Murray and I have been sorting through some of the issues on live.gnome.org by putting together an Interface Specification that is hopefully useful to ISV's Does ISV stand for Independent Software Vendor? If so, the term is often misleading, because the most important developers of GNOME applications--those developing free software--are mostly not vendors. Consider, for instance, the GIMP developers. Their program works with GNOME, but project is not a vendor. GNU Emacs now has GTK+ support, but we Emacs developers are not a vendor. Every time a standard describes the projects that develop or distribute software as vendors, that has the effect of denying the existence of volunteer projects. So please, let's use a different term for GNOME application developers in general, one which fits all of them, and particularly fits our own community. Perhaps we could refer to them as GNOME Application Developers (GADs), or more generally, Independent Software Developers (ISDs). See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#Vendor for reference. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Additional questions for the board candidates
I guess it's the board's job to make sure that some kind of leadership exists, but it's definitely not the board's place to make that kind of decision. Otherwise someone would be asking prospective board members whether they though Mono should be added to the bindings, and Beagle to the platform. Most technical questions are technical issues, and there is no need for the board to concern itself with them. But this one is an exception. Although the question is technical in form, the issue is more legal and political than technical. It concerns questions such as the impact of possible patents. Thus, it is a really a matter of GNOME legal policy. I think this is precisely the kind of question which the board should decide. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Some perspective on the relative importannce of the board.
If the board's role were limited to raising funds, who would be responsible for important policy decisions? ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Vote NO on referendum to reduce board members
Actually, no you can't. Perhaps there are those who know how much each board member has done but quite honestly, I have no clue. And short of manually pinging all of them and trying to extract the information from them not only about themselves but the others on the board (which I suspect would be a fairly time consuming task), I don't really have any clue how I would find out. And if I don't know, you can bet there are a ton of other people out there who don't either. Changing the number of board members would not automatically change this. If what people want is to see which board members are doing work, perhaps what is needed is a better way to help members see that. Concatenating all the minutes into one file would make it possible to run M-x occur on a given board member's name, and get a quick glance of how much (and what) that person has done. If you only did this regarding the people you were considering voting for, would that make it easy enough? ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Reducing the board size
It sounds like increasing the size of the board by 3 people could achieve both of the goals that Dave was talking about: to get more things done, and to have more contested seats (provided enough people decide to run so as to make a real contest). ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Plans for GUADEC 2007, yes 2007
However the reason you are saying that Ubuntu is shipping non-free software is not known to me (well, the only place, where I see non-free software might be, is device drivers, but that is a fault of hardware vendors. And it is reasonable to use them, isn't it? I don't remember which programs in Ubuntu are non-free; perhaps they are device drivers. Someone else recently said that's what they are, so that seems likely. The reason why distributing non-free device drivers is harmful is that distributing any non-free program says, in effect, Non-free programs aren't so bad. After all, if you thought it was really bad to install a non-free program, you wouldn't suggest it to others. And if using a non-free device driver is acceptable because we call it the hardware companies' fault, then what about using Sun's Java libraries and saying that's Sun's fault, or using Adobe's e-book reader with DRM and saying that's Adobe's fault, or RealPlayer's spyware-player and saying that's RealPlayer's fault, etc? Of course we want GNU/Linux to be successful, but why is that goal important? Because our system is a way to escape from non-free software. Anyway, I don't want to turn this into a long digression from the topic of planning GUADEC 2007. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Certification for GNOME apps
You know those printers or modems that have a penguin sticker that says works with Linux? Don't they give you a warm and fuzzy feeling? They give me an annoyed feeling--they ought to say works with GNU/Linux and have a gnu along with the penguin. Whoever it was that said it's impossible to be angry when looking at a penguin must be one of those that thinks the system is Linux. ;-}. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
