Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs
I like the part where it's revealed that memory isn't always accurate when there's time to fact-check it. How familiar that is for me. The good side is that doggedly chasing possible solutions often reveals new insights through serendipity. Giving up early just plain isn't fun, but it helps to meet one's deadline! :) On Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 6:15 PM Syed Zaeem Hosain wrote: > Hi, Bertrand. > > (Sending this to the list to note what I did for my doc.) > > I have sent you the original FrameMaker book that I used, but I don't > think it will be a great answer for you! I opened this book on my other > system that has FM, and I see that I used the hypertext "newlink ..." and > "gotolink ..." mechanism to make it work in the PDF. > > Acrobat Pro will then output these as links in the PDF. (As a side-note, > other PDF generation tools will not work with FrameMaker to create links in > this manner though - that was the one test that has failed in my search for > a replacement for Adobe Acrobat!) > > I downloaded your Eiffel specification and I see that the amount of manual > work would be quite enormous ... even with brute-force global > search-and-replace approaches (which is what I now remember doing for my > much smaller document). > > And, of course, you had mentioned this issue in your original post. > > So, you may want to get Rick Quatro (one of the first responses to the > list) to develop a script to automate this - perhaps with an input control > file of all the terms (which could be easy to generate from the definition > paragraphs you mentioned) for that brute-force search-and-replace. > > If you asked him to make the solution general enough, it could be > something you could re-use easily in the future for this spec too. > > Z > > -Original Message- > From: Framers > On Behalf Of Syed Zaeem Hosain > Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 1:04 PM > To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. < > framers@lists.frameusers.com>; bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch; 'Shmuel > Wolfson' > Cc: me...@inf.ethz.ch > Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs > > Okay, I found the PDF, but on this system, I don't have FrameMaker > running, so I am not sure what I did (was eleven years ago ... and we went > to an on-line version afterwards!). I _think_ it was cross-references in > FrameMaker ... > > Bertrand, I can send the PDF to you to show the result if you want (not to > the list, since it will drop attachments) - if this is what you want to do, > please let me know and I will look for that FM book on another system. > > In this PDF, I did not underline the words, but the cursor changes in > Acrobat (to show that clicking on the word will take you elsewhere within > the document). Underlining would have been easy enough to add as well > though. > > Z > > As a completely separate BTW, if you put an underscore before and after > the word in emails (see -->), _some_ email systems will underline that word > in the email. The '*' makes it show in bold. > > -Original Message- > From: Framers > On Behalf Of Syed Zaeem Hosain > Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 12:52 PM > To: bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch; An email list for people using Adobe > FrameMaker software. ; 'Shmuel Wolfson' < > shmue...@gmail.com> > Cc: me...@inf.ethz.ch > Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs > > Hmmm, I seem to recall doing this in FrameMaker ... I will see if I can > find that document and remember how I did it. > > Used it in a glossary doc, so I may be able to send it along since it is > not proprietary information. > > Z > > -Original Message- > From: Framers > On Behalf Of Bertrand Meyer > Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 5:13 AM > To: 'Shmuel Wolfson' ; 'An email list for people > using Adobe FrameMaker software.' > Cc: me...@inf.ethz.ch > Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs > > No. Let me explain. This is the text of a language standard (the previous > version is an ISO standard, International Standards Organization). It is > written very rigorously. (It is the result of many years of laborious > effort by many people.) See > https://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-367.htm. > Some words have their ordinary meanings and others have meanings introduced > with a rigorous definition in the standard itself. In the previous version, > such words are underlined. For example, a sentence such as > > This particular beast might be a *cat* or it might be a *dog* or > it might be an *unclassified* beast. > > (I have the impression that the remailer removes underlining so I am using > asterisks, as in *underlined_word*, instead.) The example sentence uses > underlining to expressthat the underlined notions, "cat", "dog" and > "unclassified", have a formal definition somewhere in the text. > > Quite understandably, people have started to ask that all such underlined > elements should be links to the corresponding def
Re: [Framers] Oh for the Good Old Days
Ah! Good to know ... I will have to dig out my FM disks and install FM 8 somewhere. 😊 Thanks! Z -Original Message- From: Framers On Behalf Of Robert Lauriston Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 4:25 PM To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. Subject: Re: [Framers] Oh for the Good Old Days That's correct. The bizarre, broken UI was introduced in FM9. On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 4:21 PM Syed Zaeem Hosain wrote: > > I would also add that if you don't need the Unicode support for _some_ reason > (albeit doubtful in this day and age), then I liked the old UI in FM 7.2 as > being easier on my eyes! > > (Although I should ask: did FM 8 use that older UI? I.e., am I > misremembering that it changed in FM 9?) ___ This message is from the Framers mailing list Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/ Subscribe and unsubscribe at http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com ___ This message is from the Framers mailing list Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/ Subscribe and unsubscribe at http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com
Re: [Framers] Oh for the Good Old Days
That's correct. The bizarre, broken UI was introduced in FM9. On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 4:21 PM Syed Zaeem Hosain wrote: > > I would also add that if you don't need the Unicode support for _some_ reason > (albeit doubtful in this day and age), then I liked the old UI in FM 7.2 as > being easier on my eyes! > > (Although I should ask: did FM 8 use that older UI? I.e., am I misremembering > that it changed in FM 9?) ___ This message is from the Framers mailing list Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/ Subscribe and unsubscribe at http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com
Re: [Framers] Oh for the Good Old Days
I would also add that if you don't need the Unicode support for _some_ reason (albeit doubtful in this day and age), then I liked the old UI in FM 7.2 as being easier on my eyes! (Although I should ask: did FM 8 use that older UI? I.e., am I misremembering that it changed in FM 9?) Z -Original Message- From: Framers On Behalf Of Robert Lauriston Sent: Monday, October 5, 2020 12:05 PM To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. Subject: Re: [Framers] Oh for the Good Old Days The late OmniHelp developer Jeremy H. Griffith also thought FM8 was the classic. On Mon, Oct 5, 2020 at 11:30 AM wrote: > > It seems like most software programs have a "golden version" before > feature bloat or performance decline. For me, FrameMaker 8 was that > version. Good performance, especially with FrameScript and acceptable Unicode > support. > Don't get me wrong, there are some things to like about recent > versions, but I loved the simplicity of the pre-Adobe interface. ___ This message is from the Framers mailing list Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/ Subscribe and unsubscribe at http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com ___ This message is from the Framers mailing list Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/ Subscribe and unsubscribe at http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com
Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs
Hi, Bertrand. (Sending this to the list to note what I did for my doc.) I have sent you the original FrameMaker book that I used, but I don't think it will be a great answer for you! I opened this book on my other system that has FM, and I see that I used the hypertext "newlink ..." and "gotolink ..." mechanism to make it work in the PDF. Acrobat Pro will then output these as links in the PDF. (As a side-note, other PDF generation tools will not work with FrameMaker to create links in this manner though - that was the one test that has failed in my search for a replacement for Adobe Acrobat!) I downloaded your Eiffel specification and I see that the amount of manual work would be quite enormous ... even with brute-force global search-and-replace approaches (which is what I now remember doing for my much smaller document). And, of course, you had mentioned this issue in your original post. So, you may want to get Rick Quatro (one of the first responses to the list) to develop a script to automate this - perhaps with an input control file of all the terms (which could be easy to generate from the definition paragraphs you mentioned) for that brute-force search-and-replace. If you asked him to make the solution general enough, it could be something you could re-use easily in the future for this spec too. Z -Original Message- From: Framers On Behalf Of Syed Zaeem Hosain Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 1:04 PM To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. ; bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch; 'Shmuel Wolfson' Cc: me...@inf.ethz.ch Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs Okay, I found the PDF, but on this system, I don't have FrameMaker running, so I am not sure what I did (was eleven years ago ... and we went to an on-line version afterwards!). I _think_ it was cross-references in FrameMaker ... Bertrand, I can send the PDF to you to show the result if you want (not to the list, since it will drop attachments) - if this is what you want to do, please let me know and I will look for that FM book on another system. In this PDF, I did not underline the words, but the cursor changes in Acrobat (to show that clicking on the word will take you elsewhere within the document). Underlining would have been easy enough to add as well though. Z As a completely separate BTW, if you put an underscore before and after the word in emails (see -->), _some_ email systems will underline that word in the email. The '*' makes it show in bold. -Original Message- From: Framers On Behalf Of Syed Zaeem Hosain Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 12:52 PM To: bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch; An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. ; 'Shmuel Wolfson' Cc: me...@inf.ethz.ch Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs Hmmm, I seem to recall doing this in FrameMaker ... I will see if I can find that document and remember how I did it. Used it in a glossary doc, so I may be able to send it along since it is not proprietary information. Z -Original Message- From: Framers On Behalf Of Bertrand Meyer Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 5:13 AM To: 'Shmuel Wolfson' ; 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.' Cc: me...@inf.ethz.ch Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs No. Let me explain. This is the text of a language standard (the previous version is an ISO standard, International Standards Organization). It is written very rigorously. (It is the result of many years of laborious effort by many people.) See https://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-367.htm. Some words have their ordinary meanings and others have meanings introduced with a rigorous definition in the standard itself. In the previous version, such words are underlined. For example, a sentence such as This particular beast might be a *cat* or it might be a *dog* or it might be an *unclassified* beast. (I have the impression that the remailer removes underlining so I am using asterisks, as in *underlined_word*, instead.) The example sentence uses underlining to expressthat the underlined notions, "cat", "dog" and "unclassified", have a formal definition somewhere in the text. Quite understandably, people have started to ask that all such underlined elements should be links to the corresponding definitions. (Otherwise, the reader has to run searches all the time.) This kind of thing is needed for any normative text of that kind, which includes precise definitions. In FrameMaker terms, all the definitions are in paragraphs of one specific type (format in FrameMaker terminology), so the obvious thing to do from the writer's perspective would be to be able to select the target from a list of paragraphs of that type, as with cross-references. But cross-references don't work since they impose a format based on the target, not the source. -- BM -Original
Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs
He's already using markers. His issue is that there are thousands of them and he doesn't want to have to manually type everything out everytime he inserts a link to another location in the document. If I understood him correctly, what he wants is to be able to select which predefined target marker to go to from a drop-down list when inserting the marker to create the hypertext link instead of having to manually type it in each time he inserts the gotolink marker. This would have to be scripted. Neither the Hypertext Marker insert nor the general Marker Insert window provide a drop-down list for anything other than the type of marker or type of Hypertext command to make part of the marker. I suppose a brute force method would be to create the destination marker first, then find the first instance of the word or term you want to hyperlink to a definition, create your gotolink, copy the word or term including the marker, then do a search for the word or term and replace it with the information on the clipboard. In fact, I think that was the method recommended by Matt Sullivan when he described how to set up special markers for glossary terms and definitions in the article I linked to earlier in the thread. Except in Matt's solution, you can (I think) get it to open a non-modal window with the text of the definition at the spot so the user can just click the link, read the term in the pop-up, and close the pop-up without having to return the the original location in the document because you never left it. Or maybe that was one of Shlomo Perets TimeSavers. On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 12:06 PM Wim Hooghwinkel - idtp wrote: > Hi Bertrand, > > not sure if that will work, but did you try to use markers? Insert a > marker (of your own type) at the target location and create a link > (hyperlink or cross-ref) to that marker that displays the marker text. > Additional benefit is that it will also allow you to create an 'index' of > those markers in your publication. > > Else, best advise is to contact Rick Quatro and ask him to propose a > script that will help you to insert those newlink and gotolink markers in > asiple manner. He’s very good at that. A script is an investment, but ROI > is very quick. > > > Vriendelijke groet / Kind regards, > > Wim Hooghwinkel > > > ___ > > This message is from the Framers mailing list > > Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com > Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com > Archives located at > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/ > Subscribe and unsubscribe at > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com > Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com -- Lin Sims ___ This message is from the Framers mailing list Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/ Subscribe and unsubscribe at http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com
Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs
Hi Bertrand, not sure if that will work, but did you try to use markers? Insert a marker (of your own type) at the target location and create a link (hyperlink or cross-ref) to that marker that displays the marker text. Additional benefit is that it will also allow you to create an 'index' of those markers in your publication. Else, best advise is to contact Rick Quatro and ask him to propose a script that will help you to insert those newlink and gotolink markers in asiple manner. He’s very good at that. A script is an investment, but ROI is very quick. Vriendelijke groet / Kind regards, Wim Hooghwinkel ___ This message is from the Framers mailing list Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/ Subscribe and unsubscribe at http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com
