Re: [Framers] Questions re upgrading Frame from 7.1
I second the recommendation of installing 2019 on a non-production machine. The weird, nonstandard UI introduced in FM9 takes some getting used to, to put it kindly. It would probably be a good idea to evaluate InDesign as well. That's the standard for publishing. http://www.dtptools.com/product.asp?id=mfid ___ This message is from the Framers mailing list Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/ Subscribe and unsubscribe at http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com
Re: [Framers] Questions re upgrading Frame from 7.1
10. Yes though we walk through the valley of asking price, we fear all auto-corrections. Seriously, if you will ever think of converting to a future version of FM but retain the earlier version and use the same files in both versions, be religious about identifying the creator version, and testing how well exchanging via MIF, RTF, or other vehicle works. I used to put the version in the filename, as: filename_fm7_1.fm If you're considering moving to InDesign at some time in the future, dtptools.com has a mif converter tool, and also a service, but you'll need FM to save the files as MIF. HTH On Tue, Mar 31, 2020, 11:35 AM Mike Wickham wrote: > I don't have FrameMaker 2019, but I'll answer a couple of these. > > 4. The scroll wheel issue was fixed long ago. Version 8? > > 8. Frame will open old Frame files, but once you save them, they will be > in a new version that will no longer be openable by FrameMaker 7, > without conversion. I believe FM 2019 will let you save as MIF 7-- > though if you have used features that were not available in FM 7 days, > you may lose some data. I have no experience with this. Others will be > able to help more. There are also some fine, inexpensive scripts out > there that let you save back to various FM versions-- but again, some > things created with new version can't save backward. > > There may also be some character conversion issues moving files in > either direction. FrameMaker 8 moved to Unicode. So there are issues > with the way some characters display (if at all) when you move files > back and forth across that boundary. > > 10. I HATE the subscription model. FrameMaker 2019 still has the > perpetual license available. and I implore you to go the perpetual > license route so that the option doesn't disappear. It has disappeared > for the other important Adobe products. Subscriptions are nice in that > they can budget the high cost of software on a monthly basis, but they > are a poor value in the long run. Subscriptions cost more in the long > run. Adobe upgrades FrameMaker approximately every 18 months. It is $400 > to upgrade the perpetual license (if you own the most recent version), > but it is $540 to rent the software on the subscription model for the > same period. Not only that, but a perpetual license is an asset. If you > sell your company, it increases the valley of your asking price. You can > even sell the license standalone and get some or all your $1000 back. > But with the subscription model, FrameMaker is not an asset. You get an > expense and a contract liability. instead. > > MOST IMPORTANTLY, if you ever stop paying the monthly rental, your > software quits. You are done working in FrameMaker, unless your files > can be converted safely back to your old FM7 version-- and you better do > the conversion before the subscription runs out and FrameMaker turns off! > > Mike > > > On 3/31/2020 7:01 AM, Wendy McGovern wrote: > > Hi, Framers, > > Apologies for a somewhat long post, but I would really like some input. > We are contemplating finally upgrading from our Frame 7.1 (yep, had it for > 17 years) to the newest version (Frame 2019). Our version of Frame has been > ridiculously stable and its amazing features have served our purposes > without having to upgrade over the years. We upgraded our computers to > Windows 10 last year, but the 32-bit Frame has worked in that system so > far. We do get messages about fonts changing when we change print driver to > Adobe for making PDFs, but it hasn't had any ill effects for us. Some > background: > > We do legal books in Frame that use the generated files feature for > summary and tables of contents, tables of cases, tables of statutes, and > subject matter indexes. Most of our books have extensive footnotes (lawyers > love to include footnotes that go on for 7/8ths of a page). We make PDFs of > the books as well as send MIF files to a conversion company for EPUBs. We > use unstructured Frame and don't need structure for anything. We don't use > conditional text for anything. Recently, I had an incidence of Frame files > in a book I was working on get corrupted where paragraphs had been > bizarrely messed up and lost the work I had done on the files in the last > week or so. Another coworker had saved a Frame file to RTF and later > couldn't open the Frame file again because it said it didn't recognize the > file format. This is leading us to believe that maybe it is finally time > for us to bite the bullet and upgrade to be compatible with all the other > software out there now. So, some specific quest > io > > ns (keeping in mind the unstructured environment): > > 1. I was going to ask if Frame 2019 allows the old Escape key sequences > of Esc-jj and Esc-cc to work, because I saw on the list that they broke > those functions in the later versions-but I see from the Frame 2019 manual > online that they have restored those functions in 2019. So this > functionality works well now? > > 2. Is
Re: [Framers] Questions re upgrading Frame from 7.1
I believe most of the bugs you're referring to are long fixed. What i think is likely to be a larger issue and that you don't address is the hardware and operating system on which you're running your, uh, antique software. If you're going to the current version, which I'd recommend, you're likely looking at significant hardware and maybe OS changes as well as Frame. FM19's SaveAs RTF works better than any previous version's. Played with the ePub, but not for any documents that have been used outside the department. Worked fine, but didn't beat on it. Art Campbell art.campb...@gmail.com "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson No disclaimers apply. DoD 358 On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 11:39 AM Wendy McGovern wrote: > Hi, Framers, > Apologies for a somewhat long post, but I would really like some input. We > are contemplating finally upgrading from our Frame 7.1 (yep, had it for 17 > years) to the newest version (Frame 2019). Our version of Frame has been > ridiculously stable and its amazing features have served our purposes > without having to upgrade over the years. We upgraded our computers to > Windows 10 last year, but the 32-bit Frame has worked in that system so > far. We do get messages about fonts changing when we change print driver to > Adobe for making PDFs, but it hasn't had any ill effects for us. Some > background: > We do legal books in Frame that use the generated files feature for > summary and tables of contents, tables of cases, tables of statutes, and > subject matter indexes. Most of our books have extensive footnotes (lawyers > love to include footnotes that go on for 7/8ths of a page). We make PDFs of > the books as well as send MIF files to a conversion company for EPUBs. We > use unstructured Frame and don't need structure for anything. We don't use > conditional text for anything. Recently, I had an incidence of Frame files > in a book I was working on get corrupted where paragraphs had been > bizarrely messed up and lost the work I had done on the files in the last > week or so. Another coworker had saved a Frame file to RTF and later > couldn't open the Frame file again because it said it didn't recognize the > file format. This is leading us to believe that maybe it is finally time > for us to bite the bullet and upgrade to be compatible with all the other > software out there now. So, some specific questio > ns (keeping in mind the unstructured environment): > 1. I was going to ask if Frame 2019 allows the old Escape key sequences of > Esc-jj and Esc-cc to work, because I saw on the list that they broke those > functions in the later versions-but I see from the Frame 2019 manual online > that they have restored those functions in 2019. So this functionality > works well now? > 2. Is Frame ever going to fix the footnotes problem? I've replied to > Adobe's feature requests over the years, and they still don't have a fix. > 3. Is Frame 2019 stable as far as people using it now can tell? (I've seen > some posts here about problems creating PDFs and other things that > shouldn't be happening with recent versions of Frame.) > 4. There was a small problem with Frame 7.1's ability to use the scroll > wheel that needed a special mouse driver that we had to use and we had to > reinstall it when we went to Windows 10, but once the driver was in place, > it was fixed. I'm assuming Frame 2019 doesn't have any issues like this > anymore, right? > 5. Another minor problem with our Frame is a glitch where if you hold down > the mouse a little too long when selecting something, Frame will crash. Has > anyone had this happen with the latest version? > 6. Is IXGEN available for the latest Frame? > 7. Is Frame to RTF conversion good? We save Frame files to RTF to send to > authors for updating their chapters. (People would always need an > explanation of why we used the RTF Japanese for the setting.) > 8. How do you open old Frame 7 files if you have Frame 2019? The online > manual for 2019 says you have to open Frame 7 files as MIF. But in order to > change them to MIF, don't you have to convert them from within Frame 7? Can > you choose to open them as MIF from 2019 itself? And what about the .book > file? Is that preserved if you open all its enclosed files in MIF, or is it > an option to save a whole old book as MIF so that generated files are also > converted? Would we have to convert all our Frame 7 books to MIF before > installing Frame 2019 (or can you have both versions of Frame installed on > your computer at the same time?)? And do you have to replace fonts for > Unicode ones? > 9. Now that Frame has EPUB format as an output, is it good? Is the > unstructured version capable of it? Does it involve cleanup to make the > EPUB presentable? Are all the links in the Frame file
Re: [Framers] Questions re upgrading Frame from 7.1
Unicode support was added in FM8. However, I don't believe that FM requires the font support Unicode; Adobe certainly has quite a few fonts that aren't Unicode. As long as it's installed on the machine, it should be available. On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 1:39 PM Jeff Coatsworth < jeff.coatswo...@jonasclub.com> wrote: > Yup, long post alright! > I would suggest that you find a non-production machine and install a trial > copy of FM2019 - make sure you immediately perform updates on it (just > because you just downloaded it, doesn't mean that it's up to date - it's > like version 1.0 - there's been 5 patches so far). The good news is that > you only have to do Help > Updates once, because FM patches are now > cumulative, rather than sequential (yay!) > Next, bring over a copy of your FM7.1 content & give upgrading it a try. > Since I can't recall when FM went through the Unicode barrier thing, you > may find your fonts to be an issue. The UI will be completely different to > you. Just play around and experiment. > > > > From: Framers jonasclub@lists.frameusers.com> on behalf of Wendy McGovern < > wmcgov...@pbi.org> > Sent: March 31, 2020 8:01 AM > To: framers@lists.frameusers.com > Cc: publications > Subject: [Framers] Questions re upgrading Frame from 7.1 > > Hi, Framers, > Apologies for a somewhat long post, but I would really like some input. We > are contemplating finally upgrading from our Frame 7.1 (yep, had it for 17 > years) to the newest version (Frame 2019). Our version of Frame has been > ridiculously stable and its amazing features have served our purposes > without having to upgrade over the years. We upgraded our computers to > Windows 10 last year, but the 32-bit Frame has worked in that system so > far. We do get messages about fonts changing when we change print driver to > Adobe for making PDFs, but it hasn't had any ill effects for us. Some > background: > We do legal books in Frame that use the generated files feature for > summary and tables of contents, tables of cases, tables of statutes, and > subject matter indexes. Most of our books have extensive footnotes (lawyers > love to include footnotes that go on for 7/8ths of a page). We make PDFs of > the books as well as send MIF files to a conversion company for EPUBs. We > use unstructured Frame and don't need structure for anything. We don't use > conditional text for anything. Recently, I had an incidence of Frame files > in a book I was working on get corrupted where paragraphs had been > bizarrely messed up and lost the work I had done on the files in the last > week or so. Another coworker had saved a Frame file to RTF and later > couldn't open the Frame file again because it said it didn't recognize the > file format. This is leading us to believe that maybe it is finally time > for us to bite the bullet and upgrade to be compatible with all the other > software out there now. So, some specific questio > ns (keeping in mind the unstructured environment): > 1. I was going to ask if Frame 2019 allows the old Escape key sequences of > Esc-jj and Esc-cc to work, because I saw on the list that they broke those > functions in the later versions-but I see from the Frame 2019 manual online > that they have restored those functions in 2019. So this functionality > works well now? > 2. Is Frame ever going to fix the footnotes problem? I've replied to > Adobe's feature requests over the years, and they still don't have a fix. > 3. Is Frame 2019 stable as far as people using it now can tell? (I've seen > some posts here about problems creating PDFs and other things that > shouldn't be happening with recent versions of Frame.) > 4. There was a small problem with Frame 7.1's ability to use the scroll > wheel that needed a special mouse driver that we had to use and we had to > reinstall it when we went to Windows 10, but once the driver was in place, > it was fixed. I'm assuming Frame 2019 doesn't have any issues like this > anymore, right? > 5. Another minor problem with our Frame is a glitch where if you hold down > the mouse a little too long when selecting something, Frame will crash. Has > anyone had this happen with the latest version? > 6. Is IXGEN available for the latest Frame? > 7. Is Frame to RTF conversion good? We save Frame files to RTF to send to > authors for updating their chapters. (People would always need an > explanation of why we used the RTF Japanese for the setting.) > 8. How do you open old Frame 7 files if you have Frame 2019? The online > manual for 2019 says you have to open Frame 7 files as MIF. But in order to > change them to MIF, don't you have to convert them from within Frame 7? Can > you choose to open them as MIF from 2019 itself? And what about the .book > file? Is that preserved if you open all its enclosed files in MIF, or is it > an option to save a whole old book as MIF so that generated files are also > converted? Would we have to convert all our Frame 7 books to
Re: [Framers] Questions re upgrading Frame from 7.1
I don't have FrameMaker 2019, but I'll answer a couple of these. 4. The scroll wheel issue was fixed long ago. Version 8? 8. Frame will open old Frame files, but once you save them, they will be in a new version that will no longer be openable by FrameMaker 7, without conversion. I believe FM 2019 will let you save as MIF 7-- though if you have used features that were not available in FM 7 days, you may lose some data. I have no experience with this. Others will be able to help more. There are also some fine, inexpensive scripts out there that let you save back to various FM versions-- but again, some things created with new version can't save backward. There may also be some character conversion issues moving files in either direction. FrameMaker 8 moved to Unicode. So there are issues with the way some characters display (if at all) when you move files back and forth across that boundary. 10. I HATE the subscription model. FrameMaker 2019 still has the perpetual license available. and I implore you to go the perpetual license route so that the option doesn't disappear. It has disappeared for the other important Adobe products. Subscriptions are nice in that they can budget the high cost of software on a monthly basis, but they are a poor value in the long run. Subscriptions cost more in the long run. Adobe upgrades FrameMaker approximately every 18 months. It is $400 to upgrade the perpetual license (if you own the most recent version), but it is $540 to rent the software on the subscription model for the same period. Not only that, but a perpetual license is an asset. If you sell your company, it increases the valley of your asking price. You can even sell the license standalone and get some or all your $1000 back. But with the subscription model, FrameMaker is not an asset. You get an expense and a contract liability. instead. MOST IMPORTANTLY, if you ever stop paying the monthly rental, your software quits. You are done working in FrameMaker, unless your files can be converted safely back to your old FM7 version-- and you better do the conversion before the subscription runs out and FrameMaker turns off! Mike On 3/31/2020 7:01 AM, Wendy McGovern wrote: Hi, Framers, Apologies for a somewhat long post, but I would really like some input. We are contemplating finally upgrading from our Frame 7.1 (yep, had it for 17 years) to the newest version (Frame 2019). Our version of Frame has been ridiculously stable and its amazing features have served our purposes without having to upgrade over the years. We upgraded our computers to Windows 10 last year, but the 32-bit Frame has worked in that system so far. We do get messages about fonts changing when we change print driver to Adobe for making PDFs, but it hasn't had any ill effects for us. Some background: We do legal books in Frame that use the generated files feature for summary and tables of contents, tables of cases, tables of statutes, and subject matter indexes. Most of our books have extensive footnotes (lawyers love to include footnotes that go on for 7/8ths of a page). We make PDFs of the books as well as send MIF files to a conversion company for EPUBs. We use unstructured Frame and don't need structure for anything. We don't use conditional text for anything. Recently, I had an incidence of Frame files in a book I was working on get corrupted where paragraphs had been bizarrely messed up and lost the work I had done on the files in the last week or so. Another coworker had saved a Frame file to RTF and later couldn't open the Frame file again because it said it didn't recognize the file format. This is leading us to believe that maybe it is finally time for us to bite the bullet and upgrade to be compatible with all the other software out there now. So, some specific quest io ns (keeping in mind the unstructured environment): 1. I was going to ask if Frame 2019 allows the old Escape key sequences of Esc-jj and Esc-cc to work, because I saw on the list that they broke those functions in the later versions-but I see from the Frame 2019 manual online that they have restored those functions in 2019. So this functionality works well now? 2. Is Frame ever going to fix the footnotes problem? I've replied to Adobe's feature requests over the years, and they still don't have a fix. 3. Is Frame 2019 stable as far as people using it now can tell? (I've seen some posts here about problems creating PDFs and other things that shouldn't be happening with recent versions of Frame.) 4. There was a small problem with Frame 7.1's ability to use the scroll wheel that needed a special mouse driver that we had to use and we had to reinstall it when we went to Windows 10, but once the driver was in place, it was fixed. I'm assuming Frame 2019 doesn't have any issues like this anymore, right? 5. Another minor problem with our Frame is a glitch where if you hold down the mouse a little too long when
Re: [Framers] Questions re upgrading Frame from 7.1
Yup, long post alright! I would suggest that you find a non-production machine and install a trial copy of FM2019 - make sure you immediately perform updates on it (just because you just downloaded it, doesn't mean that it's up to date - it's like version 1.0 - there's been 5 patches so far). The good news is that you only have to do Help > Updates once, because FM patches are now cumulative, rather than sequential (yay!) Next, bring over a copy of your FM7.1 content & give upgrading it a try. Since I can't recall when FM went through the Unicode barrier thing, you may find your fonts to be an issue. The UI will be completely different to you. Just play around and experiment. From: Framers on behalf of Wendy McGovern Sent: March 31, 2020 8:01 AM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Cc: publications Subject: [Framers] Questions re upgrading Frame from 7.1 Hi, Framers, Apologies for a somewhat long post, but I would really like some input. We are contemplating finally upgrading from our Frame 7.1 (yep, had it for 17 years) to the newest version (Frame 2019). Our version of Frame has been ridiculously stable and its amazing features have served our purposes without having to upgrade over the years. We upgraded our computers to Windows 10 last year, but the 32-bit Frame has worked in that system so far. We do get messages about fonts changing when we change print driver to Adobe for making PDFs, but it hasn't had any ill effects for us. Some background: We do legal books in Frame that use the generated files feature for summary and tables of contents, tables of cases, tables of statutes, and subject matter indexes. Most of our books have extensive footnotes (lawyers love to include footnotes that go on for 7/8ths of a page). We make PDFs of the books as well as send MIF files to a conversion company for EPUBs. We use unstructured Frame and don't need structure for anything. We don't use conditional text for anything. Recently, I had an incidence of Frame files in a book I was working on get corrupted where paragraphs had been bizarrely messed up and lost the work I had done on the files in the last week or so. Another coworker had saved a Frame file to RTF and later couldn't open the Frame file again because it said it didn't recognize the file format. This is leading us to believe that maybe it is finally time for us to bite the bullet and upgrade to be compatible with all the other software out there now. So, some specific questio ns (keeping in mind the unstructured environment): 1. I was going to ask if Frame 2019 allows the old Escape key sequences of Esc-jj and Esc-cc to work, because I saw on the list that they broke those functions in the later versions-but I see from the Frame 2019 manual online that they have restored those functions in 2019. So this functionality works well now? 2. Is Frame ever going to fix the footnotes problem? I've replied to Adobe's feature requests over the years, and they still don't have a fix. 3. Is Frame 2019 stable as far as people using it now can tell? (I've seen some posts here about problems creating PDFs and other things that shouldn't be happening with recent versions of Frame.) 4. There was a small problem with Frame 7.1's ability to use the scroll wheel that needed a special mouse driver that we had to use and we had to reinstall it when we went to Windows 10, but once the driver was in place, it was fixed. I'm assuming Frame 2019 doesn't have any issues like this anymore, right? 5. Another minor problem with our Frame is a glitch where if you hold down the mouse a little too long when selecting something, Frame will crash. Has anyone had this happen with the latest version? 6. Is IXGEN available for the latest Frame? 7. Is Frame to RTF conversion good? We save Frame files to RTF to send to authors for updating their chapters. (People would always need an explanation of why we used the RTF Japanese for the setting.) 8. How do you open old Frame 7 files if you have Frame 2019? The online manual for 2019 says you have to open Frame 7 files as MIF. But in order to change them to MIF, don't you have to convert them from within Frame 7? Can you choose to open them as MIF from 2019 itself? And what about the .book file? Is that preserved if you open all its enclosed files in MIF, or is it an option to save a whole old book as MIF so that generated files are also converted? Would we have to convert all our Frame 7 books to MIF before installing Frame 2019 (or can you have both versions of Frame installed on your computer at the same time?)? And do you have to replace fonts for Unicode ones? 9. Now that Frame has EPUB format as an output, is it good? Is the unstructured version capable of it? Does it involve cleanup to make the EPUB presentable? Are all the links in the Frame file preserved in the EPUB? 10. Finally, what do people think of the subscription model versus buying an
