Re: Deprecating ISA sound cards

[Mark Linimon]

Anyone objecting to this, be careful, I might ship a pile of such
things to you from the depths of the closets :-)

mcl

Re: 13 stable build fail

[Mark Linimon]

Is this the same as:

  https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=256947

?

mcl

Re: Files in /etc containing empty VCSId header

[Mark Linimon]

On Mon, Jun 07, 2021 at 01:58:01PM -0600, Ian Lepore wrote:
> Sometimes it's a real interesting exercise to figure out where a
> file on your runtime system comes from in the source world.

A tangential problem I trip over is "what is on this SD card?"

It generally takes me 5-10 minutes to remember:

  strings //boot/kernel/kernel | tail

AFIAK it's the only way to be sure; nothing in //* seems
to have that data.

(Yes, in theory they all live in their own little box each of
which is labeled but things happen ...)

mcl

Re: Help wanted: volunteer yourselves in .github/CODEOWNERS

[Mark Linimon]

On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 05:25:03AM +, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> They are enthusiastic FreeBSD users and potential future committers,
> and should be treated as such!

The same goes for non-committers and phabricator, IMHO.

mcl

Re: i915kms and chip resets on rsc0?

[Mark Linimon]

On Thu, Jan 28, 2021 at 02:20:40PM -0800, Steve Kargl wrote:
> This is all likely academic as I just saw John Baldwin's email
> that stated i386 support is being dropped in FreeBSD-current.

s/dropped/downgraded/

The only difference seems to be that security upgrades that _only_
affect i386 will no longer be prioritized.

This will put it mostly on a par with arm64, armv7, and powerpc64.
That's all it means.

mcl
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Re: pkg for 14-current

[Mark Linimon]

On Sun, Jan 24, 2021 at 07:45:08PM +0900, Yasuhiro Kimura wrote:
> By the way, when -CURRENT was bumped from 12 to 13, there were some
> ports that failed to be built on 13-CURRENT simply because they don't
> expect there is version 13.x of FreeBSD. And probably such ports fails
> to be built on 14-CURRENT with same reason. So it may takes for a
> while until offical packages for 14-CURRENT are provided with same
> level as 13-CURRENT.

Do you remember which they were, please?

mcl
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Re: CURRENT, usr/src on git, howto "mergemaster"?

[Mark Linimon]

On Wed, Jan 06, 2021 at 11:24:22AM +, tech-lists wrote:
> >Moreover mergemaster is still officially documented and recommend as
> >only right method in FreeBSD handbook. See
> >https://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/makeworld.html.
> >World is moving, we may have new tools but each deprecation should be,
> >in this order:
> >1) well announced
> >2) adjusted in the handbook
> >3) implemeted
> 
> Really +1 to this, times a thousand. Especially the 2nd point which
> I think I'd be right in thinking is the source of truth? It also talks
> extensively about svn and yet 12-stable has been on git for a month
> nearly, and the svn repo has not been updated since.

It's _a_ source of truth but it, like everything else, is maintained by
volunteers.

The only _real_ source of truth is the commits.

mcl
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Re: HEADS UP: FreeBSD src repo transitioning to git this weekend

[Mark Linimon]

Folks, please change the Subject: line here.  This has now become a
thread of only tangiental interest to a typical FreeBSD developer
(in this case, typified by me :-) )

mcl
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Re: git tools for building in base?

[Mark Linimon]

On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 09:59:15PM -0700, Warner Losh wrote:
> We hope to have it finished in time for 13.0.

I also feel that it should be more a "requirement".

I don't see the rush in getting 13.0 out the door.  There is a lot to
get working (especially in ports-land).

mcl
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Re: Is pkg site forbidden by brower?

[Mark Linimon]

On Sun, Sep 06, 2020 at 03:05:49PM -0400, Yoshihiro Ota wrote:
> Do you own pkg sites?

Only portmgr@ does that.  So this matter can only be resolved by a
discussion between portmgr@ and clusteradm@.

mcl
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Re: Plans for git (was: Please check the current beta git conversions)

[Mark Linimon]

On Thu, Sep 03, 2020 at 11:40:17AM -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote:
> To the contrary 5 years ago the project on @developers basically 
> ran off one of the committers over the very idea of using git
> for the project.  It was shortly after I returned, so I find it
> very ironic that now its all "git git git and we being heading
> to this for 5 years"

Five years ago "all of my friends say that" was given as a fact, when
it was actually an anecdote.  That was why people (including myself)
were opposed to it.

Last year FreeBSD took a user survey.  That contained data.  And AFAIK
that was the basis of the decision.

Plus, the industry had changed in the ensuing 4 years.

mcl
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Re: Plans for git (was: Please check the current beta git conversions)

[Mark Linimon]

On Wed, Sep 02, 2020 at 08:01:17AM +0200, Kurt Jaeger wrote:
> A short intro on git for svn users:
> https://hackmd.io/ML5TSl8mQ5-27B5eqDf7YA?view

For people like me that will not click on random URLs ...

... just feed "svn to git cheat-sheet" to your favorite search engine.

Disclaimer: my initial experience with the Github UI has been a disaster.

mcl
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Re: Please check the current beta git conversions

[Mark Linimon]

On Wed, Sep 02, 2020 at 08:30:28AM +, Thomas Mueller wrote:
> NetBSD plans to switch from cvs to Mercurial.

So ... from square wheels, to triangular ones???

mcl
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Re: the state of amd64 ports on -CURRENT as of 20200827

[Mark Linimon]

I forgot to include the following statistic:

  repojail% grep duplicate_symbol regresslogs.out.wanted | wc -l
 613

mcl
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the state of amd64 ports on -CURRENT as of 20200827

[Mark Linimon]

The latest build of amd64-CURRENT ports has just completed:

  
http://beefy18.nyi.freebsd.org/build.html?mastername=head-amd64-default=p546132_s364744

The number of build failures is now 740.  This is an slight drop from
the initial post-clang11 commit of 830.  This is due to diligent work
by a more than a dozen ports committers.  I appreciate their efforts.

For comparison, the last build of amd64-CURRENT before the clang11
import was:

  
http://beefy18.nyi.freebsd.org/build.html?mastername=head-amd64-default=p544905_s364239

in which there were 66 build failures.

I have added two new analyses to the script that generated the Reason
column in poudriere (technically: processonelog.sh): "duplicate_symbol"
and "clang11".  This new change is not yet deployed on the ports build
cluster.  (I am currently working to make that happen.)

For any ports committer interested in working on fixing these regressions,
the following files may give some hints.

  The "corrected" analyses for the current build failures:

https://people.freebsd.org/~linimon/tmp/regresslogs.out.wanted

  and the changes this represents from the Reason column on beefy18:

https://people.freebsd.org/~linimon/tmp/diff.out

mcl
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Re: Current panics on connecting disks to a LSI-3108 controller

[Mark Linimon]

On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 11:56:43AM +0200, Willem Jan Withagen wrote:
> A bit of a pain, since pkg does not do it

because ...

> you need to manually fetch the tar from Broadcom first.

Finally:

> [pkg] also does not tell you why

Just ask it:

  portsjail% cd sysutils/storcli
  portsjail% make -V IGNORE
  You must manually fetch the distribution file 
(007.1211.._Unified_StorCLI.zip) from 
https://docs.broadcom.com/docs-and-downloads/raid-controllers/raid-controllers-common-files/007.1211.._Unified_StorCLI.zip,
 place it in /home/linimon/ports/default/distfiles and then run make again
  portsjail% make -V LICENSE
  storcli
  portsjail% make -V LICENSE_TEXT
  Source recipient must acknowledge license. Reproduction or redistribution 
prohibited. See 
https://www.broadcom.com/cs/Satellite?pagename=AVG2/Utilities/EulaMsg

mcl
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Re: lock order reversal and poudriere

[Mark Linimon]

On Sun, May 03, 2020 at 10:04:04AM -0600, Ian Lepore wrote:
> That LOR site hasn't been updated in years.  Many many years.

If someone wants to help me set up a page on the wiki, let me know.
(I have too much on my plate to do it myself.)

mcl
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Re: After update to r357104 build of poudriere jail fails with 'out of swap space'

[Mark Linimon]

On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 03:59:06PM -0800, Cy Schubert wrote:
> A rule of thumb would probably be, have ~ 2 GB RAM for every core or
> thread when doing large parallel builds.

This is a rule of thumb that I have used for quite some time.

Perhaps less is necessary for certain tasks, but if you want to build
compilers or other heavy packages, this seems to work.

mcl
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Re: AMD Secure Encrypted Virtualization - FreeBSD Status?

[Mark Linimon]

On Sat, Oct 05, 2019 at 01:09:50PM +0300, Greg V wrote:
> please keep in mind that the wiki is, as usual, very outdated.

I'd be happy to give assistance/advice to get the page updated.

mcl
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Re: sys/modules/sdio broken in .svn_revision 348842 'opt_cam.h' not found

[Mark Linimon]

On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 11:41:03AM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> svn_revision 348842
[ ...]
> /usr/src/sys/modules/sdio/../../dev/sdio/sdiob.c:68:10: fatal error: 
>   'opt_cam.h' file not found
> #include "opt_cam.h"
>  ^~~
> 1 error generated.

This is extremely unlikely to be r348842.  I would investigate r349025
instead.  (Committer Cc:ed.)

mcl
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Re: What is evdev and autoloading?

[Mark Linimon]

On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 06:25:32AM -0800, Rodney W. Grimes wrote:
> We are certainly driving users away by our operation model

If you want to help take up more support duties -- especially for aging
hardware -- I doubt anyone would stop you.  There is plenty of work to
take up; just check Bugzilla.

> This is not some leap forward for anyone

Nonsense.

> and definitely a slight step backwards for some, many, who knows,
> I put it in the 1000s of users.

Utter nonsense.  Right now we see the the following case: "latest
graphics fail to work on i386 laptops".  I fail to believe that is
more than a handful of users.

mcl
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Re: What is evdev and autoloading?

[Mark Linimon]

On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 08:50:27AM -0800, Rodney W. Grimes wrote:
> I think one serious problem here is the summary dismissal of things
> simply on the "5 year old" basis.

IIUC the graphics changes are being forced upon FreeBSD by external
projects (mainly Linux-based) that are making huge architectural changes
that rely more and more on features from newer hardware.

If our upstreams aren't willing to do the work to keep from violating
POLA on older hardware, IMHO it's an awful lot to ask of our already
thinly stretched graphics volunteers to provide it in their stead.

w/rt graphics, we are at far more danger of being left further and
further behind on modern hardware than we are at risk of losing users
on older hardware here.

Again all IMHO.

disclaimer: I don't use any fancy graphics stuff, so (as the old folks
say around here) "I have no dog in this hunt".

mcl
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Re: r343843 /usr/ports/ make install error: unable to create target: 'No available targets are compatible with this triple.'

[Mark Linimon]

On Fri, Feb 08, 2019 at 12:18:33PM +, Graham Perrin wrote:
> I still wonder whether these problems arose, somehow, from:
> 
> 235215 – Bump LLVM_DEFAULT to 80
> 

AFAIK that's still being tested (not committed yet).

mcl
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Re: drm / drm2 removal in 12

[Mark Linimon]

On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 07:22:06PM -0700, Randy Bush wrote:
> plonk

Indeed.  I encourage everyone else to do the same.

I'm far too old for proof-by-repetition.

mcl
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Re: drm / drm2 removal in 12

[Mark Linimon]

On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 07:07:24AM +0800, blubee blubeeme wrote:
> Are these guys insane and please avoid the nonsense about you're doing this
> in your spare time.

Let us know how whatever OS you wind up using instead works for you.
I suggest you look for one that will put up with your constant harangues.

There are very few people on the mailing lists as nasty and rude as
yourself.  It is tiresome, demotivating, and childish.  Please go elsewhere.

mcl
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Re: how to make ports not install xorg or dependencies

[Mark Linimon]

On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 01:13:31PM +0200, Miroslav Lachman wrote:
> As Guido Falsi already said it is not guaranteed that you will not
> have ports with some X libs, because some ports does not have option
> to disable X11 dependencies.

IMHO those ports have bugs.

mcl
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Re: [PATCH] Recent libm additions

[Mark Linimon]

On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 01:09:41PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> I'm not saying that he has a lock. I'm saying he's are domain expert
> and many mistakes can be avoided by talking to him.

fwiw, substantially all the work done since at least 2013 is from kargl.
(I am eliding the licensing, Makefile, and typo commits.)

  https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base/head/lib/msun/src/?sortby=date#dirlist

mcl
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Re: swapping is completely broken in -CURRENT r334649?

[Mark Linimon]

On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 11:14:40AM +0200, Mikaël Urankar wrote:
> Last time I tried (2 weeks ago) qemu-ppc64-static was broken, not sure the
> situation has evolved since that.

I've been told by more than one person that it works, but the 2? 3? times
I've tried it it just hung.

I have real hardware so in general it doesn't make a difference to me,
but I'd like to know one way or the other.

mcl
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Re: PR backlog (was: [RFC] Deprecation and removal of the drm2 driver)

[Mark Linimon]

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 09:04:25PM -0700, K. Macy wrote:
> This is where culling older bug reports comes in.

Well, even with doing that, the sheer number really doesn't help the
S/N that much.  It may make someone a bit neurotic like me feel a bit
better, but that's all.

> However, when I've tried wading through the bug system to find things
> that I might be able to fix, I have not found it easy at all.

To me, reasoning about 'search' is the riqht direction to go.  (Apologies
to folks for the long URLs, but I would rather not hide the search terms
here.)

We've been inconsistent about applying the 'patch-ready' tag to indicate
something is ready to go, but here's the current list for the Base System:

  
https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/buglist.cgi?keywords=patch-ready_type=allwords_id=232422=Base%20System_format=advanced=---

8 bugs.  Not that bad.

The 'patch' tag by itself produces a much less satisfying result:

  
https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/buglist.cgi?keywords=patch_type=allwords=0_id=232422=bug_id%20DESC=Base%20System_format=advanced=---

600 bugs.  Moderately overwhelming.

Narrowing it down to just the 'kern' component only helps a little:

  
https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/buglist.cgi?component=kern=patch_type=allwords_id=232433=Base%20System_format=advanced=---

300 bugs.

Looking for tag 'regression' within that is more satisfying:

  
https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/buglist.cgi?component=kern=regression_type=allwords_id=232433=Base%20System_format=advanced=---

82 bugs.

tl:dr; expecting any sane person to 'browse' thousands of entries of
any kind from _any_ kind of list, is itself madness.  OTOH myself, and
koobs and others, are willing to work on the search metadata to at
least make 'search' reasonable.

[obv. disclaimer: I am only citing statistics for Bugzilla here, not
Phabricator; I simply know it better.]

mcl
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Re: PR backlog (was: [RFC] Deprecation and removal of the drm2 driver)

[Mark Linimon]

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 10:25:10PM -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote:
> because the incentives are rigged.  A bad outside contribution brought
> into ports more often yields "hey, you should have noticed" to the
> committer and more opprobrium back to the submitter.

I believe you're missing two important points:

 - there is feedback to the ports committers that goes on behind the
   scenes (e.g. not on public mailing lists);

 - everyone who uses FreeBSD needs src to work.  Not everyone who uses
   FreeBSD needs even a large fraction of ports to work.

Let me reframe this debate.  To me, the correct comparison is:

  "compare commits to src"

 vs. 

  "compare commits to key ports pieces such as Mk/, perl, apache24, "

Commits to the latter are thoroughly tested* in external staging areas
and/or "exp-runs" done by portmgr, _before_ they hit the tree.

For src committers that aren't aware: since adopting the exp-runs, there
have been far, far, fewer large-scale regressions of the ports tree.
Check the monthly portmgr reports to see how much work is going into
this -- and that doesn't count projects like gnome and kde that do their
own external precommit work.

Also, IMHO talking about whether this process is, or should be, automated
misses the point.  The distinguishing feature is the buy-in by the people
who are making changes to the tree to have done sufficient testing _first_.
Without that buy-in, the tools are irrelvant.

Next, let me assure you that anyone who breaks those key pieces of ports
hears about it _immediately_.

tl:dr; at least for the key pieces, FreeBSD ports has moved away from the
"throw it at the wall to see if it will stick" paradigm.  That's the part
of the codebase that ought to be the comparison point.

mcl

* almost always.  They are supposed to be, in any case.  Humans are involved.
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Re: PR backlog (was: [RFC] Deprecation and removal of the drm2 driver)

[Mark Linimon]

Straying off-topic from the Subject line ...

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 11:34:18AM -0400, Joe Maloney wrote:
> Technically since I was using PC-BSD, and was a committer for that
> project I had no real dire need to reach out to FreeBSD about the
> [wireless driver issue].  I was simply trying to help anyone else
> who might be encountering the same issue trying to use stock FreeBSD
> because it was a simple backport.  If my effort had turned out to be
> more fruitful I would have spent more time pursuing tickets, diffs,
> or whatever to get more things back-ported when I found them.

FreeBSD doesn't do well handling problem reports.  We've known it for
years but no one has come up with a magic solution yet.

We have volunteers willing to triage, but not enough committers willing
to suspend working on their own priorities to work through the backlog.
(It's understandable, really.)

And the backlog is astounding. (*)

I hesitate to even look, but ...

  kern   3270
  ports  2010
  bin1607

The flow has decreased from where it was a few years ago -- this stat
says that 727 total new ones have come in this month.

We do slightly better turning over ports PRs -- due to the fact that
we attach a maintainer field to each port.  This doesn't completely
solve the problem, but it goes some distance.

Finally, the number of PRs with patches stands around 1021.  That is
particularly disappointing.

Well, it's too bad we weren't able to corral you into keeping working
on such things.  fwiw.

mcl

*: there are other categories but these constitute the majority (9485
in total).
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Re: hwpmc - wither ppro and p4

[Mark Linimon]

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 12:58:23PM -0700, Steve Kargl wrote:
> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 11:08:18AM -0700, Matthew Macy wrote:
> > 
> > Based on the i386 discussion I recognize that there's a great deal of
> > sentimental attachment to older hardware. However, there's very few
> 
> s/sentimental/practical

I know, but ... in this special case of _performance measurement_ code
on old hardware, I'm going to have to agree with Matt.

mcl
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Re: [RFC] Deprecation and removal of the drm2 driver

[Mark Linimon]

On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 04:19:21PM -0400, Daniel Eischen wrote:
> I can easily imagine an embedded x86 kiosk type appliance.

We need to evaluate the tradeoff of "what we can imagine someone will
do with FreeBSD" vs. "what are people using with FreeBSD right now."

mcl
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Re: Clang-6 and GNUisms.

[Mark Linimon]

The problem is even worse on armv6/armv7/aarch64, and much worse on
powerpc64/sparc64, which still have gcc in base.

I have not been saving up the emails where ports committers have been
fixing various failure modes.  I hesitate to start making harmless-
seeming patches myself for fear of my non-existant C++ skills.

I would be glad to help someone write up some documentation.  This
affects hundreds of port builds right now -- I have not even caught
up yet on tracking them all.

mcl
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Re: valloric YCM [header definitions]

[Mark Linimon]

On Wed, Dec 06, 2017 at 02:18:29AM +0800, blubee blubeeme wrote:
> I'm looking for where the u_int, u_long headers are defined?

Although it seems to be out-of-date, for something fundamental like this
you should be able to use the FXR instance:

  http://fxr.watson.org/fxr/search

mcl
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Re: orangepi [was: what happened to src/sys/boot?]

[Mark Linimon]

On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 09:33:09PM +0100, Milan Obuch wrote:
> Please see thread on freebsd-arm mailing list starting with my message
> titled 'Allwinner H3/H2+ dts question - regression?'

Ah, ok.  My brain did not associate "H3/H2+" with "Orange Pi" so I simply
skipped it.

In any case I can now get the Orange Pi + 2E to boot multiuser and have
it work the same as the Orange Pi One, with the following hack.  Actually
fixing the problem is "left as an exercise for the reader" :-)

  https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=224070

mcl
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orangepi [was: what happened to src/sys/boot?]

[Mark Linimon]

On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 08:55:20PM +0200, Daniel Braniss wrote:
> ok, the image created now boots on both orangepi-one and nanopi-neo,
> but without ethernet! 

So w/rt orangepi-one testing I think I'm now at parity with your
build -- with whatever bits I had a week ago.  e.g. I also do not detect
the ethernet.

I am currently testing a bad hack for orangepi-plus2e that disables
attaching the mixer to see if I can avoid a panic on boot, so I can get
at least as far as the orangepi-one results.  That's with the very latest
code checkout.

I'll let the list know if I get anywhere.

mcl
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ports recently marked broken on -current

[Mark Linimon]

So during my pass over recent powerpc64 package errorlogs, I found
a few ports that were actually broken across all archs on -current,
and made those commits.

I may not have enough cycles to investigate all these down by myself,
so I'm asking for help.  Does anyone recognize any of these failure
modes, and if so, can recommend a fix?

I've grouped them together based on my analysis, which may not be
correct.  Note: error messages from gcc and clang are intermixed.

Thanks.

mcl

benchmarks/dbs  tcp_debug.h: field has incomplete type 'struct tcpcb'
security/revealrk   revealrk.c: 'struct xtcpcb' has no member named 
'xt_socket'
security/pidentdk_freebsd2.c: storage size of 'pcbp' isn't known

japanese/nethack34  stdlib.h: conflicting types for 'srandom'

net-mgmt/netdatafreebsd_sysctl.c: storage size of 'vmmeter_data' isn't 
known
sysutils/asmem  read_mem.c: invalid use of undefined type 'struct 
vmmeter'

net/lft lft_types.h: pcap-int.h: No such file or directory
security/dsniff pcaputil.c: '/usr/include/pcap-int.h' file not found
sysutils/pftop  sf-gencode.h: pcap-int.h: No such file or directory

sysutils/scprotect  scprotect.c: 'sysctl__' undeclared (first use in this 
function)

www/cherokeeunable to detect data struct is used by crypt_r
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Re: lang/gcc6-aux for head beyond __nonnull related issues: vm_ooffset_t and vm_pindex_t related changes (and more)

[Mark Linimon]

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 08:27:29PM -0700, Mark Millard wrote:
> I've seen material quoted from a exp-run that reported
> that about 54(?) ports were then blocked by lang/gcc6-aux
> not building.

Although the first is an older run (the last complete run IIUC), there
were 50 and 51 respectively as of:

http://thunderx1.nyi.freebsd.org/build.html?mastername=110arm64-default=423029
http://beefy8.nyi.freebsd.org/build.html?mastername=head-armv6-default=p437390_s316341

I think you're fairly deep into unexplored territory here.

mcl
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Re: How many versions of clang/llvm are currently required to maintain a system

[Mark Linimon]

On Mon, Mar 06, 2017 at 03:00:23PM +, r...@gid.co.uk wrote:
> Let me rephrase that: the link http://purelang.bitbucket.org/
> quoted on https://wiki.freebsd.org/ObsoleteLLVMVersions doesn’t work,

That's the URL in lang/pure/Makefile.

> should be https://bitbucket.org/purelang/

Hmm.  I looked and it seems like https://purelang.bitbucket.io/ is
a better choice?  What do you think?

mcl
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Re: How many versions of clang/llvm are currently required to maintain a system

[Mark Linimon]

Please see https://wiki.freebsd.org/ObsoleteLLVMVersions .

mcl
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Re: HEADSUP: after r313194 on freebsd-current, lang/gcc ports require a rebuild

[Mark Linimon]

On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 11:24:27PM +0100, Ed Schouten wrote:
> 2017-02-28 21:00 GMT+01:00 Konstantin Belousov :
> > Ideally, ports should stop shipping mangled system includes, or even better,
> > gcc stop doing fixincludes.
> 
> Amen.

Please let me know the magic wand you folks want us to wave to fix up all the
bad usages in ports.

We are barely keeping our heads above water as it is.

mcl
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Re: xpt related hang on sparc64

[Mark Linimon]

On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 11:23:13PM -0700, Alan Somers wrote:
> That error message can mean many different things.  You need to boot
> in verbose mode to get a better idea.

As a test I created a netbootable image from -current the other day.
All I had available to test was an X1 which booted fine.  (It was
just lying around anyway.)

I can try one of the v210s or v215s if you continue to have trouble.

mcl
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Re: [RFC] remove GNU rcs from FreeBSD 12

[Mark Linimon]

On Sun, Nov 06, 2016 at 12:09:30PM +0100, Eivind Nicolay Evensen wrote:
> I also thought that perl was a good example of another piece of software
> that once was provided and no longer is.

Yes, that's true, but somewhat different.

perl was removed because keeping it became incompatible with the concept
of the -stable branches.  perl development was simply moving faster than
FreeBSD major releases, leading to FreeBSD having to keep maintaining an
obsolete piece of software far past the time upstream had dropped support
for it.

Of course this is a problem with any software that FreeBSD imports, but
IIUC this may have been the most painful case.  (I was just starting to
use FreeBSD at the time, so was really just an observer.)

mcl
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Re: [RFC] remove GNU rcs from FreeBSD 12

[Mark Linimon]

On Thu, Nov 03, 2016 at 10:17:23AM +0800, Julian Elischer wrote:
> why should we remove it?

IIUC the plan for several years has been to remove all GPLed software
from base.

But in any case the conversation is moot.  It was removed from head
on 20161015 by bapt:

  https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base?view=revision=307351

UPDATING contains notes about how to install it on your system.

mcl
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Re: FreeBSD-11.0-BETA1-amd64-disc1.iso is too big for my 700MB CD-r

[Mark Linimon]

On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 04:09:10PM +0930, Shane Ambler wrote:
> +1 on dropping CD images.

I have 24U of things that don't have DVD players, including some tier-2
machines for which no upgrade is available.

mcl
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Re: [CFT] packaging the base system with pkg(8)

[Mark Linimon]

On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 05:37:00AM +0300, dan_partelly wrote:
> Year after year you hear about new GsoC projects, then nothing. I find
> it hard to believe that none of those actually produced any useful code.

The goal of GSoC is to introduce new people to FreeBSD more than it is
to produce committable code.

It's designed as a learning experience.

Sometimes, it has the pleasant property of producing code that can be
committed without rework, but not that often.

mcl
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Re: Time to be real

[Mark Linimon]

Thank you for your troll.

For your convenience, we will do our best not to reply to you any
further, to waste either your time, or valuable electrons.

mcl
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Re: HP 2B19WM PCI-E SD Reader

[Mark Linimon]

On Wed, Feb 04, 2015 at 08:21:44AM -0800, Adrian Chadd wrote:
 ... god, people go through a lot of work to not have to write a wifi driver. 
 :)

we're just concerned about you...

...r sanity.

mcl
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Re: Build failed in Jenkins: Build-UFS-image #599

[Mark Linimon]

On Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 01:43:50PM -0800, Garrett Cooper wrote:
 One way to deal with this issue is to svn up a source tree, then rsync

rsync?  ITYM zfs clone :-)

mcl
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Re: OpenSSL vs. LibreSSL (OpenBSD)

[Mark Linimon]

On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 03:05:40PM -0700, Justin Hibbits wrote:
  We need to discuss the use of comic sans font across our web properties
  first.
 
  -Alfred
 
 You, sir, win 2 internets.
 
 - Justin

seconded.
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Re: login.conf -- UTF-8

[Mark Linimon]

On Wed, Apr 02, 2014 at 03:56:35PM -0700, Sean Bruno wrote:
 I have been informed by folks that this change I suggest would help in
 the case of ports having to declare UTF-8 support explicitly or
 something.

Clearly ports that need to do this are broken -- but this very much an
edge-case of brokenness.  There's so much other lower-hanging fruit than
to fix the individual offenders.

mcl
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Re: vt text cursor invisible in reverse video

[Mark Linimon]

On Wed, Apr 02, 2014 at 01:01:11PM +0200, Claude Buisson wrote:
 After 19 years of FreeBSD use and not being part of any chapel/coterie/mafia
 I don't keep much illusion about the outcome..

I'm sorry that you feel that way.

Rest assured that a large number of those of us that work on FreeBSD do
try to improve the software.  We also try to figure out ways to get more
people involved as contributors, to keep things from becoming stagnant.

Yes, I know we're not always successful.

mcl
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Re: PR for pf in kernel

[Mark Linimon]

On Sun, Mar 02, 2014 at 12:39:07AM +0200, Michael Pounov wrote:
 Hi, I wrote this mail because on web page Submit Bug-report missing
 severity for PR and priority options.

Those two fields have become meaningless due to everyone overusing
them.  Changing them will not have much effect.

mcl
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Re: Import of DragonFly Mail Agent

[Mark Linimon]

On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 09:40:26AM -0600, Bryan Drewery wrote:
 IMHO base should be the very minimalistic needs to get a server online,
 and should be secure and simple by default. ...
 Anything not meeting the bare-bones criteria can be installed with 'pkg
 install' or ports.

+1 (OTOH I am not volunteering to do the work :-) )

mcl
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Re: GCC withdraw

[Mark Linimon]

On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 10:41:18AM -0400, John Baldwin wrote:
 So my take away from this is that you have no plans to support any platform
 that doesn't support clang as you just expect ia64 and sparc64 to die and
 not be present in 11.0.  That may be the best path, but I've certainly not
 seen that goal discussed publically.

If this is the case, IMHO:

 - it's a decision to be made by the project as a whole, not just one
   individual;

 - if the decision is made, there should be one major release cycle
   before it's done;

 - our userbase (admittedly small) should have a heads-up that they
   will have to migrate after that timeframe.

fwiw, unlike alpha, which was withdrawn because it had ceased to function,
sparc64 and ia64 work and have active developer(s), so I don't think it
would be entirely fair to cite its removal as a precedent.

tl;dr: just because you don't use these boxes doesn't mean others don't.

mcl
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Re: [HEADSUP] No more pkg_install on HEAD by default

[Mark Linimon]

fwiw, nanobsd also is still on pkg_*, but I intend to come up with
patches for that if someone else has not already done so.

mcl
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Re: gccmakedep fix - 20130619

[Mark Linimon]

On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 01:51:42AM +0200, Oliver Pinter wrote:
  3) Is not it better to submit via PR (GNATS) rather than a mailing list?
That's what PRs are for...
 
 Mail are faster than PR-s.

If we all go down that route, it means less and less people will try
to read all the traffic on ports@.  Please, use the PR database for
what's it's intended for.  Thanks.

mcl
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Re: CLANG and -fstack-protector

[Mark Linimon]

On Thu, Feb 07, 2013 at 11:52:42PM +0100, Jeremie Le Hen wrote:
 You can do this, it will work for most of the ports but some ports do
 not honor CFLAGS.

Ports that don't honor CFLAGS are broken ports.  Having said that,
the last time I ran a script that looked for them (and other things
like CXXFLAGS), the results were really disappointing.

This would be a good project for someone to take on.  OTOH this reply
is probably more appropriate for ports@.

mcl
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Re: Cross-architecture package installs

[Mark Linimon]

On Tue, Feb 05, 2013 at 10:34:18PM -0800, Tim Kientzle wrote:
 I'm working on tools to build ARM system images.
 Usually, these tools run on x86, which creates a problem
 for packages.

fwiw, before the intrusion 3 months ago, I had been able to build
native ARM packages with a loaned system.  Now, granted, this was
pretty slow, but it was a useful reference point.

Unfortunately none of the packages or logfiles are online at this time.

When I was at MeetBSD in California, I learned that the Foundation is
sponsoring an effort to get emulation for tier-2 machines in working
order, and that this will be the plan for package building going forwards.

This is just FYI so you don't spend a great deal of time on each
individual port.  I know the problems will be hard to solve.

mcl
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Re: svn commit: r244865 - in head: . lib lib/libdisk share/mk

[Mark Linimon]

On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 06:57:45PM -0800, Garrett Cooper wrote:
 This is what exp- runs are for (portmgr can help with this).

OTOH -exp runs are currently off the air.

mcl
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Re: -Current built with clang as default + ports

[Mark Linimon]

This is all good advice.  Note, however:

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 10:59:49AM +0100, Dimitry Andric wrote:
 Of special interest are the results from the build cluster, where you
 can get a quick overview of which ports don't build, and how many other
 ports depend on them.

Unfortunately those web pages are offline right now and will not be
back online in the next few days.

mcl
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Re: November 5th is Clang-Day

[Mark Linimon]

On Thu, Nov 01, 2012 at 10:31:26PM -0700, Garrett Cooper wrote:
 On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 10:24 PM, Jan Beich jbe...@tormail.org wrote:
  emulators/wine doesn't work with lib32 built by clang, probably due to
  wine bugs.
 
 All of these items should be catalogued in a common place, like the
 wiki.

I've added http://wiki.freebsd.org/PortsAndClang#Runtime_failures .
I'll be happy to add entries for anyone who does not have wiki edit
credentials.  (Please email me off-list.)

mcl
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Re: [HEADSUP] FYI: patch to ports that do not build with clang has been committed

[Mark Linimon]

On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 05:11:07PM +0200, Roman Divacky wrote:
 Can we arrange exp builds with FORCE_BASE_CC_FOR_TESTING=clang that
 will report all ports with USE_GCC=* but build with clang?

Sure.  That was kind of the intention.

mcl
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[HEADSUP] FYI: patch to ports that do not build with clang has been committed

[Mark Linimon]

The commit mail hasn't gone through yet, so I guess I need to post this
first and reference the commit mail later.

Sometime in the near future, the default CC on -current will be switched
to clang.  The patch I have committed is a workaround -- an interim measure --
to get ready for this transition.

I have made changes to ports/Mk/bsd.gcc.mk that allow the addition of
USE_GCC=any to a port's Makefile, and then committed that change to
various ports.  In most (but not all!) cases this will tell the port
build with gcc instead of clang (*) .

For those users with CC installed as gcc (including -stable), this
patch should have no effect.  Variations of combinations have been
heavily tested on pointyhat-west.  If there are any regressions, please
contact me.

You can see the difference in the errorlogs here:

With USE_GCC=any:

  
http://pointyhat-west.isc.freebsd.org/errorlogs/amd64-errorlogs/e.9-exp-clang.20121007231359.pointyhat-west/index-category.html

Without USE_GCC=any:

  
http://pointyhat-west.isc.freebsd.org/errorlogs/amd64-errorlogs/e.9-exp-clang.20121005165436.pointyhat-west/index-category.html

While the absolute number of errors is not that much different, that
is a false indication: over 2500 more packages are built with than
without.

For those who wish to build *only* with clang, and thus defeat the
workaround, simply set FORCE_BASE_CC_FOR_TESTING=anything, either
in the Makefile line, or, if you are adventurous, in your /etc/make.conf.
We appreciate all the testing that we can get (it is too much for any
small group of people, much less one person.)

In the long run, I would like to see as many ports built natively with
clang as possible, and I appreciate the work that people have been doing
to move us towards that goal.  However, once the switch is made, it
would have been a burden to everyone tracking -current to have suddenly
found themselves enlisted in that effort :-)  So, for the medium-term,
this workaround should reduce the POLA violation.

*Note* that due to the high number (over a thousand!) ports that do not
build with clang, I arbitrarily decided to apply the workaround only to
ports that block 2 or more other ports from building union important
ports.  This does not mean that the workaround shouldn't be applied to
other ports that are too hard to fix.

This is part 1 of a set of patches that are being proposed to deal with
the switchover.  As I merge and test them some more, I will put them out
for further review.

Thanks.

mcl

* several ports are very, very, clever, and detect clang anyways; others
build with gcc if CC is unset, but don't with CC=gcc.  These ports are
broken, and need to be fixed as we continue the process of switching over.
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Re: Clang as default compiler November 4th

[Mark Linimon]

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 08:21:31AM +0200, Pietro Cerutti wrote:
 On 2012-Sep-11, 23:29, Doug Barton wrote:
  What we need to do is what I and others have been asking to do for
  years. We need to designate a modern version of gcc (no less than 4.6)
  as the official default ports compiler, and rework whatever is needed to
  support this. Fortunately, that goal is much more easily achieved than
  fixing ports to build and run with clang. (It's harder than it sounds
  because there are certain key libs that define some paths depending on
  what compiler they were built with, but still easier than dealing with
  clang in the short term.)
 
 I like the idea very much. My only concern is that gcc is heavy to
 build.

Gerald has been advocating this for a while as well.  In fact, he's
just made a commit that makes the lang/gcc42 compiler much easier to
bootstrap itself.

There's a set of interlocking changes that we need to make to the
infrastructure to modernize our compiler choices.  I've been talking
to Gerald about some of the aspects of it and hope to have something
to propose fairly soon.

But IMHO it's a little bit trickier than it appears at first glance.

mcl
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Re: Clang as default compiler November 4th

[Mark Linimon]

On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 11:27:50AM +0200, Lars Engels wrote:
 At the moment the ports maintainers don't give much about if their ports
 build with CLANG or not because they're not forced to.

I think this is a mis-representation.

Adding the requirement your ports must work on clang is adding an
ex-post-facto requirement.  This creates the following matrix of what
we are implicitly asking maintainers to do:

(FreeBSD 7|8|9|10) * (amd64|arm|i386|powerpc|sparc64) * (base gcc|base clang)

It is completely insane to expect anyone to be able to test in all of those
environments, or even a tiny subset of them.  This isn't what most people
sign up for when they sign up to maintain ports.

 Those who don't run CURRENT won't notice, but those who do will have to
 get their butts up and fix the ports

I think it's foolish to assume that maintainres don't have their butts in
gear as it is.  Please note, we have nearly 1300 PRs, hundreds of ports with
build errors and/or PRs, and hundreds that fail on -current only.  I try to
advertise all these things the best I know how.  Adding the hundreds that
fail on -clang only and then blaming the maintainers is simply going to be
counter-productive.

mcl
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Re: Clang as default compiler November 4th

[Mark Linimon]

On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 03:03:43PM +0200, Lars Engels wrote:
 two of the ports I maintain don't build with CLANG, yet. I
 just checked that on the wiki page [1].

To repeat myself, the ports I've listed on that page are the big
problems.  People need to look at the errorlogs URLs up at the
top to see the complete list.

mcl
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Re: Clang as default compiler November 4th

[Mark Linimon]

On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 10:07:04AM +0100, David Chisnall wrote:
 There is some logic in the clang driver already for knowing when it is
 invoked as gcc.  I'd be quite tempted to make gcc a symlink to clang
 and make clang default to gnu89 when invoked in that way.

And how then does a port say I don't compile with clang no matter how
it is invoked?

mcl
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Re: make: don't know how to make add-plist-buildinfo. Stop

[Mark Linimon]

It was a temporary disruption that I caused.  It should be fixed now.

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Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD?

[Mark Linimon]

On Tue, Jun 05, 2012 at 12:18:33PM +0700, Erich wrote:
 I did not know this. Do you have a link for this? I never read about it.

The EOL announcements have them.  I don't think the release announcements
do, however.

mcl
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Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD?

[Mark Linimon]

On Tue, Jun 05, 2012 at 01:00:45PM +0700, Erich wrote:
 All of these, with the exception of HEAD (which is always a valid tag),
 only apply to the src/ tree. The ports/, doc/, and www/ trees are not
 branched.

If you create a branch, you must create a tag for that branch.

However, you can create a tag without creating a branch.  That is what
is done for the ports tree.

It's not particularly easy to see this on cvsweb.  But let's take a look
at a random Mk/bsd.*.mk file via 'cvs log':

  RCS file: /home/FreeBSD/pcvs/ports/Mk/bsd.apache.mk,v
  Working file: bsd.apache.mk
  head: 1.36
  branch:
  locks: strict
  access list:
  symbolic names:
  RELEASE_8_3_0: 1.35
  RELEASE_9_0_0: 1.33
  RELEASE_7_4_0: 1.26
  RELEASE_8_2_0: 1.26
  RELEASE_6_EOL: 1.26
  [...]
  RELEASE_6_1_0: 1.9
  RELEASE_5_5_0: 1.9
  keyword substitution: kv
  total revisions: 36;selected revisions: 36
  description:
  
  revision 1.36
  date: 2012/05/23 08:17:48;  author: miwi;  state: Exp;  lines: +2 -2
  - Remove emacs mode, -*- mode: ...; -*- [1]
  - Comments for BUILD_ and RUN_DEPENDS fail to mention alternate means to 
specify dependencie [2]
  - Fix make reinstall [3]
  - Trivial comment change for PORTDATA [4]
  [...]

and so forth.

The line RELEASE_8_3_0: 1.35 tells you the version of this file
as of tag RELEASE_8_3_0 was r1.35.  So that's what's on the 8.3R
distribution media.

mcl
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Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD?

[Mark Linimon]

On Tue, Jun 05, 2012 at 03:23:01PM +0700, Erich wrote:
 But is this true for apache only or for the whole ports tree?

Entire tree.

mcl
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Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD?

[Mark Linimon]

 One doesn't have to live at the bleeding edge with ports if one
 doesn't want to even when compiling.  One can live a day, a week,
 a month behind the bleeding edge and allow other to hit problems
 and report them.

To be pedantic, there's a lot of difference between reporting problems,
and supplying fixes.

Sometimes figuring out the fixes is beyond the capabilities of our
maintainers, of course.  People should feel free to ask for help on
the mailing lists or forums in those cases.

But our general problem won't be solved merely by tagging.  There
have to be people willing to test based only on whatever tree, or
branch, or whatever, has been tagged.  This is on reason why the tree
at release time is _somewhat_ more stable: we are asking people to
test, test, test.  (The fact that we slow down the rate of major changes
to the tree accounts for the rest.)

mcl
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Re: Use of C99 extra long double math functions after r236148

[Mark Linimon]

Perhaps a more general name might be appropriate so as to include
fixed-point problems?  math-libs@?  numerics@?

I'm sure someone will come up with a better name.

mcl
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Re: UFS+J panics on HEAD

[Mark Linimon]

On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 10:58:48PM +0100, Steven Hartland wrote:
 While it might be a shame to see FFS go by the wayside are there any
 big reasons why you would rather stick with FFS instead of moving
 to ZFS with all the benefits that brings?

 - ZFS eats bytes for breakfast.  It is completely inappropriate
   for anything with less than 4GB RAM.

 - ZFS performs poorly under disk-nearly-full conditions.

mcl
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Re: FYI clang fails to build ports argp-standalone

[Mark Linimon]

a) the best place is freebsd-ports@
b) we do periodic builds of ports with clang as default but in general
   clang is not ready to be the default compiler yet.  Please see
   http://wiki.freebsd.org/PortsAndClang .

mcl
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Re: HEADSUP: /etc/malloc.conf format change

[Mark Linimon]

On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 09:37:36PM -0700, Tim Kientzle wrote:
 The Ports maintainers will run experimental ports builds on the
 port build clusters to help verify potentially disruptive changes
 like this before they are committed.

Well, actually, portmgr@.  Send a PR with [exp-run] in the Synopsis
and assign it to portmgr.

We are slowly trying to get caught up, now that we have new hardware.

mcl
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Re: /sys/conf/kmod.mk, line 111: Malformed conditional (${MK_CLANG_IS_CC}

[Mark Linimon]

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 11:49:44AM +0200, Dimitry Andric wrote:
 It would hopefully error out.  If you look in /usr/share/mk/bsd.kmod.mk,
 you will see this at the bottom:
 
   .if !defined(SYSDIR) || !exists(${SYSDIR}/kern/) || \
   !exists(${SYSDIR}/conf/kmod.mk)
   .error Unable to locate the kernel source tree. Set SYSDIR to override.
   .endif
 
 So, setting SYSDIR to the correct directory is also a possible solution.

Note that in ports-land we discourage .error in the ports infrastructure
as it can make it impossible to query metadata (e.g. make index,
make -V maintainer, etc.)  So this usage should stay in src.

mcl
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Re: Packages for Current ( 10.0 )

[Mark Linimon]

On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 12:04:45AM -0500, Mehmet Erol Sanliturk wrote:
 I would be very happy I can contribute anything to development of FreeBSD .

We are always happy to have help :-)

 If there appears an agenda of testing problems and explicit instructions
 how to apply tests , me and other persons may apply them and report the
 results .

Well, there really isn't.  There are some regression tests for src, but
we have never established a framework to run them all automatically.
Perhaps this is something you might be interested in?

 In a message ( I do not remember its author's name  ) it is said that there
 is no a farm of FreeBSD testing machines .

I presume that's now for no?

There are several sets.  Here's how they are set up.

 - there is a src tinderbox which continually rebuilds the FreeBSD
   src tree, for various combinations of architectures and osreleases.
   (For src, the architectures can be cross-built.)  These are intended
   to sanity-test that src is still buildable; in general the resulting
   binaries are not made available.

 - there is a clang buildbot whose purpose is to build FreeBSD src
   under clang continuously.

 - various people maintain ports tinderboxes.  These are optimized
   for test-builds of one or at least a subset of the ports tree.  In
   general the resulting binaries are not made available.

 - there is a new effort, Redports, to assemble a collection of ports
   tinderbox machines and make them available to interested people.
   We are actively working on this.

 - portmgr maintains the pointyhat cluster that do the package builds
   which are uploaded.  These are optimized for building the entire
   ports tree in a secure fashion; the resulting binaries are made
   available.  We are in the process of getting more machines online.

 - the pointyhat cluster is also used for -exp runs where portmgr
   regression-tests proposed changes to the overall ports tree to
   try to ensure as few regressions for large changes as possible.

 If we can generate such a testing ecological system , I think , FreeBSD
 development will benefit from it very much .

I agree.  But, for src, it's not something that I know much about,
and will have to defer to others to comment.

mcl
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Re: Packages for Current ( 10.0 )

[Mark Linimon]

The portmgr team has not yet started regular package builds for -current.
We are working on re-allocating some resources to be able to do so.

Note, however, that with -current being an early branch of a new major
version, that the src that we are building against is changing rapidly.
My personal recommendation would be that if you want prebuilt packages,
you stay with -stable branches, unless you are particularly interested
in helping to test the state of -current.

mcl
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Re: stable/9 still looking for packages at 9-current

[Mark Linimon]

 On 9. Jan 2012, at 01:04 , Arnaud Lacombe wrote:
 So you are saying that FreeBSD is currently providing on
 ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub images tagged as being 9.0 RELEASE (with
 checksum provided), in a `releases' directory, which are not actually
 release images per-se ?

Excellent!  You've shown the ability to understand flat, declarative,
sentences that have no qualifying phrases.

9.0 will be *released* when and only when the official, signed, email
goes out.  Everything up until that point is preparation.

mcl
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Re: stable/9 still looking for packages at 9-current

[Mark Linimon]

 On 9 January 2012 18:16, Arnaud Lacombe lacom...@gmail.com wrote:
 Excellent!  You've shown the ability to understand flat, declarative,
 sentences that have no qualifying phrases.

 FWIW, this was more a sarcastic sentence

I am being sarcastic because I am frustrated.

I am frustrated because I am having to repeat myself.

 pointing out that FreeBSD is currently officially distributing
 non-released build in a directory which might leads users to consider
 this is the official release, thus misleading them.

I pointed out no such thing.

I am not misleading anyone, nor is the Project.  You are.

It is not officially distributing.  It won't be officially distributed
until, and only until, the signed email goes out.  This is the third email
in a row where I have made this flat, factual, statement.

Until that time, the contents of various websites is irrelevant.

That mail will not go out until (among other things):

 - the Release Engineering team determines there are no last-minute
   gotchas,

 - all the bits are on all the mirrors, so that users will not go to
   their local mirror, find it not there yet, then pound on the master,
   bringing it to a crawl,

 - the Release Notes are in their final form,

 - a news announcement is in its final form,

and other things that I, not being on re@, am probably not aware of.

These things are the *preparation* steps.  They all have to be in
place to make sure that everything is ready for when the mass downloads
begin.  This is to prevent people who are installing the release from
having a bad experience, e.g., with missing documentation.

  Do you expect me to consult freebsd-announce@, verify the signature
  of the announce, the hash of the ISOs, etc. to consider that 9.0 has
  been released ?

That is exactly what I expect.  In fact, I insist on it.  And the reason
I insist on it is because this is the documented procedure, and has been
for at least 14 releases in the last 6 years, and most likely many before
I became active.

  No, I see 9.0 ISOs in a `releases' directory, I assume it has been
  released, whatever your spreading process is.

You assumed so, posted, were told it was not correct, and cannot seem
to accept that answer.  I'm sorry, but it's the correct answer, and all
the argumentation in the world will not change that answer.

  Btw, none of the CHECKSUMS files are signed on the FTP.

Perhaps that's part of the preparatory steps.

mcl
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Re: stable/9 still looking for packages at 9-current

[Mark Linimon]

On Sun, Jan 08, 2012 at 07:26:47PM -0500, Eitan Adler wrote:
 On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Arnaud Lacombe lacom...@gmail.com wrote:
  Hi,
 
  On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 5:12 PM, Peter fb...@peterk.org wrote:
  Hello,
   Installed 9-RELEASE amd64, [...]
  Has 9.0 been released ?

9.0 will, and only will, be released when an announcement is made on
freebsd-annou...@freebsd.org, containing such things as verified
checksums.

Any information sent before that happens is not canonical.

mcl
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Re: Benchmark (Phoronix): FreeBSD 9.0-RC2 vs. Oracle Linux 6.1 Server

[Mark Linimon]

On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 04:04:31PM +0100, O. Hartmann wrote:
 There maybe serious reasons having the Linuxulator, i do not know. But
 if not, why spending rare developer resources on that?

This is a classical misunderstanding of the FreeBSD development model.

There is no staff standing around waiting for assignments, as with
a commercial company.  When committers join the project, they usually
(almost always) already have a long list of things that they want to
work on.  And then they go work on them.

Neither the core team, nor the FreeBSD Foundation, direct the project
and its course of development.  Some of the members of each do post
emails, or stand up in front of conferences, and say you know, I think
it would be really neat if someone did xyz.  Sometimes this leads to
results, sometimes not.

As for the companies that have their own FreeBSD-derived products,
often their goals are tightly focused, e.g. improve the number of
packets we can pass or support our specialized hardware.  Some,
but not all, of the resultant work makes it back into FreeBSD.  We
get to say it would be really neat if ...; and, in addition, point
to possible future minimization of merging and duplication of effort
as a way to save costs long-term.

But with these exceptions, development is primarily driven from the
bottom-up (individual committers find something they are interested in
working on, and then go work on it), and not the top-down as in real
companies.  This is the way the overwhelming majority (90+%?) of the
work on FreeBSD gets done.

So, there's no one assigned the tasks of closing PRs, nor working on
coordinating code with the other BSDs, nor working on the Linuxolator,
nor even supporting high-performance computing.

It's a cooperative anarchy, not a hierarchy.

mcl
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Re: Removal of sysinstall from HEAD and lack of a post-install configuration tool

[Mark Linimon]

On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 10:23:58AM -0800, Pedro Giffuni wrote:
 How am I supposed to install prebuilt packages (and the myriad of
 dependencies) from now on?

I strongly recommend using portmaster.  The manpage is very dense but
to start with, use something like the following (I'm just picking one
port at random, pkg_cutleaves, to install):

  portmaster -PP ports-mgmt/pkg_cutleaves

mcl
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FreeBSD funding [was: Re: Benchmark (Phoronix): FreeBSD 9.0-RC2 vs. Oracle Linux 6.1] Server

[Mark Linimon]

I have slightly reordered your email in my reply, in order to put the
most important item last.

On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 12:01:33PM +0100, O. Hartmann wrote:
 I'm still with the system, although I desperately need scientific grade
 compilers or GPGPU support.

Your use-case, while valid, is clearly not the use-case that most of
the committers working on FreeBSD face.  But see below.

 And, I dare to put some critics herein! Since I see that FreeBSD is
 free, why not trying to make it better and more towards perfect?

Everyone wants the product to improve.  The question is, what is
achievable with the current committers?  That's where you see the
pushback and frustration from the current committers.

 Look at FreeBSD and the problem of how well sysctls and their
 working are documented. It needs to be fixed.

There's no argument that some of the FreeBSD documentation is stale.
We do, however, have one committer (eadler@) who has been trying to
move the sysctl documentation forwards.

Participation from the wider community is key.  Although sending PRs
does not guarantee things will get fixed, it's currently the best way
that we have.

 Well, as far as I know, the FreeBSD project is funding people doing a
 certain work! So, the implied opposite, FreeBSD is developed free
 isn't true.

So here's the key point of your email IMHO, and the key misunderstanding.

First, let me nit-pick the legalities.  The FreeBSD Foundation
(http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/) is a US non-profit that does fund
some activities, and that's what I'll talk about here.  The FreeBSD
Project is the collective term for all of the committers and developers
and is not an entity for US legal purposes.

Second, the disclaimers: I am not a member of the FreeBSD Foundation
Board of Directors, so I am not speaking for them.  I have also directly
benefited from Foundation funding (both travel, and via equipment they
bought for portmgr), so am hardly unbiased.

Now on to the gist of that matter.

As a US non-profit, the Foundation is required to post its financial
information to the public, and it does on its website:

  http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/documents/Budget2011.pdf

You'll see here that the total budget for 2011 is $400k (USD).

This, frankly, is miniscule.

The largest line item for 2011 is $125k for project funding, which has
gone towards 9 different projects (see
http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/activities.shtml).  For comparison,
keep in mind that a commercial developers' salary in the US is upwards
of $100k/yr.

Even with this being a substantial increase from 2010's $83k, these
numbers are tiny comared to real-world budgets.

The projects that were sponsored were primarily networking-related, but
also the GEM/KMS/DRI project, jails, the libc++ replacement, and clocks.
I've listed those in the order that I think the most consumers of FreeBSD
will be affected by.  Note the absence of any work towards performance,
schedulers, compilers, or numerical analysis.  With a $125k budget, you're
simply not going to see those on the list.

The other notable line items are: hardware purchases (explicit disclaimer:
portmgr has been one of the primary beneficiaries); conference sponsorship;
conference travel; and salary for one employee to try to help coordinate all
the above.  Legal fees (things involving trademarking and licensing issues)
takes up most of the remaining.

I can't figure out the Linux Foundation's budget from their website, but I
can tell immediately that their budget is a great many times more than $400k.

Summary: on a fraction of the budget that Linux has available, we _nearly
keep up_.  I can't imagine what we could do with comparable funding.

So, for everyone who thinks we are being well funded, here's your reality
check.

And please note that the Foundation is in its year-end fund drive, too.

Thanks for listening.

mcl
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status of ports and clang

[Mark Linimon]

I have recently been able to get the new build cluster on pointyhat-west
set up to run full builds of ports with clang on amd64-9.  I have documented
the latest results on the wiki:

  http://wiki.freebsd.org/PortsAndClang

If you are interested in working on ports being built via clang, this
is your place to start.

Please also note that now that we have up-to-date builds going, it is
not as useful to us to report individual clang build failures.  Patches
to fix problems are, of course, highly welcome.

mcl
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Re: amd64 packages

[Mark Linimon]

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 10:46:08PM +0400, siur wrote:
 why there is still no packages for 10-current? Did I miss something?

We're trying to debug multiple package building problems, and currently
using i386-10 for that.  Until we get farther along with that process,
we aren't doing amd64-10 yet.

mcl
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Re: Problem with pkg_add

[Mark Linimon]

On Fri, Dec 09, 2011 at 09:16:13AM -0500, Derek Tattersall wrote:
 After installing 9.0-RC2 or RC3, pkg_add -r fails in trying to access
 ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/ports/amd64/package-9-current as the
 terminal directory is acually packages-9-stable.  It is a one line
 change in the source for pkg_add.

For the moment, I've provided compatibility symlinks on ftp-master.
Expect it to propogate shortly.

mcl
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Re: 9.0 beta2 the new bsdinstaller

[Mark Linimon]

 Wiki, gnats, scrap of paper on someones desk, etc?

I've put a link to the few existing PRs in GNATS onto the wiki page.

mcl
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Re: cvsup broken on amd64?

[Mark Linimon]

 Usually rather quite later than sooner.

A perfect opportunity for src committers to dive in and make a
difference :-)

mcl
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Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html

[Mark Linimon]

On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 09:45:09PM +0800, Paul Ambrose wrote:
 3 There is a missing feature list about DTrace, but no schedule list about
 when to fix it.

We just need someone who wants to spend a lot of time working on it.

Without that, there is no point in putting up a schedule.

mcl
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Re: New installation script

[Mark Linimon]

On Sat, Aug 06, 2011 at 01:18:02PM -0400, Garrett Wollman wrote:
 I initially chose traditional Unix workstation, which was unusable.
 (Never did find the control or escape key, which made vi particularly
 difficult to use.)

It should probably be labeled old-fart Unix user which would have
instantly told me that it put the Control key back in the pre-IMB-PC
location (where the idiotic and counter-productive 'Caps Lock' key is
now, sigh).

But that battle was lost several decades ago.

mcl
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Re: [head tinderbox] failure on powerpc/powerpc

[Mark Linimon]

On Mon, Aug 08, 2011 at 06:53:40PM -0400, Super Bisquit wrote:
 Why does Tinderbox need cross tools? Is the build not native? If so, then
 the rationale would be to build on the architecture and not use cross
 compilation.

 - There are no powerpc machines currently online at *.FreeBSD.org.

 - The powerpc machines that we run on are far slower than the tinderbox
   machines.

 - Even if we had powerpc machines available, and could deal with the
   time-lag for world builds, what then about archs with no native
   machines available (e.g. MIPS)?

Cross compilation is needed in this case.

mcl
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Re: gcc-4.5 and 4.6 needs to be recompiled due to /usr/src/UPDATE: 20110608:

[Mark Linimon]

Things that change the way the base system behaves w/rt ports need
version bumps.

mcl
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Re: Building FreeBSD 9.0-CUR/amd64 with CLANG fails

[Mark Linimon]

On Wed, May 04, 2011 at 09:17:23AM +0200, O. Hartmann wrote:
 I guess the ports-tree isn't mature for clang.

That's correct.

mcl
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Re: Request to mailing list freebsd-security rejected

[Mark Linimon]

On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 08:17:23AM -0400, Etienne Robillard wrote:
 Google cognitive dissonance for more info...

Google plonk for more info.

mcl
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Re: utmpx

[Mark Linimon]

On Fri, Nov 05, 2010 at 01:09:06PM +0100, Ed Schouten wrote:
 It should be noted that that list is a bit pessimistic, since various
 ports have been fixed in the mean time.

Updates welcomed :-)

mcl
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Re: ZFS will gone,FreeBSD will import btrfs?

[Mark Linimon]

On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 12:21:07PM +0800, lhmwzy wrote:
 opensolaris is gone

It appears there will be a fork, but that's not particularly crucial
to FreeBSD.

 ZFS also gone.

We're not going to drop ZFS because Oracle's plans are unclear.  It
remains to be seen how much other community support there is behind ZFS.

 Will FreeBSD import btrfs or other similar file system?

From my observation, it takes about 2 years from the initial work on a
new filesystem until it's relatively stable, so I don't know why we would
suddenly decide to go that direction.

mcl
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