Re: Integrating table footnotes into chapter flow

[De Rosier, Edward]

Hi Alan,

I'm coming into this discussion thread late (been on vacation).  Ignore my 
comments if I missed a critical step  8-/

All of the numbering and cross-ref steps seem OK ... whatever works for you.  
But why not use Conditional text for the temporary footnotes for author use?

Conditional text name and color could be set as desired, and then turned off 
before publication.  I make this suggestion because a previous employer used 
white text for a while, but got stung badly during a change in formatting for 
publication to HTML.  The documents went to customers before anyone discovered 
that the white text was published in black and the font size was the same as 
surrounding text.  OOoops  the notes were for in-house use only.

Just a thought ...

Ed DeRosier
Anritsu Company

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Integrating table footnotes into chapter flow

[De Rosier, Edward]

Hi Alan,

I'm coming into this discussion thread late (been on vacation).  Ignore my 
comments if I missed a critical step  8-/

All of the numbering and cross-ref steps seem OK ... whatever works for you.  
But why not use Conditional text for the temporary footnotes for author use?

Conditional text name and color could be set as desired, and then turned off 
before publication.  I make this suggestion because a previous employer used 
white text for a while, but got stung badly during a change in formatting for 
publication to HTML.  The documents went to customers before anyone discovered 
that the white text was published in black and the font size was the same as 
surrounding text.  OOoops  the notes were for in-house use only.

Just a thought ...

Ed DeRosier
Anritsu Company

Integrating table footnotes into chapter flow.

[Alan Litchfield]

H'yall,

On 26/05/2012, at 5:14 AM, Stuart Rogers wrote:

> 
> I would suggest a refinement.  The objective is to have footnote numbers in 
> the body text just before the table, which are visible when editing but do 
> not take up any space and are invisible when printing. These footnote numbers 
> have footnote text at the bottom of the page, and all the numbering of 
> footnotes is automatically sequential.
> 
> The numbers are "faked" to appear as though they originate in table cells by 
> cross-referencing to the Footnote paragraphs, in the way that Alan describes 
> above.  (I'm not sure what advantage there is to inserting unique markers, 
> Alan?  You can just x-ref to the Footnote pgf type and select the appropriate 
> pgf.)

Yeah, that's a better way. Removes a step. However, still need to update 
numbering manually.

> 
> To prepare for visible/invisible toggling, View > Color > Definitions and 
> create a new colour (e.g., TableFN).  Then View > Color > Views and in View 
> 2, move TableFN to the Invisible column.  Simply toggle from one view to the 
> other when you alternate between editing and printing.
> 

Still learning FM10-ways :)

> To use that visibility toggling and take up no space, create a tag for 
> dedicated paragraphs that will contain only the table anchor and the footnote 
> reference numbers intended to (re-)appear in the table. This tag should be 
> set to Space Below of a negative value equal to the font size, and font 
> colour TableFN (or whatever you called it).  (For usability by the next 
> writer, you might give this tag an Autonumber string of "Placeholder for 
> table footnotes" or other short explanation.)
> 
> In Table Designer, set the Space Above to the same negative number you used 
> in Space Below in the anchoring pgf.  The combination of negative Space 
> Above/Below will cause the table to overlap the anchoring pgf completely.
> 
> When editing a table with footnotes, temporarily make the anchoring pgf 
> accessible by changing the table's Space Above to zero. In the anchoring pgf, 
> insert as many Special > Footnotes as required by the table, typing the 
> footnote text as usual. Then, in the table cells, insert cross-references to 
> those Footnote pgfs.  When you're done, change the table's Space Above back 
> to the negative number and toggle to colour view 2.


I thought about doing it that way, but didn't have time to test it, for 
example, if there are pagination issues. Glad to see that it would work.

Cheers
Alan
-- 
AlphaByte
PO Box 1941, Auckland
http://www.alphabyte.co.nz
http://www.alphabyte.co.nz/beatrice

Re: Integrating table footnotes into chapter flow.

[Stuart Rogers]

On 25/05/2012 12:16 AM, Alan Litchfield wrote:

Hi Dan,


...


I would change things slightly: 1. By formatting the text you said
would be white as red, until proofing stage. Create a paragraph
format and call it TblFtntPara. I would set the text to red, then
change it the size to be 1pt and white. 2a. In the footnote text,
insert a unique marker (sequential numbering or something). 2b.
Create a character format and call it something like TblSupScrpt: the
format will be superscripted, with all else As is. 2c. Create a
cross reference format that displays the footnote number only, and
uses the TblSupScrpt format (like thisTablSupScrpt$paranumonly).
2c. Then for the superscripted number to appear in the table, insert
a cross reference to the marker in the footnote. The number will
appear superscripted, and will be the number of the footnote.

Since these are cross references, you will need to run the update to
see any changes are effected.



I would suggest a refinement.  The objective is to have footnote numbers 
in the body text just before the table, which are visible when editing 
but do not take up any space and are invisible when printing. These 
footnote numbers have footnote text at the bottom of the page, and all 
the numbering of footnotes is automatically sequential.


The numbers are faked to appear as though they originate in table 
cells by cross-referencing to the Footnote paragraphs, in the way that 
Alan describes above.  (I'm not sure what advantage there is to 
inserting unique markers, Alan?  You can just x-ref to the Footnote pgf 
type and select the appropriate pgf.)


To prepare for visible/invisible toggling, View  Color  Definitions 
and create a new colour (e.g., TableFN).  Then View  Color  Views and 
in View 2, move TableFN to the Invisible column.  Simply toggle from one 
view to the other when you alternate between editing and printing.


To use that visibility toggling and take up no space, create a tag for 
dedicated paragraphs that will contain only the table anchor and the 
footnote reference numbers intended to (re-)appear in the table. This 
tag should be set to Space Below of a negative value equal to the font 
size, and font colour TableFN (or whatever you called it).  (For 
usability by the next writer, you might give this tag an Autonumber 
string of Placeholder for table footnotes or other short explanation.)


In Table Designer, set the Space Above to the same negative number you 
used in Space Below in the anchoring pgf.  The combination of negative 
Space Above/Below will cause the table to overlap the anchoring pgf 
completely.


When editing a table with footnotes, temporarily make the anchoring pgf 
accessible by changing the table's Space Above to zero. In the anchoring 
pgf, insert as many Special  Footnotes as required by the table, typing 
the footnote text as usual. Then, in the table cells, insert 
cross-references to those Footnote pgfs.  When you're done, change the 
table's Space Above back to the negative number and toggle to colour view 2.



(PS: I also thought of defining the TableFN colour with the Don't Print 
setting, but that didn't work -- perhaps it only applies when creating 
colour separations?  I haven't used either feature; maybe someone else 
can clarify.)


--
Stuart Rogers
Technical Communicator
Phoenix Geophysics Limited
3781 Victoria Park Avenue, Unit 3
Toronto, ON, Canada  M1W 3K5
+1 (416) 491-7340 x 325

http://www.phoenix-geophysics.com
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Re: Integrating table footnotes into chapter flow.

[Alan Litchfield]

H'yall,

On 26/05/2012, at 5:14 AM, Stuart Rogers wrote:

 
 I would suggest a refinement.  The objective is to have footnote numbers in 
 the body text just before the table, which are visible when editing but do 
 not take up any space and are invisible when printing. These footnote numbers 
 have footnote text at the bottom of the page, and all the numbering of 
 footnotes is automatically sequential.
 
 The numbers are faked to appear as though they originate in table cells by 
 cross-referencing to the Footnote paragraphs, in the way that Alan describes 
 above.  (I'm not sure what advantage there is to inserting unique markers, 
 Alan?  You can just x-ref to the Footnote pgf type and select the appropriate 
 pgf.)

Yeah, that's a better way. Removes a step. However, still need to update 
numbering manually.

 
 To prepare for visible/invisible toggling, View  Color  Definitions and 
 create a new colour (e.g., TableFN).  Then View  Color  Views and in View 
 2, move TableFN to the Invisible column.  Simply toggle from one view to the 
 other when you alternate between editing and printing.
 

Still learning FM10-ways :)

 To use that visibility toggling and take up no space, create a tag for 
 dedicated paragraphs that will contain only the table anchor and the footnote 
 reference numbers intended to (re-)appear in the table. This tag should be 
 set to Space Below of a negative value equal to the font size, and font 
 colour TableFN (or whatever you called it).  (For usability by the next 
 writer, you might give this tag an Autonumber string of Placeholder for 
 table footnotes or other short explanation.)
 
 In Table Designer, set the Space Above to the same negative number you used 
 in Space Below in the anchoring pgf.  The combination of negative Space 
 Above/Below will cause the table to overlap the anchoring pgf completely.
 
 When editing a table with footnotes, temporarily make the anchoring pgf 
 accessible by changing the table's Space Above to zero. In the anchoring pgf, 
 insert as many Special  Footnotes as required by the table, typing the 
 footnote text as usual. Then, in the table cells, insert cross-references to 
 those Footnote pgfs.  When you're done, change the table's Space Above back 
 to the negative number and toggle to colour view 2.


I thought about doing it that way, but didn't have time to test it, for 
example, if there are pagination issues. Glad to see that it would work.

Cheers
Alan
-- 
AlphaByte
PO Box 1941, Auckland
http://www.alphabyte.co.nz
http://www.alphabyte.co.nz/beatrice




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Integrating table footnotes into chapter flow.

[Alan Litchfield]

Hi Dan,

I feel your pain, having been there, done that.

I figure the demand arises because there is a certain, single word processor 
that does it that way, albeit that this way is not correct.

Organising the footnote numbering sequence is not much of an issue. This is 
part of the numbering control at the book level (assuming you are using a book 
file). FM footnotes typically appear at the bottom of the page (it is normally 
demands for end notes that get people worked up).

The only effective work around I was able to muster was to use tab delimited 
text, but that meant no table rules. I made paragraph formats with 
appropriately positioned tabs. In the case I refer to, few entries wrapped and 
those that did were able to be positioned at the end of the line.

What you have described sounds the best option. At least in this instance, if 
the numbering changes, you can control it. 

I would change things slightly:
1. By formatting the text you said would be white as red, until proofing stage. 
Create a paragraph format and call it TblFtntPara. I would set the text to red, 
then change it the size to be 1pt and white. 
2a. In the footnote text, insert a unique marker (sequential numbering or 
something). 
2b. Create a character format and call it something like TblSupScrpt: the 
format will be superscripted, with all else "As is". 
2c. Create a cross reference format that displays the footnote number only, and 
uses the TblSupScrpt format (like this <$paranumonly>).
2c. Then for the superscripted number to appear in the table, insert a cross 
reference to the marker in the footnote. The number will appear superscripted, 
and will be the number of the footnote.

Since these are cross references, you will need to run the update to see any 
changes are effected.

Alan


On 25/05/2012, at 3:01 AM, Harding, Dan wrote:

> Good morning,
>  
> I have a book where the powers that be want ALL footnotes to be part of the 
> same numbering sequence and appear at the bottom of pages? even footnotes 
> whose references appear in tables. Since by default footnotes within  a table 
> are placed immediately below the table and have their own 
> lettering/numbering, How do I accomplish this?
>  
> The only way that I?m aware of is a hack/kludge that almost makes things 
> worse: Within tables place superscripted text that mimics a footnote 
> reference, and then immediately above or below the table, place the real 
> footnote, with the reference tagged in white so it is invisible when printing.
>  
> I hate it, and presents a royal fustercluck if any footnotes are added or 
> removed within the chapter.
>  
> Is there a workable fix?

-- 
AlphaByte
PO Box 1941, Auckland
http://www.alphabyte.co.nz
http://www.alphabyte.co.nz/beatrice

Integrating table footnotes into chapter flow.

[Stuart Rogers]

On 25/05/2012 12:16 AM, Alan Litchfield wrote:
> Hi Dan,
>
...

> I would change things slightly: 1. By formatting the text you said
> would be white as red, until proofing stage. Create a paragraph
> format and call it TblFtntPara. I would set the text to red, then
> change it the size to be 1pt and white. 2a. In the footnote text,
> insert a unique marker (sequential numbering or something). 2b.
> Create a character format and call it something like TblSupScrpt: the
> format will be superscripted, with all else "As is". 2c. Create a
> cross reference format that displays the footnote number only, and
> uses the TblSupScrpt format (like this<$paranumonly>).
> 2c. Then for the superscripted number to appear in the table, insert
> a cross reference to the marker in the footnote. The number will
> appear superscripted, and will be the number of the footnote.
>
> Since these are cross references, you will need to run the update to
> see any changes are effected.


I would suggest a refinement.  The objective is to have footnote numbers 
in the body text just before the table, which are visible when editing 
but do not take up any space and are invisible when printing. These 
footnote numbers have footnote text at the bottom of the page, and all 
the numbering of footnotes is automatically sequential.

The numbers are "faked" to appear as though they originate in table 
cells by cross-referencing to the Footnote paragraphs, in the way that 
Alan describes above.  (I'm not sure what advantage there is to 
inserting unique markers, Alan?  You can just x-ref to the Footnote pgf 
type and select the appropriate pgf.)

To prepare for visible/invisible toggling, View > Color > Definitions 
and create a new colour (e.g., TableFN).  Then View > Color > Views and 
in View 2, move TableFN to the Invisible column.  Simply toggle from one 
view to the other when you alternate between editing and printing.

To use that visibility toggling and take up no space, create a tag for 
dedicated paragraphs that will contain only the table anchor and the 
footnote reference numbers intended to (re-)appear in the table. This 
tag should be set to Space Below of a negative value equal to the font 
size, and font colour TableFN (or whatever you called it).  (For 
usability by the next writer, you might give this tag an Autonumber 
string of "Placeholder for table footnotes" or other short explanation.)

In Table Designer, set the Space Above to the same negative number you 
used in Space Below in the anchoring pgf.  The combination of negative 
Space Above/Below will cause the table to overlap the anchoring pgf 
completely.

When editing a table with footnotes, temporarily make the anchoring pgf 
accessible by changing the table's Space Above to zero. In the anchoring 
pgf, insert as many Special > Footnotes as required by the table, typing 
the footnote text as usual. Then, in the table cells, insert 
cross-references to those Footnote pgfs.  When you're done, change the 
table's Space Above back to the negative number and toggle to colour view 2.


(PS: I also thought of defining the TableFN colour with the Don't Print 
setting, but that didn't work -- perhaps it only applies when creating 
colour separations?  I haven't used either feature; maybe someone else 
can clarify.)

-- 
Stuart Rogers
Technical Communicator
Phoenix Geophysics Limited
3781 Victoria Park Avenue, Unit 3
Toronto, ON, Canada  M1W 3K5
+1 (416) 491-7340 x 325

http://www.phoenix-geophysics.com

Integrating table footnotes into chapter flow.

[Harding, Dan]

Good morning,

I have a book where the powers that be want ALL footnotes to be part of the 
same numbering sequence and appear at the bottom of pages... even footnotes 
whose references appear in tables. Since by default footnotes within  a table 
are placed immediately below the table and have their own lettering/numbering, 
How do I accomplish this?

The only way that I'm aware of is a hack/kludge that almost makes things worse: 
Within tables place superscripted text that mimics a footnote reference, and 
then immediately above or below the table, place the real footnote, with the 
reference tagged in white so it is invisible when printing.

I hate it, and presents a royal fustercluck if any footnotes are added or 
removed within the chapter.

Is there a workable fix?

Thanks in advance.

Dan Harding
Technical Editorial Specialist
University of Illinois Tax School
437 Mumford Hall
1301 West Gregory Drive
Urbana, IL 61801
217-333-0935

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Re: Integrating table footnotes into chapter flow.

[Alan Litchfield]

Hi Dan,

I feel your pain, having been there, done that.

I figure the demand arises because there is a certain, single word processor 
that does it that way, albeit that this way is not correct.

Organising the footnote numbering sequence is not much of an issue. This is 
part of the numbering control at the book level (assuming you are using a book 
file). FM footnotes typically appear at the bottom of the page (it is normally 
demands for end notes that get people worked up).

The only effective work around I was able to muster was to use tab delimited 
text, but that meant no table rules. I made paragraph formats with 
appropriately positioned tabs. In the case I refer to, few entries wrapped and 
those that did were able to be positioned at the end of the line.

What you have described sounds the best option. At least in this instance, if 
the numbering changes, you can control it. 

I would change things slightly:
1. By formatting the text you said would be white as red, until proofing stage. 
Create a paragraph format and call it TblFtntPara. I would set the text to red, 
then change it the size to be 1pt and white. 
2a. In the footnote text, insert a unique marker (sequential numbering or 
something). 
2b. Create a character format and call it something like TblSupScrpt: the 
format will be superscripted, with all else As is. 
2c. Create a cross reference format that displays the footnote number only, and 
uses the TblSupScrpt format (like this TablSupScrpt$paranumonly).
2c. Then for the superscripted number to appear in the table, insert a cross 
reference to the marker in the footnote. The number will appear superscripted, 
and will be the number of the footnote.

Since these are cross references, you will need to run the update to see any 
changes are effected.

Alan


On 25/05/2012, at 3:01 AM, Harding, Dan wrote:

 Good morning,
  
 I have a book where the powers that be want ALL footnotes to be part of the 
 same numbering sequence and appear at the bottom of pages… even footnotes 
 whose references appear in tables. Since by default footnotes within  a table 
 are placed immediately below the table and have their own 
 lettering/numbering, How do I accomplish this?
  
 The only way that I’m aware of is a hack/kludge that almost makes things 
 worse: Within tables place superscripted text that mimics a footnote 
 reference, and then immediately above or below the table, place the real 
 footnote, with the reference tagged in white so it is invisible when printing.
  
 I hate it, and presents a royal fustercluck if any footnotes are added or 
 removed within the chapter.
  
 Is there a workable fix?

-- 
AlphaByte
PO Box 1941, Auckland
http://www.alphabyte.co.nz
http://www.alphabyte.co.nz/beatrice




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Integrating table footnotes into chapter flow.

[Harding, Dan]

Good morning,

I have a book where the powers that be want ALL footnotes to be part of the 
same numbering sequence and appear at the bottom of pages... even footnotes 
whose references appear in tables. Since by default footnotes within  a table 
are placed immediately below the table and have their own lettering/numbering, 
How do I accomplish this?

The only way that I'm aware of is a hack/kludge that almost makes things worse: 
Within tables place superscripted text that mimics a footnote reference, and 
then immediately above or below the table, place the real footnote, with the 
reference tagged in white so it is invisible when printing.

I hate it, and presents a royal fustercluck if any footnotes are added or 
removed within the chapter.

Is there a workable fix?

Thanks in advance.

Dan Harding
Technical Editorial Specialist
University of Illinois Tax School
437 Mumford Hall
1301 West Gregory Drive
Urbana, IL 61801
217-333-0935

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