Re: [fpc-pascal] AVR Busy Wait implementation

[Florian Klämpfl]

Am 24.01.2016 um 00:00 schrieb Simon Ameis:
> Would it be possible to issue a hint why a procedure can't be inlined at
> a specific call?
> This could change with the compiler and the user knows what to change
> for inlining.

The compiler tries to do this as debug info (-vd), see also 
fpc/compiler/ncal.pas:4007+. This is
printed only at -vd level because it is not detailed enough.

> 
> Where do I find documentation/examples on how to define a compiler
> intrinsic procedure?

Good starting point are fpc/compiler/ninl.pas, fpc/compiler/ncginl.pas and 
tcgavr.g_concatcopy in
fpc/compiler/cgcpu.pas.

But if you provide a good pseudo code description, how such a delay loop should 
look like (e.g.
depending on avr type, delay count etc.) I can offer to implement it in the 
compiler as well.
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Re: [fpc-pascal] AVR Busy Wait implementation

[Marc Santhoff]

On Sa, 2016-01-23 at 11:53 +0100, Florian Klaempfl wrote:

> IMO the only proper solution is to implement delaying as compiler
> intrinsics as it is done by gcc as well.

Besides using a hardware timer on embedded platforms. Older µC like AVR
do not have too much hardware timers, but modern ones normally have a
lot.

Waiting in a loop is not the best way to delay when using multitasking.
One will never know if the timing is disturbed by an interrupt. Or does
the gcc implementation handle this case?

-- 
Marc Santhoff 

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Re: [fpc-pascal] AVR Busy Wait implementation

[Florian Klaempfl]

Am 18.01.2016 um 23:04 schrieb Simon Ameis:
> Thanks for the hint! I've had declared delay_loop_1 and delay_loop_2
> just inside the implementation section.
> 
> Maybe these points should be added to documentation for inlining?

I am against documenting this:
- inline is only a hint to the compiler
- the exact rules are very subtile and might differ between platforms/abi
- the behaviour might change between different compiler versions
So it is hard to document this precisely.

IMO the only proper solution is to implement delaying as compiler
intrinsics as it is done by gcc as well.
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Re: [fpc-pascal] AVR Busy Wait implementation

[Florian Klämpfl]

Am 23.01.2016 um 14:17 schrieb Marc Santhoff:
> On Sa, 2016-01-23 at 11:53 +0100, Florian Klaempfl wrote:
> 
>> IMO the only proper solution is to implement delaying as compiler
>> intrinsics as it is done by gcc as well.
> 
> Besides using a hardware timer on embedded platforms. Older µC like AVR
> do not have too much hardware timers, but modern ones normally have a
> lot.
> 
> Waiting in a loop is not the best way to delay when using multitasking.

The topic of this discussion is how to do a delay loop on avr. Not if a delay 
loop is useful.
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Re: [fpc-pascal] AVR Busy Wait implementation

[Simon Ameis]

Would it be possible to issue a hint why a procedure can't be inlined at
a specific call?
This could change with the compiler and the user knows what to change
for inlining.

Where do I find documentation/examples on how to define a compiler
intrinsic procedure?

Am 23.01.2016 um 11:53 schrieb Florian Klaempfl:
> I am against documenting this:
> - inline is only a hint to the compiler
> - the exact rules are very subtile and might differ between platforms/abi
> - the behaviour might change between different compiler versions
> So it is hard to document this precisely.
>
> IMO the only proper solution is to implement delaying as compiler
> intrinsics as it is done by gcc as well.

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Re: [fpc-pascal] AVR Busy Wait implementation

[Simon Ameis]

Thanks for the hint! I've had declared delay_loop_1 and delay_loop_2
just inside the implementation section.

Maybe these points should be added to documentation for inlining?
- assembler procecedure currently can't be inlined (may change)
- all procedures called by the procedure and all types used by variables
inside the procedure and must be visible at the calling point; this also
disallows unit private types (but procedure local types are okay).

Am 17.01.2016 um 23:56 schrieb Jeppe Johansen:
>
> On 01/17/2016 11:15 PM, Florian Klämpfl wrote:
>> Am 17.01.2016 um 22:01 schrieb Simon Ameis:
>>> I've now come up with the code below.
>>>
>>> The main problem is, that FPC doesn't inline the procedure _delay_ms.
>>> Thus the calculation of the required ticks is done at runtime wich
>>> timing is merely unpredictable.
>>>
>>> What must be done to get this procedure inlined?
>>>
>> Here it does. Did you add {$inline on} ?
> It probably doesn't if delay_loop_1 and delay_loop_2 are private
> procedures inside a unit referenced from another unit. Then _delay_ms
> would be a procedure referencing the static symbol table. Could that
> be what's going on?
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Re: [fpc-pascal] AVR Busy Wait implementation

[Florian Klämpfl]

Am 17.01.2016 um 22:01 schrieb Simon Ameis:
> I've now come up with the code below.
> 
> The main problem is, that FPC doesn't inline the procedure _delay_ms.
> Thus the calculation of the required ticks is done at runtime wich
> timing is merely unpredictable.
> 
> What must be done to get this procedure inlined?
> 

Here it does. Did you add {$inline on} ?

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Re: [fpc-pascal] AVR Busy Wait implementation

[Simon Ameis]

I've now come up with the code below.

The main problem is, that FPC doesn't inline the procedure _delay_ms.
Thus the calculation of the required ticks is done at runtime wich
timing is merely unpredictable.

What must be done to get this procedure inlined?

The documentation isn't very extensive on this topic (size and recustion
are mentioned).

{$DEFINE F_CPU_HZ :=1200}
procedure delay_loop_1(__count: Byte); assembler;
label loop;
asm
  loop:
  dec __count
  brne loop
end;

procedure delay_loop_2(__count: Word); assembler;
label loop;
asm
  loop:
  sbiw __count,1
  brne loop
end;

procedure _delay_ms(__ms: Word); inline;
type
  TLongWordRecord = record
  case Integer of
1: (Value: Longword;);
2: (low_word: Word; High_Word: Word;)
  end;
var
  ticks: TLongWordRecord;
  ticks_dword: Longword absolute ticks.Value;
  ticks_word : Word absolute ticks.low_word;
  ticks_high_word: Word absolute ticks.High_Word;
begin
  ticks_dword := (F_CPU_HZ div 1000) * __ms;

  while ticks_high_word > 0 do
  begin
delay_loop_2(high(Word)); // TODO: substract loop cycles
dec(ticks_high_word);
  end;

  if ticks_word > $00FF then
delay_loop_2(ticks_word)
  else
delay_loop_1(lo(ticks_word));
end;

Am 14.01.2016 um 21:33 schrieb Simon Ameis:
> In general I already know these documents; what I'm looking for is an
> implementation of a busy wait, not how to use it.
> For C/C++ it's easy to get the code files. But I don't know where to get
> compiler built-in procedures for gcc or other language's compilers.
>
> The algorithm itself isn't that complicated:
> 1. assume you know how fast the cpu is (e.g. 1 MHz, 12 MHz or what ever
> fixed value)
> 2. calculate cpu cycles for given time to wait: cycle count := time to
> wait / (1/(cpu speed in MHz))
> 3. call a loop with known cpu cycle usage
>
> Point 1 a fixed cpu speed is assumed for ease and compile time
> optimization (in fact you always need to know the speed of the clock
> source as it can't be determined by the MCU).
> For point 3 there is a very good explanation in German at
> http://www.avr-asm-tutorial.net/avr_de/zeitschleifen/index.html.
>
> The wicked thing is the calculation of the cpu cycles. The C
> implementation uses floating point arithmetics wich is evaluated at
> compile time. It doesn't work with wait times which are calculated at
> runtime.
>
> Am 12.01.2016 um 14:54 schrieb Marc Santhoff:
>> On Mo, 2016-01-11 at 23:19 +0100, Simon Ameis wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> has anyone already written a busy wait procedure for AVR or any other
>>> embedded processors?
>>> I'm currently facing issues converting Arduino's calculation of time
>>> (millisecons/microseconds) to cpu cycles as they rely on compile time
>>> elimination of floating point calculation.
>> No, but I would search something published freely or having a fitting
>> license like BSD and translate it to Pascal.
>>
>> Look there for eample:
>> https://www.mikrocontroller.net/articles/AVR
>>
>> There are lot of projects, the complicated part will be to find the
>> license. But if you write soemthing inspired by existing code but do it
>> yourself, imho will be OK.
>>
>> Marc
>>
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Re: [fpc-pascal] AVR Busy Wait implementation

[Jeppe Johansen]

On 01/17/2016 11:15 PM, Florian Klämpfl wrote:

Am 17.01.2016 um 22:01 schrieb Simon Ameis:

I've now come up with the code below.

The main problem is, that FPC doesn't inline the procedure _delay_ms.
Thus the calculation of the required ticks is done at runtime wich
timing is merely unpredictable.

What must be done to get this procedure inlined?


Here it does. Did you add {$inline on} ?
It probably doesn't if delay_loop_1 and delay_loop_2 are private 
procedures inside a unit referenced from another unit. Then _delay_ms 
would be a procedure referencing the static symbol table. Could that be 
what's going on?

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Re: [fpc-pascal] AVR Busy Wait implementation

[Marc Santhoff]

On Sa, 2016-01-16 at 01:26 +0100, Simon Ameis wrote:
> Am 14.01.2016 um 23:57 schrieb Marc Santhoff:
> > On Do, 2016-01-14 at 21:33 +0100, Simon Ameis wrote:
> >> In general I already know these documents; what I'm looking for is an
> >> implementation of a busy wait, not how to use it.
> >> For C/C++ it's easy to get the code files. But I don't know where to get
> >> compiler built-in procedures for gcc or other language's compilers.
> > If you want to write Pascal code and don not need nano seconds accuracy,
> > you have no need to now compiler internals. Only use time values and the
> > divider factors.
> I don't talk of FPC compiler internals but of gcc compiler internals.
> E.g. the C implementation uses a compiler specific procedure
> __builtin_avr_delay_cycles; I can't find a source to get known how it is
> inlined in the resulting assembler code.
> Please see for reference:
> https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.7.1/gcc/AVR-Built_002din-Functions.html

Well, this is the fpc mailing list ...
How about asking the gcc guys that question?

You could also easily fetch the gcc source code and 'grep' it.

$ cd gcc-src
$ grep -r * "_builtin_avr_delay_cycles"

And if that doesn't help, write a short C code snippet using that
function and then call the compiler like this:

$ arm-gcc -nostdinc -c -S yoursnippet.c

That will leave the asm (.s or .S) file for you to look at.

> >> For point 3 there is a very good explanation in German at
> >> http://www.avr-asm-tutorial.net/avr_de/zeitschleifen/index.html.
> >>
> >> The wicked thing is the calculation of the cpu cycles. The C
> >> implementation uses floating point arithmetics wich is evaluated at
> >> compile time. It doesn't work with wait times which are calculated at
> >> runtime.
> > Why not use calculated constants? The compiler can evaluate simple
> > arithmetics at compile time:
> >
> > const
> >   sclk = int(round(SYSTEM_CLOCK / 42));
> >
> > The resulting number will be as close to the float value as possible.
> FPC doesn't support floating point on AVR; thus no floating point
> constants are allowed, even if they can be evaluated to an integer
> expression at compile time. FPC obviously first checks types and then
> does optimization on known types.
> 
> Thus only this code is valid on AVR:
> const
>   sclk = SYSTEM_CLOCK div 42;

OK, good to know.

> The question isn't how to calculate this but how to fit it into a word
> boundary for function call without loosing required accuracy.

I don't understand. Fitting in a word boundary would be done using a
compiler switch in code, IIRC "{$align 2}" or similar. If that's true
for function implementations isn't clear, I cannot image it is. If you
want to use Assembler code in Pascal there is documentation in the
programmers manual, chapter 3.


-- 
Marc Santhoff 

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Re: [fpc-pascal] AVR Busy Wait implementation

[Michael Schnell]

On 01/15/2016 07:48 AM, Christo Crause wrote:


The focus of the code is to get accurate delays down to a few cpu cycles.

This is impossible when running in any normal OS.(Of course you can run 
an fpc project "bare bone" without an OS),


-Michael
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Re: [fpc-pascal] AVR Busy Wait implementation

[Michael Schnell]

The Linux sleep system call provides a microsecond "busy" wait ,but only 
when used with root privilege .


-Michael
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Re: [fpc-pascal] AVR Busy Wait implementation

[Marc Santhoff]

On Fr, 2016-01-15 at 12:55 +0100, Michael Schnell wrote:
> On 01/15/2016 07:48 AM, Christo Crause wrote:
> >
> > The focus of the code is to get accurate delays down to a few cpu cycles.
> >
> This is impossible when running in any normal OS.(Of course you can run 
> an fpc project "bare bone" without an OS),

Which is generally the case on AVR. Those are 8 Bit µControllers having
a 32 Bit core.

If there is any type of OS that would be mostly FreeRTOS (if that fits,
not sure) or NutOS , µCOSII, or maybe even Contiki.

Haven't seen any type of minimalized Linux yet, although it could exist.
Common ATmega controllers have 2 kB of RAM.

-- 
Marc Santhoff 

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Re: [fpc-pascal] AVR Busy Wait implementation

[Sven Barth]

Am 15.01.2016 18:10 schrieb "Michael Schnell" :
>
> On 01/15/2016 07:48 AM, Christo Crause wrote:
>>
>>
>> The focus of the code is to get accurate delays down to a few cpu cycles.
>>
> This is impossible when running in any normal OS.(Of course you can run
an fpc project "bare bone" without an OS),

Depends on the OS. E.g. in our microkernel based realtime OS you can run a
process at realtime priority (thus avoiding the scheduler) and if you then
avoid kernel calls by e.g. using an assembler loop you can wait eater
accurately. And our OS runs normal applications as well (e.g. fpc :P ).

Regards,
Sven
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Re: [fpc-pascal] AVR Busy Wait implementation

[Simon Ameis]

Am 14.01.2016 um 23:57 schrieb Marc Santhoff:
> On Do, 2016-01-14 at 21:33 +0100, Simon Ameis wrote:
>> In general I already know these documents; what I'm looking for is an
>> implementation of a busy wait, not how to use it.
>> For C/C++ it's easy to get the code files. But I don't know where to get
>> compiler built-in procedures for gcc or other language's compilers.
> If you want to write Pascal code and don not need nano seconds accuracy,
> you have no need to now compiler internals. Only use time values and the
> divider factors.
I don't talk of FPC compiler internals but of gcc compiler internals.
E.g. the C implementation uses a compiler specific procedure
__builtin_avr_delay_cycles; I can't find a source to get known how it is
inlined in the resulting assembler code.
Please see for reference:
https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.7.1/gcc/AVR-Built_002din-Functions.html

The same is true for Basic.
>> The algorithm itself isn't that complicated:
>> 1. assume you know how fast the cpu is (e.g. 1 MHz, 12 MHz or what ever
>> fixed value)
>> 2. calculate cpu cycles for given time to wait: cycle count := time to
>> wait / (1/(cpu speed in MHz))
> In cas of AVR you need to use the prescalers value, too. Look in the
> datasheet for the chip used, it has good information and code samples
> (although in C and Assembler).
>
>> 3. call a loop with known cpu cycle usage
>>
>> Point 1 a fixed cpu speed is assumed for ease and compile time
>> optimization (in fact you always need to know the speed of the clock
>> source as it can't be determined by the MCU).
> There is normally a definition set in the Makefile or in the C-Code. And
> since you are building the firmware code you should now it's name.
>
> sth. like
>
> #define SYSTEM_CLOCK 1600ULL
>
> In Pascal this would be a constant:
>
> const
>   SYSTEM_CLOCK = 1600;
>
> This constant can well be used in any calculation.
>
>> For point 3 there is a very good explanation in German at
>> http://www.avr-asm-tutorial.net/avr_de/zeitschleifen/index.html.
>>
>> The wicked thing is the calculation of the cpu cycles. The C
>> implementation uses floating point arithmetics wich is evaluated at
>> compile time. It doesn't work with wait times which are calculated at
>> runtime.
> Why not use calculated constants? The compiler can evaluate simple
> arithmetics at compile time:
>
> const
>   sclk = int(round(SYSTEM_CLOCK / 42));
>
> The resulting number will be as close to the float value as possible.
FPC doesn't support floating point on AVR; thus no floating point
constants are allowed, even if they can be evaluated to an integer
expression at compile time. FPC obviously first checks types and then
does optimization on known types.

Thus only this code is valid on AVR:
const
  sclk = SYSTEM_CLOCK div 42;

The question isn't how to calculate this but how to fit it into a word
boundary for function call without loosing required accuracy.
>> Am 12.01.2016 um 14:54 schrieb Marc Santhoff:
>>> On Mo, 2016-01-11 at 23:19 +0100, Simon Ameis wrote:
 Hello,

 has anyone already written a busy wait procedure for AVR or any other
 embedded processors?
 I'm currently facing issues converting Arduino's calculation of time
 (millisecons/microseconds) to cpu cycles as they rely on compile time
 elimination of floating point calculation.
>>> No, but I would search something published freely or having a fitting
>>> license like BSD and translate it to Pascal.
>>>
>>> Look there for eample:
>>> https://www.mikrocontroller.net/articles/AVR
>>>
>>> There are lot of projects, the complicated part will be to find the
>>> license. But if you write soemthing inspired by existing code but do it
>>> yourself, imho will be OK.
>>>
>>> Marc
>>>
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Re: [fpc-pascal] AVR Busy Wait implementation

[Simon Ameis]

Am 15.01.2016 um 10:38 schrieb Michael Schnell:
> The Linux sleep system call provides a microsecond "busy" wait ,but
> only when used with root privilege .
Nice to know, but I asked for an AVR implementation.
Although I've seen a report describing an ARM emulation on AVR running
Linux I don't think thats what is usefull for just delaying some
milliseconds.
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Re: [fpc-pascal] AVR Busy Wait implementation

[Marc Santhoff]

On Do, 2016-01-14 at 21:33 +0100, Simon Ameis wrote:
> In general I already know these documents; what I'm looking for is an
> implementation of a busy wait, not how to use it.
> For C/C++ it's easy to get the code files. But I don't know where to get
> compiler built-in procedures for gcc or other language's compilers.

If you want to write Pascal code and don not need nano seconds accuracy,
you have no need to now compiler internals. Only use time values and the
divider factors.

> The algorithm itself isn't that complicated:
> 1. assume you know how fast the cpu is (e.g. 1 MHz, 12 MHz or what ever
> fixed value)
> 2. calculate cpu cycles for given time to wait: cycle count := time to
> wait / (1/(cpu speed in MHz))

In cas of AVR you need to use the prescalers value, too. Look in the
datasheet for the chip used, it has good information and code samples
(although in C and Assembler).

> 3. call a loop with known cpu cycle usage
> 
> Point 1 a fixed cpu speed is assumed for ease and compile time
> optimization (in fact you always need to know the speed of the clock
> source as it can't be determined by the MCU).

There is normally a definition set in the Makefile or in the C-Code. And
since you are building the firmware code you should now it's name.

sth. like

#define SYSTEM_CLOCK 1600ULL

In Pascal this would be a constant:

const
  SYSTEM_CLOCK = 1600;

This constant can well be used in any calculation.

> For point 3 there is a very good explanation in German at
> http://www.avr-asm-tutorial.net/avr_de/zeitschleifen/index.html.
> 
> The wicked thing is the calculation of the cpu cycles. The C
> implementation uses floating point arithmetics wich is evaluated at
> compile time. It doesn't work with wait times which are calculated at
> runtime.

Why not use calculated constants? The compiler can evaluate simple
arithmetics at compile time:

const
  sclk = int(round(SYSTEM_CLOCK / 42));

The resulting number will be as close to the float value as possible.

> Am 12.01.2016 um 14:54 schrieb Marc Santhoff:
> > On Mo, 2016-01-11 at 23:19 +0100, Simon Ameis wrote:
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> has anyone already written a busy wait procedure for AVR or any other
> >> embedded processors?
> >> I'm currently facing issues converting Arduino's calculation of time
> >> (millisecons/microseconds) to cpu cycles as they rely on compile time
> >> elimination of floating point calculation.
> > No, but I would search something published freely or having a fitting
> > license like BSD and translate it to Pascal.
> >
> > Look there for eample:
> > https://www.mikrocontroller.net/articles/AVR
> >
> > There are lot of projects, the complicated part will be to find the
> > license. But if you write soemthing inspired by existing code but do it
> > yourself, imho will be OK.
> >
> > Marc
> >
> 
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-- 
Marc Santhoff 

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Re: [fpc-pascal] AVR Busy Wait implementation

[Christo Crause]

There is a lot of useful information in avr-gcc code, once you can see past
the peculiarities of C. See the implementation of avr-gcc's delay here:
cvs.savannah.gnu.org/viewvc/avr-libc/include/util/delay.h and delay_basic.h
in the same folder. Basically they use op codes with fixed cpu cycles to
construct the inside of the loop and use compile time constants to
calculate the number of iterations required for a delay. The focus of the
code is to get accurate delays down to a few cpu cycles.
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Re: [fpc-pascal] AVR Busy Wait implementation

[Simon Ameis]

In general I already know these documents; what I'm looking for is an
implementation of a busy wait, not how to use it.
For C/C++ it's easy to get the code files. But I don't know where to get
compiler built-in procedures for gcc or other language's compilers.

The algorithm itself isn't that complicated:
1. assume you know how fast the cpu is (e.g. 1 MHz, 12 MHz or what ever
fixed value)
2. calculate cpu cycles for given time to wait: cycle count := time to
wait / (1/(cpu speed in MHz))
3. call a loop with known cpu cycle usage

Point 1 a fixed cpu speed is assumed for ease and compile time
optimization (in fact you always need to know the speed of the clock
source as it can't be determined by the MCU).
For point 3 there is a very good explanation in German at
http://www.avr-asm-tutorial.net/avr_de/zeitschleifen/index.html.

The wicked thing is the calculation of the cpu cycles. The C
implementation uses floating point arithmetics wich is evaluated at
compile time. It doesn't work with wait times which are calculated at
runtime.

Am 12.01.2016 um 14:54 schrieb Marc Santhoff:
> On Mo, 2016-01-11 at 23:19 +0100, Simon Ameis wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> has anyone already written a busy wait procedure for AVR or any other
>> embedded processors?
>> I'm currently facing issues converting Arduino's calculation of time
>> (millisecons/microseconds) to cpu cycles as they rely on compile time
>> elimination of floating point calculation.
> No, but I would search something published freely or having a fitting
> license like BSD and translate it to Pascal.
>
> Look there for eample:
> https://www.mikrocontroller.net/articles/AVR
>
> There are lot of projects, the complicated part will be to find the
> license. But if you write soemthing inspired by existing code but do it
> yourself, imho will be OK.
>
> Marc
>

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Re: [fpc-pascal] AVR Busy Wait implementation

[Marc Santhoff]

On Mo, 2016-01-11 at 23:19 +0100, Simon Ameis wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> has anyone already written a busy wait procedure for AVR or any other
> embedded processors?
> I'm currently facing issues converting Arduino's calculation of time
> (millisecons/microseconds) to cpu cycles as they rely on compile time
> elimination of floating point calculation.

No, but I would search something published freely or having a fitting
license like BSD and translate it to Pascal.

Look there for eample:
https://www.mikrocontroller.net/articles/AVR

There are lot of projects, the complicated part will be to find the
license. But if you write soemthing inspired by existing code but do it
yourself, imho will be OK.

Marc

-- 
Marc Santhoff 

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