Re: [Framework-Team] PLIP 238: Disable inline editing by default
On Oct 28, 2008, at 10:20 PM, Danny Bloemendaal wrote: Well, I am all in favor of having the UI fixed. Perhaps some of the kss boys can do this. You need to have a hover event that shows a button next to the widget (button can styles using css into a pencil or something) and the click should trigger the edit mode. i may be wrong, of course, but i doubt anybody of the framework team would have voted for plip238 if we had such an implementation ;-) heck, if we had had a plip for the above scenario, that would have been voted in and wiggy probably would have never created #238. IOW: i'd rather disable a suboptimal implementation of a potentially cool feature (#238) than wait for an uncertain amount of time until we have a UI fix for that feature. I think that jeroen vloothuis could do this in an afternoon. we could ask him to help. please do! if he comes up with something, i'd like to propose that we treat his patch as an 'alternative implementation of #238', i.e. if we think of #238 as 'fixing inline editing' then jeroen's patch could still become part of plone 3.3 instead of sticking it into a new plip (which would then obviously have to wait until 3.4) just my $0.02, tom On 28 okt 2008, at 18:18, Wichert Akkerman wrote: Previously Alan Runyan wrote: On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 10:46 AM, Alec Mitchell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is it really that much work to fix the ui for starting an edit? I think there are a lot of people who like this feature, but are frustrated by the UI. Disabling it does nothing to fix that though, it's just another regression to work around what many consider a real UI bug. I agree. Who owns this part of the UI? No part of the UI is 'owned'. If someone has a better implementation I'm all for that, but I don't have the right skillset to implement it. Until then this PLIP improves the currently situation quite a bit. Wichert. -- Wichert Akkerman [EMAIL PROTECTED]It is simple to make things. http://www.wiggy.net/ It is hard to make things simple. ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
Re: [Framework-Team] PLIP 238: Disable inline editing by default
On 29 okt 2008, at 10:05, Tom Lazar wrote: On Oct 28, 2008, at 10:20 PM, Danny Bloemendaal wrote: Well, I am all in favor of having the UI fixed. Perhaps some of the kss boys can do this. You need to have a hover event that shows a button next to the widget (button can styles using css into a pencil or something) and the click should trigger the edit mode. i may be wrong, of course, but i doubt anybody of the framework team would have voted for plip238 if we had such an implementation ;-) heck, if we had had a plip for the above scenario, that would have been voted in and wiggy probably would have never created #238. IOW: i'd rather disable a suboptimal implementation of a potentially cool feature (#238) than wait for an uncertain amount of time until we have a UI fix for that feature. I think that jeroen vloothuis could do this in an afternoon. we could ask him to help. please do! if he comes up with something, i'd like to propose that we treat his patch as an 'alternative implementation of #238', i.e. if we think of #238 as 'fixing inline editing' then jeroen's patch could still become part of plone 3.3 instead of sticking it into a new plip (which would then obviously have to wait until 3.4) just my $0.02, tom I talked to Jeroen and he believes it is not hard to do so I asked him to do it on top of this plip (http://plone.org/products/plone/roadmap/238 ). He is not garanteeing that it will be finished in time for 3.3 but we'll see. ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
Re: [Framework-Team] PLIP 238: Disable inline editing by default
Wichert Akkerman wrote: I want to propose PLIP 238: Disable inline editing by default Motivation -- I suspect that by now most of us have realized that the current inline editing behaviour in Plone 3 is not very practical. It has two main problems: * it is very easily triggered by default, which causes unwanted edit fields to be opened which have to be manually closed. This happens because many, if not most, people click accidentily, select text to keep track of the reading position, try to select text to copypaste it or for other reasons. Since every single click activates inline edit this happens all too often and becomes very frustrating over time. * as Alexander mentioned in his new UI proposal what you really want is a quick option to go to a full edit-mode. Editing a single field is a much less common operation than we were expecting. I can't think of a single Plone deployment I have been involved in for the last 6 months where we have not disabled inline editing, which strengthens my believe that the current default is wrong. Proposal - Current Plone releases have a simple toggle to enable or disable inline editing. I propose that we change the default for newly created sites to disabled. Please note that I do not propose to disable inline field validation in edit screens: that is a very useful and desirable feature. Wichert. +1 on just changing the default. Raphael PS: And while we are at this: personally I do like inline editing for simple fields like title, description, a date and such. But where I really HATE it is when it comes to text fields as they often contain a large body of text that you want to scroll through, that has links embedded that you want to click etc. But that's not the matter of this PLIP and it seems like we are going to see more on this soon anyway. ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
Re: [Framework-Team] PLIP 238: Disable inline editing by default
Is it really that much work to fix the ui for starting an edit? I think there are a lot of people who like this feature, but are frustrated by the UI. Disabling it does nothing to fix that though, it's just another regression to work around what many consider a real UI bug. Alec On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 8:08 AM, Raphael Ritz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wichert Akkerman wrote: I want to propose PLIP 238: Disable inline editing by default Motivation -- I suspect that by now most of us have realized that the current inline editing behaviour in Plone 3 is not very practical. It has two main problems: * it is very easily triggered by default, which causes unwanted edit fields to be opened which have to be manually closed. This happens because many, if not most, people click accidentily, select text to keep track of the reading position, try to select text to copypaste it or for other reasons. Since every single click activates inline edit this happens all too often and becomes very frustrating over time. * as Alexander mentioned in his new UI proposal what you really want is a quick option to go to a full edit-mode. Editing a single field is a much less common operation than we were expecting. I can't think of a single Plone deployment I have been involved in for the last 6 months where we have not disabled inline editing, which strengthens my believe that the current default is wrong. Proposal - Current Plone releases have a simple toggle to enable or disable inline editing. I propose that we change the default for newly created sites to disabled. Please note that I do not propose to disable inline field validation in edit screens: that is a very useful and desirable feature. Wichert. +1 on just changing the default. Raphael PS: And while we are at this: personally I do like inline editing for simple fields like title, description, a date and such. But where I really HATE it is when it comes to text fields as they often contain a large body of text that you want to scroll through, that has links embedded that you want to click etc. But that's not the matter of this PLIP and it seems like we are going to see more on this soon anyway. ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
Re: [Framework-Team] PLIP 238: Disable inline editing by default
On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 10:46 AM, Alec Mitchell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is it really that much work to fix the ui for starting an edit? I think there are a lot of people who like this feature, but are frustrated by the UI. Disabling it does nothing to fix that though, it's just another regression to work around what many consider a real UI bug. I agree. Who owns this part of the UI? -- Alan Runyan Enfold Systems, Inc. http://www.enfoldsystems.com/ phone: +1.713.942.2377x111 fax: +1.832.201.8856 ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
Re: [Framework-Team] PLIP 238: Disable inline editing by default
Previously Alan Runyan wrote: On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 10:46 AM, Alec Mitchell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is it really that much work to fix the ui for starting an edit? I think there are a lot of people who like this feature, but are frustrated by the UI. Disabling it does nothing to fix that though, it's just another regression to work around what many consider a real UI bug. I agree. Who owns this part of the UI? No part of the UI is 'owned'. If someone has a better implementation I'm all for that, but I don't have the right skillset to implement it. Until then this PLIP improves the currently situation quite a bit. Wichert. -- Wichert Akkerman [EMAIL PROTECTED]It is simple to make things. http://www.wiggy.net/ It is hard to make things simple. ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
Re: [Framework-Team] PLIP 238: Disable inline editing by default
On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 22:15, Wichert Akkerman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I want to propose PLIP 238: Disable inline editing by default Although we have a concensus to not remove, change or move major pieces of the UI, the inline editing feature is currently so confusing that I certainly feel this is an exception. +1 on this proposal. -- Martijn Pieters ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
Re: [Framework-Team] PLIP 238: Disable inline editing by default
On 10 Oct 2008, at 04:58, Danny Bloemendaal responded to Wichert's e-mail proposing http://plone.org/products/plone/roadmap/ 238: Proposal - Current Plone releases have a simple toggle to enable or disable inline editing. I propose that we change the default for newly created sites to disabled. My counter proposal is to make it optional and when enable refactor the trigger as described above. Both good ideas but with a focus on the original proposal, I'm in favour of -- to begin with, at least -- a change to the default for newly created sites. There's already a minor issue with Plone documentation http://dev.plone.org/plone.org/ticket/962 that ought to be addressed before outcomes of the proposal(s) are implemented. Also, a trivial issue with ZMI behaviour http://dev.plone.org/plone/ticket/8564 affecting managers of sites that were customised by hand before the dedicated option first appeared in ZMI. Minor and trivial, yes, but both highlight the need for a) consistency. and for b) documentation to keep pace with multiple implementations. Editing a single field is a much less common operation than we were expecting. Maybe uncommon but definitely useful. As an editing site manager I do often appreciate single field edition. I suggest–when enabled–that it doesn't trigger on single click but by clicking on a tiny icon that shows up next to the field when hovering over the field's value. Simple, unobtrusive and predictable. You could even do a fade-in on hover so that you don't see it when moving over the page. I'm conscious of points (a) and (b) above. Might Danny's suggestion become a streamlined PLIP? * as Alexander mentioned in his new UI proposal what you really want is a quick option to go to a full edit-mode. +1 Incidentally the comments routine at plone.org doesn't work for me http://dev.plone.org/plone.org/ticket/938 so if you receive on the Framework Team list any comments that might be better received at plone.org pages, please excuse me. With respect Graham ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
Re: [Framework-Team] PLIP 238: Disable inline editing by default
On 27 sep 2008, at 16:15, Wichert Akkerman wrote: I want to propose PLIP 238: Disable inline editing by default Motivation -- I suspect that by now most of us have realized that the current inline editing behaviour in Plone 3 is not very practical. It has two main problems: * it is very easily triggered by default, which causes unwanted edit fields to be opened which have to be manually closed. This happens because many, if not most, people click accidentily, select text to keep track of the reading position, try to select text to copypaste it or for other reasons. Since every single click activates inline edit this happens all too often and becomes very frustrating over time. I think that it's not caused by inline editing but by a bad UI choice here. I never ever understood why it was triggered by a single click. For me that is the only reason why I have this disabled in our intranets. I think that when done right this could still work well. So even if you make it optional, when enabled it should be done properly. I suggest–when enabled–that it doesn't trigger on single click but by clicking on a tiny icon that shows up next to the field when hovering over the field's value. Simple, unobtrusive and predictable. You could even do a fade-in on hover so that you don't see it when moving over the page. * as Alexander mentioned in his new UI proposal what you really want is a quick option to go to a full edit-mode. Editing a single field is a much less common operation than we were expecting. Yes, maybe but as we say in The Netherlands: a lot of water will have flown through the Rhine before that will have happened. In the mean time this could work as intentended. Proposal - Current Plone releases have a simple toggle to enable or disable inline editing. I propose that we change the default for newly created sites to disabled. My counter proposal is to make it optional and when enable refactor the trigger as described above. Danny. ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
