Re: [fpc-pascal] TurboVision is reborn as FOSS (again)

[gabor via fpc-pascal]

W dniu 2020-12-26 o 16:34, Tomas Hajny via fpc-pascal pisze:

On 2020-12-26 15:45, gabor via fpc-pascal wrote:

W dniu 2020-12-22 o 04:57, Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-pascal pisze:


  .
  .

Very interesting. But in a future version of the FV (or other TUI
framework) apart from migrating from objects to classes, using
component streaming, collections, etc...  it would be good if the unit
"drivers" were more abstract and not strictly dependent on Video,
Mouse and Keyboard units. Then it will be possible to create a driver
that, for example, renders the screen buffer in a win32-gdi window, or
even in html5 canvas or LCL.


There's nothing preventing you to implement unit video in these 
environments, IMHO.


Of course, but then we need to finish what Charlie started - unicode. 
And think about possibility of including multiple drivers in single 
executable.


Michał.
--
___
fpc-pascal maillist  -  fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org
https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal

Re: [fpc-pascal] TurboVision is reborn as FOSS (again)

[Tomas Hajny via fpc-pascal]

On 2020-12-26 15:45, gabor via fpc-pascal wrote:

W dniu 2020-12-22 o 04:57, Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-pascal pisze:


 .
 .

Very interesting. But in a future version of the FV (or other TUI
framework) apart from migrating from objects to classes, using
component streaming, collections, etc...  it would be good if the unit
"drivers" were more abstract and not strictly dependent on Video,
Mouse and Keyboard units. Then it will be possible to create a driver
that, for example, renders the screen buffer in a win32-gdi window, or
even in html5 canvas or LCL.


There's nothing preventing you to implement unit video in these 
environments, IMHO.


Tomas
___
fpc-pascal maillist  -  fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org
https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal

Re: [fpc-pascal] TurboVision is reborn as FOSS (again)

[gabor via fpc-pascal]

W dniu 2020-12-22 o 04:57, Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-pascal pisze:

Anyway, any interest to develop Free Vision further is very welcome one,
so we can move it from past tense to a future one. I still think text mode
UI for console and terminals still has a place, but sadly the current FV
implementation doesn't necessarily plays well on some Un*x terminals (it's
highly dependent on the font, and many other factors), also a mono mode is
sorely missing, which is a problem for both some modern and retro use
cases. And yeah, on the high-end, Unicode would be needed.


Speaking of Unicode, I have started working on adding Unicode support to 
the keyboard, video and mouse units (which are used internally by FV) in 
the unicodekvm branch. So, if anyone is interested in adding Unicode 
support to FV, take a look at this branch.




Very interesting. But in a future version of the FV (or other TUI 
framework) apart from migrating from objects to classes, using component 
streaming, collections, etc...  it would be good if the unit "drivers" 
were more abstract and not strictly dependent on Video, Mouse and 
Keyboard units. Then it will be possible to create a driver that, for 
example, renders the screen buffer in a win32-gdi window, or even in 
html5 canvas or LCL.


Michał
--
___
fpc-pascal maillist  -  fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org
https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal

Re: [fpc-pascal] TurboVision is reborn as FOSS (again)

[gabor via fpc-pascal]

W dniu 2020-12-23 o 14:27, Graeme Geldenhuys via fpc-pascal pisze:

On 22/12/2020 10:20 pm, gabor via fpc-pascal wrote:

Sorry, I keep mistaking code point for character. I thought that the
code point is a value in the range 0..10. I don't think I fully
understand Unicode...


Here in an example:
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combining_character

Two or more code points combined can form a "single character" when
rendered on screen or paper.

Sometimes you can replace those with a single "precomposed character" too.
The Unicode standard includes many of them, but not all.

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precomposed_character


Hope that helps.



Thanks, that is very helpful. But if I understand correctly, each such 
combination of code points can be properly represented by one code point 
(NFC normalization).


Michał.

___
fpc-pascal maillist  -  fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org
https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal

Re: [fpc-pascal] TurboVision is reborn as FOSS (again)

[Jean SUZINEAU via fpc-pascal]

Amazing !

___
fpc-pascal maillist  -  fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org
https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal

Re: [fpc-pascal] TurboVision is reborn as FOSS (again)

[Sven Barth via fpc-pascal]

Am 23.12.2020 um 18:10 schrieb Travis Siegel via fpc-pascal:



On 12/22/2020 11:43 AM, Markus Greim via fpc-pascal wrote:

Wow..

Programming languages I worked with in the last 40 years:

12. SPIN


When you say spin, I'm assuming you're talking about the parallax 
propeller boards programming language.  The propeller 2 is coming out 
shortly (already out for early adopters), and I am anxiously awaiting 
the day I can get my hands on one.  I've built all kinds of projects 
with the propeller 1 board, the first of which was an FM radio.


But, to put this (somewhat) on topic, I've been wondering how 
complicated it would be to port FPC to the propeller 2 board, since 
they now have GCC ported, I would absolutely love to be able to 
program the propeller boards in pascal.  I do have a couple of their 
java stamps, those are interesting, and they do have a micro python 
that can be run on the propeller 2 boards, so adding pascal should be 
doable, I'm just not sure how much work it would take, but it would be 
nice to have another language to add to the mix.




With GCC being available and there existing a port of binutils it would 
in principle be possible to implement a cross compiler of FPC. :)


Regards,
Sven
___
fpc-pascal maillist  -  fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org
https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal

Re: [fpc-pascal] TurboVision is reborn as FOSS (again)

[Liam Proven via fpc-pascal]

On Wed, 23 Dec 2020 at 19:25,  wrote:

> As you may know, Niklaus Wirth developed Oberon as a successor of Pascal.
> Its near identical to Pascal, just yet another name.

Indeed. There is a somewhat active mailing list over on:
ETH Oberon and related systems 

As I understand it, Wirth had some fairly radical ideas about upgrade
Algol-60, but the Algol committee didn't like them and went with
Adriaan van Wijngaarden's proposal instead, creating Algol-68, causing
"shock, horror and dissent" and leading one computer scientist to read
the huge report trying to find what "language was hidden inside of
it".

It was more or less the end of Algol. Wirth released his proposal as
Algol-W and later refined it into a new language, named after great
French philosopher-mathematician Blaise Pascal.

Later came Modula, which is Pascal with modules, and then Modula-2. So
in a way, Modula was Pascal 2 and Modula-2 is Pascal 3.

(Modula-3 was someone else, so outside the sequence.)

Acorn, the British company who invented the ARM chip, tried to develop
a whole new OS for the new computer in Modula-2, but failed. Instead,
a last-ditch skunkworks effort to modernise their 6502 machines' OS,
MOS, resulted in Arthur, renamed RISC OS in version 2. It is still
alive and maintained today and there is a FOSS fork of it which runs
on the Raspberry Pi. This came up recently over on the FPC web fora.

After building the OS of his Lilith workstation in Modula-2, Wirth
realised it was not ideal for OS development and built Oberon (the
language) for his Ceres workstation workstation instead.

Oberon therefore could be seen as Pascal 4!

> Its not only a compiler but also a development environment, including an 
> editor and also an own OS and GUI !

Indeed. I've been trying to get people on the Oberon mailing list
interested in the idea of a native port of Oberon for the Raspberry
Pi. The language compiler can target ARM.

The slight snag is that the original Oberon OS only supports 1 CPU and
has no threading. There are multiple successor languages to Oberon.

First, Wirth and collaborators did Oberon-2 -- so that, in a way, is Pascal 5.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberon-2

Then another, Active Oberon (Pascal 6?) which also has its own OS
called AOS, A2 and sometimes Bluebottle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Oberon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluebottle_OS

A derivative of Oberon 2, minus the OS, is sold as a Windows
development environment called Component Pascal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Component_Pascal

And finally, Wirth's latest iteration is Oberon-07, which is derived
from the original Oberon, not from Oberon 2 or Active Oberon. So I
suppose the version numbering finally converges and Oberon-07 is also
Pascal 7.

A2/Bluebottle OS used to have a StrongARM version, so I think getting
it running on modern ARM hardware would not be impossible, and might
attract a much larger audience than the expensive FPGA boards that
Project Oberon 2018 currently runs on:
http://www.projectoberon.net/ostation/OberonStationQR.pdf

I wrote about it here:
https://www.theregister.com/Print/2015/12/02/pi_versus_oberton/

> He developed it with Gutknecht mainly at the Xerox PARC labs, long before 
> Steve Jobs and Bill Gates made their own copies of the ALTO work-station.

Yup. Good summary/overview here:
http://ignorethecode.net/blog/2009/04/22/oberon/


> P.S. **) don't mix RISC-5 up with the now popular RISC-V architecture. Wirth 
> is a genius, but has never
> a lucky hand for finding good and unique names for his projects. So from
> Algol to Pascal to Modula to Oberon to Oberon-2 to A2 to Project Oberon...

Oberon now runs on RISC-V as well:
https://github.com/solbjorg/oberon-riscv




-- 
Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
___
fpc-pascal maillist  -  fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org
https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal

Re: [fpc-pascal] TurboVision is reborn as FOSS (again)

[greim--- via fpc-pascal]

Travis, 


I was working with the Propeller1 for many years We realized a commercial 
project with it . See 
http://www.schleibinger.com/cmsimple/en/?Setting_and_Maturity:Ultrasonic_Setting_Measurement


It works very reliable. 


In June, I have got my first Propeller2 board from Parallax. 
Really an impressive chip. Getting all relevant info
and testing and evaluating all the different development platforms is still 
demanding. 
But situation is getting better each day. 


Pascal on the Propeller itself would be possible. There are CPM2.2 emulator for 
the Propeller around, so
TurboPascal 3.0 should work. But with all the CP/M and Z80 emulator overhead. 


As you may know, Niklaus Wirth developed Oberon as a successor of Pascal. 
Its near identical to Pascal, just yet another name. 


Its not only a compiler but also a development environment, including an editor 
and also an own OS and GUI ! 
He developed it with Gutknecht mainly at the Xerox PARC labs, long before Steve 
Jobs and Bill Gates made their own copies of the ALTO work-station. 


The required resources are minimal. In 2013 Wirth developed an own RISC 
processor on a FPGA
He published the Verilog and also the Oberon code, because Oberon is written in 
Oberon (!)
The whole compiler, editor, OS, GUI, screen driver, mouse control, etc has less 
then 10.000 lines of Oberon code !!!
That is near nothing, 
See
http://people.inf.ethz.ch/wirth/
and
http://www.projectoberon.com/


I realized this project on a FPGA for myself as proof of concept. 
It worked finally, but handling the Xilinx development software was (and is 
still) a mess. 
Later I translated the according PC emulator of Peter de Wachter from C to 
FreePascal. 


The RISC-5 ** architecture of Wirth is quite simple and I would see
no real problem to adapt the Oberon system to the Propeller2. 


The 3 main obstacles: 


1. There is no divider in the COGs, but I guess its possible to use the CORDIC 
divider instead.


2. The RAM space of the Propeller2 is too small, OBERON requires 1 MByte of RAM 
mainly for the video buffer. 
The Propeller2 is supporting some RAM extension, so also this should work. 
As far as I can see know, this would be the only necessary hardware extension 
the the P2 evaluation board. 


3. RISC-5 has a floating point adder, multiplier and divider. So any emulator 
required. 


Porting the core compiler called OBERON-0 to the propeller would be the most 
complicated thing and 
OBERON-0 is using no floating point math. 
All other things should be easier, I guess. 
Finally we would get a 8 core OBERON computer


Many Christmas dreams...


Regards
Markus


P.S. **) don't mix RISC-5 up with the now popular RISC-V architecture. Wirth is 
a genius, but has never
a lucky hand for finding good and unique names for his projects. So from 
Algol to Pascal to Modula to Oberon to Oberon-2 to A2 to Project Oberon...

--- original message ---
On December 23, 2020, 6:10 PM GMT+1 tsie...@softcon.com wrote:





On 12/22/2020 11:43 AM, Markus Greim
via fpc-pascal wrote:


> Wow..



> Programming languages I worked with in the last 40 years: 


> 12. SPIN
> 




When you say spin, I'm assuming you're talking about the parallax
propeller boards programming language. The propeller 2 is coming
out shortly (already out for early adopters), and I am anxiously
awaiting the day I can get my hands on one. I've built all kinds
of projects with the propeller 1 board, the first of which was an
FM radio.

But, to put this (somewhat) on topic, I've been wondering how
complicated it would be to port FPC to the propeller 2 board,
since they now have GCC ported, I would absolutely love to be able
to program the propeller boards in pascal. I do have a couple of
their java stamps, those are interesting, and they do have a micro
python that can be run on the propeller 2 boards, so adding pascal
should be doable, I'm just not sure how much work it would take,
but it would be nice to have another language to add to the mix.
--- end of original message ---___
fpc-pascal maillist  -  fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org
https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal

Re: [fpc-pascal] TurboVision is reborn as FOSS (again)

[Travis Siegel via fpc-pascal]

On 12/22/2020 11:43 AM, Markus Greim via fpc-pascal wrote:

Wow..

Programming languages I worked with in the last 40 years:

12. SPIN


When you say spin, I'm assuming you're talking about the parallax 
propeller boards programming language.  The propeller 2 is coming out 
shortly (already out for early adopters), and I am anxiously awaiting 
the day I can get my hands on one.  I've built all kinds of projects 
with the propeller 1 board, the first of which was an FM radio.


But, to put this (somewhat) on topic, I've been wondering how 
complicated it would be to port FPC to the propeller 2 board, since they 
now have GCC ported, I would absolutely love to be able to program the 
propeller boards in pascal.  I do have a couple of their java stamps, 
those are interesting, and they do have a micro python that can be run 
on the propeller 2 boards, so adding pascal should be doable, I'm just 
not sure how much work it would take, but it would be nice to have 
another language to add to the mix.



___
fpc-pascal maillist  -  fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org
https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal

Re: [fpc-pascal] TurboVision is reborn as FOSS (again)

[Graeme Geldenhuys via fpc-pascal]

On 22/12/2020 10:20 pm, gabor via fpc-pascal wrote:
> Sorry, I keep mistaking code point for character. I thought that the 
> code point is a value in the range 0..10. I don't think I fully 
> understand Unicode...

Here in an example:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combining_character

Two or more code points combined can form a "single character" when
rendered on screen or paper.

Sometimes you can replace those with a single "precomposed character" too.
The Unicode standard includes many of them, but not all.

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precomposed_character


Hope that helps.

Regards,
  Graeme

-- 
fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

My public PGP key:  http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp
___
fpc-pascal maillist  -  fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org
https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal

Re: [fpc-pascal] TurboVision is reborn as FOSS (again)

[Markus Greim via fpc-pascal]

Wow..


I am impressed... I hope my PASCAL is better then my English (first foreign 
language: Latin (for 7
years), 2nd English (6 years), 3rd ancient Greek (3 years)...) 


Programming languages I worked with in the last 40 years: 


1. Basic first on a Tektronix 4050 and a TRS-80 about 1979
2. Fortran batch jobs on a CDC Cyber 205 
3. PASCAL first on a DEC VAX 780 about 1986
4. PDC Prolog on MS-DOS
5. Assembler 
6. C
8. Perl and others on Linux from 1998
9. Java
10. Python 
11. PHP
12. SPIN

n. ERLANG <- most recently


aside FORTRAN I earned some money programming in all languages above..


Totally off topic, but it is Christmas time..

Kind Regards


Markus

--- original message ---
On December 22, 2020, 1:03 PM GMT+1 fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org wrote:

On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 at 22:11, Travis Siegel via fpc-pascal
 wrote:

>>

>> I don't know what non native english speakers are taught, nor can I address 
>> the folks across the pond, but here in the Us at least, has denotes 
>> currently exists, while had indicates past tense, I.E. no longer exists. 
>> Combining the two is where it gets dicy, and is generally avoided for 
>> syntactical reasons.


> FWIW... I'm (among other things) a qualified teacher of English as a

> second language. "Has had" and "had had" are 100% genuine correct

> English tenses, called the present perfect and past perfect

> respectively.


> Simple present: FPC _has_ a console-mode IDE -- now, it possesses one.

> Simple past: FPC _had_ a console-mode IDE -- it used to, but this

> state ended in the past; it no longer does.

> Present perfect: FPC _has had_ a console-mode IDE -- it has one, and

> the time it started to have one is a significant time ago.

> Past perfect: FPC _had had_ a console-mode IDE -- it used to have one

> a long time ago, but it stopped having it a long time ago.


> I will not itemise all the other alternatives. There is an informal

> competition as to how many tenses it is possible to create in English,

> and the record is some 120 different ones, and 144 if you include

> passive-voice constructions. There are about a dozen in common use.


> FPC has had a console-mode IDE means that there is one now and that

> there has been one for a considerable time. I presume this is what

> Nikolay meant. I did not know and I apologize for my ignorance of

> this.


> -- 

> Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven

> Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com

> Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven

> UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

> ___

> fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org

> https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
--- end of original message ---___
fpc-pascal maillist  -  fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org
https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal

Re: [fpc-pascal] TurboVision is reborn as FOSS (again)

[Sven Barth via fpc-pascal]

Am 22.12.2020 um 13:02 schrieb Liam Proven via fpc-pascal:

On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 at 22:11, Travis Siegel via fpc-pascal
 wrote:

I don't know what non native english speakers are taught, nor can I address the 
folks across the pond, but here in the Us at least, has denotes currently 
exists, while had indicates past tense, I.E. no longer exists.  Combining the 
two is where it gets dicy, and is generally avoided for syntactical reasons.

FWIW... I'm (among other things) a qualified teacher of English as a
second language. "Has had" and "had had" are 100% genuine correct
English tenses, called the present perfect and past perfect
respectively.

Simple present: FPC _has_ a console-mode IDE -- now, it possesses one.
Simple past: FPC _had_ a console-mode IDE -- it used to, but this
state ended in the past; it no longer does.
Present perfect: FPC _has had_ a console-mode IDE -- it has one, and
the time it started to have one is a significant time ago.
Past perfect: FPC _had had_  a console-mode IDE -- it used to have one
a long time ago, but it stopped having it a long time ago.

I will not itemise all the other alternatives. There is an informal
competition as to how many tenses it is possible to create in English,
and the record is some 120 different ones, and 144 if you include
passive-voice constructions. There are about a dozen in common use.


That is definitely a shocking amount. O.o

FPC has had a console-mode IDE means that there is one now and that
there has been one for a considerable time. I presume this is what
Nikolay meant. I did not know and I apologize for my ignorance of
this.


Thank you for confirming that Nikolay (and I) had the right gist 
regarding the time. ;)


And no need to apologize. Most users will probably use FPC together with 
Lazarus and thus don't come into contact with the textmode IDE, but 
nervetheless it /is/ there and can be used, though as this thread showed 
it can (and probably should) be improve. :)


Regards,
Sven
___
fpc-pascal maillist  -  fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org
https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal

Re: [fpc-pascal] TurboVision is reborn as FOSS (again)

[gabor via fpc-pascal]

W dniu 2020-12-22 o 11:13, Marco van de Voort via fpc-pascal pisze:
The problem is that multiple unicode codepoints might translate to one 
character. But that character might have variable width (1, 1.5, 2). And 
the rendering of codepoints to characters is output device (terminal, 
GUI canvas) dependent.


Sorry, I keep mistaking code point for character. I thought that the 
code point is a value in the range 0..10. I don't think I fully 
understand Unicode...


First and for all, I would keep the buffer private. This allows to keep 
the buffer in a format suitable to quickly convert to the output device, 
and access won't be simple array like anyway. This also abstracts final 
writing API and end device encoding.


Maybe have multiple arrays, one for one codepoint per character, and one 
larger ones for additional ones.


This way you can simply scan the larger array if there are additional 
ones, and if not, emit the primary one in a straightforward way.


But an off-screen drawing buffer would also be useful. For example, FV 
uses such a buffer to draw views (TDrawBuffer = Array [0..MaxViewWidth - 
1] Of Word).
Buffer declared as an array of records with character and color elements 
could be easily and quickly drawn in another buffer.


Michał.
___
fpc-pascal maillist  -  fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org
https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal

Re: [fpc-pascal] TurboVision is reborn as FOSS (again)

[Liam Proven via fpc-pascal]

On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 at 22:11, Travis Siegel via fpc-pascal
 wrote:
>
> I don't know what non native english speakers are taught, nor can I address 
> the folks across the pond, but here in the Us at least, has denotes currently 
> exists, while had indicates past tense, I.E. no longer exists.  Combining the 
> two is where it gets dicy, and is generally avoided for syntactical reasons.

FWIW... I'm (among other things) a qualified teacher of English as a
second language. "Has had" and "had had" are 100% genuine correct
English tenses, called the present perfect and past perfect
respectively.

Simple present: FPC _has_ a console-mode IDE -- now, it possesses one.
Simple past: FPC _had_ a console-mode IDE -- it used to, but this
state ended in the past; it no longer does.
Present perfect: FPC _has had_ a console-mode IDE -- it has one, and
the time it started to have one is a significant time ago.
Past perfect: FPC _had had_  a console-mode IDE -- it used to have one
a long time ago, but it stopped having it a long time ago.

I will not itemise all the other alternatives. There is an informal
competition as to how many tenses it is possible to create in English,
and the record is some 120 different ones, and 144 if you include
passive-voice constructions. There are about a dozen in common use.

FPC has had a console-mode IDE means that there is one now and that
there has been one for a considerable time. I presume this is what
Nikolay meant. I did not know and I apologize for my ignorance of
this.

-- 
Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
___
fpc-pascal maillist  -  fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org
https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal

Re: [fpc-pascal] TurboVision is reborn as FOSS (again)

[Marco van de Voort via fpc-pascal]

Op 2020-12-22 om 00:42 schreef gabor via fpc-pascal:

W dniu 2020-12-21 o 23:41, Sven Barth via fpc-pascal pisze:
> The main restriction is that it only supports ShortString and thus has
> no Unicode support.

I wonder which type would be best suited to store a unicode character 
(code point) for the screen buffer?


type
  TScreenBuffer = array of record
    Character: TypeForUnicodeCodepoint;
    AttributeAndColor: TAttributeAndColor;
  end;


The problem is that multiple unicode codepoints might translate to one 
character. But that character might have variable width (1, 1.5, 2).  
And the rendering of codepoints to characters is output device 
(terminal, GUI canvas) dependent.


First and for all, I would keep the buffer private. This allows to keep 
the buffer in a format suitable to quickly convert to the output device, 
and access won't be simple array like anyway. This also abstracts final 
writing API and end device encoding.


Maybe have multiple arrays, one for one codepoint per character, and one 
larger ones for additional ones.


This way you can simply scan the larger array if there are additional 
ones, and if not, emit the primary one in a straightforward way.



___
fpc-pascal maillist  -  fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org
https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal

Re: [fpc-pascal] TurboVision is reborn as FOSS (again)

[Markus Greim via fpc-pascal]

FPC has had a Turbo Pascal-like console IDE for many years...


"has had" ?


AKAIK "has" 


I still used it yesterday. 

Grüße


Markus

--- original message ---
On December 20, 2020, 7:33 PM GMT+1 fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org wrote:


On 12/19/20 6:35 PM, Liam Proven via fpc-pascal wrote:

>> https://github.com/magiblot/tvision

>>

>> Someone enterprising could make a TurboPascal clone out of FPC. :-)

>>

> Meh. FPC has had a Turbo Pascal-like console IDE for many years. It uses Free 
> Vision, which is a pascal port of the C++ version of Turbo Vision (because 
> Borland didn't release their Pascal version under a free/open source license).


> https://wiki.freepascal.org/Free_Vision#Turbo_Vision


> Nikolay


> ___

> fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org

> https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
--- end of original message ---___
fpc-pascal maillist  -  fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org
https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal

Re: [fpc-pascal] TurboVision is reborn as FOSS (again)

[Markus Greim via fpc-pascal]

Hello Nikolay,


I am a German - so may be we are both "lost in translation"

Kind Regards


Markus

--- original message ---
On December 21, 2020, 10:17 AM GMT+1 nick...@gmail.com wrote:





On 12/21/20 10:42 AM, Markus Greim
wrote:


> FPC has had a Turbo Pascal-like console IDE for many> years...



> "has had" ?



> AKAIK "has" 



> I still used it yesterday. 




English is not my native language, but I think "has had" means it
still has it. If I had said "had" instead of "has had", it would
mean it had it in the past, but no longer has it. Please correct
me if I'm wrong.


Nikolay



> Grüße



> Markus




>> On December 20,>> 2020, 7:33 PM GMT+1 fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org>> 
>> wrote:



>> On 12/19/20 6:35 PM, Liam Proven via fpc-pascal wrote:

>>> > https://github.com/magiblot/tvision

>>> >

>>> > Someone enterprising could make a TurboPascal clone out>>> of FPC. :-)

>>> >

>>> Meh. FPC has had a Turbo Pascal-like console IDE for many>>> years. It uses 
>>> Free Vision, which is a pascal port of the>>> C++ version of Turbo Vision 
>>> (because Borland didn't release>>> their Pascal version under a free/open 
>>> source license).


>>> https://wiki.freepascal.org/Free_Vision#Turbo_Vision


>>> Nikolay


>>> ___

>>> fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org

>>> https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
--- end of original message ---___
fpc-pascal maillist  -  fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org
https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal

Re: [fpc-pascal] TurboVision is reborn as FOSS (again)

[Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-pascal]

On 12/22/20 2:39 AM, Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR) via fpc-pascal wrote:

Hi,

On Mon, 21 Dec 2020, Sven Barth via fpc-pascal wrote:


As long as one knows why a certain temporal construct is used there is
no problem and at least in Germany (or more specifically Bavaria) we
were taught that in masses.

As a native speaker of a language which only has three tenses and no
grammatical gender, it's difficult to decide if the twelve tenses of
English, or the three genders of German are the more confusing. :P
(Probably still the latter, tho'... ;) )

Anyway, any interest to develop Free Vision further is very welcome one,
so we can move it from past tense to a future one. I still think text mode
UI for console and terminals still has a place, but sadly the current FV
implementation doesn't necessarily plays well on some Un*x terminals (it's
highly dependent on the font, and many other factors), also a mono mode is
sorely missing, which is a problem for both some modern and retro use
cases. And yeah, on the high-end, Unicode would be needed.


Speaking of Unicode, I have started working on adding Unicode support to 
the keyboard, video and mouse units (which are used internally by FV) in 
the unicodekvm branch. So, if anyone is interested in adding Unicode 
support to FV, take a look at this branch.


Nikolay



Charlie

___
fpc-pascal maillist  -  fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org
https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
___
fpc-pascal maillist  -  fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org
https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal

Re: [fpc-pascal] TurboVision is reborn as FOSS (again)

[Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR) via fpc-pascal]

Hi,

On Mon, 21 Dec 2020, Sven Barth via fpc-pascal wrote:

> As long as one knows why a certain temporal construct is used there is
> no problem and at least in Germany (or more specifically Bavaria) we
> were taught that in masses. 

As a native speaker of a language which only has three tenses and no
grammatical gender, it's difficult to decide if the twelve tenses of
English, or the three genders of German are the more confusing. :P
(Probably still the latter, tho'... ;) )

Anyway, any interest to develop Free Vision further is very welcome one,
so we can move it from past tense to a future one. I still think text mode
UI for console and terminals still has a place, but sadly the current FV
implementation doesn't necessarily plays well on some Un*x terminals (it's
highly dependent on the font, and many other factors), also a mono mode is
sorely missing, which is a problem for both some modern and retro use
cases. And yeah, on the high-end, Unicode would be needed.

Charlie___
fpc-pascal maillist  -  fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org
https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal

Re: [fpc-pascal] TurboVision is reborn as FOSS (again)

[gabor via fpc-pascal]

W dniu 2020-12-21 o 23:41, Sven Barth via fpc-pascal pisze:
> The main restriction is that it only supports ShortString and thus has
> no Unicode support.

I wonder which type would be best suited to store a unicode character 
(code point) for the screen buffer?


type
  TScreenBuffer = array of record
Character: TypeForUnicodeCodepoint;
AttributeAndColor: TAttributeAndColor;
  end;

Michał
___
fpc-pascal maillist  -  fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org
https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal

Re: [fpc-pascal] TurboVision is reborn as FOSS (again)

[Sven Barth via fpc-pascal]

Travis Siegel via fpc-pascal  schrieb am
Mo., 21. Dez. 2020, 17:41:

> I don't know what non native english speakers are taught, nor can I
> address the folks across the pond, but here in the Us at least, has denotes
> currently exists, while had indicates past tense, I.E. no longer exists.
> Combining the two is where it gets dicy, and is generally avoided for
> syntactical reasons.
>
There is nothing dicy about combining them as "have" is just a normal verb
like anything else and thus can be used together with the "have/has/had"
temporal particle without any problems.
As long as one knows why a certain temporal construct is used there is no
problem and at least in Germany (or more specifically Bavaria) we were
taught that in masses.

Regards,
Sven

>
___
fpc-pascal maillist  -  fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org
https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal

Re: [fpc-pascal] TurboVision is reborn as FOSS (again)

[Sven Barth via fpc-pascal]

Liam Proven via fpc-pascal  schrieb am
Mo., 21. Dez. 2020, 18:11:

> On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 at 10:56, Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-pascal
>  wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 12/21/20 10:42 AM, Markus Greim wrote:
> >
> > FPC has had a Turbo Pascal-like console IDE for many years...
>
> Sorry about this. I did not get this email, only the replies to it.
>
> I was unaware of that!
>
> Is this conversion of TurboVision FOSS, then?
>

It's license *might* not count as FOSS, but it's distributed as part of FPC
(see $fpcdir/packages/fv).

The main restriction is that it only supports ShortString and thus has no
Unicode support.

Regards,
Sven

>
___
fpc-pascal maillist  -  fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org
https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal

Re: [fpc-pascal] TurboVision is reborn as FOSS (again)

[Graeme Geldenhuys via fpc-pascal]

On 21/12/2020 2:07 pm, Liam Proven via fpc-pascal wrote:
> Is this conversion of TurboVision FOSS, then?

Yes, it definitely is, otherwise it wouldn't be part of FPC. If you have
FPC install, you should be able to simply type 'fp' from the command prompt
and it should fire up the FreeVision Text IDE.

Here is a screenshot of the Text IDE from back in 2008, but it has been
around a LOT longer than that. :-)

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Pascal#Integrated_development_environments


Regards,
  Graeme

-- 
fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

My public PGP key:  http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp
___
fpc-pascal maillist  -  fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org
https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal

Re: [fpc-pascal] TurboVision is reborn as FOSS (again)

[Travis Siegel via fpc-pascal]

I don't know what non native english speakers are taught, nor can I 
address the folks across the pond, but here in the Us at least, has 
denotes currently exists, while had indicates past tense, I.E. no longer 
exists.  Combining the two is where it gets dicy, and is generally 
avoided for syntactical reasons.


On 12/21/2020 4:17 AM, Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-pascal wrote:



On 12/21/20 10:42 AM, Markus Greim wrote:

FPC has had a Turbo Pascal-like console IDE for many years...

"has had" ?

AKAIK "has"

I still used it yesterday.


English is not my native language, but I think "has had" means it 
still has it. If I had said "had" instead of "has had", it would mean 
it had it in the past, but no longer has it. Please correct me if I'm 
wrong.


Nikolay



Grüße

Markus
Sent from Front
On December 20, 2020, 7:33 PM GMT+1 fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org 
 wrote:



On 12/19/20 6:35 PM, Liam Proven via fpc-pascal wrote:


> https://github.com/magiblot/tvision 


>
> Someone enterprising could make a TurboPascal clone out of FPC. :-)
>
Meh. FPC has had a Turbo Pascal-like console IDE for many years. It 
uses Free Vision, which is a pascal port of the C++ version of 
Turbo Vision (because Borland didn't release their Pascal version 
under a free/open source license).


https://wiki.freepascal.org/Free_Vision#Turbo_Vision 



Nikolay

___
fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org 

https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal 



___
fpc-pascal maillist  -  fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org
https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
___
fpc-pascal maillist  -  fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org
https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal

Re: [fpc-pascal] TurboVision is reborn as FOSS (again)

[rvmartin2--- via fpc-pascal]

Sven Barth via fpc-pascal  wrote the following 
on 21/12/2020, 13:13:08:
> Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-pascal  schrieb am
> Mo., 21. Dez. 2020, 11:36:
> 
> >
> > On 12/21/20 10:42 AM, Markus Greim wrote:
> >
> > FPC has had a Turbo Pascal-like console IDE for many years...
> >
> > "has had" ?
> >
> > AKAIK "has"
> >
> > I still used it yesterday.
> >
> > English is not my native language, but I think "has had" means it still
> > has it. If I had said "had" instead of "has had", it would mean it had it
> > in the past, but no longer has it. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
> >
> 
> That's how I was taught it as well (with English not being my first
> language): "has had" means that the "having" started in the past and holds
> till now. "had had" would mean that it started in the past and ended
> somewhere less in the past and "had" alone is a specific point in the past.

"has had" is correct and good English.
Bob Martin in England
___
fpc-pascal maillist  -  fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org
https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal

Re: [fpc-pascal] TurboVision is reborn as FOSS (again)

[Liam Proven via fpc-pascal]

On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 at 10:56, Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-pascal
 wrote:
>
>
> On 12/21/20 10:42 AM, Markus Greim wrote:
>
> FPC has had a Turbo Pascal-like console IDE for many years...

Sorry about this. I did not get this email, only the replies to it.

I was unaware of that!

Is this conversion of TurboVision FOSS, then?

-- 
Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
___
fpc-pascal maillist  -  fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org
https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal

Re: [fpc-pascal] TurboVision is reborn as FOSS (again)

[Sven Barth via fpc-pascal]

Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-pascal  schrieb am
Mo., 21. Dez. 2020, 11:36:

>
> On 12/21/20 10:42 AM, Markus Greim wrote:
>
> FPC has had a Turbo Pascal-like console IDE for many years...
>
> "has had" ?
>
> AKAIK "has"
>
> I still used it yesterday.
>
> English is not my native language, but I think "has had" means it still
> has it. If I had said "had" instead of "has had", it would mean it had it
> in the past, but no longer has it. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
>

That's how I was taught it as well (with English not being my first
language): "has had" means that the "having" started in the past and holds
till now. "had had" would mean that it started in the past and ended
somewhere less in the past and "had" alone is a specific point in the past.

Regards,
Sven

>
___
fpc-pascal maillist  -  fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org
https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal

Re: [fpc-pascal] TurboVision is reborn as FOSS (again)

[Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-pascal]

On 12/21/20 10:42 AM, Markus Greim wrote:

FPC has had a Turbo Pascal-like console IDE for many years...

"has had" ?

AKAIK "has"

I still used it yesterday.


English is not my native language, but I think "has had" means it still 
has it. If I had said "had" instead of "has had", it would mean it had 
it in the past, but no longer has it. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


Nikolay



Grüße

Markus
Sent from Front
On December 20, 2020, 7:33 PM GMT+1 fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org 
 wrote:



On 12/19/20 6:35 PM, Liam Proven via fpc-pascal wrote:


> https://github.com/magiblot/tvision 


>
> Someone enterprising could make a TurboPascal clone out of FPC. :-)
>
Meh. FPC has had a Turbo Pascal-like console IDE for many years. It 
uses Free Vision, which is a pascal port of the C++ version of Turbo 
Vision (because Borland didn't release their Pascal version under a 
free/open source license).


https://wiki.freepascal.org/Free_Vision#Turbo_Vision 



Nikolay

___
fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org 

https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal 

___
fpc-pascal maillist  -  fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org
https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal

Re: [fpc-pascal] TurboVision is reborn as FOSS (again)

[Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-pascal]

On 12/19/20 6:35 PM, Liam Proven via fpc-pascal wrote:

https://github.com/magiblot/tvision

Someone enterprising could make a TurboPascal clone out of FPC. :-)

Meh. FPC has had a Turbo Pascal-like console IDE for many years. It uses 
Free Vision, which is a pascal port of the C++ version of Turbo Vision 
(because Borland didn't release their Pascal version under a free/open 
source license).


https://wiki.freepascal.org/Free_Vision#Turbo_Vision

Nikolay

___
fpc-pascal maillist  -  fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org
https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal

[fpc-pascal] TurboVision is reborn as FOSS (again)

[Liam Proven via fpc-pascal]

https://github.com/magiblot/tvision

Someone enterprising could make a TurboPascal clone out of FPC. :-)

-- 
Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
___
fpc-pascal maillist  -  fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org
https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal