No sound in -current?

2003-03-28 Thread Scott R.
Hello,

I just updated my system last night around 8 PM PST and today I have no 
sound.  XMMS says it's playing music and I can see that it thinks it's 
playing something, but I am hearing nothing.  Same deal with RealPlayer 
and every other app I try.  No crackles, pops or *anything*.  Just dead 
silence.  Is this a known issue?  Sound was working fine with my 
previous system from a couple of weeks ago.

I'm running:
FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT #0: Thu Mar 27 20:24:08 PST 2003
and 'cat /dev/sndstat' yields:
FreeBSD Audio Driver (newpcm)
Installed devices:
pcm0: VIA VT82C686A at io 0xdc00 irq 5 (1p/1r/0v channels duplex default)
Any ideas?

Thanks in advance,
Scott
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No sound in -current?

2003-03-28 Thread Scott R.
Hello,

I just updated my system last night around 8 PM PST and today I have no
sound.  XMMS says it's playing music and I can see that it thinks it's
playing something, but I am hearing nothing.  Same deal with RealPlayer
and every other app I try.  No crackles, pops or *anything*.  Just dead
silence.  Is this a known issue?  Sound was working fine with my
previous system from a couple of weeks ago.
I'm running:
FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT #0: Thu Mar 27 20:24:08 PST 2003
and 'cat /dev/sndstat' yields:
FreeBSD Audio Driver (newpcm)
Installed devices:
pcm0: VIA VT82C686A at io 0xdc00 irq 5 (1p/1r/0v channels duplex default)
Any ideas?

Thanks in advance,
Scott
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Re:No sound in -current?

2003-03-28 Thread Orion Hodson

Scott R. writes:
| I just updated my system last night around 8 PM PST and today I have no
| sound.  XMMS says it's playing music and I can see that it thinks it's
| playing something, but I am hearing nothing.  Same deal with RealPlayer
| and every other app I try.  No crackles, pops or *anything*.  Just dead
| silence.  Is this a known issue?  Sound was working fine with my
| previous system from a couple of weeks ago.

Scott

A fix for this was committed this morning (PST).  Please let me know if you 
experience any audio problems after the next update.

Thanks
- Orion

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Re: trying to play sound in -current

2001-09-04 Thread John Baldwin


On 04-Sep-01 David W. Chapman Jr. wrote:
 On Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 08:44:58PM -0700, John Baldwin wrote:
 
 On 02-Sep-01 Julian Elischer wrote:
  David W. Chapman Jr. wrote:
  
  I get this a lot recently when I try to play anything
  
   echo test  /dev/dsp0
  /dev/dsp0: Device busy.
  
  even when it shouldn't be busy, after atbout 10 mins it usually
  becomes not busy
  
  sure your window manager isn't using it?
  (e.g. 'enlighten' does, as does kde in some configurations)
 
 Shouldnt' matter in -current since the sound driver does software mixing of
 multiple input channels (meaning that multiple processes can open /dev/dsp
 at
 the same time and it all Just Works (tm)).
 
 I was instructed to set snd.hw.vchan=4 I believe and it has appeared 
 to fix this, by default its at 1 and they aren't mixed.

Really?  I've run multiple mpg123's before and had it mix the output
appropriately w/o needing to set any sysctl's.

In fact, am doing so right now inside of KDE (with arts or whatever their sound
daemon is called also running).  Granted, it sounds rather weird. :-P

  915 john  -80  5236K   900K pcmwr0:01  1.66%  1.51% mpg123
  914 john  -80  4336K   912K pcmwr0:01  1.64%  1.51% mpg123

 sysctl hw.snd
hw.snd.verbose: 0
hw.snd.unit: 0
hw.snd.autovchans: 0
hw.snd.maxvchans: 0
hw.snd.pcm0.vchans: 0
hw.snd.pcm0.hwvol_step: 5
hw.snd.pcm0.hwvol_mixer: vol

-- 

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Re: trying to play sound in -current

2001-09-04 Thread David W. Chapman Jr.

On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 09:40:44AM -0700, John Baldwin wrote:
 
 In fact, am doing so right now inside of KDE (with arts or whatever their sound
 daemon is called also running).  Granted, it sounds rather weird. :-P
 
   915 john  -80  5236K   900K pcmwr0:01  1.66%  1.51% mpg123
   914 john  -80  4336K   912K pcmwr0:01  1.64%  1.51% mpg123
 
  sysctl hw.snd
 hw.snd.verbose: 0
 hw.snd.unit: 0
 hw.snd.autovchans: 0
 hw.snd.maxvchans: 0
 hw.snd.pcm0.vchans: 0
 hw.snd.pcm0.hwvol_step: 5
 hw.snd.pcm0.hwvol_mixer: vol
 
If everything is using artsd then that may be the reason.  My problem 
was I had apps using esound, artsd and them vmware directly talking 
to dsp.  But this is only from what I gather, not from knowledge.

-- 
David W. Chapman Jr.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   Raintree Network Services, Inc. www.inethouston.net
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   FreeBSD Committer www.FreeBSD.org

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Re: trying to play sound in -current

2001-09-04 Thread Jim Bryant

John Baldwin wrote:

 On 04-Sep-01 David W. Chapman Jr. wrote:
 
On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 09:40:44AM -0700, John Baldwin wrote:

In fact, am doing so right now inside of KDE (with arts or whatever their
sound
daemon is called also running).  Granted, it sounds rather weird. :-P

  915 john  -80  5236K   900K pcmwr0:01  1.66%  1.51% mpg123
  914 john  -80  4336K   912K pcmwr0:01  1.64%  1.51% mpg123


sysctl hw.snd

hw.snd.verbose: 0
hw.snd.unit: 0
hw.snd.autovchans: 0
hw.snd.maxvchans: 0
hw.snd.pcm0.vchans: 0
hw.snd.pcm0.hwvol_step: 5
hw.snd.pcm0.hwvol_mixer: vol


If everything is using artsd then that may be the reason.  My problem 
was I had apps using esound, artsd and them vmware directly talking 
to dsp.  But this is only from what I gather, not from knowledge.

 
 Note the mpg123 processes.  They are in pcmwr, i.e. writing to /dev/dsp
 directly and not going through artsd.


I haven't looked at the code, but does a value of 0 for vchans mean infinite, I know 
this is a standard use for the value of zero in 
some instances...

The other guy's was set to 1, raising it fixed his problem.  Yours works with multiple 
opens with a value of zero.


jim
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Re: trying to play sound in -current

2001-09-04 Thread David W. Chapman Jr.

 I haven't looked at the code, but does a value of 0 for vchans mean 
 infinite, I know this is a standard use for the value of zero in some 
 instances...
 
What what I gather, 0 means none, only use how many channels the 
sound card has.  I'm assuming that John has multiple hardware 
channels.

-- 
David W. Chapman Jr.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   Raintree Network Services, Inc. www.inethouston.net
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   FreeBSD Committer www.FreeBSD.org

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Re: trying to play sound in -current

2001-09-04 Thread Jim Bryant

David W. Chapman Jr. wrote:

I haven't looked at the code, but does a value of 0 for vchans mean 
infinite, I know this is a standard use for the value of zero in some 
instances...


 What what I gather, 0 means none, only use how many channels the 
 sound card has.  I'm assuming that John has multiple hardware 
 channels.


Okay, that makes sense.  I was wondering, because mine also shows a value of zero and 
works with multiple opens, but then I'm using 
a SB-Live!, and it has a lot of hardware channels, so if I switched to the Yamaha POS 
on the motherboard, I would have locks.  This 
makes sense.


jim
-- 
 ET has one helluva sense of humor!
He's always anal-probing right-wing schizos!

   POWER TO THE PEOPLE!


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Re: trying to play sound in -current

2001-09-04 Thread John Baldwin


On 04-Sep-01 David W. Chapman Jr. wrote:
 On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 09:40:44AM -0700, John Baldwin wrote:
 
 In fact, am doing so right now inside of KDE (with arts or whatever their
 sound
 daemon is called also running).  Granted, it sounds rather weird. :-P
 
   915 john  -80  5236K   900K pcmwr0:01  1.66%  1.51% mpg123
   914 john  -80  4336K   912K pcmwr0:01  1.64%  1.51% mpg123
 
  sysctl hw.snd
 hw.snd.verbose: 0
 hw.snd.unit: 0
 hw.snd.autovchans: 0
 hw.snd.maxvchans: 0
 hw.snd.pcm0.vchans: 0
 hw.snd.pcm0.hwvol_step: 5
 hw.snd.pcm0.hwvol_mixer: vol
 
 If everything is using artsd then that may be the reason.  My problem 
 was I had apps using esound, artsd and them vmware directly talking 
 to dsp.  But this is only from what I gather, not from knowledge.

Note the mpg123 processes.  They are in pcmwr, i.e. writing to /dev/dsp
directly and not going through artsd.

-- 

John Baldwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/
PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc
Power Users Use the Power to Serve!  -  http://www.FreeBSD.org/

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Re: trying to play sound in -current

2001-09-03 Thread John Baldwin


On 02-Sep-01 Julian Elischer wrote:
 David W. Chapman Jr. wrote:
 
 I get this a lot recently when I try to play anything
 
  echo test  /dev/dsp0
 /dev/dsp0: Device busy.
 
 even when it shouldn't be busy, after atbout 10 mins it usually
 becomes not busy
 
 sure your window manager isn't using it?
 (e.g. 'enlighten' does, as does kde in some configurations)

Shouldnt' matter in -current since the sound driver does software mixing of
multiple input channels (meaning that multiple processes can open /dev/dsp at
the same time and it all Just Works (tm)).

-- 

John Baldwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/
PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc
Power Users Use the Power to Serve!  -  http://www.FreeBSD.org/

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Re: trying to play sound in -current

2001-09-03 Thread David W. Chapman Jr.

On Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 08:44:58PM -0700, John Baldwin wrote:
 
 On 02-Sep-01 Julian Elischer wrote:
  David W. Chapman Jr. wrote:
  
  I get this a lot recently when I try to play anything
  
   echo test  /dev/dsp0
  /dev/dsp0: Device busy.
  
  even when it shouldn't be busy, after atbout 10 mins it usually
  becomes not busy
  
  sure your window manager isn't using it?
  (e.g. 'enlighten' does, as does kde in some configurations)
 
 Shouldnt' matter in -current since the sound driver does software mixing of
 multiple input channels (meaning that multiple processes can open /dev/dsp at
 the same time and it all Just Works (tm)).
 
I was instructed to set snd.hw.vchan=4 I believe and it has appeared 
to fix this, by default its at 1 and they aren't mixed.

-- 
David W. Chapman Jr.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   Raintree Network Services, Inc. www.inethouston.net
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   FreeBSD Committer www.FreeBSD.org

To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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trying to play sound in -current

2001-09-02 Thread David W. Chapman Jr.

I get this a lot recently when I try to play anything

 echo test  /dev/dsp0
/dev/dsp0: Device busy.

even when it shouldn't be busy, after atbout 10 mins it usually 
becomes not busy

pcm0: Creative CT5880-A port 0xd000-0xd03f irq 5 at device 14.0 on pci0
-- 
David W. Chapman Jr.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   Raintree Network Services, Inc. www.inethouston.net
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   FreeBSD Committer www.FreeBSD.org

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Re: trying to play sound in -current

2001-09-02 Thread Julian Elischer

"David W. Chapman Jr." wrote:
 
 I get this a lot recently when I try to play anything
 
  echo test  /dev/dsp0
 /dev/dsp0: Device busy.
 
 even when it shouldn't be busy, after atbout 10 mins it usually
 becomes not busy

sure your window manager isn't using it?
(e.g. 'enlighten' does, as does kde in some configurations)

 
 pcm0: Creative CT5880-A port 0xd000-0xd03f irq 5 at device 14.0 on pci0
 --
 David W. Chapman Jr.
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Raintree Network Services, Inc. www.inethouston.net
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   FreeBSD Committer www.FreeBSD.org
 
 To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message

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|  /   \ [EMAIL PROTECTED] +--x   USA\ a very strange
| (   OZ)\___   ___ | country !
+- X_.---._/presently in San Francisco   \_/   \\
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Re: trying to play sound in -current

2001-09-02 Thread David W. Chapman Jr.

I suppose it uses it, but why does it lock it for extended periods of
time.  KDE can't even use the sound driver while this is happening.

- Original Message -
From: Julian Elischer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: David W. Chapman Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2001 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: trying to play sound in -current


 David W. Chapman Jr. wrote:
 
  I get this a lot recently when I try to play anything
 
   echo test  /dev/dsp0
  /dev/dsp0: Device busy.
 
  even when it shouldn't be busy, after atbout 10 mins it usually
  becomes not busy

 sure your window manager isn't using it?
 (e.g. 'enlighten' does, as does kde in some configurations)

 
  pcm0: Creative CT5880-A port 0xd000-0xd03f irq 5 at device 14.0 on
pci0
  --
  David W. Chapman Jr.
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Raintree Network Services, Inc.
www.inethouston.net
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   FreeBSD Committer www.FreeBSD.org
 
  To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message

 --
 ++   __ _  __
 |   __--_|\  Julian Elischer |   \ U \/ / hard at work in
 |  /   \ [EMAIL PROTECTED] +--x   USA\ a very strange
 | (   OZ)\___   ___ | country !
 +- X_.---._/presently in San Francisco   \_/   \\
   v




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Re: trying to play sound in -current

2001-09-02 Thread Cameron Grant

 I suppose it uses it, but why does it lock it for extended periods of
 time.  KDE can't even use the sound driver while this is happening.

set sysctl hw.snd.verbose as high as it'll go (3, with the latest code) and
cat /dev/sndstat.  it'll tell you the pid of the process using each channel.

-cg



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Re: trying to play sound in -current

2001-09-02 Thread David W. Chapman Jr.

On Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 09:43:28PM +0100, Cameron Grant wrote:
  I suppose it uses it, but why does it lock it for extended periods of
  time.  KDE can't even use the sound driver while this is happening.
 
 set sysctl hw.snd.verbose as high as it'll go (3, with the latest code) and
 cat /dev/sndstat.  it'll tell you the pid of the process using each channel.
 
Now that I know how to debug it I can't seem to reproduce it for a 
length of time that will provide me with the pid of the process 
that's taking it, but thank you for the info.  Just curious, how many 
channels do I have, I don't quite understand the output.

FreeBSD Audio Driver (newpcm)
Installed devices:
pcm0: Creative CT5880-A at io 0xd000 irq 5 (1p/1r/0v channels 
duplex default)
[pcm0:0:record]: speed 0, format , flags 
interrupts 0, overruns 0, hfree 4096, sfree 0
{hardware} - feeder_root() - {userland}
[pcm0:1:play]: speed 44100, format 1010, flags 7030, pid 581
interrupts 124, underruns 0, ready 40960
{hardware} - feeder_root(1010) - {userland}

-- 
David W. Chapman Jr.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   Raintree Network Services, Inc. www.inethouston.net
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Re: trying to play sound in -current

2001-09-02 Thread Jim Bryant

I recall reading the explanation somewhere on the KDE site on why artsd will hold a 
lock on the sound device, but as I recall the 
lock is like for 30 or 60 seconds...  Reading the explanation I seem to recall 
thinking it was a lame hack solution to the problem 
of dealing with multiple opens on older sound hardware that can't handle multiple 
opens.  I forget where this was but it was related 
to artsd.

Julian Elischer wrote:

 "David W. Chapman Jr." wrote:
 
I get this a lot recently when I try to play anything


echo test  /dev/dsp0

/dev/dsp0: Device busy.

even when it shouldn't be busy, after atbout 10 mins it usually
becomes not busy

 
 sure your window manager isn't using it?
 (e.g. 'enlighten' does, as does kde in some configurations)
 
 
pcm0: Creative CT5880-A port 0xd000-0xd03f irq 5 at device 14.0 on pci0
--
David W. Chapman Jr.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   Raintree Network Services, Inc. www.inethouston.net
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   FreeBSD Committer www.FreeBSD.org

To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message

 


-- 
 ET has one helluva sense of humor!
He's always anal-probing right-wing schizos!

   POWER TO THE PEOPLE!


_
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


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Re: trying to play sound in -current

2001-09-02 Thread David W. Chapman Jr.

That seems to confirm the results of my research.  artsd is the sound server
and apparently it defaults to a 60 second lock.

- Original Message -
From: "Jim Bryant" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "Julian Elischer" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: "David W. Chapman Jr." [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2001 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: trying to play sound in -current


 I recall reading the explanation somewhere on the KDE site on why artsd
will hold a lock on the sound device, but as I recall the
 lock is like for 30 or 60 seconds...  Reading the explanation I seem to
recall thinking it was a lame hack solution to the problem
 of dealing with multiple opens on older sound hardware that can't handle
multiple opens.  I forget where this was but it was related
 to artsd.




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No sound in current from ES1370

2000-10-29 Thread Michael Class

Hello,

recent 5.0-current versions do not generate sound any more on my 
Soundblaster PCI128 (Ensoniq 1370-Chip). On a kernel build from 
sources from Oct. 17th everything was o.k.  So I guess it must be
the changes that went in on Oct. 26th. I will try to backout these.

Anyways if someone wants to look into this, I have enclosed the 
kernel-config-file and the dmesg output.

TIA

Michael

-
michael class, viktor-renner str. 39, 72074 tuebingen, frg
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Phone: +49 7031 14-3707 (work) +49 7071 81950 (private)
-


Copyright (c) 1992-2000 The FreeBSD Project.
Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994
The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved.
FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT #0: Sun Oct 29 10:35:44 MET 2000
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/usr/src/sys/compile/MCSMP
Timecounter "i8254"  frequency 1193182 Hz
CPU: Pentium II/Pentium II Xeon/Celeron (349.07-MHz 686-class CPU)
  Origin = "GenuineIntel"  Id = 0x652  Stepping = 2
  
Features=0x183fbffFPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,PAE,MCE,CX8,APIC,SEP,MTRR,PGE,MCA,CMOV,PAT,PSE36,MMX,FXSR

real memory  = 268369920 (262080K bytes)
avail memory = 256327680 (250320K bytes)
Programming 24 pins in IOAPIC #0
IOAPIC #0 intpin 2 - irq 0
FreeBSD/SMP: Multiprocessor motherboard
 cpu0 (BSP): apic id:  0, version: 0x00040011, at 0xfee0
 cpu1 (AP):  apic id:  1, version: 0x00040011, at 0xfee0
 io0 (APIC): apic id:  2, version: 0x00170011, at 0xfec0
Preloaded elf kernel "kernel" at 0xc04a5000.
Pentium Pro MTRR support enabled
md0: Malloc disk
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npx0: math processor on motherboard
npx0: INT 16 interface
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pci0: PCI bus on pcib0
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pci1: PCI bus on pcib1
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pcm0: AudioPCI ES1370 port 0xd400-0xd43f irq 17 at device 9.0 on pci0
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irq 18 at device 10.0 on pci0
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miibus0: MII bus on xl0
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bktr0: Hauppauge Model 61344 D121
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control.
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fd0: 1440-KB 3.5" drive on fdc0 drive 0
atkbdc0: Keyboard controller (i8042) at port 0x60,0x64 on isa0
atkbd0: AT Keyboard flags 0x1 irq 1 on atkbdc0
kbd0 at atkbd0
psm0: PS/2 Mouse irq 12 on atkbdc0
psm0: model Generic PS/2 mouse, device ID 0
vga0: Generic ISA VGA at port 0x3c0-0x3df iomem 0xa-0xb on isa0
sc0: System console on isa0
sc0: VGA 16 virtual consoles, flags=0x200
sio0 at port 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x10 on isa0
sio0: type 16550A
sio1 at port 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa0
sio1: type 16550A
ppc0: Parallel port at port 0x378-0x37f irq 7 on isa0
ppc0: Generic chipset (NIBBLE-only) in COMPATIBLE mode
lpt0: Printer on ppbus0
lpt0: Interrupt-driven port
unknown: PNP0303 can't assign 

Re: Sound and -current.

1999-12-20 Thread Julian Elischer

That's the hint I was looking for.. I had the pcm0 but didn't know we now
had to add a special sbc entry..
THANKS!

Now I know what I'm looking for i'll ge an dlook at LINT to see what else
is in that vicinty.

I guess I stopped reading at:
# For pnp sound cards:
#device pcm0




On Sun, 19 Dec 1999, Devin Butterfield wrote:

 Julian Elischer wrote:
  
  So is there any chance that my Vibra16 Soundblaster will ever be
  recognised again?
  
  I was surprised because I had imagined that the soundblaster would be the
  first card supported under the new code.
  
  unknown0: Audio at port 0x220-0x22f,0x300-0x301,0x388-0x38b irq 7 drq
  0,5 on isa0
  unknown1: IDE at port 0x168-0x16f,0x36e-0x36f irq 10 on isa0
  unknown2: Game at port 0x200-0x207 on isa0
  
  To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
 
 Silly question but...do you have:
 
 devicepcm0
 devicesbc0
 
 in your kernel config? I have the ViBRA16X and I got the same messages
 during boot until I compiled support into the kernel. Now it looks like:
 
 sbc0: Creative ViBRA16X at port 0x220-0x22f,0x330-0x331,0x388-0x38b
 irq 5 drq1,3 on isa0
 pcm0: SB DSP 4.16 on sbc0
 unknown0: Game at port 0x201 on isa0r
 
 Of course I'm not using the game port. :)
 --
 Regards, Devin.
 



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Re: Sound and -current.

1999-12-20 Thread Chris Costello

On Sun, Dec 19, 1999, Julian Elischer wrote:
 So is there any chance that my Vibra16 Soundblaster will ever be
 recognised again?

   Did you add the sbc0 bridge driver to your kernel
configuration file?  (I managed to miss that heads-up the first
time around too.)

-- 
|Chris Costello [EMAIL PROTECTED]
|Computers are a more fun way to do the same
|work you'd have to do without them.
`---


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Re: Sound and -current.

1999-12-20 Thread Alexander Leidinger

On 19 Dec, Devin Butterfield wrote:

 sbc0: Creative ViBRA16X at port 0x220-0x22f,0x330-0x331,0x388-0x38b
 irq 5 drq1,3 on isa0
 pcm0: SB DSP 4.16 on sbc0
 unknown0: Game at port 0x201 on isa0r
 
 Of course I'm not using the game port. :)

Just add "device joy0" to your config.

sbc0: Creative ViBRA16C at port 0x220-0x22f,0x330-0x331,0x388-0x38b ...
pcm0: SB DSP 4.13 on sbc0
joy0: Generic PnP Joystick at port 0x200-0x207 on isa0

The only use for it (for me) is to allow to move the mousecursor with
the joystick (X11). It´s nice to look into the face of WinXX-users while
you present the possibilities of a highly configurable system to them.

Bye,
Alexander.

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