Re: [Frameworks] 16fps 16mm projectors?
In 2001 San Francisco Cinematheque projected Andy Warhol's *Sleep*, which is six hours (360 minutes) at 16fps. We started the show at midnight, expected it to end at 6am. We ran it at 18fps and the show got out at 5:30am (and in fact I just did the math and I think the difference over that time is closer to 45 minutes somehow). So that's a good cumulative difference but probably "minimal" (to quote David Sherman quoting David Gerstein) difference moment-to-moment in viewing. 18 (or 16)fps vs 24 fps is obviously a very big difference and there is always the (possibly apocryphal) story of Stan Brakhage viewing *Sleep *at 24fps and declaring it a farse, then at 16fps and declaring it a masterpiece. Not that Brakhage's word is unquestionable but this would make a huge difference in many of these films. As I'm sure most of us know... Steve Polta On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 5:26 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote: > The B&H filmosound in a box projectors (the 300 series) have universal > motors with mechanical governors, which can be adjusted for a variety of > speeds. If set according to the manual the silent speed is 16 fps, but > if no maintenance has been done it could be anything. They are truly > among the best projectors made, aside from the narrow barrel which severely > limits your lens selection. > > That said, I doubt the difference between 16 and 18 fps would be that > dramatic on screen. > --scott > ___ > FrameWorks mailing list > FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com > https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks > ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] 16fps 16mm projectors?
If you can find an old analyst projector (used for studying films as fast or slow as you want) you can go any speed. I have an old one here that needs a bit of work, but it is almost functional. Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Rogers network. Original Message From: Dave Tetzlaff Sent: Monday, August 3, 2015 23:26 To: Experimental Film Discussion List Reply To: Experimental Film Discussion List Subject: Re: [Frameworks] 16fps 16mm projectors? I don't know of any specific models, but since 16fps was once the standard, there must be really old 'silent only' projectors that run at that speed, yes? I vaguely recall that some sound projectors can be made to run at 16fps by changing a pulley. I'm guessing they wouldn't be Elmos or Eikis though. Maybe Singer/Graflex? Depending on how much the speed matters (and what kind of resources are available) you could probably get a custom pulley fabricated (and find a proper sized belt) for a Graflex or maybe some Bell and Howells that would make them go at 16fps. I wouldn't want to try that on a Pageant: too hard to take apart. CONFESSION OF HERESY! The first year I taught experimental, I rented a couple films that were meant for 16fps, but had only a 24fps projector to show them. Not good, just ruined 'Serene Velocity' for example. So i subsequently obtained (COUGH) video copies of the works in question that had been telecinied at 24fps, dropped them back to 16fps in Final Cut, output them at something our video system could play (I forget if it was 24P or 29.97 interlaced standard NTSC - this was pre-HD). Despite all the pull-down, frame blending, and what have you, they looked fine on screen, and having the intended speed made a huge difference for the better in the aesthetic - what had previously been all but inaccessible to the students (and me) became 'Oh. Now I get it!" BACK TO THE MECHANICAL That said, it all depends on the specific work. A lot of experimental films were made in light of exhibition conditions that would vary a lot from one screening to the next, including projector speed. The artists knew this was just how it was (whether they preferred it or not) and the works gained some kind of notoriety and identity in the world by having some aspect that transcended variations in exhibition contexts. That is to say, their aesthetic accommodated a fair measure of randomness. Which is all to say, while I wouldn't want to show anything specified for 16fps at 24fps, ever, I think a good number of films speced for 16fps work just fine - i.e. more-or-les the same - at 18fps. But others don't, YMMV etc. etc. > Hi all, anyone know of 16mm projectors that run at 16fps? As far as I know > most Pageants, Eikis and Elmos run at 18 if they have a silent speed. ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] 16fps 16mm projectors?
I don't know of any specific models, but since 16fps was once the standard, there must be really old 'silent only' projectors that run at that speed, yes? I vaguely recall that some sound projectors can be made to run at 16fps by changing a pulley. I'm guessing they wouldn't be Elmos or Eikis though. Maybe Singer/Graflex? Depending on how much the speed matters (and what kind of resources are available) you could probably get a custom pulley fabricated (and find a proper sized belt) for a Graflex or maybe some Bell and Howells that would make them go at 16fps. I wouldn't want to try that on a Pageant: too hard to take apart. CONFESSION OF HERESY! The first year I taught experimental, I rented a couple films that were meant for 16fps, but had only a 24fps projector to show them. Not good, just ruined 'Serene Velocity' for example. So i subsequently obtained (COUGH) video copies of the works in question that had been telecinied at 24fps, dropped them back to 16fps in Final Cut, output them at something our video system could play (I forget if it was 24P or 29.97 interlaced standard NTSC - this was pre-HD). Despite all the pull-down, frame blending, and what have you, they looked fine on screen, and having the intended speed made a huge difference for the better in the aesthetic - what had previously been all but inaccessible to the students (and me) became 'Oh. Now I get it!" BACK TO THE MECHANICAL That said, it all depends on the specific work. A lot of experimental films were made in light of exhibition conditions that would vary a lot from one screening to the next, including projector speed. The artists knew this was just how it was (whether they preferred it or not) and the works gained some kind of notoriety and identity in the world by having some aspect that transcended variations in exhibition contexts. That is to say, their aesthetic accommodated a fair measure of randomness. Which is all to say, while I wouldn't want to show anything specified for 16fps at 24fps, ever, I think a good number of films speced for 16fps work just fine - i.e. more-or-les the same - at 18fps. But others don't, YMMV etc. etc. > Hi all, anyone know of 16mm projectors that run at 16fps? As far as I know > most Pageants, Eikis and Elmos run at 18 if they have a silent speed. ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] 16fps 16mm projectors?
The B&H filmosound in a box projectors (the 300 series) have universal motors with mechanical governors, which can be adjusted for a variety of speeds. If set according to the manual the silent speed is 16 fps, but if no maintenance has been done it could be anything. They are truly among the best projectors made, aside from the narrow barrel which severely limits your lens selection. That said, I doubt the difference between 16 and 18 fps would be that dramatic on screen. --scott ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] 16fps 16mm projectors?
I remember talking to talking to David Gerstein when the SF Cinematheque showed Empire in the 1990's and I seem to recal that he said that the B&H Filmosound in a box projectors circ WWII ran silent at 16fps. I have one but haven't compared it to a silent running Pageant. -David On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 3:14 PM, Scott Stark wrote: > Hi all, anyone know of 16mm projectors that run at 16fps? As far as I know > most Pageants, Eikis and Elmos run at 18 if they have a silent speed. I > know some of the Warhol films were meant to run at 16fps. > > thanks, > Scott > > ___ > FrameWorks mailing list > FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com > https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks > -- David Sherman 646 E. 5th Street Tucson, AZ 8705 520-366-1573 www.explodedviewgallery.org www.davidshermanfilms.com ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] 16fps 16mm projectors?
Kodak Analyst maybe? Variable speed with line marking for 16 fps, though cannot recall, so perhaps someone else can verify? Earlier Kodak Analyst would dim when slowed, but I think the later model (II, etc) had better rheostat and douser so brightness was still decent when film speed was slowed down. Alain On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 3:14 PM, Scott Stark wrote: > Hi all, anyone know of 16mm projectors that run at 16fps? As far as I know > most Pageants, Eikis and Elmos run at 18 if they have a silent speed. I > know some of the Warhol films were meant to run at 16fps. > > thanks, > Scott > > ___ > FrameWorks mailing list > FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com > https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks > -- 40 FRAMES Portland, Oregon USA +1 503 231 6548 www.40frames.org www.16mmdirectory.org ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] 16fps 16mm projectors?
Hi Scott, I don't know of any portable 16mm projectors that run 16fps but some kinoton fp16 or fp18 projectors are equipped with variable speed motors that run 16fps. I just projected Haircut #1 at 16fps at the Media City Film Festival. I was using a beautiful Eastman 25 projector from Full Aperture Systems in Chicago. all the best, Kate On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 6:14 PM, Scott Stark wrote: > Hi all, anyone know of 16mm projectors that run at 16fps? As far as I know > most Pageants, Eikis and Elmos run at 18 if they have a silent speed. I > know some of the Warhol films were meant to run at 16fps. > > thanks, > Scott > > ___ > FrameWorks mailing list > FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com > https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks > ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
[Frameworks] 16fps 16mm projectors?
Hi all, anyone know of 16mm projectors that run at 16fps? As far as I know most Pageants, Eikis and Elmos run at 18 if they have a silent speed. I know some of the Warhol films were meant to run at 16fps. thanks, Scott ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
