[Framework-Team] Re: Plone 5 - rough roadmap
On 25-03-2010 02.58, Martin Aspeli wrote: It's also not so easy because at least two books in print mention XDV, as do three or four tutorials on plone.org. I think we need a damned good reason to rename, more so than this name is cooler. XDV isn't a name. It is 3 letters. It doesn't even mean anything real. It stands for DeliVerance reimplemented in XSLT (IIRC), which says nothing to anyone outside the small group of developers who are part of the discussion related to these frameworks. A name should at least convey some meaning. -- Geir Bækholt www.jarn.com/baekholt ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
Re: [Framework-Team] Re: Plone 5 - rough roadmap
On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 6:58 PM, Martin Aspeli optilude+li...@gmail.comoptilude%2bli...@gmail.com wrote: It's not *quite* that easy, though, because people will have things like collective.xdv in their buildouts. If an upgrade means installing something else, then in the worst case that something else could actively conflict with an old installation, and we're in trouble. Also keep in mind that package name doesn't have to be the product name. We're not called CMFPlone. ;) It's also not so easy because at least two books in print mention XDV, as do three or four tutorials on plone.org. I think we need a damned good reason to rename, more so than this name is cooler. I also think we should ask the broader community's reaction first. The community is tiny, tiny until it ships with a Plone release. Now is the time to do it. -- Alexander Limi · http://limi.net ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
Re: [Framework-Team] Re: Plone 5 - rough roadmap
On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 12:45 PM, Steve McMahon st...@dcn.org wrote: How about Pastiche ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastiche Or the simpler http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastis — which seems appropriate. ;) (not being serious here, I also think pastiche is way too hard for most people to remember the spelling of :P ) -- Alexander Limi · http://limi.net ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
[Framework-Team] Re: Plone 5 - rough roadmap
Alexander Limi wrote: On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 12:45 PM, Steve McMahon st...@dcn.org mailto:st...@dcn.org wrote: How about Pastiche ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastiche Or the simpler http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastis — which seems appropriate. ;) (not being serious here, I also think pastiche is way too hard for most people to remember the spelling of :P ) Yeah, I don't think that has any advantage over XDV in case of discoverability. Martin -- Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
[Framework-Team] Re: Plone 5 - rough roadmap
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Alexander Limi wrote: On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 6:58 PM, Martin Aspeli optilude+li...@gmail.comoptilude%2blists-re5jqeeqqe8avxtiumw...@public.gmane.org wrote: It's not *quite* that easy, though, because people will have things like collective.xdv in their buildouts. If an upgrade means installing something else, then in the worst case that something else could actively conflict with an old installation, and we're in trouble. Also keep in mind that package name doesn't have to be the product name. We're not called CMFPlone. ;) It's also not so easy because at least two books in print mention XDV, as do three or four tutorials on plone.org. I think we need a damned good reason to rename, more so than this name is cooler. I also think we should ask the broader community's reaction first. The community is tiny, tiny until it ships with a Plone release. Now is the time to do it. The decision is not really in this group's hands, though: XDV is a project which has its own life outside of Plone. Tres. - -- === Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 tsea...@palladion.com Palladion Software Excellence by Designhttp://palladion.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkusCY0ACgkQ+gerLs4ltQ6e6ACg2RFFb2shJRQ0ozPS7LoAuqNZ ZDkAn38JJ+Q8SceJ6JV46ls2ZCdYDGKO =ea7g -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
Re: [Framework-Team] Re: Plone 5 - rough roadmap
I guess I'm -0 on renaming. If someone comes up with a great new name then fine, but given it's one of the two hard problems in computer science, I'm not holding my breath ;) Laurence ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
[Framework-Team] Re: Plone 5 - rough roadmap
Tres Seaver wrote: The decision is not really in this group's hands, though: XDV is a project which has its own life outside of Plone. Agree - hence my comment that we'd need to seek broader community input. Before we can do that, we'd need to have a better proposal, though. And in the meantime, I want a new XDV + collective.xdv release. ;-) Martin -- Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
[Framework-Team] Re: Plone 5 - rough roadmap
On 23-03-2010 22.52, Alexander Limi wrote: +1 to xdv as long as it gets a decent new name. ;) YES! — And let's make sure to rename it soon, before it gets widespread mainstream acceptance -- Geir Bækholt www.jarn.com/baekholt ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
[Framework-Team] Re: Plone 5 - rough roadmap
Geir Bækholt wrote: On 23-03-2010 22.52, Alexander Limi wrote: +1 to xdv as long as it gets a decent new name. ;) YES! — And let's make sure to rename it soon, before it gets widespread mainstream acceptance If someone has a really great name, I'd consider it, but I think the ship may've sailed. Renaming now is likely to cause a lot of confusion. Martin -- Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
Re: [Framework-Team] Re: Plone 5 - rough roadmap
On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 2:38 AM, Martin Aspeli optilude+li...@gmail.com wrote: Geir Bækholt wrote: On 23-03-2010 22.52, Alexander Limi wrote: +1 to xdv as long as it gets a decent new name. ;) YES! — And let's make sure to rename it soon, before it gets widespread mainstream acceptance If someone has a really great name, I'd consider it, but I think the ship may've sailed. Renaming now is likely to cause a lot of confusion. How about something very simple like Theme Builder? (collective.themebuilder). Short, says what it does, sounds approachable. We can pretty easily refer to it as Theme Builder (formerly XDV) for a little while. What I learned in the last year at Groundwire (formerly ONE/Northwest) is that changing the name of something is easier than you'd think, if the thing you're renaming is something people like and want to work with. :-) :jon ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
Re: [Framework-Team] Re: Plone 5 - rough roadmap
On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 5:58 PM, Jon Stahl jonst...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 2:38 AM, Martin Aspeli optilude+li...@gmail.com wrote: If someone has a really great name, I'd consider it, but I think the ship may've sailed. Renaming now is likely to cause a lot of confusion. How about something very simple like Theme Builder? (collective.themebuilder). Short, says what it does, sounds approachable. We can pretty easily refer to it as Theme Builder (formerly XDV) for a little while. I'd suggest that it keeps a name that has nothing to do with the Plone (or collective) brand. The technology isn't Plone specific, which is one of its selling points. A Plone integration package like the current collective.xdv can have a Plone specific name, though. Hanno ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
Re: [Framework-Team] Re: Plone 5 - rough roadmap
How about Pastiche ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastiche A quick review didn't find any significant open-source projects with that name, and pastiche.com is not in the web/software space. On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 10:03 AM, Hanno Schlichting ha...@hannosch.euwrote: On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 5:58 PM, Jon Stahl jonst...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 2:38 AM, Martin Aspeli optilude+li...@gmail.comoptilude%2bli...@gmail.com wrote: If someone has a really great name, I'd consider it, but I think the ship may've sailed. Renaming now is likely to cause a lot of confusion. How about something very simple like Theme Builder? (collective.themebuilder). Short, says what it does, sounds approachable. We can pretty easily refer to it as Theme Builder (formerly XDV) for a little while. I'd suggest that it keeps a name that has nothing to do with the Plone (or collective) brand. The technology isn't Plone specific, which is one of its selling points. A Plone integration package like the current collective.xdv can have a Plone specific name, though. Hanno ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
[Framework-Team] Re: Plone 5 - rough roadmap
Jon Stahl wrote: On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 2:38 AM, Martin Aspelioptilude+li...@gmail.com wrote: Geir Bækholt wrote: On 23-03-2010 22.52, Alexander Limi wrote: +1 to xdv as long as it gets a decent new name. ;) YES! — And let's make sure to rename it soon, before it gets widespread mainstream acceptance If someone has a really great name, I'd consider it, but I think the ship may've sailed. Renaming now is likely to cause a lot of confusion. How about something very simple like Theme Builder? (collective.themebuilder). Short, says what it does, sounds approachable. We can pretty easily refer to it as Theme Builder (formerly XDV) for a little while. What I learned in the last year at Groundwire (formerly ONE/Northwest) is that changing the name of something is easier than you'd think, if the thing you're renaming is something people like and want to work with. :-) It's not *quite* that easy, though, because people will have things like collective.xdv in their buildouts. If an upgrade means installing something else, then in the worst case that something else could actively conflict with an old installation, and we're in trouble. It's also not so easy because at least two books in print mention XDV, as do three or four tutorials on plone.org. I think we need a damned good reason to rename, more so than this name is cooler. I also think we should ask the broader community's reaction first. Martin -- Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
[Framework-Team] Re: Plone 5 - rough roadmap
On 03/12/2010 04:07 PM, Hanno Schlichting wrote: Hi there, ... On the future side we have: - Chameleon - Deco / Blocks - Dexterity - WSGI - xdv as the default theming story Is there still discussion space to choose between xdv and Deliverance. I'm not to deep in the subject but I have heard that Deliverance can be used with other web-applications, but xdv is Plone specific. If this is true, Deliverance would open Plone to a broader community. Just my 2 Cents. -Tom - deprecate portal_skins - ... ... Does this kind of roadmap has general agreement? Hanno ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
[Framework-Team] Re: Plone 5 - rough roadmap
Tom Gross wrote: On 03/12/2010 04:07 PM, Hanno Schlichting wrote: Hi there, ... On the future side we have: - Chameleon - Deco / Blocks - Dexterity - WSGI - xdv as the default theming story Is there still discussion space to choose between xdv and Deliverance. I'm not to deep in the subject but I have heard that Deliverance can be used with other web-applications, but xdv is Plone specific. If this is true, Deliverance would open Plone to a broader community. Where did you hear that? It's not correct. ;-) Deliverance is a Python-based implementation. It is used either as a standalone proxy or in a WSGI pipeline. As such, it may be attractive to people with a WSGI-oriented stack. It also has more client-side tools and is generally broader in scope than XDV. XDV is an XSLT-based implementation. You compile theme + rules into an XSLT, which is then deployed either in a WSGI pipeline step, or in a web server like nginx or Apache. As such, it is even broader in scope in the sense that it's not tied to Python. collective.xdv is a Plone control panel + hook to apply an XDV theme without the need for a fronting web server. This is a good solution for people with no further integration needs. However, the same theme + rules can be compiled and deployed as an XSLT if that's desirable. Probably the most important deciding factor is that XDV is more lightweight, overlaps less with existing tools, should be faster, and - crucially - has more uptake in the community. With Plone 3 and Plone 4 at least it's also easier to set up and deploy than Deliverance, which ether requires a standalone process that proxies to Zope, or adoptation of repoze.zope2 to get a WSGI stack in Zope. Martin -- Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
Re: [Framework-Team] Re: Plone 5 - rough roadmap
+1 to xdv as long as it gets a decent new name. ;) Now that xdv supports CSS-style selectors, it's by far the most compelling choice. On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 2:29 AM, Martin Aspeli optilude+li...@gmail.comoptilude%2bli...@gmail.com wrote: Tom Gross wrote: On 03/12/2010 04:07 PM, Hanno Schlichting wrote: Hi there, ... On the future side we have: - Chameleon - Deco / Blocks - Dexterity - WSGI - xdv as the default theming story Is there still discussion space to choose between xdv and Deliverance. I'm not to deep in the subject but I have heard that Deliverance can be used with other web-applications, but xdv is Plone specific. If this is true, Deliverance would open Plone to a broader community. Where did you hear that? It's not correct. ;-) Deliverance is a Python-based implementation. It is used either as a standalone proxy or in a WSGI pipeline. As such, it may be attractive to people with a WSGI-oriented stack. It also has more client-side tools and is generally broader in scope than XDV. XDV is an XSLT-based implementation. You compile theme + rules into an XSLT, which is then deployed either in a WSGI pipeline step, or in a web server like nginx or Apache. As such, it is even broader in scope in the sense that it's not tied to Python. collective.xdv is a Plone control panel + hook to apply an XDV theme without the need for a fronting web server. This is a good solution for people with no further integration needs. However, the same theme + rules can be compiled and deployed as an XSLT if that's desirable. Probably the most important deciding factor is that XDV is more lightweight, overlaps less with existing tools, should be faster, and - crucially - has more uptake in the community. With Plone 3 and Plone 4 at least it's also easier to set up and deploy than Deliverance, which ether requires a standalone process that proxies to Zope, or adoptation of repoze.zope2 to get a WSGI stack in Zope. Martin -- Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team -- Alexander Limi · http://limi.net ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
[Framework-Team] Re: Plone 5 - rough roadmap
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Martin Aspeli wrote: Tom Gross wrote: On 03/12/2010 04:07 PM, Hanno Schlichting wrote: Hi there, ... On the future side we have: - Chameleon - Deco / Blocks - Dexterity - WSGI - xdv as the default theming story Is there still discussion space to choose between xdv and Deliverance. I'm not to deep in the subject but I have heard that Deliverance can be used with other web-applications, but xdv is Plone specific. If this is true, Deliverance would open Plone to a broader community. Where did you hear that? It's not correct. ;-) Deliverance is a Python-based implementation. It is used either as a standalone proxy or in a WSGI pipeline. As such, it may be attractive to people with a WSGI-oriented stack. It also has more client-side tools and is generally broader in scope than XDV. XDV is an XSLT-based implementation. You compile theme + rules into an XSLT, which is then deployed either in a WSGI pipeline step, or in a web server like nginx or Apache. As such, it is even broader in scope in the sense that it's not tied to Python. collective.xdv is a Plone control panel + hook to apply an XDV theme without the need for a fronting web server. This is a good solution for people with no further integration needs. However, the same theme + rules can be compiled and deployed as an XSLT if that's desirable. Probably the most important deciding factor is that XDV is more lightweight, overlaps less with existing tools, should be faster, and - crucially - has more uptake in the community. With Plone 3 and Plone 4 at least it's also easier to set up and deploy than Deliverance, which ether requires a standalone process that proxies to Zope, or adoptation of repoze.zope2 to get a WSGI stack in Zope. /me notes 'Subject:' I am certain that Zope2's WSGI story will be hammered out long before Plone5 needs to freeze on a Zope2 version. repoze.zope2 will *not* be required to run Zope2 behind a WSGI server. Tres. - -- === Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 tsea...@palladion.com Palladion Software Excellence by Designhttp://palladion.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkupOD0ACgkQ+gerLs4ltQ72ngCgk/kZK4jrMQdFZIWHPIj2gnQx KacAnitpxxbnMlYqXCfGSROZuUsmdWne =Qspa -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
[Framework-Team] Re: Plone 5 - rough roadmap
Hanno Schlichting wrote: Hi there, with Plone 4 beta 1 out the door and the 4.0 framework team having done its job, it's time to look ahead into the future a bit. Eric has started the discussion around Plone 4.1 already, I'll let him drive that process :) But I had a look at the PLIP's we have seen and feature discussion we had in the past. Currently listed for Plone 4.x are things like: - Include plone.app.registry - Include z3c.form - Improved commenting infrastructure - Improving the event type with recurrence, etc. - New roles : Webmaster/site administrator and novice users - Unified interface for lists of content - New collections UI - Well formed, valid XHTML (as a foundation for easier theming via xdv) - ... tons of new or better features I think there's lots of good stuff in there. I think with Plone 4.0 as a new technical basis we need some time to make Plone the product better again. Image and media handling, better usability, better support for common tasks, more content lifecycle management, ... there's a lot we can and should do here. Figuring out what exactly should be part of Plone Core won't be easy, but I have a feeling our feature set is lacking behind the competition in various ways now. On the future side we have: - Chameleon - Deco / Blocks - Dexterity - WSGI - xdv as the default theming story - deprecate portal_skins - ... I don't want to go into the details of any one of those, but my general feeling is that none of these are anywhere ready to be shipped as part of Plone Core. My current idea would therefor be to aim for a Plone 5.0 release roughly 18 to 24 months after Plone 4.0 final is released. We could aim for 18 months if we only do a 4.1 release, but I assume we are going to do a 4.2 release as well (both taking about 9 months from experience). At that point 24 months is more realistic. That means these technologies and projects will need to evolve outside the core for some time. I'd hope they could bring up some PLIP's for 4.1 and 4.2 which will make their life easier - much like Dexterity has already done with CMF 2.2 and Plone 4.0. Sometimes these might just be events, interfaces and some more adapters to make things independent of Archetypes. Does this kind of roadmap has general agreement? +1 I think that in trying to build the real Deco + Dexterity + WSGI publisher + Chameleon + Skins deprecation as add-ons for Plone 4.0 *now*, we'll end up driving features for Plone 4.1. That is, the work for Plone 5 probably starts in parallel with the work for Plone 4.1, i.e. very soon if not already. Martin -- Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
