Re: Migrating features over to InDesign
Thanks. Very helpful, indeed. Bodvar On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 8:40 AM, Paul Findon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Framers, Following the recent discussion of FM features migrating to InDesign, here's a snippet from an interview between Adobe Co-Chairman John Warnock and Conrad Taylor, BCS Electronic Publishing Specialist Group in 2004. Paul Interviewer: Adobe has found itself in the situation of owning three page make-up systems: PageMaker, InDesign and FrameMaker. I'm not counting Illustrator for these purposes. When one starts to think about Adobe getting involved in document composition issues, it's time to pull out the flipchart and brainstorm about what are the important aspects of document composition to support; which direction to go. Those of us who use these tools often look around at other software: 3B2 does this, Xyvision does this, Quark does this; wouldn't it be nice to put them all in the blender, so to speak, and extract one ideal application. Warnock: Well, that's a complicated problem. And there's a fair bit of disagreement inside of Adobe as to what the appropriate thing is to do. PageMaker as a codebase was just very long in the tooth: it was not a maintainable codebase. It was clear when we acquired it that it was not going to last for very long. Too much spaghetti-code: very difficult. InDesign had just started as a project when we acquired Aldus, and we continued with a very strong group of people: Robert Brainsea and Zak Williamson, and a very strong group of people who built the architecture for InDesign. But they were coming at it from a very 'let's go build magazines' kind of perspective. Then there was the other set of the world that works with highly structured documents, and the FrameMaker world. And I absolutely love FrameMaker; I've been a very strong proponent of FrameMaker. But FrameMaker was also suffering from an old codebase. Essentially, the idea is to start migrating features over to InDesign. Unfortunately, the InDesign crowd doesn't understand the structured document world as well as they need to, and so that migration has been coming along more slowly than I would have liked it to have been. Interviewer: Some of the pagination issues, and table-handling… Warnock: Yes, and cross-referencing, and forward-referencing, and all the things about dealing with highly structured documents. I'm a structured-document person: I like them! Interviewer: You're in good company here! I've been using FrameMaker for Macintosh since version 2.1. And now I shall be using Frame 7.0 on the Mac under Classic mode – for the rest of time, perhaps. Warnock: Well hopefully someday there will be a version of InDesign that will have the same properties. And to InDesign's credit, there are people who have done math plug-ins and have started to get the more arcane things into InDesign. But they haven't fundamentally solved the structure problem. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/bodvar%40gmail.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. -- It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious. -- Edsel Murphy, dec. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Migrating features over to InDesign
Damn. Thanks for the heads' up. My hope is that once they consider InDesign to have incorporated Frame's features, they also make the migration of existing Frame projects reasonably simple. _ Lea Rush Software and Documentation Specialist Astoria-Pacific International PO Box 830 Clackamas OR 97015 PH: 800-657-3010 FAX: 503-655-7367 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Findon Sent: lunes, 29 de septiembre de 2008 01:41 a.m. To: FrameUsers List Subject: Migrating features over to InDesign Framers, Following the recent discussion of FM features migrating to InDesign, here's a snippet from an interview between Adobe Co-Chairman John Warnock and Conrad Taylor, BCS Electronic Publishing Specialist Group in 2004. Paul Interviewer: Adobe has found itself in the situation of owning three page make-up systems: PageMaker, InDesign and FrameMaker. I'm not counting Illustrator for these purposes. When one starts to think about Adobe getting involved in document composition issues, it's time to pull out the flipchart and brainstorm about what are the important aspects of document composition to support; which direction to go. Those of us who use these tools often look around at other software: 3B2 does this, Xyvision does this, Quark does this; wouldn't it be nice to put them all in the blender, so to speak, and extract one ideal application. Warnock: Well, that's a complicated problem. And there's a fair bit of disagreement inside of Adobe as to what the appropriate thing is to do. PageMaker as a codebase was just very long in the tooth: it was not a maintainable codebase. It was clear when we acquired it that it was not going to last for very long. Too much spaghetti-code: very difficult. InDesign had just started as a project when we acquired Aldus, and we continued with a very strong group of people: Robert Brainsea and Zak Williamson, and a very strong group of people who built the architecture for InDesign. But they were coming at it from a very 'let's go build magazines' kind of perspective. Then there was the other set of the world that works with highly structured documents, and the FrameMaker world. And I absolutely love FrameMaker; I've been a very strong proponent of FrameMaker. But FrameMaker was also suffering from an old codebase. Essentially, the idea is to start migrating features over to InDesign. Unfortunately, the InDesign crowd doesn't understand the structured document world as well as they need to, and so that migration has been coming along more slowly than I would have liked it to have been. Interviewer: Some of the pagination issues, and table-handling. Warnock: Yes, and cross-referencing, and forward-referencing, and all the things about dealing with highly structured documents. I'm a structured-document person: I like them! Interviewer: You're in good company here! I've been using FrameMaker for Macintosh since version 2.1. And now I shall be using Frame 7.0 on the Mac under Classic mode - for the rest of time, perhaps. Warnock: Well hopefully someday there will be a version of InDesign that will have the same properties. And to InDesign's credit, there are people who have done math plug-ins and have started to get the more arcane things into InDesign. But they haven't fundamentally solved the structure problem. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/lea%40astoria-pacific.co m Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Migrating features over to InDesign
While it was good of Paul to repost from the archives, he noted that the interview was done in 2004. I think the only conclusion anyone could reach is that Adobe is still implementing on the plan that they brought forward four or five years ago. Nothing new there... Art Art Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent and a redheaded grl. -- Richard Thompson No disclaimers apply. DoD 358 On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 11:57 AM, Lea Rush [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Damn. Thanks for the heads' up. My hope is that once they consider InDesign to have incorporated Frame's features, they also make the migration of existing Frame projects reasonably simple. _ Lea Rush Software and Documentation Specialist Astoria-Pacific International PO Box 830 Clackamas OR 97015 PH: 800-657-3010 FAX: 503-655-7367 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Findon Sent: lunes, 29 de septiembre de 2008 01:41 a.m. To: FrameUsers List Subject: Migrating features over to InDesign Framers, Following the recent discussion of FM features migrating to InDesign, here's a snippet from an interview between Adobe Co-Chairman John Warnock and Conrad Taylor, BCS Electronic Publishing Specialist Group in 2004. Paul Interviewer: Adobe has found itself in the situation of owning three page make-up systems: PageMaker, InDesign and FrameMaker. I'm not counting Illustrator for these purposes. When one starts to think about Adobe getting involved in document composition issues, it's time to pull out the flipchart and brainstorm about what are the important aspects of document composition to support; which direction to go. Those of us who use these tools often look around at other software: 3B2 does this, Xyvision does this, Quark does this; wouldn't it be nice to put them all in the blender, so to speak, and extract one ideal application. Warnock: Well, that's a complicated problem. And there's a fair bit of disagreement inside of Adobe as to what the appropriate thing is to do. PageMaker as a codebase was just very long in the tooth: it was not a maintainable codebase. It was clear when we acquired it that it was not going to last for very long. Too much spaghetti-code: very difficult. InDesign had just started as a project when we acquired Aldus, and we continued with a very strong group of people: Robert Brainsea and Zak Williamson, and a very strong group of people who built the architecture for InDesign. But they were coming at it from a very 'let's go build magazines' kind of perspective. Then there was the other set of the world that works with highly structured documents, and the FrameMaker world. And I absolutely love FrameMaker; I've been a very strong proponent of FrameMaker. But FrameMaker was also suffering from an old codebase. Essentially, the idea is to start migrating features over to InDesign. Unfortunately, the InDesign crowd doesn't understand the structured document world as well as they need to, and so that migration has been coming along more slowly than I would have liked it to have been. Interviewer: Some of the pagination issues, and table-handling. Warnock: Yes, and cross-referencing, and forward-referencing, and all the things about dealing with highly structured documents. I'm a structured-document person: I like them! Interviewer: You're in good company here! I've been using FrameMaker for Macintosh since version 2.1. And now I shall be using Frame 7.0 on the Mac under Classic mode - for the rest of time, perhaps. Warnock: Well hopefully someday there will be a version of InDesign that will have the same properties. And to InDesign's credit, there are people who have done math plug-ins and have started to get the more arcane things into InDesign. But they haven't fundamentally solved the structure problem. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/lea%40astoria-pacific.co m Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/art.campbell%40gmail.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently
RE: Migrating features over to InDesign
What is so terribly sad is that Adobe has never really shown that it understands what FrameMaker is for. They have always had their head firmly in the designer/graphics artist/page layout camp. Scott At 8:57 AM -0700 9/29/08, Lea Rush wrote: Damn. Thanks for the heads' up. My hope is that once they consider InDesign to have incorporated Frame's features, they also make the migration of existing Frame projects reasonably simple. _ Lea Rush Software and Documentation Specialist Astoria-Pacific International PO Box 830 Clackamas OR 97015 PH: 800-657-3010 FAX: 503-655-7367 - ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Migrating features over to InDesign
Hi, Lea: In case you missed it, I've noted some of the differences between FM and ID that make it difficult to accomplish perfect automated conversions in this thread: http://lists.frameusers.com/pipermail/framers/2008-September/013757.html If your documents rely heavily on the problematic features, consider posting your requests for changes in both FM and ID at Adobe's official link: http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform HTH Regards, Peter Gold KnowHow ProServices On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 10:57 AM, Lea Rush [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Damn. Thanks for the heads' up. My hope is that once they consider InDesign to have incorporated Frame's features, they also make the migration of existing Frame projects reasonably simple. _ Lea Rush ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Migrating features over to InDesign
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is so terribly sad is that Adobe has never really shown that it understands what FrameMaker is for. They have always had their head firmly in the designer/graphics artist/page layout camp. Hmm. Based on that interview excerpt, Warnock was firmly _not_ in the designer/graphics artist/page layout camp. He was all about highly structured long documents and said he loved FM. Adobe is a large organization. It doesn't have just one understanding and one head. Are there lots of designer/artist types at Adobe? Sure. Do they have lots of sway? Sure, probably just about in proportion to the percentage of Adobe's revenue that their designer/artist-oriented software produces. Are there people at Adobe who understand what FM is for? Of course. Do they have lots of sway? Um, well, probably just about in proportion to the percentage of Adobe's revenue that FM produces. And that's the real issue, not lack of someone's understanding. Richard Richard G. Combs Senior Technical Writer Polycom, Inc. richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom 303-223-5111 -- rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom 303-777-0436 -- ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Migrating features over to InDesign
Hi Peter, Thanks for the reminder and the link. Quite frankly, I'll be using Frame until it's metaphorically pried from my cold, dead fingers. I have a lot of duties aside from document creation and maintainence*, and the longer I can put off the inevitable learning curve, the better. *Yes, I'm one of those evil people who both develops the software and writes the manual. I do my best in our small company... _ Lea Rush Software and Documentation Specialist Astoria-Pacific International PO Box 830 Clackamas OR 97015 PH: 800-657-3010 FAX: 503-655-7367 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter Gold Sent: lunes, 29 de septiembre de 2008 09:44 a.m. To: Lea Rush Cc: FrameUsers List Subject: Re: Migrating features over to InDesign Hi, Lea: In case you missed it, I've noted some of the differences between FM and ID that make it difficult to accomplish perfect automated conversions in this thread: http://lists.frameusers.com/pipermail/framers/2008-September/013757.html If your documents rely heavily on the problematic features, consider posting your requests for changes in both FM and ID at Adobe's official link: http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform HTH Regards, Peter Gold KnowHow ProServices On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 10:57 AM, Lea Rush [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Damn. Thanks for the heads' up. My hope is that once they consider InDesign to have incorporated Frame's features, they also make the migration of existing Frame projects reasonably simple. _ Lea Rush ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/lea%40astoria-pacific.co m Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Migrating features over to InDesign
Hi, Lea: On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 11:57 AM, Lea Rush [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Peter, Thanks for the reminder and the link. You're welcome. Quite frankly, I'll be using Frame until it's metaphorically pried from my cold, dead fingers. I have a lot of duties aside from document creation and maintainence*, and the longer I can put off the inevitable learning curve, the better. I hope I haven't unintentionally implied or added to the suspicion that FM is/will be discontinued in favor of ID. The FM Next development team is working intensely as always. Don't be shy about posting wishes to Adobe's official feature-request site: http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform Regards, Peter __ Peter Gold KnowHow ProServices ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Migrating features over to InDesign
Hi Dov, Thank you for the clarification. I've had other seemingly immortal software packages die out from under me, and it's good to hear that the increasingly Frame-like features of InDesign aren't indicative. This is yet another example of why having official vendor reps on a list like this is a very good thing. :) Thanks again, Lea _ Lea Rush Software and Documentation Specialist Astoria-Pacific International PO Box 830 Clackamas OR 97015 PH: 800-657-3010 FAX: 503-655-7367 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dov Isaacs Sent: lunes, 29 de septiembre de 2008 11:03 a.m. To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lea Rush Cc: FrameUsers List Subject: RE: Migrating features over to InDesign Importance: High To be very specific about this (and to hopefully avoid the seemingly annual FrameMaker is dead ritual), there are absolutely NO plans within Adobe at this time to discontinue FrameMaker in favor of InDesign. The features added to InDesign that are Framemaker-like are specifically per the request of InDesign users and have not been intended as a means of inducing FrameMaker users to migrate although that may be the unintended effect in some cases. In fact, the next major release of FrameMaker is currently under active development with thoughts as to what would go into subsequent releases. - Dov -Original Message- From: Peter Gold Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 10:38 AM Hi, Lea: On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 11:57 AM, Lea Rush [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Peter, Thanks for the reminder and the link. You're welcome. Quite frankly, I'll be using Frame until it's metaphorically pried from my cold, dead fingers. I have a lot of duties aside from document creation and maintainence*, and the longer I can put off the inevitable learning curve, the better. I hope I haven't unintentionally implied or added to the suspicion that FM is/will be discontinued in favor of ID. The FM Next development team is working intensely as always. Don't be shy about posting wishes to Adobe's official feature-request site: http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform Regards, Peter __ Peter Gold KnowHow ProServices ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/lea%40astoria-pacific.co m Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
