Re: Fwd: Unified BSD?
On 12/4/2012 07:14, Aleksej Saushev wrote: Martinmartin.kelly4...@gmail.com writes: I can see how you could misunderstand what i said. My point was about that each of the BSD's use pkgsrc in a different way and the releases from FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD or DflyBSD don't all rely on the exact same packages for every release (i.e. NetBSD 6 and FreeBSD 9 do not use the same version of GNOME-2 desktop; poor example), and that generally per BSD release they generally blob the binaries that are compatible for that release together. No, pkgsrc is one for everyone, unless someone maintains his own branch. As far as I know, only DragonFly and SmartOS do, though nothing serious stops them from using original distribution. Thus NetBSD 6 and FreeBSD 9 use the same version of GNOME, provided that they use supported pkgsrc branch. DragonFly has a git mirror mirror of the pkgsrc cvs repository, but its contents are identical to what is in cvs. I would not classify this as maintaining its own branch. We use the same distribution as NetBSD. Just clarifying this statement to avoid misinformation. ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Fwd: Unified BSD?
Sorry forget that last message. GNOME was a bad example, but you did in essence you clarify my point. That FreeBSD or whichever one you talk about may or may not be using a different pkgsrc branch. I didn't call any components standardized, i said even if you *were* to standardize certain components for all BSDs (related to package management/ source) you still would have to get around the fact that each of them may use a different pkgsrc branch. Otherwise you wouldn't have the current differences in software compatibility where FreeBSD has what (28000 packages?) and NetBSD has (15000?) On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 1:54 AM, Martin martin.kelly4...@gmail.com wrote: I understand that, what your not getting is that i am talking about the release schedule of the individual BSD distros not the release schedule of pkgsrc. On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 7:02 PM, John Marino net...@marino.st wrote: On 12/4/2012 07:14, Aleksej Saushev wrote: Martinmartin.kelly4000@gmail.**com martin.kelly4...@gmail.com writes: I can see how you could misunderstand what i said. My point was about that each of the BSD's use pkgsrc in a different way and the releases from FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD or DflyBSD don't all rely on the exact same packages for every release (i.e. NetBSD 6 and FreeBSD 9 do not use the same version of GNOME-2 desktop; poor example), and that generally per BSD release they generally blob the binaries that are compatible for that release together. No, pkgsrc is one for everyone, unless someone maintains his own branch. As far as I know, only DragonFly and SmartOS do, though nothing serious stops them from using original distribution. Thus NetBSD 6 and FreeBSD 9 use the same version of GNOME, provided that they use supported pkgsrc branch. DragonFly has a git mirror mirror of the pkgsrc cvs repository, but its contents are identical to what is in cvs. I would not classify this as maintaining its own branch. We use the same distribution as NetBSD. Just clarifying this statement to avoid misinformation. ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Fwd: Unified BSD?
On 12/4/2012 16:07, Martin wrote: Sorry forget that last message. GNOME was a bad example, but you did in essence you clarify my point. That FreeBSD or whichever one you talk about may or may not be using a different pkgsrc branch. I didn't call any components standardized, i said even if you _*were*_ to standardize certain components for all BSDs (related to package management/ source) you still would have to get around the fact that each of them may use a different pkgsrc branch. Otherwise you wouldn't have the current differences in software compatibility where FreeBSD has what (28000 packages?) and NetBSD has (15000?) The package count of the two systems is basically affected by lifespan (ports existed first) and manpower, so don't read into this. Ports has about 24000 unique packages, pkgsrc has around 10,800 unique packages (about 2000 are duplicated with multiple python, ruby, php combinations). The user has the option to stay on the branch suggested at the time of the release, or can migrate as he/she wants. In the case of DragonFly, it was catching up with fixing broken packages for a long time, so migrating to newest quarterly is generally recommended. I would say pkgsrc serves to standardize the systems that use it. I could install pkgsrc on OpenIndiana as an example and use the same software on that platform. John ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Fwd: Unified BSD?
Don't get me wrong, i am not criticising pkgsrc or intentionally trying get people offside. So aside from the obvious differences and limitations (i.e. manpower, design of each BSD system) What is stopping per say DragonflyBSD or any other BSD from using packages from FreeBSD or vice versa through pkgsrc? Or is it simply that some choose not to provide back to pkgsrc? On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 2:15 AM, John Marino net...@marino.st wrote: On 12/4/2012 16:07, Martin wrote: Sorry forget that last message. GNOME was a bad example, but you did in essence you clarify my point. That FreeBSD or whichever one you talk about may or may not be using a different pkgsrc branch. I didn't call any components standardized, i said even if you _*were*_ to standardize certain components for all BSDs (related to package management/ source) you still would have to get around the fact that each of them may use a different pkgsrc branch. Otherwise you wouldn't have the current differences in software compatibility where FreeBSD has what (28000 packages?) and NetBSD has (15000?) The package count of the two systems is basically affected by lifespan (ports existed first) and manpower, so don't read into this. Ports has about 24000 unique packages, pkgsrc has around 10,800 unique packages (about 2000 are duplicated with multiple python, ruby, php combinations). The user has the option to stay on the branch suggested at the time of the release, or can migrate as he/she wants. In the case of DragonFly, it was catching up with fixing broken packages for a long time, so migrating to newest quarterly is generally recommended. I would say pkgsrc serves to standardize the systems that use it. I could install pkgsrc on OpenIndiana as an example and use the same software on that platform. John ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Fwd: Unified BSD?
On 12/4/2012 16:42, Martin wrote: Don't get me wrong, i am not criticising pkgsrc or intentionally trying get people offside. So aside from the obvious differences and limitations (i.e. manpower, design of each BSD system) What is stopping per say DragonflyBSD or any other BSD from using packages from FreeBSD or vice versa through pkgsrc? Or is it simply that some choose not to provide back to pkgsrc? Recent work by myself has proven that it is feasible for DragonFly to use FreeBSD ports collection with an specialized overlay. So there's nothing technically stopping that from happening. Pkgsrc has a goal to be universal, so theoretically all platforms will benefit from contributing because the committer is ideally conscious that multiple platforms use it while FreeBSD ports committers only concern themselves with making the port work on FreeBSD. While pkgsrc supports FreeBSD and OpenBSD, in practice it seems most users of those systems tend to stick with FreeBSD Ports Collection and OpenBSD package system. You can speculate why that is. It takes a ton of work to keep a platform current on pkgsrc (which is why I used the words theoretically and ideally) so somebody from those systems has to do that work, which means they have to consider that work worthwhile. I don't see activity to that effect. Pkgsrc would be happy to have parties from FreeBSD and OpenBSD improve the quality of the packages in the repository, I am quite sure of that. Somebody just needs to donate that energy. John ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Unified BSD?
On 11/13/12 2:45 AM, Ignatios Souvatzis wrote: On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 10:08:08AM +0100, Joost van de Griek wrote: On 12 Nov 2012, at 21:37 , Robin Björklin robin.bjork...@gmail.com wrote: Am I bat crap crazy for thinking it could be good to merge the four largest BSD variants out there, take the best bits and pieces out of each and create a Unified BSD? You'd end up creating a fifth. At least a sixth, IIRC. You left out MirBSD from your distribution list. Also, you could argue that Minix, with its NetBSD compatibility, is a seventh and MacOS-X, with its partially (Free-/Net-)BSD compatible userland, an eighth. And Free/Net derived kernel. (at least for unix services: vfs, inet, process) -is ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Unified BSD?
On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 9:34 AM, Hub- FreeBSD free...@hub.org wrote: Actually, according to what we are tracking at http://bsdstats.org, there are currently *8*: PC-BSD FreeBSD PYC-BSD (aka Rus-BSD) DesktopBSD OpenBSD NetBSD DragonflyBSD MidnightBSD Tracking something like DesktopBSD which doesn't exist for quite a long time make statistics not much useful. MidnightBSD seems to be same case as last activy on mailing list last year in May, forums doesn't working at all so we are still on 4 core BSDs (Open/Net/Free/Dfly). On 2012-11-16, at 12:30 AM, Alfred Perlstein bri...@mu.org wrote: On 11/13/12 2:45 AM, Ignatios Souvatzis wrote: On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 10:08:08AM +0100, Joost van de Griek wrote: On 12 Nov 2012, at 21:37 , Robin Björklin robin.bjork...@gmail.com wrote: Am I bat crap crazy for thinking it could be good to merge the four largest BSD variants out there, take the best bits and pieces out of each and create a Unified BSD? You'd end up creating a fifth. At least a sixth, IIRC. You left out MirBSD from your distribution list. Also, you could argue that Minix, with its NetBSD compatibility, is a seventh and MacOS-X, with its partially (Free-/Net-)BSD compatible userland, an eighth. And Free/Net derived kernel. (at least for unix services: vfs, inet, process) -is ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Unified BSD?
On 2012-11-16 12:48, Tomas Bodzar wrote: On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 9:34 AM, Hub- FreeBSD free...@hub.org wrote: Actually, according to what we are tracking at http://bsdstats.org, there are currently *8*: PC-BSD FreeBSD PYC-BSD (aka Rus-BSD) DesktopBSD OpenBSD NetBSD DragonflyBSD MidnightBSD Tracking something like DesktopBSD which doesn't exist for quite a long time make statistics not much useful. MidnightBSD seems to be same case as last activy on mailing list last year in May, forums doesn't working at all so we are still on 4 core BSDs (Open/Net/Free/Dfly). I find it rather meaningless as a tracking tool for BSD in general. There is no way something like 2BSD would ever appear there, no matter how many systems were installed. And I also do happen to consider OS-X to be a BSD system. :-) Johnny On 2012-11-16, at 12:30 AM, Alfred Perlstein bri...@mu.org wrote: On 11/13/12 2:45 AM, Ignatios Souvatzis wrote: On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 10:08:08AM +0100, Joost van de Griek wrote: On 12 Nov 2012, at 21:37 , Robin Björklin robin.bjork...@gmail.com wrote: Am I bat crap crazy for thinking it could be good to merge the four largest BSD variants out there, take the best bits and pieces out of each and create a Unified BSD? You'd end up creating a fifth. At least a sixth, IIRC. You left out MirBSD from your distribution list ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Unified BSD?
On 2012-11-16, at 5:52 AM, Johnny Billquist b...@update.uu.se wrote: On 2012-11-16 12:48, Tomas Bodzar wrote: On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 9:34 AM, Hub- FreeBSD free...@hub.org wrote: Actually, according to what we are tracking at http://bsdstats.org, there are currently *8*: PC-BSD FreeBSD PYC-BSD (aka Rus-BSD) DesktopBSD OpenBSD NetBSD DragonflyBSD MidnightBSD Tracking something like DesktopBSD which doesn't exist for quite a long time make statistics not much useful. MidnightBSD seems to be same case as last activy on mailing list last year in May, forums doesn't working at all so we are still on 4 core BSDs (Open/Net/Free/Dfly). I find it rather meaningless as a tracking tool for BSD in general. There is no way something like 2BSD would ever appear there, no matter how many systems were installed. And I also do happen to consider OS-X to be a BSD system. :-) I agree on that point, which is why I run it for my desktops … but until you mention it, I'd never thought of even trying to get the script to run … have to play with that this weekend and see how out of the box it works, if it does … ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Unified BSD?
On 2012-11-16, at 6:42 AM, Erich Dollansky erichfreebsdl...@alogreentechnologies.com wrote: Hi, On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 14:52:48 +0100 Johnny Billquist b...@update.uu.se wrote: On 2012-11-16 12:48, Tomas Bodzar wrote: On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 9:34 AM, Hub- FreeBSD free...@hub.org wrote: Actually, according to what we are tracking at http://bsdstats.org, there are currently *8*: PC-BSD FreeBSD PYC-BSD (aka Rus-BSD) DesktopBSD OpenBSD NetBSD DragonflyBSD MidnightBSD Tracking something like DesktopBSD which doesn't exist for quite a long time make statistics not much useful. MidnightBSD seems to be same case as last activy on mailing list last year in May, forums doesn't working at all so we are still on 4 core BSDs (Open/Net/Free/Dfly). I find it rather meaningless as a tracking tool for BSD in general. There is no way something like 2BSD would ever appear there, no matter how many systems were installed. the number of FreeBSD installations for Indonesia seem also very, very low. We would have 20% of the installation base then. Its a purely opt-in system, excepf for PC-BSD, which has theirs as an opt-out when you install the OS … that is why its numbers are so much higher then everyone else … ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Unified BSD?
On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 01:27:44PM +0100, Ignatios Souvatzis wrote: b) Besides - I question the notion of unchanging == dead. Amen! Sometimes, you just don't need to be twiddling in the code for your software to work. ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Unified BSD?
On Tue, Nov 13, 2012, at 14:18, Martin wrote: My point is about the possibility of creating a new BSD project (with separate developers) that aims for 100% compatibility with at least FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD and maybe DragonflyBSD. On Tue, Nov 13, 2012, at 22:43, matthew sporleder wrote: If you are interested in generating linux-like buzz advocate hardware manufacturers and industry types to fund (with money) development of drivers. Not a developer, but here's something I've been thinking about: Are there perhaps some *parts* of the major BSDs (kernel interfaces, file formats) that could benefit from being unified / standardized? Maybe at least a subset of syscalls and libraries that could be agreed on and declared stable forever so that simple binaries can run? That is something that's already being done for Linux compatibility - except for the bit about stability. But why should I have to keep Linux binaries around for handling weird archive formats? I think matthew is basically right; but if there was only one single target to develop for, with a big fat sign on it saying simply BSD, I'd bet that arguing for getting things written - graphics drivers or userland tools for managing ones RAID setup, or whatever would end up being feasible - would be easier. In my daydreams (slightly less unrealistic than the mail that started the discussion) I'm sending an email to a developer that says Hey, you can get four done in one shot, and it's also a standard. And did I mention that Apple and the Minix project have been using lots of code from the BSD projects? Want to bet they'll adopt this too?. Yeah, I need to get out more, but you get the point. Magnus ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Unified BSD?
On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 10:08:08AM +0100, Joost van de Griek wrote: On 12 Nov 2012, at 21:37 , Robin Björklin robin.bjork...@gmail.com wrote: Am I bat crap crazy for thinking it could be good to merge the four largest BSD variants out there, take the best bits and pieces out of each and create a Unified BSD? You'd end up creating a fifth. At least a sixth, IIRC. You left out MirBSD from your distribution list. Also, you could argue that Minix, with its NetBSD compatibility, is a seventh and MacOS-X, with its partially (Free-/Net-)BSD compatible userland, an eighth. -is ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Unified BSD?
I just can't resist the urge to point to this comic strip, which an other FreeBSD users posted regarding : hey let's create a FreeBSD desktop, like Ubuntu did with Unity http://xkcd.com/927/ -- -- Joar Jegleim Homepage: http://cosmicb.no Linkedin: http://no.linkedin.com/in/joarjegleim fb: http://www.facebook.com/joar.jegleim AKA: CosmicB @Freenode -- On 12 November 2012 21:37, Robin Björklin robin.bjork...@gmail.com wrote: Hi! First and foremost I'd like to present myself, I'm a young and naive junior sys admin that think people should be able to compromise and see the bigger picture and the good of the cause. Now over to the reason for my post. As all of you probably know there's a lot of buzz around Gnu/Linux these days and I'm pretty sure you couldn't care less. What I'm wondering is why the BSD community which from what I can gather isn't as big as the Linux community have decided to split their resources into several different projects/forks/distributions. To me it seems *BSD would be in a more competitive shape if all developers would get in under one roof? Am I bat crap crazy for thinking it could be good to merge the four largest BSD variants out there, take the best bits and pieces out of each and create a Unified BSD? Kind Regards, Robin Bjorklin ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Unified BSD?
On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 11:45:11AM +0100, Ignatios Souvatzis wrote: On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 10:08:08AM +0100, Joost van de Griek wrote: On 12 Nov 2012, at 21:37 , Robin Björklin robin.bjork...@gmail.com wrote: Am I bat crap crazy for thinking it could be good to merge the four largest BSD variants out there, take the best bits and pieces out of each and create a Unified BSD? You'd end up creating a fifth. At least a sixth, IIRC. You left out MirBSD from your distribution list. Also, you could argue that Minix, with its NetBSD compatibility, is a seventh and MacOS-X, with its partially (Free-/Net-)BSD compatible userland, an eighth. MirBSD / MirOS is dead: http://www.freshbsd.org/search?project=mirbsd Last commit: 2011-08-29 23:00:00 pgplE2yH2ohT0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Unified BSD?
On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 01:04:27PM +0100, Lars Engels wrote: MirBSD / MirOS is dead: http://www.freshbsd.org/search?project=mirbsd Last commit: 2011-08-29 23:00:00 I'm no Mir* co-worker, so take this with a grain of salt. But on general principles: a) I question the date itself - that's the last commit to whatever freshbsd.org watches, not necessarily the last thing the developers did. (In fact, I've heard from Thorsten at FrosCon that he does definitely not consider his project abandoned.) b) Besides - I question the notion of unchanging == dead. In fact, as somebody who *uses* software, and who administeres computers for others who want to *use* the software, I consider changing software - e.g. the fortnightly changes of Firefox-Current's user interface - a nuisance. (That's why Mozilla has their extended support release, currently 10.0.9.) People want to use software for some work, not spend half of their time rewriting configuration files or relearn key bidings or menu entry positions. (Now, nobody being there who looks at bug reports etc... thats something different. But you only see changes through this activity if there really *are* bugs.) -is ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Unified BSD?
mksh is certainly not, and I use it daily on FreeBSD and really like it. The same I could say about openntpd from OpenBSD. Isn't it like it should be then? -- View this message in context: http://freebsd.1045724.n5.nabble.com/Unified-BSD-tp5760356p5760566.html Sent from the freebsd-chat mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Unified BSD?
On 2012-11-13 11:45, Ignatios Souvatzis wrote: On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 10:08:08AM +0100, Joost van de Griek wrote: On 12 Nov 2012, at 21:37 , Robin Björklin robin.bjork...@gmail.com wrote: Am I bat crap crazy for thinking it could be good to merge the four largest BSD variants out there, take the best bits and pieces out of each and create a Unified BSD? You'd end up creating a fifth. At least a sixth, IIRC. You left out MirBSD from your distribution list. Also, you could argue that Minix, with its NetBSD compatibility, is a seventh and MacOS-X, with its partially (Free-/Net-)BSD compatible userland, an eighth. And what about 2BSD, BSD 3 and BSD 4 with all their releases? (And I assume that there was probably something that in retrospect would have been called 1BSD as well...) Johnny ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Unified BSD?
No offense Ignatios Souvatzis but your reference to Minix being a 7th BSD distro is like saying FreeBSD (or any of the other major BSDs) is another Linux because of its inter-compatibility for certain user-land components and various shared code. Minix has a minimal amount of NetBSD code and most of it being userland tools and package management. The actual core of Minix is totally different to NetBSD; MINIX is a microkernel and NetBSD is a monolithic kernel being a major difference. Mac OS X i can understand but again the core of OSX is based of Mach 3, FreeBSD and OPENSTEP, with a lot of modified code (more like BSD's 2nd or 3rd cousin). Although with that i suppose it depends on how you are defining what classifies as a BSD distribution. If your going of whether they have used any source from BSD then your going to be hard-pressed to classify one that isn't BSD. However, i was assuming you were going of the core of the system (i.e. how much source if any is used in kernel space). Which brings be back to what i was talking about in an earlier post. If you want to make a unified BSD, it would be easier to create a new BSD which at the core (i.e. memory management, IPC, I/O, etc...) is based of per-say NetBSD, i only chose NetBSD because it has what i believe is cleaner code than the others, and is structured in a way that would make it easier to modify and move components. Sure it wouldn't be true to the roots of an actual unified BSD that is based of 4.4BSD lite and has a mesh core of OpenBSD, FreeBSD NetBSD, but my point isn't about 4.4BSD lite or creating a true unified BSD down to the core (where all BSD developers work on one project). My point is about the possibility of creating a new BSD project (with separate developers) that aims for 100% compatibility with at least FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD and maybe DragonflyBSD. Your suggestion i would think is possible, but only by being realistic about it. Using an already stable kernel and then modifying it where necessary to make it compatible. lol, that's just my 2-cents about it. Hell the idea is more possible with the BSDs than it is with Linux. I wouldn't even consider trying to create a unified Linux. Linux is such a jumbled mess, that i wouldn't want to go anywhere near a project trying to un-jumble it with a 10ft pole, as it would take about as long to un-jumble it as it would to finish the same idea on BSD. I like Linux but if your talking about a project/s being unified, BSD is leaps and bounds ahead of Linux. So while Linux is doing better in terms of popularity, BSD has a far greater potential for more than Linux, just because each project has made such a strong base foundation and is so well organized. :D On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 9:45 PM, Ignatios Souvatzis ignat...@cs.uni-bonn.de wrote: On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 10:08:08AM +0100, Joost van de Griek wrote: On 12 Nov 2012, at 21:37 , Robin Björklin robin.bjork...@gmail.com wrote: Am I bat crap crazy for thinking it could be good to merge the four largest BSD variants out there, take the best bits and pieces out of each and create a Unified BSD? You'd end up creating a fifth. At least a sixth, IIRC. You left out MirBSD from your distribution list. Also, you could argue that Minix, with its NetBSD compatibility, is a seventh and MacOS-X, with its partially (Free-/Net-)BSD compatible userland, an eighth. -is ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Unified BSD?
On 13 November 2012 07:04, Lars Engels lars.eng...@0x20.net wrote: On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 11:45:11AM +0100, Ignatios Souvatzis wrote: On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 10:08:08AM +0100, Joost van de Griek wrote: On 12 Nov 2012, at 21:37 , Robin Björklin robin.bjork...@gmail.com wrote: Am I bat crap crazy for thinking it could be good to merge the four largest BSD variants out there, take the best bits and pieces out of each and create a Unified BSD? You'd end up creating a fifth. At least a sixth, IIRC. You left out MirBSD from your distribution list. Also, you could argue that Minix, with its NetBSD compatibility, is a seventh and MacOS-X, with its partially (Free-/Net-)BSD compatible userland, an eighth. MirBSD / MirOS is dead: http://www.freshbsd.org/search?project=mirbsd Last commit: 2011-08-29 23:00:00 Latest looks like 20120911 via http://www.mirbsd.org/MirOS/current/ Also, mksh (I use this on gentoo) jupp (a fork of joe: I still use the ol jstar for word processing) are both regularly worked upon. In any case (getting back to the Original Troll), the various BSD projects regularly borrow code from each other, so I hardly see the point. -- -- ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Unified BSD?
On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 2:45 AM, Ignatios Souvatzis ignat...@cs.uni-bonn.de wrote: At least a sixth, IIRC. You left out MirBSD from your distribution list. Also, you could argue that Minix, with its NetBSD compatibility, is a seventh and MacOS-X, with its partially (Free-/Net-)BSD compatible userland, an eighth. OS X has benefitted greatly from FreeBSD, Apple hiring former FreeBSD core team members. And indirectly from OpenBSD as well, with modern versions of OS X, 10.7+, have pf. Cross pollination is a huge benefit to the BSD community. ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Unified BSD?
Hi, Reference: From: Johnny Billquist b...@update.uu.se Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 13:34:56 +0100 Message-id: 50a23e70.8010...@update.uu.se Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2012-11-13 11:45, Ignatios Souvatzis wrote: On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 10:08:08AM +0100, Joost van de Griek wrote: On 12 Nov 2012, at 21:37 , Robin Björklin robin.bjork...@gmail.com wrote: Am I bat crap crazy for thinking it could be good to merge the four largest BSD variants out there, take the best bits and pieces out of each and create a Unified BSD? You'd end up creating a fifth. At least a sixth, IIRC. You left out MirBSD from your distribution list. Also, you could argue that Minix, with its NetBSD compatibility, is a seventh and MacOS-X, with its partially (Free-/Net-)BSD compatible userland, an eighth. And what about 2BSD, BSD 3 and BSD 4 with all their releases? (And I assume that there was probably something that in retrospect would have been called 1BSD as well...) Johnny No they were sequential from same team, not later parallel forks. Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultant, Munich http://berklix.com Reply below not above, like a play script. Indent old text with . Send plain text. Not: HTML, multipart/alternative, base64, quoted-printable. ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Unified BSD?
On Tue, 13 Nov 2012, Julian H. Stacey wrote: Johnny Billquist wrote: And what about 2BSD, BSD 3 and BSD 4 with all their releases? (And I assume that there was probably something that in retrospect would have been called 1BSD as well...) No they were sequential from same team, not later parallel forks. 1BSD is not an operating system. 2BSD wasn't an operating system until 2.8BSD which was after 3BSD. I'd suggest that 2.x and 4.x are different forks; they had some different developers, lots of different code, but also lots of shared code. echo uggc://errqzrqvn.arg/obbxf/ofq-uvfgbel/ | \ tr noqruvxzabcefgl abdehikmnoprsty ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Unified BSD?
On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 3:37 PM, Robin Björklin robin.bjork...@gmail.com wrote: Hi! First and foremost I'd like to present myself, I'm a young and naive junior sys admin that think people should be able to compromise and see the bigger picture and the good of the cause. Now over to the reason for my post. As all of you probably know there's a lot of buzz around Gnu/Linux these days and I'm pretty sure you couldn't care less. What I'm wondering is why the BSD community which from what I can gather isn't as big as the Linux community have decided to split their resources into several different projects/forks/distributions. To me it seems *BSD would be in a more competitive shape if all developers would get in under one roof? Am I bat crap crazy for thinking it could be good to merge the four largest BSD variants out there, take the best bits and pieces out of each and create a Unified BSD? Kind Regards, Robin Bjorklin Model yourself after Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino who was involved in Net, Open, and Free BSD. If you are interested in generating linux-like buzz advocate hardware manufacturers and industry types to fund (with money) development of drivers. Matt ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Unified BSD?
On 2012-11-13 18:51, Julian H. Stacey wrote: Hi, Reference: From: Johnny Billquist b...@update.uu.se Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 13:34:56 +0100 Message-id: 50a23e70.8010...@update.uu.se Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2012-11-13 11:45, Ignatios Souvatzis wrote: On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 10:08:08AM +0100, Joost van de Griek wrote: On 12 Nov 2012, at 21:37 , Robin Björklin robin.bjork...@gmail.com wrote: Am I bat crap crazy for thinking it could be good to merge the four largest BSD variants out there, take the best bits and pieces out of each and create a Unified BSD? You'd end up creating a fifth. At least a sixth, IIRC. You left out MirBSD from your distribution list. Also, you could argue that Minix, with its NetBSD compatibility, is a seventh and MacOS-X, with its partially (Free-/Net-)BSD compatible userland, an eighth. And what about 2BSD, BSD 3 and BSD 4 with all their releases? (And I assume that there was probably something that in retrospect would have been called 1BSD as well...) Johnny No they were sequential from same team, not later parallel forks. Not so fast... 2BSD and BSD 4 are definitely parallel, almost to this day, I'd say... Well, BSD 4 has been sortof dead for a number of years now, but 2BSD is not entirely so dead yet. And things were back- and forwardported between the two for a while. Johnny ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Unified BSD?
Hi! First and foremost I'd like to present myself, I'm a young and naive junior sys admin that think people should be able to compromise and see the bigger picture and the good of the cause. Now over to the reason for my post. As all of you probably know there's a lot of buzz around Gnu/Linux these days and I'm pretty sure you couldn't care less. What I'm wondering is why the BSD community which from what I can gather isn't as big as the Linux community have decided to split their resources into several different projects/forks/distributions. To me it seems *BSD would be in a more competitive shape if all developers would get in under one roof? Am I bat crap crazy for thinking it could be good to merge the four largest BSD variants out there, take the best bits and pieces out of each and create a Unified BSD? Kind Regards, Robin Bjorklin ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
RE: Unified BSD?
Yes, your bat crap crazy :-) All of these variants inherit from the same unified BSD 4.4 base code as far as I know. So years ago there were reasons that groups wanted to spilt off and focus on specific goals. Some of these goals are mutually exclusive. These BSD variants are not really competing with each other or Linux for that matter. Justin Mayes -Original Message- From: owner-m...@openbsd.org [mailto:owner-m...@openbsd.org] On Behalf Of Robin Björklin Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 2:38 PM To: us...@dragonflybsd.org; netbsd-us...@netbsd.org; freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; m...@openbsd.org Subject: Unified BSD? Hi! First and foremost I'd like to present myself, I'm a young and naive junior sys admin that think people should be able to compromise and see the bigger picture and the good of the cause. Now over to the reason for my post. As all of you probably know there's a lot of buzz around Gnu/Linux these days and I'm pretty sure you couldn't care less. What I'm wondering is why the BSD community which from what I can gather isn't as big as the Linux community have decided to split their resources into several different projects/forks/distributions. To me it seems *BSD would be in a more competitive shape if all developers would get in under one roof? Am I bat crap crazy for thinking it could be good to merge the four largest BSD variants out there, take the best bits and pieces out of each and create a Unified BSD? Kind Regards, Robin Bjorklin
RE: Unified BSD?
+1 Also, all projects being _open_ it's not like there isn't any useful cross-talk in sources, there is. And all projects can focus on their precise goals. Win-win. Of course, if some sub-goals are common, collaboration is encouraged (e.g. editor suite, chromium, I believe some wifi drivers... etc). -- View this message in context: http://freebsd.1045724.n5.nabble.com/Unified-BSD-tp5760356p5760380.html Sent from the freebsd-chat mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Unified BSD?
On 12 November 2012 22:37, Robin Björklin robin.bjork...@gmail.com wrote: As all of you probably know there's a lot of buzz around Gnu/Linux these days and I'm pretty sure you couldn't care less. What I'm wondering is why the BSD community which from what I can gather isn't as big as the Linux community have decided to split their resources into several different projects/forks/distributions. To me it seems *BSD would be in a more competitive shape if all developers would get in under one roof? Different BSDs have different interests. Also, competitive shape is ambiguous (competitive in speed?, portability?, security?, market share?). Am I bat crap crazy for thinking it could be good to merge the four largest BSD variants out there, take the best bits and pieces out of each and create a Unified BSD? Doesn't that apply for Linux too? ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Unified BSD?
On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 12:37 PM, Robin Björklin robin.bjork...@gmail.com wrote: Am I bat crap crazy for thinking it could be good to merge the four largest BSD variants out there, take the best bits and pieces out of each and create a Unified BSD? you are not crazy for thinking this, and fortunately there is nothing prohibiting you from doing so (or a collective group of people, or company etc...). One thing you will see in the BSD Unix systems is there is quite a bit of cross pollination between projects. The largest example current example of this from my perspective is support for OpenBSD's pf packet filter in FreeBSD. This is a packet filter built to suit the OpenBSD developers goals, but it did not restrict FreeBSD from supporting this packet filter and hopefully both projects benefit from this collaboration (wider code exposure of the pf code, and wider choice of packet filters for FreeBSD users). My opinion is that with the current state of the BSD's this is one of its stronger suits - we have multiple projects right now building entire operating systems to suit each of the projects stated goals and developer wishes. this would be opposed to gnu/linux where you are cobbling together many disparate sources to build your distribution (some of which will have goals that may not line up with your goals). with this diversity we still cross pollinate ideas and methods, but are still allowed to spend our limited resources focusing on our projects core goals. -pete -- pete wright www.nycbug.org @nomadlogicLA ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Unified BSD?
This is the funniest thing I've seen all day. :) On Mon, Nov 12, 2012, at 03:37 PM, Robin Björklin wrote: Hi! First and foremost I'd like to present myself, I'm a young and naive junior sys admin that think people should be able to compromise and see the bigger picture and the good of the cause. Now over to the reason for my post. As all of you probably know there's a lot of buzz around Gnu/Linux these days and I'm pretty sure you couldn't care less. What I'm wondering is why the BSD community which from what I can gather isn't as big as the Linux community have decided to split their resources into several different projects/forks/distributions. To me it seems *BSD would be in a more competitive shape if all developers would get in under one roof? Am I bat crap crazy for thinking it could be good to merge the four largest BSD variants out there, take the best bits and pieces out of each and create a Unified BSD? Kind Regards, Robin Bjorklin ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Unified BSD?
You seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that the Linux world is unified. It isn't. The big difference between Linux and the BSDs is that it alienates itself from the BSDs and many other projects by using a viral, business-hostile license. The BSDs can draw on one another's work because there are no licensing barriers between them. --Brett Glass ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Unified BSD?
On Monday, 12 November 2012 at 21:37:41 +0100, Robin Björklin wrote: First and foremost I'd like to present myself, I'm a young and naive junior sys admin that think people should be able to compromise and see the bigger picture and the good of the cause. It shows :-) As all of you probably know there's a lot of buzz around Gnu/Linux these days and I'm pretty sure you couldn't care less. What I'm wondering is why the BSD community which from what I can gather isn't as big as the Linux community have decided to split their resources into several different projects/forks/distributions. To me it seems *BSD would be in a more competitive shape if all developers would get in under one roof? There's 20 years of history to explain that. Where should I begin? Should I begin? - The initial split was between Bill Jolitz and the rest of the world. This was partially personality driven, partially goal driven. Bill soon faded out, leaving just the NetBSD project. - Next came the split between NetBSD and FreeBSD. That was mainly goal driven, but there was also a fair amount of personality involved. - Then came the Unix wars, where ATT sued BSDI (a commercial variant that no longer exists) over perceived copyright infringement. The free BSDs weren't really directly involved, but the suit would have been just as relevant, and people were worried. This was the time that Linux was in the ascendancy. Users had the choice of a free GPL system or one which might land them in trouble. Most chose the safe option. - Then OpenBSD split from NetBSD. Mainly personality driven AFAICT. This doesn't imply any criticism of the founder of the new project. Round about this time I wrote a paper on the subject, which I presented in various conferences. You can find numerous versions at http://www.lemis.com/grog/Papers/, including Why BSD is better than Linux, presented at the Linux.conf.au in Brisbane. - Then DragonflyBSD split from FreeBSD. Mainly personality driven AFAICT. Again, this doesn't imply any criticism of the founder of the new project. And that's where we are. We have 4 different BSD kernels which regularly borrow from each other. Some projects, such as PCBSD, take these kernels and package them differently. Looking across the fence, I see that there is no distribution of Linux with a completely standard kernel (I think), and lots of different distributions with significantly different interfaces. On the whole, I'd say that BSD is more uniform than Linux. Am I bat crap crazy for thinking it could be good to merge the four largest BSD variants out there, take the best bits and pieces out of each and create a Unified BSD? Maybe not, but there are many reasons it won't happen. One is the structure of the individual projects, and another is that the current system works well. If you only have one kernel, you don't have people implementing different solutions for a problem, so you don't find out which is better. Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger g...@freebsd.org for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft MUA reports problems, please read http://tinyurl.com/broken-mua pgpI4OJYRe4tO.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Unified BSD?
On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 5:14 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey g...@freebsd.org wrote: - Then DragonflyBSD split from FreeBSD. Mainly personality driven AFAICT. Again, this doesn't imply any criticism of the founder of the new project. There were some very valid technical reasons at the time as well, IMHO. ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Unified BSD?
The reason was actually intellectual property based between ATT and the proprietary BSD/386 if your talking BSD4.4. That was the core reason for why FreeBSD and NetBSD started. So really it isn't that crazy, more highly unlikely that your going to get the core developers of each project to abandon years of work to start again on a unified BSD. It is a cool thought, one i have thought about. Which is why i reckon your far more likely to get support for a new BSD system that takes the foundation of one of the existing BSD's and create a project that aims for compatibility between the major BSD players. At least then its not like restarting. On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 8:36 AM, Justin Mayes jma...@careered.com wrote: Yes, your bat crap crazy :-) All of these variants inherit from the same unified BSD 4.4 base code as far as I know. So years ago there were reasons that groups wanted to spilt off and focus on specific goals. Some of these goals are mutually exclusive. These BSD variants are not really competing with each other or Linux for that matter. Justin Mayes -Original Message- From: owner-m...@openbsd.org [mailto:owner-m...@openbsd.org] On Behalf Of Robin Björklin Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 2:38 PM To: us...@dragonflybsd.org; netbsd-us...@netbsd.org; freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; m...@openbsd.org Subject: Unified BSD? Hi! First and foremost I'd like to present myself, I'm a young and naive junior sys admin that think people should be able to compromise and see the bigger picture and the good of the cause. Now over to the reason for my post. As all of you probably know there's a lot of buzz around Gnu/Linux these days and I'm pretty sure you couldn't care less. What I'm wondering is why the BSD community which from what I can gather isn't as big as the Linux community have decided to split their resources into several different projects/forks/distributions. To me it seems *BSD would be in a more competitive shape if all developers would get in under one roof? Am I bat crap crazy for thinking it could be good to merge the four largest BSD variants out there, take the best bits and pieces out of each and create a Unified BSD? Kind Regards, Robin Bjorklin ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Unified BSD?
- Then came the Unix wars, where ATT sued BSDI (a commercial variant that no longer exists) over perceived copyright infringement. The free BSDs weren't really directly involved, but the suit would have been just as relevant, and people were worried. This was the time that Linux was in the ascendancy. Users had the choice of a free GPL system or one which might land them in trouble. Most chose the safe option. I know the view from Germany as to why Linux was taken up so readily, most people read about it later, repeat relayed wisdom, but I was here know: ( BTW though I'm British but in Germany, Germany is far more signifcant in this regard than eg UK of GB, eg Linux mag. has 3 times the circulation in Germany as UK, whenever I'm in UK I never see Linux mags in book shops etc ( of course no BSD) just MS, whereas here in Munich there's some choice of Linux mags, even in food supermarket (Tengelmann) I recall. Most newbies were clueless or didnt give a toss about FSF v BSD licensing then (or now), or some firm called ATT across the pond breathing hot air. (Only us BSD people cared, not many of us). Old Unix hands like me were earning good money fully employed doing consultancy, (plenty of work then). Although I thought I maybe should help spread BSD, considered knocking out batches of 30/40+ floppies per mail order, it was Very unattractive, labour intensive formatting, dd'ing, checking for media errors, at a very low pay rate compare with mich higher paid more interesting consultancy. Plus also if one did that under German tax law (I checked with my Steuer Berater = accountant I recall) it would be subject to Gewerbe Steuer, not just for the trivial amount earned on floppies shipped, but could imperil imposing the extra tax on the Whole of consultancy income, Very Expensive mistake to risk that. So I didn't others didnt; most other consultant friends here were also happy earning at commercial rates, didn't want to touch floppy reproduction. BUT ... meanwhile there was a whole new load of students on low or no income, no tax issues to worry about, young student mode enthusiasm time to evangalise their new free software ... Linux ... so one saw adverts for stack of floppies in eg CT Magazine (http://www.heise.de/ct/ others. then CDs came on the scene, even easier for the students to push out again I wondered whether I should push out some BSD CDs, again colleagues were too busy to reduce their consultancy income by doing grunt disk jockey work producing mailing CDROMs at cheap prices. Again I was scared of German Gewerbe Steuer ... So I decided to just do software bundling (safe consultancy work) let a commercial firm do manufacture, bulk distrib, German language correspondence, German gewerbe Steuer issues etc - Ughh) So I mastered a combination Live + Install FreeBSD CDROM years before freebsd.org did theirs, approached german Linux Mag Heise (I think) (English language, German based) BSD Mag (whatever, the one from Rosa Riebl) to see if anyone would bundle it stuck to front page of magazines (to really shift a lot have BSD make a big impact in the OS scene. I didnt get anywhere with that, but I got further with Dr Dobbs USA mag, negotiations were going OK, then they decided it would be too expensive to glue a CD on each cover, they just wanted to feature my CD in their library of CDs for sale ... at which point I lost interest cos: - It would fail to impact the market if not sent in bulk 1 per mag. (I'd have accepted very low payment for that, as it would have helped push BSD significantly) - If not on Mag. cover just in library for sale per individual order, I was scared of low sales, not worth the bother to polish the master maintain it maybe through new releases for low income. Actually, I still see a market opportunity for someone: For BSD (or Linux) shipped on memory sticks. But I wont touch that, especially not in Germany with this tax system, having to deal with thousands of customers at low profit per unit, plus a lot of german correspondence (German grammar not nice IMO) ... but its still a market BSD or Linux students could exploit (if not already ... I havent read CT mag ads. lately to know if it's being done). Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultant, Munich http://berklix.com Reply below not above, like a play script. Indent old text with . Send plain text. Not: HTML, multipart/alternative, base64, quoted-printable. ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-chat-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
