Re: RFC: removal of share/doc/{papers,psd,smm,usd} in 2 months
On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 11:53 AM, Ulrich Spörlein u...@freebsd.org wrote: On Sun, 2012-10-21 at 10:40:45 +0200, Hans Ottevanger wrote: On 10/19/12 16:36, Ulrich Spörlein wrote: Hi all, those roff sources have been very naughty and will be removed from the tree by the end of the year. Most of those papers are severely out of date and provide no more use to the system. They can probably also be found online using a search engine of your choice. Could you be more specific as to why these sources have been very naughty? Should people feel strongly about them, we might be able to move them over to the doc repository. I strongly object this removal. As already pointed out by others, there are papers documenting vi/ex and RPC/XDR. These papers are practically the only docs available on these subjects, apart from the very terse man pages. There are also tutorials on e.g. Yacc and Lex, that probably are not that up-to-date but quite short and (at least for now) readily available. And there is also the IPC Tutorial. This may not all be documents that are immediately needed for operational purposes, but they do offer much needed background information, also of historical character, i.e. how and why things became as they are today. The handbook provides even more useful documentation and information, yet we don't have xsltproc in the base system, force everyone to compile it twice and then typeset all the documentation over and over again. They will therefore be moved to the doc repository were they probably should have been all along. How about converting them to SGML and integrating them into the Handbook (with the caveat that they are outdated, but retained for archival purposes)? Cheers, Uli -cpghost. -- Cordula's Web. http://www.cordula.ws/ ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: RFC: removal of share/doc/{papers,psd,smm,usd} in 2 months
On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 04:36:18PM +0200, Ulrich Sprlein wrote: those roff sources have been very naughty and will be removed from the tree by the end of the year. ... Should people feel strongly about them, we might be able to move them over to the doc repository. This does not seem a RFC -- this sounds more like you or a cabal already made the decision. -- -- David (obr...@freebsd.org) ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: RFC: removal of share/doc/{papers,psd,smm,usd} in 2 months
On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 02:53:11PM +0200, C. P. Ghost wrote: How about converting them to SGML and integrating them into the Handbook (with the caveat that they are outdated, but retained for archival purposes)? I find the Handbook to not look very well due to its SGML nature and one page per chapter layout. The roff generated docs are nice proper papers. Not to mention, they can be read without a network connection or GUI application. (sure there's lynx, but its formatting of the Handbook is even worse than a GUI browser) -- -- David (obr...@freebsd.org) ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: RFC: removal of share/doc/{papers,psd,smm,usd} in 2 months
On 22-10-2012 14:53, C. P. Ghost wrote: On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 11:53 AM, Ulrich Spörlein u...@freebsd.org wrote: On Sun, 2012-10-21 at 10:40:45 +0200, Hans Ottevanger wrote: On 10/19/12 16:36, Ulrich Spörlein wrote: Hi all, those roff sources have been very naughty and will be removed from the tree by the end of the year. Most of those papers are severely out of date and provide no more use to the system. They can probably also be found online using a search engine of your choice. Could you be more specific as to why these sources have been very naughty? Should people feel strongly about them, we might be able to move them over to the doc repository. I strongly object this removal. As already pointed out by others, there are papers documenting vi/ex and RPC/XDR. These papers are practically the only docs available on these subjects, apart from the very terse man pages. There are also tutorials on e.g. Yacc and Lex, that probably are not that up-to-date but quite short and (at least for now) readily available. And there is also the IPC Tutorial. This may not all be documents that are immediately needed for operational purposes, but they do offer much needed background information, also of historical character, i.e. how and why things became as they are today. The handbook provides even more useful documentation and information, yet we don't have xsltproc in the base system, force everyone to compile it twice and then typeset all the documentation over and over again. They will therefore be moved to the doc repository were they probably should have been all along. How about converting them to SGML and integrating them into the Handbook (with the caveat that they are outdated, but retained for archival purposes)? We recently removed several outdated articles from the doc repo, so spending time on converting outdated stuff to XML and adding them to the doc repo makes no sense at all. -- Joel ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: RFC: removal of share/doc/{papers,psd,smm,usd} in 2 months
those roff sources have been very naughty and will be removed from the tree by the end of the year. ... Should people feel strongly about them, we might be able to move them over to the doc repository. This does not seem a RFC -- this sounds more like you or a cabal already made the decision. you or a cabal already made the decision ... that sounds exactly like an RFC to me. :-) ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: RFC: removal of share/doc/{papers,psd,smm,usd} in 2 months
On 10/19/12 16:36, Ulrich Spörlein wrote: Hi all, those roff sources have been very naughty and will be removed from the tree by the end of the year. Most of those papers are severely out of date and provide no more use to the system. They can probably also be found online using a search engine of your choice. Could you be more specific as to why these sources have been very naughty? Should people feel strongly about them, we might be able to move them over to the doc repository. I strongly object this removal. As already pointed out by others, there are papers documenting vi/ex and RPC/XDR. These papers are practically the only docs available on these subjects, apart from the very terse man pages. There are also tutorials on e.g. Yacc and Lex, that probably are not that up-to-date but quite short and (at least for now) readily available. And there is also the IPC Tutorial. This may not all be documents that are immediately needed for operational purposes, but they do offer much needed background information, also of historical character, i.e. how and why things became as they are today. Regards, Hans Ottevanger ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: RFC: removal of share/doc/{papers,psd,smm,usd} in 2 months
On Sun, 2012-10-21 at 10:40:45 +0200, Hans Ottevanger wrote: On 10/19/12 16:36, Ulrich Spörlein wrote: Hi all, those roff sources have been very naughty and will be removed from the tree by the end of the year. Most of those papers are severely out of date and provide no more use to the system. They can probably also be found online using a search engine of your choice. Could you be more specific as to why these sources have been very naughty? Should people feel strongly about them, we might be able to move them over to the doc repository. I strongly object this removal. As already pointed out by others, there are papers documenting vi/ex and RPC/XDR. These papers are practically the only docs available on these subjects, apart from the very terse man pages. There are also tutorials on e.g. Yacc and Lex, that probably are not that up-to-date but quite short and (at least for now) readily available. And there is also the IPC Tutorial. This may not all be documents that are immediately needed for operational purposes, but they do offer much needed background information, also of historical character, i.e. how and why things became as they are today. The handbook provides even more useful documentation and information, yet we don't have xsltproc in the base system, force everyone to compile it twice and then typeset all the documentation over and over again. They will therefore be moved to the doc repository were they probably should have been all along. Cheers, Uli ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: RFC: removal of share/doc/{papers,psd,smm,usd} in 2 months
On Fri, 2012-10-19 at 12:14:28 -0400, Eitan Adler wrote: On 19 October 2012 10:36, Ulrich Spörlein u...@freebsd.org wrote: Should people feel strongly about them, we might be able to move them over to the doc repository. Moving them to the doc repo loses the history, for what gain? You mention that the roff sources are 'naughty'. Are they holding up some project? Replying to this only here: If you have a look at your calendar, you might get the reference :) They are holding up the removal of groff from the base system, which we can no longer update thanks to the project policy wrt. GPLv3. Uli ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: RFC: removal of share/doc/{papers,psd,smm,usd} in 2 months
On Fri, 2012-10-19 at 09:24:33 -0700, Gregory Shapiro wrote: Ulrich Sprlein wrote this message on Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 16:36 +0200: those roff sources have been very naughty and will be removed from the tree by the end of the year. Most of those papers are severely out of date and provide no more use to the system. They can probably also be found online using a search engine of your choice. As pointed out: On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 07:11:24PM +0300, Konstantin Belousov wrote: And e.g. sendmail documentation is fresh and updated together with sendmail imports, AFAIR. Konstantin is correct -- every sendmail import refreshes what is built by share/doc/smm/08.sendmailop/Makefile. That document (operations guide) should not be removed. Should people feel strongly about them, we might be able to move them over to the doc repository. That would cause a problem for contrib/ style imports like sendmail. In the base source tree, share/doc/smm/08.sendmailop/Makefile (for example) reads the documentation files from contrib/sendmail/doc/. Moving share/doc/smm/08.sendmailop/Makefile to a different repo would be an issue since the document source files are in the src repo. I don't think contrib packages should be imported into two trees. Which wouldn't have been a problem if we went with a single subversion repository, and not three, but oh well. While the current situation is nice wrt. sendmail, we have tons of information for system administration in the handbook, which is practically only available online. There's no reason sendmail should be special in this regard, but we'll have to figure something out on how to build this then ... Cheers, Uli ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: RFC: removal of share/doc/{papers,psd,smm,usd} in 2 months
Ulrich =?utf-8?B?U3DDtnJsZWlu?= wrote: On Fri, 2012-10-19 at 12:14:28 -0400, Eitan Adler wrote: On 19 October 2012 10:36, Ulrich Spörlein u...@freebsd.org wrote: Should people feel strongly about them, we might be able to move them over to the doc repository. Moving them to the doc repo loses the history, for what gain? You mention that the roff sources are 'naughty'. Are they holding up some project? Replying to this only here: If you have a look at your calendar, you might get the reference :) They are holding up the removal of groff from the base system, which we can no longer update thanks to the project policy wrt. GPLv3. It's awful damage from just not wanting to upgrade to a new groff with GPL3, to also throwing out older working groff plus text sources formatted by it. I use groff daily. Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultant, Munich http://berklix.com Reply below not above, like a play script. Indent old text with . Send plain text. Not: HTML, multipart/alternative, base64, quoted-printable. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: RFC: removal of share/doc/{papers,psd,smm,usd} in 2 months
On Sat, 2012-10-20 at 14:24:28 +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote: Ulrich =?utf-8?B?U3DDtnJsZWlu?= wrote: On Fri, 2012-10-19 at 12:14:28 -0400, Eitan Adler wrote: On 19 October 2012 10:36, Ulrich Spörlein u...@freebsd.org wrote: Should people feel strongly about them, we might be able to move them over to the doc repository. Moving them to the doc repo loses the history, for what gain? You mention that the roff sources are 'naughty'. Are they holding up some project? Replying to this only here: If you have a look at your calendar, you might get the reference :) They are holding up the removal of groff from the base system, which we can no longer update thanks to the project policy wrt. GPLv3. It's awful damage from just not wanting to upgrade to a new groff with GPL3, to also throwing out older working groff plus text sources formatted by it. I use groff daily. There'll always be textproc/groff. Cheers, Uli ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
RFC: removal of share/doc/{papers,psd,smm,usd} in 2 months
Hi all, those roff sources have been very naughty and will be removed from the tree by the end of the year. Most of those papers are severely out of date and provide no more use to the system. They can probably also be found online using a search engine of your choice. Should people feel strongly about them, we might be able to move them over to the doc repository. Thanks Uli ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: RFC: removal of share/doc/{papers,psd,smm,usd} in 2 months
On 19 Oct 2012, at 15:36, Ulrich Spörlein u...@freebsd.org wrote: Hi all, those roff sources have been very naughty and will be removed from the tree by the end of the year. Most of those papers are severely out of date and provide no more use to the system. They can probably also be found online using a search engine of your choice. Should people feel strongly about them, we might be able to move them over to the doc repository. I have looked at them every once in a while and I would move them to the doc repository under 'legacy' or 'archived'. - Mark ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: RFC: removal of share/doc/{papers,psd,smm,usd} in 2 months
On 10/19/2012 7:45 AM, Mark Blackman wrote: On 19 Oct 2012, at 15:36, Ulrich Spörlein u...@freebsd.org wrote: Hi all, those roff sources have been very naughty and will be removed from the tree by the end of the year. Most of those papers are severely out of date and provide no more use to the system. They can probably also be found online using a search engine of your choice. Should people feel strongly about them, we might be able to move them over to the doc repository. I have looked at them every once in a while and I would move them to the doc repository under 'legacy' or 'archived'. +1 ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: RFC: removal of share/doc/{papers,psd,smm,usd} in 2 months
Ulrich Sprlein wrote this message on Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 16:36 +0200: those roff sources have been very naughty and will be removed from the tree by the end of the year. Most of those papers are severely out of date and provide no more use to the system. They can probably also be found online using a search engine of your choice. Should people feel strongly about them, we might be able to move them over to the doc repository. One paper that should definately be saved is the vi docs. The man page is just a reference, but the paper on vi contains useful information that the man page doesn't cover... One good example is that the man page only has very short descriptions of all the options... The paper has a complete description of what the options do... I guess the real bug is that we've been installing these, but never referencing them, or telling users where they could find them... I.e. in man vi: ``An Introduction to Display Editing with Vi'', found in the ``UNIX User's Manual Supplementary Documents'' section of both the 4.3BSD and 4.4BSD manual sets. This document is the closest thing available to an introduction to the vi screen editor. refers to usd/12.vi/paper.ascii.gz, but no reader of the man page would know that... Same w/ the other docs in the same section.. I'm not sure many users would think to go man hier to see where they are located, or even know that they might be distributed w/ FreeBSD... I think the same thing applies foo memacros and others too... That the man page provides a short reference, and that these provide a more detailed description of what is happening... Are we installing doc by default? If we reference these papers in the man pages, and a user chooses not to install doc when they first install the system, how hard would it be for the user to install the docs? Can they run a simple command to get the docs installed? Maybe having a README in /usr/share/doc explaining that they are now part of the doc repo, and needs to be installed if they aren't part of the baes install.. Some papers I can see go, like psd/06.Clang... Heck, it doesn't even cover C89!?! :) I'm fine w/ cleaning it up, just not wholesale removal... Thanks. -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: RFC: removal of share/doc/{papers,psd,smm,usd} in 2 months
On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 08:55:42AM -0700, John-Mark Gurney wrote: Ulrich Sprlein wrote this message on Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 16:36 +0200: those roff sources have been very naughty and will be removed from the tree by the end of the year. Most of those papers are severely out of date and provide no more use to the system. They can probably also be found online using a search engine of your choice. Should people feel strongly about them, we might be able to move them over to the doc repository. One paper that should definately be saved is the vi docs. The man page is just a reference, but the paper on vi contains useful information that the man page doesn't cover... One good example is that the man page only has very short descriptions of all the options... The paper has a complete description of what the options do... I guess the real bug is that we've been installing these, but never referencing them, or telling users where they could find them... I.e. in man vi: ``An Introduction to Display Editing with Vi'', found in the ``UNIX User's Manual Supplementary Documents'' section of both the 4.3BSD and 4.4BSD manual sets. This document is the closest thing available to an introduction to the vi screen editor. refers to usd/12.vi/paper.ascii.gz, but no reader of the man page would know that... Same w/ the other docs in the same section.. I'm not sure many users would think to go man hier to see where they are located, or even know that they might be distributed w/ FreeBSD... I think the same thing applies foo memacros and others too... That the man page provides a short reference, and that these provide a more detailed description of what is happening... Are we installing doc by default? If we reference these papers in the man pages, and a user chooses not to install doc when they first install the system, how hard would it be for the user to install the docs? Can they run a simple command to get the docs installed? Maybe having a README in /usr/share/doc explaining that they are now part of the doc repo, and needs to be installed if they aren't part of the baes install.. Some papers I can see go, like psd/06.Clang... Heck, it doesn't even cover C89!?! :) I'm fine w/ cleaning it up, just not wholesale removal... And e.g. sendmail documentation is fresh and updated together with sendmail imports, AFAIR. fsck/ffs/quotas is more or less relevant even today. pgpQ9WqUhVWKq.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: RFC: removal of share/doc/{papers,psd,smm,usd} in 2 months
On 19 October 2012 10:36, Ulrich Spörlein u...@freebsd.org wrote: Should people feel strongly about them, we might be able to move them over to the doc repository. Moving them to the doc repo loses the history, for what gain? You mention that the roff sources are 'naughty'. Are they holding up some project? -- Eitan Adler ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: RFC: removal of share/doc/{papers,psd,smm,usd} in 2 months
Ulrich Sprlein wrote this message on Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 16:36 +0200: those roff sources have been very naughty and will be removed from the tree by the end of the year. Most of those papers are severely out of date and provide no more use to the system. They can probably also be found online using a search engine of your choice. As pointed out: On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 07:11:24PM +0300, Konstantin Belousov wrote: And e.g. sendmail documentation is fresh and updated together with sendmail imports, AFAIR. Konstantin is correct -- every sendmail import refreshes what is built by share/doc/smm/08.sendmailop/Makefile. That document (operations guide) should not be removed. Should people feel strongly about them, we might be able to move them over to the doc repository. That would cause a problem for contrib/ style imports like sendmail. In the base source tree, share/doc/smm/08.sendmailop/Makefile (for example) reads the documentation files from contrib/sendmail/doc/. Moving share/doc/smm/08.sendmailop/Makefile to a different repo would be an issue since the document source files are in the src repo. I don't think contrib packages should be imported into two trees. How are the roff sources naughty? If there are ancient/problematic ones, remove them, not everything. Worst case, I'll find another place to put the sendmailop Makefile and install the output under /usr/share/sendmail/. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: RFC: removal of share/doc/{papers,psd,smm,usd} in 2 months
On 19-10-2012 16:36, Ulrich Spörlein wrote: Hi all, those roff sources have been very naughty and will be removed from the tree by the end of the year. Most of those papers are severely out of date and provide no more use to the system. They can probably also be found online using a search engine of your choice. I definitely support this. -- Joel ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: RFC: removal of share/doc/{papers,psd,smm,usd} in 2 months
Ulrich Spörlein u...@freebsd.org wrote: Hi all, those roff sources have been very naughty and will be removed from the tree by the end of the year. Most of those papers are severely out of date and provide no more use to the system. They can probably also be found online using a search engine of your choice. Should people feel strongly about them, we might be able to move them over to the doc repository. I am using them quite often and I am very fond of having them locally (useful when working disconnected). I am very often reading the sendmail guide - it's good, up-to-date and explains many dark corners. Recently I found the XDR/RPC docs very useful, as I was porting some software using it and I didn't have too much knowledge about the subject. I used the ffs paper at least twice when fixing a very badly corrupted filesystem (had to use clri and similar commands to bring it back into shape). At those times, you don't want to google around. It is ok to remove stuff that is horribly obsolete and there is no chance to get it updated; but then it should be reviewed. //Marcin ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: RFC: removal of share/doc/{papers,psd,smm,usd} in 2 months
I guess the real bug is that we've been installing these, but never referencing them, or telling users where they could find them... I.e. in man vi: ``An Introduction to Display Editing with Vi'', found in the ``UNIX User's Manual Supplementary Documents'' section of both the 4.3BSD and 4.4BSD manual sets. This document is the closest thing available to an introduction to the vi screen editor. refers to usd/12.vi/paper.ascii.gz, but no reader of the man page would know that... Same w/ the other docs in the same section.. I'm not sure many users would think to go man hier to see where they are located, or even know that they might be distributed w/ FreeBSD... I think the same thing applies foo memacros and others too... That the man page provides a short reference, and that these provide a more detailed description of what is happening... Yes, I'd also prefer to Not see a load of deletes, some of those things are expected in Unix, (aka UCB ring binder manuals on my shelf). Better to give more useful references in man/ to point to exact full paths in /usr/share. It'd make FreeBSD easier for some, more readers could bring more fixes to keep them up to date. Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultant, Munich http://berklix.com Reply below not above, like a play script. Indent old text with . Send plain text. Not: HTML, multipart/alternative, base64, quoted-printable. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
