Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts
On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 4:54 PM Sulev-Madis Silber wrote: > > the discussion somehow diverted away from original idea... > > as i'm not politically correct person at all, i say that single report is > not enough... I'd second this report any time, if this is needed. There should be no whitewashing of Twitter hate speech like the one on http://phk.freebsd.dk/sagas/israel/ coming from freebsd.* domain. It has nothing to so with freedom of speech etc, it's simply harmful for the project. > it doesn't matter if legit or troll... > it's also quite wrong if case gets special attention just because offended > person adds that (s)he's discriminated because x If you read my other email on this topic https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2019-May/073464.html you might understand why "I hate X", with "X" a particular ethnic group, in FreeBSD context is not a good idea. > > i actually find it weird why the problem can't be directed to specific > person... why do we need to turn it into "against group" issue > > > On Monday, May 20, 2019, wrote: > > Am 2019-05-20 11:33, schrieb Igor Mozolevsky: > >> > >> So you think a discussion on whether it is appropriate that CoC Ctte > >> restricts freedom of expression is bikeshedding? > >> > >> Thank you for your valuable contribution! > > > > > > IMO, the CoC was not meant to solve, decide or even regulate discussion > about decades-old, very controversial geo-political problems. > > > > As such, I don't think it even applies here and the complaint should be > dismissed on these grounds. > > > > Of course, the FreeBSD project is free to boot developers from its ranks > more or less at will (not sure if you can sue your way back in) - but for > that a new CoC wouldn't have been needed to begin with ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" > > > ___ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts
the discussion somehow diverted away from original idea... as i'm not politically correct person at all, i say that single report is not enough... it doesn't matter if legit or troll... it's also quite wrong if case gets special attention just because offended person adds that (s)he's discriminated because x i actually find it weird why the problem can't be directed to specific person... why do we need to turn it into "against group" issue On Monday, May 20, 2019, wrote: > Am 2019-05-20 11:33, schrieb Igor Mozolevsky: >> >> So you think a discussion on whether it is appropriate that CoC Ctte >> restricts freedom of expression is bikeshedding? >> >> Thank you for your valuable contribution! > > > IMO, the CoC was not meant to solve, decide or even regulate discussion about decades-old, very controversial geo-political problems. > > As such, I don't think it even applies here and the complaint should be dismissed on these grounds. > > Of course, the FreeBSD project is free to boot developers from its ranks more or less at will (not sure if you can sue your way back in) - but for that a new CoC wouldn't have been needed to begin with ;-) > > > > > > > ___ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" > ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts
Am 2019-05-20 11:33, schrieb Igor Mozolevsky: So you think a discussion on whether it is appropriate that CoC Ctte restricts freedom of expression is bikeshedding? Thank you for your valuable contribution! IMO, the CoC was not meant to solve, decide or even regulate discussion about decades-old, very controversial geo-political problems. As such, I don't think it even applies here and the complaint should be dismissed on these grounds. Of course, the FreeBSD project is free to boot developers from its ranks more or less at will (not sure if you can sue your way back in) - but for that a new CoC wouldn't have been needed to begin with ;-) ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts
So you think a discussion on whether it is appropriate that CoC Ctte restricts freedom of expression is bikeshedding? Thank you for your valuable contribution! -- Igor M. On Mon, 20 May 2019 at 06:23, Daniel Braniss wrote: > > BIKE SHED SYNDROME? > > danny > PS: intentionally top posting :-) > > > On 19 May 2019, at 22:43, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > > > > On Sun, 19 May 2019 at 20:16, Warner Losh wrote: > >> > >> On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 11:34 AM Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > >>> > >>> On Sun, 19 May 2019 at 17:54, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > > Yes. There will always be limits, just like in real life. You can't tell > fire in a theater, and claim freedom of expression, for example. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> While that is an often cited example, it is rather tenuous as far as > >>> "freedom of expression" is concerned: yelling "Fire!" in a crowded > >>> theatre is by no measure an expression of one's views, thoughts, or > >>> opinions. At the same time, the invocation of a CoC ctte review is > >>> triggered by precisely the latter. > >> > >> > >> It is a difficult problem. The project needs to protect itself and its > >> members from harm. Sometimes, though rarely, that harm > >> comes from expressing ones views in a way that's so extreme > >> it causes real and lasting problems either for the cohesiveness > >> of the project, or its effect on the project's reputation is so > >> extreme, people can't separate the two and stop using it. There > >> needs to be a review mechanism for cases that are extreme. > > > > It's very difficult to subscribe to that view! The first problem you > > encounter is "what is an objectively extreme expression"--what is > > extreme to one, might be entirely common place to another. I'm sure > > whatever religious book one takes there is a passage that goes along > > the lines of "judge people by their deeds not by their words"... > > Secondly, the greatest legal minds in the US wrangled with that and > > came up with one answer: *ANY* expression is protected for otherwise > > it would not be "freedom." > > > > > >> At the same time, reviews are detrimental if they are triggered > >> for 'ordinary' conduct: they take time and energy away from > >> the project that could otherwise be spent on making things > >> better. The trick is to have any such review reflect the broad > >> consensus within the project of what's clearly out of bounds, > >> as well as having a fair and just response by the board in > >> the cases that require some action. > > > > > > Agreement by consensus is most dangerous, for, usually, the loudest > > wins because people with no backbone fall in-line; the best > > explanation of democracy I have ever heard was: "two wolves and a > > sheep deciding what to have for dinner!" ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts
On Mon, 20 May 2019 at 09:20, David Chisnall wrote: > > On 19 May 2019, at 20:43, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > > > > the best > > explanation of democracy I have ever heard was: "two wolves and a > > sheep deciding what to have for dinner!" > > If you believe that this quote in any way supports your argument, then I > would suggest that you work through the game theoretic implications of this > structure. > > (Hint: if the sheep can abstain, the sheep is never eaten and even without > abstention the sheep isn’t going to be eaten today) Wow, what an art of arbitrary context switching! If anything, you demonstrate utter failure of understanding how the herd-rule^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hdemocracy works: "majority wins;" for some contrived reason you seem to think that *everyone* needs to have voted... On top of that, if you want people to hear you, quit making opaque assertions, and muster some brain cells to set out an argument... Regardless, you, too, are attempting to (rather badly) reframe the original problem and divert discussion, and the original problem was whether or not CoC should restrict freedom of expression. Do you have anything to say on *this* topic? -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts
On 19 May 2019, at 20:43, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > > the best > explanation of democracy I have ever heard was: "two wolves and a > sheep deciding what to have for dinner!" If you believe that this quote in any way supports your argument, then I would suggest that you work through the game theoretic implications of this structure. (Hint: if the sheep can abstain, the sheep is never eaten and even without abstention the sheep isn’t going to be eaten today) David ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts
BIKE SHED SYNDROME? danny PS: intentionally top posting :-) > On 19 May 2019, at 22:43, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > > On Sun, 19 May 2019 at 20:16, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 11:34 AM Igor Mozolevsky wrote: >>> >>> On Sun, 19 May 2019 at 17:54, Warner Losh wrote: > > > Yes. There will always be limits, just like in real life. You can't tell fire in a theater, and claim freedom of expression, for example. >>> >>> >>> >>> While that is an often cited example, it is rather tenuous as far as >>> "freedom of expression" is concerned: yelling "Fire!" in a crowded >>> theatre is by no measure an expression of one's views, thoughts, or >>> opinions. At the same time, the invocation of a CoC ctte review is >>> triggered by precisely the latter. >> >> >> It is a difficult problem. The project needs to protect itself and its >> members from harm. Sometimes, though rarely, that harm >> comes from expressing ones views in a way that's so extreme >> it causes real and lasting problems either for the cohesiveness >> of the project, or its effect on the project's reputation is so >> extreme, people can't separate the two and stop using it. There >> needs to be a review mechanism for cases that are extreme. > > It's very difficult to subscribe to that view! The first problem you > encounter is "what is an objectively extreme expression"--what is > extreme to one, might be entirely common place to another. I'm sure > whatever religious book one takes there is a passage that goes along > the lines of "judge people by their deeds not by their words"... > Secondly, the greatest legal minds in the US wrangled with that and > came up with one answer: *ANY* expression is protected for otherwise > it would not be "freedom." > > >> At the same time, reviews are detrimental if they are triggered >> for 'ordinary' conduct: they take time and energy away from >> the project that could otherwise be spent on making things >> better. The trick is to have any such review reflect the broad >> consensus within the project of what's clearly out of bounds, >> as well as having a fair and just response by the board in >> the cases that require some action. > > > Agreement by consensus is most dangerous, for, usually, the loudest > wins because people with no backbone fall in-line; the best > explanation of democracy I have ever heard was: "two wolves and a > sheep deciding what to have for dinner!" > > > -- > Igor M. > ___ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts
On Sun, 19 May 2019 at 20:16, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 11:34 AM Igor Mozolevsky wrote: >> >> On Sun, 19 May 2019 at 17:54, Warner Losh wrote: >> > Yes. There will always be limits, just like in real life. You can't tell >> > fire in a theater, and claim freedom of expression, for example. >> >> >> >> While that is an often cited example, it is rather tenuous as far as >> "freedom of expression" is concerned: yelling "Fire!" in a crowded >> theatre is by no measure an expression of one's views, thoughts, or >> opinions. At the same time, the invocation of a CoC ctte review is >> triggered by precisely the latter. > > > It is a difficult problem. The project needs to protect itself and its > members from harm. Sometimes, though rarely, that harm > comes from expressing ones views in a way that's so extreme > it causes real and lasting problems either for the cohesiveness > of the project, or its effect on the project's reputation is so > extreme, people can't separate the two and stop using it. There > needs to be a review mechanism for cases that are extreme. It's very difficult to subscribe to that view! The first problem you encounter is "what is an objectively extreme expression"--what is extreme to one, might be entirely common place to another. I'm sure whatever religious book one takes there is a passage that goes along the lines of "judge people by their deeds not by their words"... Secondly, the greatest legal minds in the US wrangled with that and came up with one answer: *ANY* expression is protected for otherwise it would not be "freedom." >At the same time, reviews are detrimental if they are triggered > for 'ordinary' conduct: they take time and energy away from > the project that could otherwise be spent on making things > better. The trick is to have any such review reflect the broad > consensus within the project of what's clearly out of bounds, > as well as having a fair and just response by the board in > the cases that require some action. Agreement by consensus is most dangerous, for, usually, the loudest wins because people with no backbone fall in-line; the best explanation of democracy I have ever heard was: "two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner!" -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts
On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 11:34 AM Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > On Sun, 19 May 2019 at 17:54, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > On Sun, May 19, 2019, 10:25 AM Graham Perrin wrote: > > > > > I know, it's not appropriate to find fun in a serious discussion, but > > > these six words did make me chuckle: > > > > > > > … freedom of expression … End of discussion. > > > > > > No offence intended. I was speed-reading (waiting for a browser to > > > launch) and those six words leapt out at me :-) > > > > > > > Yes. There will always be limits, just like in real life. You can't tell > > fire in a theater, and claim freedom of expression, for example. > > > > While that is an often cited example, it is rather tenuous as far as > "freedom of expression" is concerned: yelling "Fire!" in a crowded > theatre is by no measure an expression of one's views, thoughts, or > opinions. At the same time, the invocation of a CoC ctte review is > triggered by precisely the latter. > It is a difficult problem. The project needs to protect itself and its members from harm. Sometimes, though rarely, that harm comes from expressing ones views in a way that's so extreme it causes real and lasting problems either for the cohesiveness of the project, or its effect on the project's reputation is so extreme, people can't separate the two and stop using it. There needs to be a review mechanism for cases that are extreme. At the same time, reviews are detrimental if they are triggered for 'ordinary' conduct: they take time and energy away from the project that could otherwise be spent on making things better. The trick is to have any such review reflect the broad consensus within the project of what's clearly out of bounds, as well as having a fair and just response by the board in the cases that require some action. Warner ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts
On Sun, May 19, 2019, 12:42 PM Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > On Sun, 19 May 2019 at 17:54, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > On Sun, May 19, 2019, 10:25 AM Graham Perrin wrote: > > > > > I know, it's not appropriate to find fun in a serious discussion, but > > > these six words did make me chuckle: > > > > > > > … freedom of expression … End of discussion. > > > > > > No offence intended. I was speed-reading (waiting for a browser to > > > launch) and those six words leapt out at me :-) > > > > > > > Yes. There will always be limits, just like in real life. You can't tell > > fire in a theater, and claim freedom of expression, for example. > > > > While that is an often cited example, it is rather tenuous as far as > "freedom of expression" is concerned: yelling "Fire!" in a crowded > theatre is by no measure an expression of one's views, thoughts, or > opinions. > Additionally, the ruling from which that quote came was used to suppress dissent and imprison people for just that. It is a very shaking foundation on which to launch a censorship campaign. The main group was sentenced for yelling fire when there really was one. > ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts
On Sun, 19 May 2019 at 17:54, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Sun, May 19, 2019, 10:25 AM Graham Perrin wrote: > > > I know, it's not appropriate to find fun in a serious discussion, but > > these six words did make me chuckle: > > > > > … freedom of expression … End of discussion. > > > > No offence intended. I was speed-reading (waiting for a browser to > > launch) and those six words leapt out at me :-) > > > > Yes. There will always be limits, just like in real life. You can't tell > fire in a theater, and claim freedom of expression, for example. While that is an often cited example, it is rather tenuous as far as "freedom of expression" is concerned: yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theatre is by no measure an expression of one's views, thoughts, or opinions. At the same time, the invocation of a CoC ctte review is triggered by precisely the latter. -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts
On Sun, 19 May 2019 at 17:27, Graham Perrin wrote: > I know, it's not appropriate to find fun in a serious discussion, but > these six words did make me chuckle: > > > … freedom of expression … End of discussion. > > No offence intended. I was speed-reading (waiting for a browser to > launch) and those six words leapt out at me :-) Context is everything: for example, repeatedly punching someone in the face is generally frowned upon, yet is lauded in boxing ;-) Best, -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts
On Sun, May 19, 2019, 10:25 AM Graham Perrin wrote: > I know, it's not appropriate to find fun in a serious discussion, but > these six words did make me chuckle: > > > … freedom of expression … End of discussion. > > No offence intended. I was speed-reading (waiting for a browser to > launch) and those six words leapt out at me :-) > Yes. There will always be limits, just like in real life. You can't tell fire in a theater, and claim freedom of expression, for example. FreeBSD is also an international group and while we share many norms, there are also surprising differences in them or in the extent to which people think our community norms should be policed in contexts only tangentially related to the project. It's really quite a thorny problem to craft a response to that is both meaningful and would enjoy the support of most of this diverse community in whose name the response is created. Warner Wishing you all a peaceful end to the weekend, > Graham > ___ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" > ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts
I know, it's not appropriate to find fun in a serious discussion, but these six words did make me chuckle: > … freedom of expression … End of discussion. No offence intended. I was speed-reading (waiting for a browser to launch) and those six words leapt out at me :-) Wishing you all a peaceful end to the weekend, Graham ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts
On Sat, May 18, 2019 at 4:12 AM Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > This is a typical example of reframing a problem in one side's > favourable terms. Freedom of expression is a fundamental freedom as > recognised by the United Nations, and is guaranteed by the highest > courts of any civilised society. Attacking one's freedom of expression > under whatever auspices makes one an EXCEPTIONALLY terrible person > that should go and re-thing their life purpose! End of discussion. > I'd go a bit further and say its also every individuals right to be exposed to such things, and make judgements for themselves. The voices who are the most different deserve the most protection. Without these, any "freedom of speech" is illusion. One wonders where these advocates of censorship will turn when the tool they helped create is eventually turned back on them. -- Adam ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts
On Sat, 18 May 2019 at 00:10, wrote: > > Igor et al, > > Instead of debating definitions of hate speech, free speech, and trying to > discover intent, I suggest we focus on right relationships. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A14THPoc4-4 This is a typical example of reframing a problem in one side's favourable terms. Freedom of expression is a fundamental freedom as recognised by the United Nations, and is guaranteed by the highest courts of any civilised society. Attacking one's freedom of expression under whatever auspices makes one an EXCEPTIONALLY terrible person that should go and re-thing their life purpose! End of discussion. -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts
Igor et al, Instead of debating definitions of hate speech, free speech, and trying to discover intent, I suggest we focus on right relationships. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A14THPoc4-4 Vester On Fri, May 17, 2019, at 12:08 AM, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > On Sun, 12 May 2019 at 18:28, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > > On Friday, 10 May 2019, FreeBSD Core Team Secretary > > wrote: > > > > > The FreeBSD Core Team is aware of recent controversial statements made > > > on social media by a FreeBSD developer. We, along with the Code of > > > Conduct review committee, are investigating the matter and will decide > > > what action to take. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > FreeBSD Core Team > > > > This seems to be a wanton violation of Article 19 of the Universal > > Declaration of Human Rights [1]. > > > > 1. https://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/ > > > More applicable if you think that UN declarations don't apply to you:- > https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/16pdf/15-1293_1o13.pdf > > > -- > Igor M. > ___ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A14THPoc4-4 ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts
On Sun, 12 May 2019 at 18:28, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > On Friday, 10 May 2019, FreeBSD Core Team Secretary > wrote: > > > The FreeBSD Core Team is aware of recent controversial statements made > > on social media by a FreeBSD developer. We, along with the Code of > > Conduct review committee, are investigating the matter and will decide > > what action to take. > > > > > -- > > FreeBSD Core Team > > This seems to be a wanton violation of Article 19 of the Universal > Declaration of Human Rights [1]. > > 1. https://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/ More applicable if you think that UN declarations don't apply to you:- https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/16pdf/15-1293_1o13.pdf -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts
On Friday, 10 May 2019, FreeBSD Core Team Secretary < core-secret...@freebsd.org> wrote: > The FreeBSD Core Team is aware of recent controversial statements made > on social media by a FreeBSD developer. We, along with the Code of > Conduct review committee, are investigating the matter and will decide > what action to take. > -- > FreeBSD Core Team This seems to be a wanton violation of Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights [1]. 1. https://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/ -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts
v...@researchbsd.org wrote: > On Sun, May 12, 2019, at 7:50 PM, Sulev-Madis Silber wrote: > > On Friday, May 10, 2019, FreeBSD Core Team Secretary < > > core-secret...@freebsd.org> wrote: > > > The FreeBSD Core Team is aware of recent controversial statements made > > > on social media by a FreeBSD developer. We, along with the Code of > > > Conduct review committee, are investigating the matter and will decide > > > what action to take. Both the Core Team and the FreeBSD Foundation > > > would like to make it clear that views shared by individuals represent > > > neither the Project nor the Foundation. > > > > > > -- > > > FreeBSD Core Team > > > > > > > > > is this a political party?! i thought it was developer team of certain > > specific area server operating system? > > > > first, i would like to know if this is a joke? because it must be! then, if > > it's not, what has said and by who? > > > FreeBSD Core Team and the FreeBSD Foundation can claim injury to reputation. > We are waiting to see if they claim injury. > > âTort: a wrongful act, other than breach of contract, that results in > injury to another partyâs person, property, dignity, or reputation, and > which is recognized by statue or common law as a legitimate basis for > liability.â (2014, July 30). Retrieved from > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQ6smN3lcnY > > Vester Not cc'd v...@researchbsd.org whois researchbsd.org : Creation Date: 2018-11-04T10:38:50.00Z Core is not a legal entity, just a mail list, can't sue. Foundation is in USA. Accused is not. USA law & morals not pre-emptive. Other countries have laws, courts & morals. Leave it to them & non tech lists. Orange haired person wrote lots of good code, an asset not to loose. Let's have current@ writeable only by subscribers as a mild troll deterent. Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, Consultant Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich Aachen Kent http://stolenvotes.uk Brexit ref. stole votes from 700,000 Brits in EU. Lies bought; Groups fined; 1.9 M young had no vote, 1.3 M old leavers died. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts
On Sun, May 12, 2019, at 7:50 PM, Sulev-Madis Silber wrote: > On Friday, May 10, 2019, FreeBSD Core Team Secretary < > core-secret...@freebsd.org> wrote: > > The FreeBSD Core Team is aware of recent controversial statements made > > on social media by a FreeBSD developer. We, along with the Code of > > Conduct review committee, are investigating the matter and will decide > > what action to take. Both the Core Team and the FreeBSD Foundation > > would like to make it clear that views shared by individuals represent > > neither the Project nor the Foundation. > > > > -- > > FreeBSD Core Team > > > > > is this a political party?! i thought it was developer team of certain > specific area server operating system? > > first, i would like to know if this is a joke? because it must be! then, if > it's not, what has said and by who? FreeBSD Core Team and the FreeBSD Foundation can claim injury to reputation. We are waiting to see if they claim injury. “Tort: a wrongful act, other than breach of contract, that results in injury to another party’s person, property, dignity, or reputation, and which is recognized by statue or common law as a legitimate basis for liability.” (2014, July 30). Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQ6smN3lcnY Vester ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts
On Friday, May 10, 2019, FreeBSD Core Team Secretary <
core-secret...@freebsd.org> wrote:
> The FreeBSD Core Team is aware of recent controversial statements made
> on social media by a FreeBSD developer. We, along with the Code of
> Conduct review committee, are investigating the matter and will decide
> what action to take. Both the Core Team and the FreeBSD Foundation
> would like to make it clear that views shared by individuals represent
> neither the Project nor the Foundation.
>
> --
> FreeBSD Core Team
>
is this a political party?! i thought it was developer team of certain
specific area server operating system?
first, i would like to know if this is a joke? because it must be! then, if
it's not, what has said and by who?
was it like "i hate women" or "i don't recommend fbsd for this purpose"?
anyway, i'm not surprised if developers act strange on *social* media, as
they often behave what would be called inappropriate at best... that's why
they write code and don't sing on eurovision song contest, become elected
as president of the united states, or play on the newest marvel action
movie as a lead actor...
i know this, as i often act bad... sometimes i tell people which kind
mental disorders i have been diagnosed with ("only" asperger's syndrome, if
you're curious) as i often have problems of not understanding certain
social rules, which can't be fixed in any way, doesn't matter if people
insult me on how i did it again and how come i can't ever learn... sorry, i
really can't! each time it's surprise to me what happened...
i've used fbsd since v4.6, and despite having written some code already, i
don't really see myself becoming something like "official developer" if it
gives me this "extra butt" i could be kicked into if needed
also, if hans reiser in one day comes and wants to do something, do we turn
him down with like "sorry, you can't write code here, you killed your
wife"? really?
i think freebsd has enough purely technical disagreements that we don't
really need anything ELSE into this mix (like, what did the dev tweet last
night)
On Friday, May 10, 2019, FreeBSD Core Team Secretary <
core-secret...@freebsd.org> wrote:
> The FreeBSD Core Team is aware of recent controversial statements made
> on social media by a FreeBSD developer. We, along with the Code of
> Conduct review committee, are investigating the matter and will decide
> what action to take. Both the Core Team and the FreeBSD Foundation
> would like to make it clear that views shared by individuals represent
> neither the Project nor the Foundation.
>
> --
> FreeBSD Core Team
>
___
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Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts
On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 03:16, Miroslav Lachman <000.f...@quip.cz> wrote: FreeBSD Core Team Secretary wrote on 2019/05/10 03:24: The FreeBSD Core Team is aware of recent controversial statements made on social media by a FreeBSD developer. We, along with the Code of Conduct review committee, are investigating the matter and will decide what action to take. Both the Core Team and the FreeBSD Foundation would like to make it clear that views shared by individuals represent neither the Project nor the Foundation. This is incredibly stupid and I am really sad to read things like this in the mailinglist of my favourite operating system (again). What will be next? Checking if developers do not smoke weed, drink alcohol or have sex without condom? https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope Speaking freely does not mean you are entitled to having your speech published by any forum or mailing list. Having rules and enforcing them is good, every project has the right to enforce their rules in their spaces. The only problem here is that the "report" was posted by a known troll, so hopefully the outcome of the investigation is a) nothing, and b) mail from known anonymous email domains no longer gets accepted into mailing lists. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts
On Sun, 12 May 2019 03:16:22 +0200 Miroslav Lachman <000.f...@quip.cz> wrote: > FreeBSD Core Team Secretary wrote on 2019/05/10 03:24: > > The FreeBSD Core Team is aware of recent controversial statements > > made on social media by a FreeBSD developer. We, along with the > > Code of Conduct review committee, are investigating the matter and > > will decide what action to take. Both the Core Team and the > > FreeBSD Foundation would like to make it clear that views shared by > > individuals represent neither the Project nor the Foundation. > > > This is incredibly stupid and I am really sad to read things like > this in the mailinglist of my favourite operating system (again). > What will be next? Checking if developers do not smoke weed, drink > alcohol or have sex without condom? > > "Be well, John Spartan" > > What's wrong with this world? > > I am from the country where totalitarian regime ruled for 40 years. I > was lucky to have seen freedom and lived freedom after the revolution > many years ago but now I am afraid that we have Thought Police even > in FreeBSD community. I never thought I'd live to fear again to speak > freely. +1 here, from another country which transitioned from 45 years of harsh totalitarian rule, through a brief period of relative freedom, to a more subtle form of a (thought) police superstate we happily live in today. Rest assured your worries about FreeBSD CoC enforcers are unfounded, though. Namely, last year several developers, including the one who is now being "investigated", orchestrated a lengthy rant on an internal ML targeting a population group based on race, sex, and sexual inclination, while invoking on EU convention on human rights protecting their right to do so. Neither the CoC comitte nor the Core team found that disturbing, probably as true believers to freedom of thought and speech. So, assuming they stick to their principles, I don't see why would they intervene now, particularly given that the developer has expressed his opinions outside of the project's MLs or other forums. Marko ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts
FreeBSD Core Team Secretary wrote on 2019/05/10 03:24: The FreeBSD Core Team is aware of recent controversial statements made on social media by a FreeBSD developer. We, along with the Code of Conduct review committee, are investigating the matter and will decide what action to take. Both the Core Team and the FreeBSD Foundation would like to make it clear that views shared by individuals represent neither the Project nor the Foundation. This is incredibly stupid and I am really sad to read things like this in the mailinglist of my favourite operating system (again). What will be next? Checking if developers do not smoke weed, drink alcohol or have sex without condom? "Be well, John Spartan" What's wrong with this world? I am from the country where totalitarian regime ruled for 40 years. I was lucky to have seen freedom and lived freedom after the revolution many years ago but now I am afraid that we have Thought Police even in FreeBSD community. I never thought I'd live to fear again to speak freely. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
