more on Re: Please review: bugfix for vinvalbuf()

2001-07-10 Thread Matt Dillon


:Hi,
:
:I've just tripped over an obviously long-standing (since about
:Jan. 1998) bug in vinvalbuf while looking into PR kern/26224. The
:problematic code looks like (on -CURRENT):
:
:   /*
:* Destroy the copy in the VM cache, too.
:*/
:   mtx_lock(&vp->v_interlock);
:   if (VOP_GETVOBJECT(vp, &object) == 0) {
:   vm_object_page_remove(object, 0, 0,
:   (flags & V_SAVE) ? TRUE : FALSE);
:   }
:   mtx_unlock(&vp->v_interlock);
:
:The locks seem to be needed for file systems that don't perform real
:locking (on -STABLE, they are simplelocks).
:This, however, is incorrect because vm_object_page_remove may sleep.
:I've attached a patch that passes the interlock to
:vm_object_page_remove, which in turn passes it to a modified version
:of vm_page_sleep, which unlocks it around the sleep.
:I think that this is correct, because the object should be in a valid
:state when we sleep (and all checks are reexecuted in that case).
:
:Since I'm not very experienced with vfs and vm stuff, I'd be glad if
:this patch could get some review. In particular, is the lock/unlock
:pair really still needed, and are there notable differeces in -STABLE
:(because the fix would need the be MFC'ed)?
:
:Thanks,
:   - thomas

Ok, I've looked at this more.  What is supposed to happen is that
the 'while (vp->v_numoutput) ...' code just above the section you
cited is supposed to prevent the deadlock.  The while code looks like
this:

while (vp->v_numoutput > 0) {
vp->v_flag |= VBWAIT;
tsleep(&vp->v_numoutput, PVM, "vnvlbv", 0);
}

However, as Ian points out in his followup, it doesn't work:

:...
:I've seen a related deadlock here in 4.x with NFS; vm_fault locks
:a page and then calls vput which aquires the v_interlock. This code
:in vinvalbuf locks the v_interlock first, and then vm_object_page_remove()
:locks the page. That's a simple lock-order reversal deadlock which I
:guess would still exist even with this patch.

It doesn't work for the simple reason that vm_fault isn't busying the
page for writing, it's busying it for reading, so v_numoutput will be
0.

I think the best solution is to change vinvalbuf's wait loop to
wait on vm_object->paging_in_progress instead of vp->v_numoutput,
or perhaps to wait for both conditions to be satisfied.

vm_object->paging_in_progress applies to reads and writes, while
vp->v_numoutput only applies to writes.

I know this isn't the most correct solution... there is still the
lock reversal if vm_object_remove_pages() were ever to sleep.  The
idea is that it won't sleep if there is no paging in progress because
nobody will have any of the object's pages locked.  I think it is
the best we can do for the moment.  There are several places in
vm/vm_object.c where the same assumption is made (testing against
vm_object->paging_in_progress, though, which works, not vp->v_numoutput).

-

Thomas, if you are interested this could be a little project for you.
See if you can code-up another while() loop to also wait for
the object's paging_in_progress count to become 0 in the vinvalbuf()
code.  Look in vm/vm_object.c for examples of how to construct such
a loop.  I will be happy to review and test whatever you come up with
and I'm sure Ian will too!

-Matt



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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Mike Smith

> > In the "default" case, it should attempt to obtain a DHCP lease,
> > and, failing that, ask the user to give it settings, or let
> > them do IPv4 stateless autoconfiguration.  Ad Hoc networking
> > should always "just work".
> 
> If anyone is taking a vote, I disagree. I do not want any system
> ever assuming anything about my network. Even Win checks with the
> user before enabling DHCP.

Er, you *are* kidding, right?  All modern Windows versions will try to 
get a lease long before the user has any say in the matter.  So does OS X.

-- 
... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his
rivals and unfortunately opponents also.  But not because people want
to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force
people to take different points of view.  [Dr. Fritz Todt]
   V I C T O R Y   N O T   V E N G E A N C E



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Re: TCP Window Size

2001-07-10 Thread Kenneth Wayne Culver

You made it way to big...

On 10 Jul 2001, Joseph Lekostaj wrote:

> 
> I've been trying to up my TCP window size from the default 16K and it's caused 
>nothing but problems.  From the info I've found so far, these are the sysctl i've 
>changed:
> 
> kern.ipc.maxsockbuffer=2097152
> net.inet.tcp.rfc1323=1
> net.inet.tcp.sendspace=524288
> net.inet.tcp.recvspace=524288
> 
> But if I do that, on boot I get all sorts of error messages about buffer space.  
>i.e.:
> 
> Jul  9 11:53:20 ccn64 portmap[180]: cannot create tcp socket: No buffer space 
>available
> Jul  9 11:53:21 ccn64 inetd[199]: shell/tcp: socket: No buffer space available
> Jul  9 11:53:21 ccn64 inetd[199]: login/tcp: socket: No buffer space available
> Jul  9 11:58:55 ccn64 RPC::PlClient[243]: Cannot connect: No buffer space available 
> Jul  9 11:58:55 ccn64 RPC::PlClient[246]: Cannot connect: No buffer space available
> 
> Is there anything I'm missing?
> 
> -- 
> Joe LeKostaj
> -
> Just don't create a file called -rf.
> 
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> 


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Re: vfs.vmiodirenable undocumented

2001-07-10 Thread Bruce A. Mah

If memory serves me right, "David Xu" wrote:
> but why hasn't a complete sysctl manual?
> I see OpenBSD has a better sysctl manual, our sysctl(8) is too bad,
> except the command usage info is useful, all left is garbage 
> information and waste disk space.

I'm sorry, I missed the part of your message containing the patches to 
fix this problem.

Bruce.




 PGP signature


Re: vfs.vmiodirenable undocumented

2001-07-10 Thread Alfred Perlstein

* David Xu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [010710 20:10] wrote:
> but why hasn't a complete sysctl manual?
> I see OpenBSD has a better sysctl manual, our sysctl(8) is too bad,
> except the command usage info is useful, all left is garbage 
> information and waste disk space.

David, I know you're busy writing the nextgen version of the FreeBSD
logging filesystem, but I'm hoping that you'll be able to fit in
an improved sysctl(8) into your work queue as well.

What do you say?

-- 
-Alfred Perlstein [[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Ok, who wrote this damn function called '??'?
And why do my programs keep crashing in it?

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Re: vfs.vmiodirenable undocumented

2001-07-10 Thread David Xu

but why hasn't a complete sysctl manual?
I see OpenBSD has a better sysctl manual, our sysctl(8) is too bad,
except the command usage info is useful, all left is garbage 
information and waste disk space.

Regards,
David Xu

- Original Message - 
From: Sheldon Hearn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: vfs.vmiodirenable undocumented 


> 
> 
> On Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:13:23 +0200, Sheldon Hearn wrote:
> 
> > Someone recently suggested that I tune vfs.vmiodirenable on a system
> > with lots of memory.  The CVS commit logs and the source tell me
> > absolutely nothing about what this tunable does.
> > 
> > Is anyone in a position to document it?
> 
> Someone mailed me privately and pointed out that the sysctl is
> documented in tuning(7).
> 
> Thanks,
> Sheldon.
> 
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B/W quickcam..(anyone got the program?)

2001-07-10 Thread Julian ELischer

I had a copy of Xfqcam that used to run this B/W qcam I have sitting
here
but it seems that I must have got it from somewher estrange because I
cannot
find it anywhere these days...

anyone still have a copy of it?
(I think it was left on my on=ld machine at whistle when I left :-(  )

julian

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[ANNOUNCE] SPY-1.1 - syscall monitoring kernel module

2001-07-10 Thread Andrzej Bialecki

Hi,

I just uploaded an updated version of the SPY, which is a kernel module
that allows to selectively monitor and/or block execution of any
syscalls. This version works on relatively current -CURRENT (after the
struct proc changes). You can get it from:

http://people.freebsd.org/~abial

See also the detailed description there.

I should be able also to provide a version for 4-STABLE soon, depending on
my time and availability of the machine...

Enjoy!

-- 

Andrzej

// 
// Andrzej Bialecki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Chief System Architect
// WebGiro AB, Sweden (http://www.webgiro.com)
// 
// <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> FreeBSD developer (http://www.freebsd.org)


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Re: (a bit offtopic) KDE2.1.1 install

2001-07-10 Thread Will Andrews

[ redirected to -questions ]

On Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 02:27:35PM -0500, Lakey, Jeremy # IHTUL 
([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> I'm running a p233 with 128mgs of ram, and KDE 2.1.1 install has been
> compiling ALL MORNING!
>  
> Is this unusual?



No.  It takes 6 hours on my dual Pentium III 600MHz with 640MB
RAM to install KDE 2.1.2[*] (from ports/x11/kde2 meta-port).

I would imagine on your system it will take 12-18 hours.  Use the
packages if you don't like this.  OR.. use something lighter on
the system like Window Maker... 8)



-- 
wca
[*] 2.1.2 is just a security release for kdelibs only.
Nevertheless, it's what's currently in ports.

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Please review: bugfix for vinvalbuf()

2001-07-10 Thread Thomas Moestl

Hi,

I've just tripped over an obviously long-standing (since about
Jan. 1998) bug in vinvalbuf while looking into PR kern/26224. The
problematic code looks like (on -CURRENT):

/*
 * Destroy the copy in the VM cache, too.
 */
mtx_lock(&vp->v_interlock);
if (VOP_GETVOBJECT(vp, &object) == 0) {
vm_object_page_remove(object, 0, 0,
(flags & V_SAVE) ? TRUE : FALSE);
}
mtx_unlock(&vp->v_interlock);

The locks seem to be needed for file systems that don't perform real
locking (on -STABLE, they are simplelocks).
This, however, is incorrect because vm_object_page_remove may sleep.
I've attached a patch that passes the interlock to
vm_object_page_remove, which in turn passes it to a modified version
of vm_page_sleep, which unlocks it around the sleep.
I think that this is correct, because the object should be in a valid
state when we sleep (and all checks are reexecuted in that case).

Since I'm not very experienced with vfs and vm stuff, I'd be glad if
this patch could get some review. In particular, is the lock/unlock
pair really still needed, and are there notable differeces in -STABLE
(because the fix would need the be MFC'ed)?

Thanks,
- thomas


Index: kern/vfs_subr.c
===
RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/sys/kern/vfs_subr.c,v
retrieving revision 1.315
diff -u -r1.315 vfs_subr.c
--- kern/vfs_subr.c 2001/07/04 16:20:13 1.315
+++ kern/vfs_subr.c 2001/07/10 19:45:41
@@ -800,7 +800,7 @@
mtx_lock(&vp->v_interlock);
if (VOP_GETVOBJECT(vp, &object) == 0) {
vm_object_page_remove(object, 0, 0,
-   (flags & V_SAVE) ? TRUE : FALSE);
+   (flags & V_SAVE) ? TRUE : FALSE, &vp->v_interlock);
}
mtx_unlock(&vp->v_interlock);
 
Index: vm/vm_map.c
===
RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/sys/vm/vm_map.c,v
retrieving revision 1.206
diff -u -r1.206 vm_map.c
--- vm/vm_map.c 2001/07/04 20:15:16 1.206
+++ vm/vm_map.c 2001/07/10 20:02:41
@@ -1875,7 +1875,7 @@
vm_object_page_remove(object,
OFF_TO_IDX(offset),
OFF_TO_IDX(offset + size + PAGE_MASK),
-   FALSE);
+   FALSE, NULL);
}
VOP_UNLOCK(object->handle, 0, curproc);
vm_object_deallocate(object);
@@ -1991,7 +1991,7 @@
offidxend = offidxstart + count;
 
if ((object == kernel_object) || (object == kmem_object)) {
-   vm_object_page_remove(object, offidxstart, offidxend, FALSE);
+   vm_object_page_remove(object, offidxstart, offidxend, FALSE, 
+NULL);
} else {
pmap_remove(map->pmap, s, e);
if (object != NULL &&
@@ -1999,7 +1999,7 @@
(object->flags & (OBJ_NOSPLIT|OBJ_ONEMAPPING)) == 
OBJ_ONEMAPPING &&
(object->type == OBJT_DEFAULT || object->type == 
OBJT_SWAP)) {
vm_object_collapse(object);
-   vm_object_page_remove(object, offidxstart, offidxend, 
FALSE);
+   vm_object_page_remove(object, offidxstart, offidxend, 
+FALSE, NULL);
if (object->type == OBJT_SWAP) {
swap_pager_freespace(object, offidxstart, 
count);
}
@@ -2994,7 +2994,7 @@
/*
 * Remove unneeded old pages
 */
-   vm_object_page_remove(first_object, 0, 0, 0);
+   vm_object_page_remove(first_object, 0, 0, 0, NULL);
 
/*
 * Invalidate swap space
Index: vm/vm_object.c
===
RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/sys/vm/vm_object.c,v
retrieving revision 1.196
diff -u -r1.196 vm_object.c
--- vm/vm_object.c  2001/07/04 20:15:16 1.196
+++ vm/vm_object.c  2001/07/10 20:03:23
@@ -1438,7 +1438,7 @@
  * The object must be locked.
  */
 void
-vm_object_page_remove(vm_object_t object, vm_pindex_t start, vm_pindex_t end, 
boolean_t clean_only)
+vm_object_page_remove(vm_object_t object, vm_pindex_t start, vm_pindex_t end, 
+boolean_t clean_only, struct mtx *interlk)
 {
vm_page_t p, next;
unsigned int size;
@@ -1478,7 +1478,7 @@
 * interrupt -- minimize the spl transitions
 */
 
-   if (vm_page_sleep_busy(p, TRUE, "vmopar"))
+  

Re: TCP Window Size

2001-07-10 Thread Drew Eckhardt

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>I'd personally suggest just tuning net.inet.tcp.*space to 64k at most.

1.  Depends on your application.  To avoid TCP window size related slowdowns,
it needs to be at least as large as the bandwidth delay product (multiply
bandwidth by RTT).

2.  net.inet.tcp.*space affects the _defaults_.  Changing them means that
you'll use huge amounts of memory even in places where it doesn't matter
(like ftp control connections).

Instead, use setsockopt with SO_SNDBUF and SO_RCVBUF where appropriate.

-- 
http://www.poohsticks.org/drew/";>Home Page
For those who do, no explanation is necessary.  
For those who don't, no explanation is possible.

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Re: Suggestions for sysinstall / disklabel

2001-07-10 Thread Jordan Hubbard

From: Garance A Drosihn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Suggestions for sysinstall / disklabel
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 17:28:26 -0400

> However, there is some kind of column-counting mistake there,
> such that if you are creating more than one columns-worth of
> partitions, then turning on the softupdates flag for a partition
> in the second column writes past column 80 on the screen (which
> is to say, it writes on the first character of the following row).

This was fixed post-4.3.

- jordan

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Gilbert Gong

I'm also interested in helping out with the installer.

I have also just read Jordan's message (at
http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=77877+0+archive/2000/freebsd-ha
ckers/2917.freebsd-hackers
as referenced  in another email)

and here is how I see it.  #2 cannot happen without #1 happening first.
Jordan outlines a number of underlying problems which simply writing a new
installer, in terms of just a new frontend to what sysinstall currently
does, cannot solve.  Many of the underlying structures and mechanisms for
distribution and packaging must be modified to resolve those problems.
These problems are generally the same as the ones other people are bringing
up, or are needed changes before other types of changes can be made (though
some, such as adding "partition magic" style partition sizing could be added
without these underlying changes).

I think, from a "will be accepted by the community" perspective, what has to
happen is the old installer must evolve, little by little, into something
which is more modular and can be easily replaced or interfaced into by other
alternate installers.  As it becomes more modular, it will be easier to
change some of the underlying mechanisms.  As other people have said, the
installer is the first exposure of new people to FreeBSD.  That means it is
really important, and therefore a lot of us will care about what happens to
it.  Major overhauls are not going to go over easily (think bikeshed, only
instead of what color to paint the bikeshed, we are discussing what color to
paint the large centerpiece at the entrance to the world headquarters).

Gilbert

- Original Message -
From: "Bill Moran" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Garance A Drosihn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Wes Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral


> *sigh* this has gotten way off track somehow. Looking back, I'm
> probably primarily to blame.
>
> The fact is: *I* *AM* interested in replacing or helping out with
> an effort to replace/improve sysinstall. However, there are two
> critical things I must understand if I am to do anything truely
> productive along this line:
>
> 1. Should sysinstall be fixed or replaced.
> 2. What needs done to fix or improve sysinstall.
>
> Now, I've gotten several excellent suggestions with regard to #2.
> If any of my replies to these seem like arguments, then that's
> just a part of my inability to communicate, as what I'm trying to
> do is *understand* what exactly needs done. If I only change what
> *I* want, it might not be terribly useful overall (as can be seen
> by my divergence from other's opinions) You make an excellent point
> of this in your second paragraph below.
>
> What I was really interested in getting answered was #1, as it
> was suggested by Terry Lambert that "sysinstall must go" (don't
> remember his exact words) I have no desire to start repairing
> something if a complete replacement is in order.
>
> The fact of the matter is that I don't understand the problem
> enough to fix it. It may seem strange to people that I'm more
> interested in understanding this problem than in fixing problems
> that I already understand. Well, I always have been a little
> strange ...
>
> Personally, I would appreciate it if folks would *not* back
> off from this conversation, since I'm acutally beginning to
> understand, thanks to the tireless efforts of many who already
> understand.
>
> -Bill
>
> Garance A Drosihn wrote:
> > The main problem I have seen with this discussion is that the
> > current partitioning program works well for you (Bill).  Every
> > time anyone suggests something, you reply that it seems frivolous
> > to you, or that there is no other installer that you personally
> > have used which does a better job.  We're not trying to suggest
> > things to make partitioning easier for YOU, we're suggesting
> > things which would make it nicer/easier/friendlier for US, or
> > people that we deal with.
> >
> > Pretty much every time I have used the disk-partitioning software
> > for freebsd I have hated it.  The *reason* I hate it changes from
> > run-to-run, but I've never been particularly happy with it.  It
> > is clear that you've had better luck with it than I have.  I think
> > I'll just leave it at that, instead of trying to interest you in
> > making some changes to it.  I do not mean this as a sarcastic jab,
> > I am just making the observation that the current setup seems to
> > work well for you, and thus you're not going to be as interested
> > in changing it as we might have hoped.
>
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>
>


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Re: TCP Window Size

2001-07-10 Thread Bill Fumerola

On Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 05:00:50PM -0500, Bill Fumerola wrote:

> Good christ thats a lot of memory per socket. kern.ipc.maxsockets is
> also fairly important to know here too. Nothing is going to prevent
> the above values from getting out of hand, short of a huge amount of
> memory dedicated to sockets.. see below...

ignore this, I was mistaken at what time the memory gets allocated

-- 
Bill Fumerola - security yahoo / Yahoo! inc.
  - [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED]




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Re: TCP Window Size

2001-07-10 Thread Bill Fumerola

On Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:54:41PM -0500, Joseph Lekostaj wrote:
> 
> I've been trying to up my TCP window size from the default 16K and it's caused 
>nothing but problems.  From the info I've found so far, these are the sysctl i've 
>changed:
> 
> kern.ipc.maxsockbuffer=2097152
> net.inet.tcp.rfc1323=1
> net.inet.tcp.sendspace=524288
> net.inet.tcp.recvspace=524288

Good christ thats a lot of memory per socket. kern.ipc.maxsockets is
also fairly important to know here too. Nothing is going to prevent
the above values from getting out of hand, short of a huge amount of
memory dedicated to sockets.. see below...

> But if I do that, on boot I get all sorts of error messages about buffer space.  
>i.e.:
> 
> Jul  9 11:53:20 ccn64 portmap[180]: cannot create tcp socket: No buffer space 
>available
> Jul  9 11:53:21 ccn64 inetd[199]: shell/tcp: socket: No buffer space available
> Jul  9 11:53:21 ccn64 inetd[199]: login/tcp: socket: No buffer space available
> Jul  9 11:58:55 ccn64 RPC::PlClient[243]: Cannot connect: No buffer space available 
> Jul  9 11:58:55 ccn64 RPC::PlClient[246]: Cannot connect: No buffer space available
> 
> Is there anything I'm missing?

The memory to support blowing 524k of memory per socket? As I recall
this memory is eaten as the sockets are created.

If you really think you need that much memory (you don't), you're going
to need to increase your socket memory to a lot more then 2097152

I'd personally suggest just tuning net.inet.tcp.*space to 64k at most.

-- 
Bill Fumerola - security yahoo / Yahoo! inc.
  - [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED]




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Re: Suggestions for sysinstall / disklabel

2001-07-10 Thread Garance A Drosihn

At 2:29 PM -0700 7/10/01, David O'Brien wrote:
>On Tue, Jul 10, 2001, Bill Moran wrote:
>  > Now, I've never used partition magic, but I (personally) find
>  > the FreeBSD partition program in sysinstall to be the easiest
>  > one I've ever used.
>  > What should be changed to make it easier?
>
>Maybe not "easier" but better:
>
>+ Allow one to specify the partition letter, than assumeing `e'.
>+ Allow one to specify the ordering of partitions that will be written.
>   Alpha users keep getting bit in the ass because sysinstall orders the
>   swap partition at the begining of the disk vs. after /.  One cannot
>   tell which order the partitions will be written to disk.

Hmm.  Is it a different program on Alpha than i386?  On i386, the
order on the disk seems to always be the order they were created
in disklabel (which might or might not match the order of the
partition letters...).

On i386, I know know the program seems to want to futz with the
partition letters based on the name you give to the partition, which
is sometimes annoying.  Ie, it "wants" the root partition to be
partition 'a', and swap to be partition 'b', but there are times
when that's not what *I* want (for one reason or another).  I
sometimes create partitions with the wrong name (such as '/') so
I can get the partition letter I want, and then rename the
partition after it has assigned the letter.

It may just be the weird way I operate, in that I create multiple
'fdisk partitions' which will hold freebsd "slices" (so I can
boot between freebsd-stable and freebsd-current).  Or I'll use
sysinstall to repartition one disk while up-and-running on a
different disk.

-- 
Garance Alistair Drosehn=   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Senior Systems Programmer   or  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Rensselaer Polytechnic Instituteor  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Can someone verify this?

2001-07-10 Thread Thomas Moestl

On Sat, 2001/07/07 at 18:57:15 -0400, Paul Halliday wrote:
> FreeBSD dissent.p450.box 4.3-RC FreeBSD 4.3-RC #3: Sun Jun 10 22:27:47
> EDT 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/usr/src/sys/compile/workstation 
> i386
> 
> FreeBSD useless.dell.box 4.3-STABLE FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE #6: Fri Jul  6
> 18:57:08 EDT 2001
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/usr/src/sys/compile/useless  i386
> 
> mount /dev/acd0c /cdrom > should obviously fail, yet causes...
> 
> panic: vm -fault  on nofault entry, addr: c3e1e000
> 
> reboot.

> any ideas?

If it was an audio CD you were trying to mount: this is a known
problem. The attached patch fixes it for me by disallowing reading of
partial blocks; this could also be fixed by setting the buffer size
different from the transfer size in such a case.

- thomas


Index: dev/ata/atapi-cd.c
===
RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/sys/dev/ata/atapi-cd.c,v
retrieving revision 1.48.2.10
diff -u -r1.48.2.10 atapi-cd.c
--- dev/ata/atapi-cd.c  2001/02/25 21:35:20 1.48.2.10
+++ dev/ata/atapi-cd.c  2001/07/09 21:48:58
@@ -1126,9 +1126,7 @@
 /* reject all queued entries if media changed */
 if (cdp->atp->flags & ATAPI_F_MEDIA_CHANGED) {
bp->b_error = EIO;
-   bp->b_flags |= B_ERROR;
-   biodone(bp);
-   return;
+   goto failure;
 }
 
 bzero(ccb, sizeof(ccb));
@@ -1149,7 +1147,11 @@
lastlba = cdp->info.volsize;
 }
 
-count = (bp->b_bcount + (blocksize - 1)) / blocksize;
+if (bp->b_bcount % blocksize != 0) {
+   bp->b_error = EINVAL;
+   goto failure;
+}
+count = bp->b_bcount / blocksize;
 
 if (bp->b_flags & B_READ) {
/* if transfer goes beyond range adjust it to be within limits */
@@ -1191,6 +1193,11 @@
 
 atapi_queue_cmd(cdp->atp, ccb, bp->b_data, count * blocksize,
bp->b_flags & B_READ ? ATPR_F_READ : 0, 30, acd_done,bp);
+return;
+
+failure:
+bp->b_flags |= B_ERROR;
+biodone(bp);
 }
 
 static int 



Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Wes Peters

Laurence Berland wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, Wes Peters wrote:
> 
> > Laurence Berland wrote:
> > > 
> > > On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, Rasputin wrote:
> > > 
> > > > I may be low on caffeine, but I don't see how breaking up the base system
> > > > into packages makes it any easier to upgrade than using cvsup?
> > > 
> > > I think the discussion is Re: binary upgrades, like putting in the CD and
> > > hitting that upgrade option, which right now doesn't quite get you there
> > > afaik.
> > 
> > I don't think the goal was to make the system easier to upgrade, but rather
> > easier to subset.  Do we really NEED to have sendmail on every DNS server
> > we put together?
> 
> Also very true.  But in the context of upgrades, which is what Rasputin
> was coming from, it's a binary upgrade issue, not a source one, which is
> why cvsup isn't a fair comparison.  I definitely think it'd be nice to
> have things like sendmail somewhat more separate.

Right, but updates were NOT the driving REASON for removing chunks
of FreeBSD to ports.  Of course this change will have ramifications
for updates.  The primary change, from my viewpoint, is that I
don't have to wait to update sendmail on my DNS servers, because
sendmail won't be part of the default system anymore.  Yippee!

--
"Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?"

Wes Peters Softweyr LLC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://softweyr.com/

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Garance A Drosihn

At 2:06 PM -0700 7/10/01, Jordan Hubbard wrote:
>From: Garance A Drosihn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral
>Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:06:54 -0400
>
>  > I do wish I could find someone who was interested in making
>  > changes to it, though.
>
>Why can't we just nominate you and be done with it? :)

I'm still slogging my way thru lpr/lpd code, and I dare say there's
enough crappy code in there to keep me occupied for quite some time...

-- 
Garance Alistair Drosehn=   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Senior Systems Programmer   or  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Rensselaer Polytechnic Instituteor  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread freebsd-hackers

On Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 09:49:18AM -0400, Bill Moran wrote:
> Now, I've never used partition magic, but I (personally) find the
> FreeBSD
> partition program in sysinstall to be the easiest one I've ever used.
> What should be changed to make it easier?

Maybe not "easier" but better:

+ Allow one to specify the partition letter, than assumeing `e'.
+ Allow one to specify the ordering of partitions that will be written.
  Alpha users keep getting bit in the ass because sysinstall orders the
  swap partition at the begining of the disk vs. after /.  One cannot
  tell which order the partitions will be written to disk.

-- 
-- David  ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

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Re: Suggestions for sysinstall / disklabel

2001-07-10 Thread Garance A Drosihn

coming from thread "Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral"...

At 4:30 PM -0400 7/10/01, Bill Moran wrote:
>*sigh* this has gotten way off track somehow. Looking back, I'm
>probably primarily to blame.
>
>The fact is: *I* *AM* interested in replacing or helping out with
>an effort to replace/improve sysinstall. However, there are two
>critical things I must understand if I am to do anything truely
>productive along this line:
>
>1. Should sysinstall be fixed or replaced.
>2. What needs done to fix or improve sysinstall.
>
>Now, I've gotten several excellent suggestions with regard to #2.
>If any of my replies to these seem like arguments, then that's
>just a part of my inability to communicate, as what I'm trying to
>do is *understand* what exactly needs done. If I only change what
>*I* want, it might not be terribly useful overall (as can be seen
>by my divergence from other's opinions) You make an excellent point
>of this in your second paragraph below.
>
>What I was really interested in getting answered was #1, as it
>was suggested by Terry Lambert that "sysinstall must go" (don't
>remember his exact words) I have no desire to start repairing
>something if a complete replacement is in order.
>
>The fact of the matter is that I don't understand the problem
>enough to fix it. It may seem strange to people that I'm more
>interested in understanding this problem than in fixing problems
>that I already understand. Well, I always have been a little
>strange ...
>
>Personally, I would appreciate it if folks would *not* back
>off from this conversation, since I'm actually beginning to
>understand, thanks to the tireless efforts of many who already
>understand.

I am inclined to say "replace sysinstall", just because it has
so many quirks in it's user-interface which have annoyed me.
On the other hand, I do want something a lot like sysinstall,
and maybe if enough of the little things got fixed up then I
might not be so eager to have it completely replaced.

Part of the install process is the disk-partitioning step, which
is more of an issue with fdisk and disklabel than sysinstall.
Every time I go to use those I end up hitting something I don't
particularly like, although the specifics of what I dislike are
different each time.  Eventually I get it to do exactly what I
want it to do, at which point I try to put the whole experience
out of my mind...   :-)

The one (silly, trivial) thing that I *like* about Openbsd's
disk-partitioning setup is that I say "I want about 50 meg for
this partition", and it automatically rounds up to the nearest
"even boundary".  It figures out the next-largest number of
sectors such that no disk space is wasted.  Yes, I realize it's
a 20-gig disk now, but it still annoys me when I see "800 sectors
unusable" for each partition I create.

I like the recent change so the partition-size can be displayed
in sectors vs Kilobytes vs Megabytes (we may soon have to add
Gigabytes to that!).  It would also be nice to have percentage
as display option there.

I create several different partitions, and inevitably I get to
the end and realize some partition is too large or too small.
What I'd like to do at that point is say "just take partition
, and increase it by 20 meg", and have it move all the
partitions after it to match that.  Instead, I end up having to
delete all the partitions down to the one I want to change, and
then recreate them all.

I very much like the recent change so you can turn on the
softupdates flag for a partition when you are creating it.
However, there is some kind of column-counting mistake there,
such that if you are creating more than one columns-worth of
partitions, then turning on the softupdates flag for a partition
in the second column writes past column 80 on the screen (which
is to say, it writes on the first character of the following row).

I know there are other things which have annoyed me when I've
gone to use the disk editor, but I'm afraid I have not written
them down anywhere, and those are the only things that I remember
off the top of my head.
-- 
Garance Alistair Drosehn=   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Senior Systems Programmer   or  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Rensselaer Polytechnic Instituteor  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Uwe Pierau


Bill Moran wrote in list.freebsd-hackers:
# [...]
# 1. Should sysinstall be fixed or replaced.

Read the fine manual. ;) sysinstall(8):

>BUGS
> This utility is a prototype which lasted several years past its expira­
> tion date and is greatly in need of death.

# 2. What needs done to fix or improve sysinstall.

See 1.  And if you didn't already know Jordans "Installation and 
package tools document, version 1.0" you should read it also:

http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=77877+0+archive/2000/freebsd-hackers/2917.freebsd-hackers
 

HTH,
Uwe

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2001-07-10 Thread daemon

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freebsd-hackers-digest Tuesday, July 10 2001 Volume 05 : Number 175



In this issue:
Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral
wx0 jumbo frame support explosions..
Re: wx0 jumbo frame support explosions..
Re: best way to migrate to a new disk

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Re: Athlon MP / AMD 760MP Chipset (Athlon SMP question)

2001-07-10 Thread Nathan Vidican

Eclipse manufacturs 32-way xeon boxes too. http://www.eclipse.com/, recently
bought out by Data General, (http://www.dg.com/, used to be the
manufacturers of the Aviion/Eclipse mainframe machines... and their
proprietory O/S 'unicos'. They still sell/manufacture the numa based 32-way
xeon boxes, though they've stopped supporting the legacy mainframes.


Nathan Vidican
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://Nathan.Vidican.com/

- Original Message -
From: "Wilko Bulte" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Josh M Osborne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: Athlon MP / AMD 760MP Chipset (Athlon SMP question)


> On Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:25:13PM -0400, Josh M Osborne wrote:
> > On Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 12:42:12PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > [...]
> > > > Instead, AMD implemented the Intel APIC specification;
> > > > I'm not sure if they did it by licensing the patent
> > > > (Intel had a patent on the APIC design), or if it's
> > > > just been long enough for it to come off patent
> > >
> > > The Athlon uses the Alpha's ev6 spec, not the intel spec.
>
> > That may explain why you can buy Alpha systems with 40+ CPUs, and
>
> 32 max, on Wildfire.
>
> > Intel XENON boxes with no more then eight (or is it four?).  It is
>
> Eight, eg on a Compaq Proliant 8000. Or 32 for the Unisys (IIRC) CMP
> machines.
>
> --
> |   / o / /  _   Arnhem, The Netherlandsemail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte "Youth is not a time in life, it is a state of mind"
>



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Re: Inconsistency with wchar_t / wint_t in current

2001-07-10 Thread David O'Brien

On Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 05:40:27PM +0200, Carlo Dapor wrote:
> I stumbled over an inconsistency with the data types wchar_t and wint_t.
> My machine is a FreeBSD-5.0 current as of July 8th, 2001.

I thought these were fixed.

I'll look into it.
 
-- 
-- David  ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Jordan Hubbard

From: Garance A Drosihn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:06:54 -0400

> I do wish I could find someone who was interested in making changes
> to it, though.

Why can't we just nominate you and be done with it? :)

- jordan

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Bill Moran

*sigh* this has gotten way off track somehow. Looking back, I'm
probably primarily to blame.

The fact is: *I* *AM* interested in replacing or helping out with
an effort to replace/improve sysinstall. However, there are two
critical things I must understand if I am to do anything truely
productive along this line:

1. Should sysinstall be fixed or replaced.
2. What needs done to fix or improve sysinstall.

Now, I've gotten several excellent suggestions with regard to #2.
If any of my replies to these seem like arguments, then that's
just a part of my inability to communicate, as what I'm trying to
do is *understand* what exactly needs done. If I only change what
*I* want, it might not be terribly useful overall (as can be seen
by my divergence from other's opinions) You make an excellent point
of this in your second paragraph below.

What I was really interested in getting answered was #1, as it
was suggested by Terry Lambert that "sysinstall must go" (don't
remember his exact words) I have no desire to start repairing
something if a complete replacement is in order.

The fact of the matter is that I don't understand the problem
enough to fix it. It may seem strange to people that I'm more
interested in understanding this problem than in fixing problems
that I already understand. Well, I always have been a little
strange ...

Personally, I would appreciate it if folks would *not* back
off from this conversation, since I'm acutally beginning to
understand, thanks to the tireless efforts of many who already
understand.

-Bill

Garance A Drosihn wrote:
> The main problem I have seen with this discussion is that the
> current partitioning program works well for you (Bill).  Every
> time anyone suggests something, you reply that it seems frivolous
> to you, or that there is no other installer that you personally
> have used which does a better job.  We're not trying to suggest
> things to make partitioning easier for YOU, we're suggesting
> things which would make it nicer/easier/friendlier for US, or
> people that we deal with.
> 
> Pretty much every time I have used the disk-partitioning software
> for freebsd I have hated it.  The *reason* I hate it changes from
> run-to-run, but I've never been particularly happy with it.  It
> is clear that you've had better luck with it than I have.  I think
> I'll just leave it at that, instead of trying to interest you in
> making some changes to it.  I do not mean this as a sarcastic jab,
> I am just making the observation that the current setup seems to
> work well for you, and thus you're not going to be as interested
> in changing it as we might have hoped.

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Re: The Foundation [was Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral]

2001-07-10 Thread Garance A Drosihn

At 10:30 AM -0700 7/7/01, Richard Hodges wrote:
>Could I just ask exactly what the FreeBSD Foundation _is_?
>
>I read the announcement and bylaws, and it looks like it is supposed
>to be the offical organization representing FreeBSD.  On the other
>hand, many people have suggested that there is no connection between
>Core and the Foundation.

It is a foundation which will fund some projects intended to
benefit FreeBSD, and "the public good".  People can send
contributions to the foundation and get a tax write-off.  For
the most part, there could be a hundred different foundations,
each contributing to freebsd in their own way, and any given
FreeBSD user could contribute to the foundations that they "trust"
the most, or which is funding the kinds of projects which that
user is particularly interested in.

The United Way collects money, and gives some of that to a local
hospital.  That does not mean the hospital IS the united way, or
that the united way IS the hospital.  They are separate entities.

>Although I infer tacit consent, I have not heard any official
>blessing of the Foundation, either.  But there is more than a
>hint of transfering the FreeBSD trademark to the Foundation.

I'll admit that this trademark issue is the one very odd thing
about the foundation.  I like the idea of the foundation, and
for the record I have already sent a small contribution to them.
If good things come of that, I'll send more.

Still, I am a bit uneasy about the trademark being turned over
to them.  Not that I worry about the individuals, but I wonder
about the foundation itself.  Let's say the trademark is moved,
and then the foundation folds.  What happens to the trademark
then?  What happens if the foundation gets the trademark, and
then they DO have to legally defend it from someone who's just
out to make trouble?  Could such an action cause the demise of
the foundation?

On the other hand, I have no better course of action to suggest
wrt the trademark.  It's just that this is the one "odd thing"
about the FreeBSD Foundation, at least in my mind.

-- 
Garance Alistair Drosehn=   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Senior Systems Programmer   or  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Rensselaer Polytechnic Instituteor  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Laurence Berland



On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, Wes Peters wrote:

> Laurence Berland wrote:
> > 
> > On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, Rasputin wrote:
> > 
> > > I may be low on caffeine, but I don't see how breaking up the base system
> > > into packages makes it any easier to upgrade than using cvsup?
> > 
> > I think the discussion is Re: binary upgrades, like putting in the CD and
> > hitting that upgrade option, which right now doesn't quite get you there
> > afaik.
> 
> I don't think the goal was to make the system easier to upgrade, but rather
> easier to subset.  Do we really NEED to have sendmail on every DNS server
> we put together?

Also very true.  But in the context of upgrades, which is what Rasputin
was coming from, it's a binary upgrade issue, not a source one, which is
why cvsup isn't a fair comparison.  I definitely think it'd be nice to
have things like sendmail somewhat more separate.

> 
> -- 
> "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?"
> 
> Wes Peters Softweyr LLC
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://softweyr.com/
> 


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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Garance A Drosihn

At 3:42 PM -0400 7/10/01, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>In a message dated 07/10/2001 12:52:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
>>  BSDi had no effect on ftp.freebsd.org's services and kept things
>>   completely unchanged there
>
>which pretty much confirms my "no impact" statement in that area.

I must admit, I am also pretty close to filtering out everything
from your userid, as your comments are just a waste of time.  That's
pretty amazing, considering that most of this thread is a waste of
time, and yet you're the only one who really strikes me as being
worth a filter.

-- 
Garance Alistair Drosehn=   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Senior Systems Programmer   or  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Rensselaer Polytechnic Instituteor  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Garance A Drosihn

At 9:49 AM -0400 7/10/01, Bill Moran wrote:
>Wes Peters wrote:
>
>  > Oh, come now.  FreeBSD's disk partitioning has always sucked.
>  > It does suck somewhat less than many Linux linstallers, and a
>  > lot less than the OpenBSD installer,

actually, there are a few things about the openbsd partitioning
setup which I kinda like... :-)

>  > but it still shoves way too many details and options at the
>  > average user.  Something akin to PartitionMagic would be an
>  > ideal way to go, given unlimited resources to throw against
>  > this particular problem.
>
>Now, I've never used partition magic, but I (personally) find the
>FreeBSD partition program in sysinstall to be the easiest one I've
>ever used.  What should be changed to make it easier?

The main problem I have seen with this discussion is that the
current partitioning program works well for you (Bill).  Every
time anyone suggests something, you reply that it seems frivolous
to you, or that there is no other installer that you personally
have used which does a better job.  We're not trying to suggest
things to make partitioning easier for YOU, we're suggesting
things which would make it nicer/easier/friendlier for US, or
people that we deal with.

Pretty much every time I have used the disk-partitioning software
for freebsd I have hated it.  The *reason* I hate it changes from
run-to-run, but I've never been particularly happy with it.  It
is clear that you've had better luck with it than I have.  I think
I'll just leave it at that, instead of trying to interest you in
making some changes to it.  I do not mean this as a sarcastic jab,
I am just making the observation that the current setup seems to
work well for you, and thus you're not going to be as interested
in changing it as we might have hoped.

I do wish I could find someone who was interested in making changes
to it, though.

-- 
Garance Alistair Drosehn=   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Senior Systems Programmer   or  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Rensselaer Polytechnic Instituteor  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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TCP Window Size

2001-07-10 Thread Joseph Lekostaj


I've been trying to up my TCP window size from the default 16K and it's caused nothing 
but problems.  From the info I've found so far, these are the sysctl i've changed:

kern.ipc.maxsockbuffer=2097152
net.inet.tcp.rfc1323=1
net.inet.tcp.sendspace=524288
net.inet.tcp.recvspace=524288

But if I do that, on boot I get all sorts of error messages about buffer space.  i.e.:

Jul  9 11:53:20 ccn64 portmap[180]: cannot create tcp socket: No buffer space available
Jul  9 11:53:21 ccn64 inetd[199]: shell/tcp: socket: No buffer space available
Jul  9 11:53:21 ccn64 inetd[199]: login/tcp: socket: No buffer space available
Jul  9 11:58:55 ccn64 RPC::PlClient[243]: Cannot connect: No buffer space available 
Jul  9 11:58:55 ccn64 RPC::PlClient[246]: Cannot connect: No buffer space available

Is there anything I'm missing?

-- 
Joe LeKostaj
-
Just don't create a file called -rf.

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Re: Athlon MP / AMD 760MP Chipset (Athlon SMP question)

2001-07-10 Thread Linh Pham

On 2001-07-10, Josh M Osborne scribbled:

# The current Intel's have a shared bus, and all memory traffic goes
# over it, and some cache coherency traffic as well.

The official names of Intel's bus include: GTL, GTL+, AGTL and AGTL+.
The new iTanic (aka Itanium) processor uses the AGTL+ protocol whereas
the Pentium II/III use the GTL protocol. The Pentium 4 uses the GTL+
which allows for the quad-pumped 100Mhz FSB. I could have mixed up which
processor uses which... but you get the idea :)

# The AMD's/EV6's have a memory bus PER CPU plus a coherency bus.
# I think the coherency bus may even be point-to-point between the
# CPU and coherency controller, not a all the CPUs with the coherency
# controller being responsible for routing messages as needed.

If I read the specs correctly on the EV6 protocol... each CPU has a
separate connection to the 'northbridge' chip. It's up to the
northbridge to provide connectivity to the memory.

# It is clearly a more expensive, more complex system.  It also allows
# much higher memory bandwidth (if two CPUs are looking at different
# chunks of the address space they get their own path to memory).  If
# the coherency "bus" really is point-to-point the coherency controller
# has to have a big chunk of SRAM, but you should be able to get
# dramatically more CPUs to access memory quickly.

The biggest problem is the number of traces required... which is more
than double of that found in a single-processor configuration. Also,
there is a memory bandwidth bottleneck if you have both processors
hitting memory... there isn't a lot of bandwidth left open for other
devices ;-)

# That may explain why you can buy Alpha systems with 40+ CPUs, and
# Intel XENON boxes with no more then eight (or is it four?).  It is
# also part of why the big Alphas are costly, but only part of it...

32-way machines are built differently than your 2-way or 4-way servers.
Some use cellular multi-processing, some use NUMA, and many other
techologies and concepts to allow massive number of processors within a
single server. You can build a 32-way Xeon machine (Unisys has...
NUMA-Q... which used to be Sequent, I believe has a 32-way configuration
available) but they are very, very expensive... mostly when each 'pod'
or 'cell' requires 2+ Meg of coherency cache... plus the numerous
amounts of memory channels.

-- 
Linh Pham
[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

// 404b - Brain not found


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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Bsdguru

In a message dated 07/10/2001 12:52:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> BSDi had no effect on ftp.freebsd.org's services and kept things
>  completely unchanged there

which pretty much confirms my "no impact" statement in that area.

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Re: Athlon MP / AMD 760MP Chipset (Athlon SMP question)

2001-07-10 Thread Wilko Bulte

On Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:25:13PM -0400, Josh M Osborne wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 12:42:12PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> [...]
> > > Instead, AMD implemented the Intel APIC specification;
> > > I'm not sure if they did it by licensing the patent
> > > (Intel had a patent on the APIC design), or if it's
> > > just been long enough for it to come off patent 
> > 
> > The Athlon uses the Alpha's ev6 spec, not the intel spec.

> That may explain why you can buy Alpha systems with 40+ CPUs, and

32 max, on Wildfire. 

> Intel XENON boxes with no more then eight (or is it four?).  It is

Eight, eg on a Compaq Proliant 8000. Or 32 for the Unisys (IIRC) CMP
machines.

-- 
|   / o / /  _  Arnhem, The Netherlands email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
|/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte   "Youth is not a time in life, it is a state of mind"

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ie ethernet device driver

2001-07-10 Thread steve . d . meacham

I have two machines which still use the ie ethernet driver.  It seems 
to have been disabled, but I'm not sure why.

Can someone explain why it has been removed, or perhaps if it got 
broken, if it is feasible to put it back into -STABLE?  

The driver is still listed in a number of places including man, LINT, 
the source, etc.  However, it is unusable because it has been removed 
from isa_compat.h so it cannot be recognized by the OS.  In addition, 
there is an intermittent bug (PR 16214) with the driver.  There is a 
fix for both of these problems here:

http://www.jfitz.com/tips/freebsd_etherexpress16.html

It modifies the following files, which are the culprits for the current 
lack of support for the ie driver:

/usr/src/sys/dev/ie/if_ie.c and
/usr/src/sys/i386/isa/isa_compat.h

The fix works great and I've had no issues with the machines running 
it, even though I put a heavy load on both of them for network 
services.  They shuffle mail, answer DNS queries, and provide ntp and 
nfs services for months without a problem.

These machines and cards are old, granted.  But there is a certain 
pride that I can take in keeping a 486DX/100 and a 386SX/16 as two of 
the most stable machines in a production environment.

Regards,
Steven


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Re: Athlon MP / AMD 760MP Chipset (Athlon SMP question)

2001-07-10 Thread Josh M Osborne

On Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 12:42:12PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[...]
> > Instead, AMD implemented the Intel APIC specification;
> > I'm not sure if they did it by licensing the patent
> > (Intel had a patent on the APIC design), or if it's
> > just been long enough for it to come off patent 
> 
> The Athlon uses the Alpha's ev6 spec, not the intel spec.

The APIC covers things like how I/O interrupts are routed.  The
thing AMD licensed from DEC (or Compaq) is the ev6 "bus" protocol
for keeping the cache contents coherent between CPUs.  That is
basically invisible to even OS software (as long as it works),
other then altering how long memory references take.

The current Intel's have a shared bus, and all memory traffic goes
over it, and some cache coherency traffic as well.

The AMD's/EV6's have a memory bus PER CPU plus a coherency bus.
I think the coherency bus may even be point-to-point between the
CPU and coherency controller, not a all the CPUs with the coherency
controller being responsible for routing messages as needed.

It is clearly a more expensive, more complex system.  It also allows
much higher memory bandwidth (if two CPUs are looking at different
chunks of the address space they get their own path to memory).  If
the coherency "bus" really is point-to-point the coherency controller
has to have a big chunk of SRAM, but you should be able to get
dramatically more CPUs to access memory quickly.

That may explain why you can buy Alpha systems with 40+ CPUs, and
Intel XENON boxes with no more then eight (or is it four?).  It is
also part of why the big Alphas are costly, but only part of it...
-- 
Not speaking for much of anyone, maybe not even myself

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Jamie Bowden

On 10 Jul 2001, Rajappa Iyer wrote:

:Jamie Bowden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
:
:> On 10 Jul 2001, Rajappa Iyer wrote:
:
:> :One of the nice things I like about FreeBSD (and I daresay I'm not
:> :alone in this) is that when I install it, I know that I'll get a
:> :kernel with a corresponding full and functional userland.  I see the
:> :packaging of this `base system' as a bunch of (meta)packages as the
:> :thin edge of the wedge---pretty soon FreeBSD will resemble the
:> :hodge-podge collection of different (often conflicting) packages that
:> :Linux is.
:> 
:> Where as I see the ability to incrementally upgrade only the parts of the
:> OS that have changed from release to release as I can do right now in
:> Irix.
:
:Yes, I understand the argument, but fear that it's all too easy to get
:into the kind of package mess that all Linux dists have.  It would
:require considerable amount of release engineering and testing to get
:everything right.  Do you really think it's worth expending that
:amount of effort for an arguably minor improvement?

I wouldn't call having that kind of improvement minor.  For all
inst/swmgr's warts, I can use it on a graphics or serial console with no
problem.  I can use it to do network installs of new machines or network
upgrades on existing machines.  Part of what makes it as usefull as it is
is tied to the SGI Prom having network support built in, which most PC's
lack (I'd say all, but someone, somewhere, would present a motherboard
with onboard networking and a bios that had network support).  This can be
overcome with a minimal kernel (and even SGI goes this route with the
miniroot).  Is Irix the best Unix in the world?  No, but there are some
damn nice aspects to it, and it wouldn't hurt to emulate it where it
shines.  It will of course install from local CDROM or tape drive as well.

One of Irix's shining features is its installation and package management
systems, which are one and the same.  You can load scripts from within it
to automate with subsystems are installed (guaranteeing consistency of the
machines you have to manage).  Part of my default installation handles
instified third party software, because I can.  I could automate the
process to the level of Solaris' Jumpstart if I chose, but don't have
enough machines here to warrant that level of automation.  And at anytime,
I can remove a subsystem (like printing for example if I decide I don't
need it) without manually digging through the OS directory tree and
deleting bits (that something else may require that I wasn't aware of).

Jamie Bowden

-- 
"It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold"
Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur"
Iain Bowen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Bill Moran

Terry Lambert wrote:
> > If anyone is taking a vote, I disagree. I do not want any system
> > ever assuming anything about my network. Even Win checks with the
> > user before enabling DHCP.
> 
> FYI: The networking bootstrap process I described above
> is derived from the process used by Windows 98 and above,
> as it comes configured by default on systems with integral
> network cards.

Personally, I don't consider win98 a reference point
by which to model OS design. When you say win98 and
above do you include the NT line (win2k)? With
the _current_ IPv4 network, I don't see any good
reason for servers to use DHCP, and FreeBSD is
primarily a server OS, so why should it default
to DHCP?

> The "link.local" draft RFC for doing the
> IPv4 stateless autoconfiguration was coauthored by a
> Microsoft employee.

I'm not familiar with the standards you reference
above, what's the RFC#?

> See the IETF "ZEROCONF" working group for more details:
> this stuff is going to be part of the standards soon.

Possibly. But then again, IPv6 will change a number of the
rules as we know them. Which will be adopted and come into
widespread use first is a matter for fortune tellers.

-Bill

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Rajappa Iyer

Jamie Bowden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On 10 Jul 2001, Rajappa Iyer wrote:

> :One of the nice things I like about FreeBSD (and I daresay I'm not
> :alone in this) is that when I install it, I know that I'll get a
> :kernel with a corresponding full and functional userland.  I see the
> :packaging of this `base system' as a bunch of (meta)packages as the
> :thin edge of the wedge---pretty soon FreeBSD will resemble the
> :hodge-podge collection of different (often conflicting) packages that
> :Linux is.
> 
> Where as I see the ability to incrementally upgrade only the parts of the
> OS that have changed from release to release as I can do right now in
> Irix.

Yes, I understand the argument, but fear that it's all too easy to get
into the kind of package mess that all Linux dists have.  It would
require considerable amount of release engineering and testing to get
everything right.  Do you really think it's worth expending that
amount of effort for an arguably minor improvement?

Regards,
Rajappa
-- 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> a.k.a. Rajappa Iyer.
They also surf who stand in the waves.

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Bill Moran

Terry Lambert wrote:
> Bill Moran wrote:
> > Now, I've never used partition magic, but I (personally)
> > find the FreeBSD partition program in sysinstall to be the
> > easiest one I've ever used. What should be changed to make
> > it easier?
> 
> 1)  Buy a new laptop
> 2)  Make the Windows partition smaller
> 3)  Install FreeBSD

Touche ... considering the last time I installed FreeBSD on a
laptop, the procedure was:
1) Boot from FreeBSD CD
2) Delete existing partition
3) Install FreeBSD

OTOH: I don't see this as causing sysinstall's partition editor
to be bad/worthless. How many other installers allow partition
resizing (I don't know) Just add this feature (I'm not saying
it would be easy, I'm saying that it doesn't require scrapping
the existing system to add it, and lack of it does not
invalidiate the quality/usefulness of what currently exists.)

> > I disagree. I use sysinstall constantly. There's no easier
> > way to install packages.
> 
> ???
> 
> You suggested that people keep up to date using "cvsup";

Don't remember saying that, but I probably did ;)

> but doing that won't result in new categories showing up
> in "sysinstall", nor in your local packages archive being
> updated to match your "cvsup" sources.

You missed my point. I'm not defending sysintall in the
previous paragraph. I'm defending an overall system maintenance
utility that can be used for general stuff like changing
network config, adding users, adding/removing software, etc.
sysinstall does this now (whether badly or not).
My point is only this: Do NOT assume that sysinstall is ONLY
used during initial installation. It currently has the ability
to help out long after the system is installed. Any utility
that replaces it should be able to do the same.

-Bill

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a DDB Question.

2001-07-10 Thread Robert Sexton


I'm trying to track down a memory leak using ddb.  DDB is a really
neat piece of work, but its not very well documented.  I notice that
the man page is dated 1996, and folks have added useful things like
'call', that are undocumented.

Specifically, what it the correct syntax to examine a static variable
in a kernel routine?  I built a little bit of code to help me out,
like this:

static int my_test_routine() {
static int counter;
return(counter++);
}

So exactly what would be the syntax to examine 'counter'?

Thanks.

-- 
Robert Sexton - [EMAIL PROTECTED], Cincinnati OH, USA
There's safety in numbers... Large prime numbers. - John Gilmore

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Bill Moran

Jordan Hubbard wrote:
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > These mechanisms existed before without BSDi, so there was no "impact".
> > Actually, ftp downloads got a LOT slower after BSDi took over, so i consider
> > it a negative impact in that area.



> BSDi had no effect on ftp.freebsd.org's services and kept things
> completely unchanged there, it was merely other factors which changed.
> The Internet started to suck more and changing economic realities in
> the ISP space forced the archive to move to the east coast, where
> things only got progressively worse.  This would have occurred even
> sooner had Walnut Creek CDROM been involved and, in fact, we probably
> would have pulled the plug a lot sooner since WC had far less money to
> spend on things like that.

I'm going to go out on a limb here ...
There are how many comitters now? and how many developers? And how many
people like me who are VERY reliant on FreeBSD and are not (yet) serious
developers?
Add all those numbers up and you get a whole LOT of people.
The upshot being that keeping that many people informed accurately as to
(for example) whether or not the BSDi merger caused the ftp site to
slow down is going to be tough. Very tough. Damn near impossible. Yet,
just about every one of those folks is going to know that BSDi bought
Walnut Creek, and just about every one of those people is going to
notice when the ftp site slows down. And a frightening percentage of
them are going to put two and two together and come up with an
answer that sounds right, even if it isn't. In the lack of an
authoritative announcement such as "Because of Internet infrastructure
problems we are moving ftp.freebsd.org and we don't know whether
this will improve the situation or hurt it."  Along with the
subsequent announcements that the change didn't particularly help.
Look at it, how many sources of (mis)information are there?
All the mailing lists? The "announce" section of the website?
Daemonnews? trash^H^H^H^H^Hslashdot? (who sometimes seem to hate BSD
as much as they hate Microsoft)
With all these, the inner workings of how one merger or another affects
the big picture are simply not going to be broadly available. Making
them broadly avialable would be a wonderful thing for the community.

Perhaps an announcements page on the web site that is updated with
more frequent announcements? Maybe a special mailing list that can
be used to send out frequent announments as to what's going on in
general. How would you keep speculation from getting out of hand?
Personally, I don't know. But I think (overall) at least part of
the solution to the arguments that have been occurring is to
improve the communication channels.

So that's my "going out on a limb" for today. Hope this dissertation
is actually helpful/useful.

-Bill

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Terry Lambert

Jordan Hubbard wrote:
> > David: please install 4.3  --R E L E A S E--, the last
> > official  --R E L E A S E--.
> 
> I T  I S  T H E R E.  Man, Terry, do you really get off on being so
> publically misinformed or is there something more pathological at work
> here? :-)

Yeah, there something more pathological: what the code
says is not what the code appears to do, in practice,
during an upgrade.

As I told David, now I just have to find out why...

-- Terry

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Terry Lambert

David O'Brien wrote:
> There you go Terry, async mounts for installs.

Thanks.

This does not appear to work on upgrades for things
like /usr/ports.

Now I will have to go find out why; how annoying: yet
more work.

-- Terry

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Terry Lambert

Wes Peters wrote:
> > I think the discussion is Re: binary upgrades, like putting
> > in the CD and hitting that upgrade option, which right now
> > doesn't quite get you there afaik.
> 
> I don't think the goal was to make the system easier to upgrade,
> but rather easier to subset.  Do we really NEED to have sendmail
> on every DNS server we put together?

A properly designed system would support both.

-- Terry

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Terry Lambert

Bill Moran wrote:
> > If you pick "default installation" or "full installation", it
> > _should_ try to be smart; if you pick "custom installation",
> > you chould have to babysit it like you do today.
> >
> > In the "default" case, it should attempt to obtain a DHCP lease,
> > and, failing that, ask the user to give it settings, or let
> > them do IPv4 stateless autoconfiguration.  Ad Hoc networking
> > should always "just work".
> 
> If anyone is taking a vote, I disagree. I do not want any system
> ever assuming anything about my network. Even Win checks with the
> user before enabling DHCP.

FYI: The networking bootstrap process I described above
is derived from the process used by Windows 98 and above,
as it comes configured by default on systems with integral
network cards.  The "link.local" draft RFC for doing the
IPv4 stateless autoconfiguration was coauthored by a
Microsoft employee.

See the IETF "ZEROCONF" working group for more details:
this stuff is going to be part of the standards soon.

-- Terry

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Terry Lambert

Bill Moran wrote:
> Now, I've never used partition magic, but I (personally)
> find the FreeBSD partition program in sysinstall to be the
> easiest one I've ever used. What should be changed to make
> it easier?

1)  Buy a new laptop
2)  Make the Windows partition smaller
3)  Install FreeBSD

#1 & #3 are doable, even though #3 is counter to all
the training we put people through to get them Windows
savvy.  #2 can not be done in the FreeBSD partition
program, without destroying your Windows partition,
but Partition Magic can do it, no problem.


> I disagree. I use sysinstall constantly. There's no easier
> way to install packages.

???

You suggested that people keep up to date using "cvsup";
but doing that won't result in new categories showing up
in "sysinstall", nor in your local packages archive being
updated to match your "cvsup" sources.


> > OTOH, if you really want to take a stab at a FreeBSD
> > problem that will make you famous should you succeed,
> > we'd all like to see a lovely, simple installer that
> > will run on both direct attached VGA and a serial console,
> > is lovely and well thought out, and intuitive to use.
> > Extra points if you can run it over X across the network.
> 
> Obviously, these improvements would be good.

Part of this is concurrent version management.  Right
now, I can't make concurrent distribution images for
things like PicoBSD.

If I can install components on a one-off basis, I can
build a "PicoBSD" cafeteria-style.

For the serial console to work, the 2.88M boot floppy
image needs to include a "/boot.config" with a "-P"
in it, so that it comes up on video and keyboard if
a keyboard is present, but comes up on serial, if
one is not (the "-P" approach isn't perfect; as noted
in the handbook, the probe code can fail to probe the
keyboard unless it's a 101/102 key or better: it should
use the BIOS instead, as the BIOS always gets it right).

-- Terry

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Re: Re. The Foundation [was Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral]

2001-07-10 Thread Justin T. Gibbs

 The Foundation has yet to approach Wind River about the Trademark,
 so I cannot speculate on their disposition.
>>>
>>>What are your plans to change this situation?
>>
>>The Foundation isn't planning to do anything about the trademark or
>>in regards to any of its other proposed activities until sufficient
>>donations have arrived.  I believe that the financial statement released
>>with our announcement makes it clear why this must be the case.
>
>   How much do you think it will cost to transfer the trademark?

We're seeking legal counsel on this issue now.  We should have a
better estimate shortly.

--
Justin

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Re: Can someone verify this?

2001-07-10 Thread Christoph Sold



Paul Halliday schrieb:
> 
> FreeBSD dissent.p450.box 4.3-RC FreeBSD 4.3-RC #3: Sun Jun 10 22:27:47
> EDT 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/usr/src/sys/compile/workstation
> i386
> 
> FreeBSD useless.dell.box 4.3-STABLE FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE #6: Fri Jul  6
> 18:57:08 EDT 2001
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/usr/src/sys/compile/useless  i386
> 
> mount /dev/acd0c /cdrom > should obviously fail, yet causes...
> 
> panic: vm -fault  on nofault entry, addr: c3e1e000

# FreeBSD msgate.ms-agentur.de 4.3-Stable FreeBSD 4.3-Stable#1: Mon Jul 
9 20:26:31 CEST 2001
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/MSGATE  i386
# dmesg|grep acd
acd0: CDROM  ata ata1-master using PIO4
# mount /dev/acd0c /cdrom  /** with an ISO CD-ROM **/
mount: /dev/acd0c on /cdrom: incorrect super block
# mount /dev/acd0c /cdrom  /** without any disc   **/
mount: /dev/acd0c: device busy

No panic, no problem.
Sorry, did not try with audio CDs -- none at work available

HTH
-Christoph Sold

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Re: Re. The Foundation [was Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral]

2001-07-10 Thread David Greenman

>>> The Foundation has yet to approach Wind River about the Trademark,
>>> so I cannot speculate on their disposition.
>>
>>What are your plans to change this situation?
>
>The Foundation isn't planning to do anything about the trademark or
>in regards to any of its other proposed activities until sufficient
>donations have arrived.  I believe that the financial statement released
>with our announcement makes it clear why this must be the case.

   How much do you think it will cost to transfer the trademark?

-DG

David Greenman
Co-founder, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org
President, TeraSolutions, Inc. - http://www.terasolutions.com
Pave the road of life with opportunities.

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Re: Athlon MP / AMD 760MP Chipset (Athlon SMP question)

2001-07-10 Thread Kenneth Wayne Culver

SMP works on athlons... while internally AMD uses the Alpha EV6 bus to
give each CPU a full 200MHz point-to-point bus between it and it's RAM, to
the OS, it just looks like any other intel based SMP machine. (It just
runs faster)

Ken

On Mon, 9 Jul 2001, Nathan Vidican wrote:

> I seem to recall a few discussions about the Dual Athlon buzz some 
> while back which had stated that the Athlon would essentially require a 
> completely different SMP spec than that currently utilized by the Intel 
> procesors. Assuming that this was true, one would assume that the O/S 
> too would require a different kind of SMP support in order to function 
> with these CPUs.
> Unfortuneately, a recent thread has me at a bit of a loss here; in 
> that people seem to be speaking about the processor/smp chipset as 
> though they function just like Intel's do. Assuming that this 
> conflicting information is indeed correct, then would it not be 
> feasible to assume that the code currently implemented for using SMP 
> implementations under FreeBSD would be portable to the new Athlon MP 
> processor line?
> The threads I'm speaking of, were to freebsd-questions most 
> recently wherein someone had been asking if the new Tyan ThunderK7 
> motherboard would work with FreeBSD. The general concencus was 'why 
> not', from the responses I had read... but no one who answered really 
> seemed to know for sure.
> Just for the record, is it or is it not possible to run SMP with 
> the new Athlon MP Processors; or has no-one even tried yet? Currently 
> the only O/S I know of which is promoting the usage of such systems is 
> Novell Netware, and I am just curious if FreeBSD will (if it is not 
> currently) be capable of running on such a system?
> 
> 
> -- 
> Nathan Vidican
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://Nathan.Vidican.com/
> 
> 
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> 


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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Terry Lambert

Jamie Bowden wrote:
> You're expecting the whole world to keep the source tree on disk and
> recompile the OS.  Once I've done this, I cannot regress.  This is
> unrealistic in production environments.  I can update Irix without
> shutting down, and a single reboot at the end to load the new kernel.
> 
> Everything is tracked via inst/swmgr, any part can be upgraded or
> downgraded as necessary, including dependancies.

In a production environment, the "downgraded" part is
oftem the most critical of the two, since "upgrades"
often aren't, and being able to "undo" one that is
more trouble than it's worth is often worth the entire
price of the system, when you are up against a wall.

-- Terry

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Bill Moran

Wes Peters wrote:
> 
> Bill Moran wrote:
> >
> > Wes Peters wrote:
> >
> > > Oh, come now.  FreeBSD's disk partitioning has always sucked.  It does suck
> > > somewhat less than many Linux linstallers, and a lot less than the OpenBSD
> > > installer, but it still shoves way too many details and options at the
> > > average user.  Something akin to PartitionMagic would be an ideal way to go,
> > > given unlimited resources to throw against this particular problem.
> >
> > Now, I've never used partition magic, but I (personally) find the
> > FreeBSD
> > partition program in sysinstall to be the easiest one I've ever used.
> > What should be changed to make it easier?
> 
> "How much of this disk do you want FreeBSD to use?  ___%"

This would be a nice little addition (and probably easy to add) but
I don't see a tremendious gain from this.

> Better yet, a nice graphical
> view of the disk and the 4 possible entries in the partition table.

I would classify this as "fluff and glitz", but that may just be me.

> Allow
> the user to grab the ends of partitions we can manipulate and move them
> around, either through keyboard navigation or with a mouse.

Hmmm ... we're really aiming at novice users here now, aren't we? I
suppose
that's not a bad thing, but I just never thought of going so far with
it.

> Focus on the
> task we're attempting to accomplish: slicing the disk into 1 to 4 differnt
> logical parts, rather than on the crufty underlying details.

Hmmm ... well, I was never upset with the "crufty details" ... I rather
like
to know what's going on under the hood all the time. Then again, that's
me. If you're targeting newbies and other less-educated (or less "I sure
would like to figure this out" inclined) people, then what you're
suggesting would probably be a good idea.
OTOH: if you made it so the "crufty details" were no longer visible
at all, I would be upset to NOT be able to see what was going on.

> "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?"

You're on Earth. No further explanation needed.

-Bill

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Terry Lambert

Rasputin wrote:
> > Where as I see the ability to incrementally upgrade only
> > the parts of the OS that have changed from release to
> > release as I can do right now in Irix.
> 
> I may be low on caffeine, but I don't see how breaking up
> the base system into packages makes it any easier to upgrade
> than using cvsup?
> 
> Id have thought it would require more work to upgrade
> under some system similar to the ports tree (at least
> that's my experience)

We're talking packages, not ports.

We're also talking about being able to maintain basic
configuration control, without having to screw around
without compiling the sources yourself.

Consider binary upgrades for things like security
alerts, which could happen automatically, based on
whatever criteria you specify (including "root exploit"
or "Never Do Anything Without My Permission").

In the worst case, you could need to compile a newer
version of "sendmail" or "bind" than that which came
with the system, to resolve an exploit.  You would
still want to end up with a "RELEASE plus known patch
sets" when you were done, so that you could feel both
comfortable about your ability to reproduce your
production system, should you need to replace it or
to scale to more customers.  Running "some snapshot
of STABLE" is not really the way to do this.  And there
is the commercial support issue: what constitutes a
"supported configuration"?  Certainly not a "checkout
your source tree from your local repository copy using
this date tag: XXX".

Also, you should be aware that in commercial deployment,
having a compiler on board the system is often considered
a bad thing, as it permits entre to exploiters bringing
their own programs onto the system.  One of the things
that TrustedBSD played around with is binary signatures,
where it is not possible to run a binary that does not
have a corresponding approved signature.  In such a system,
it's really imperitive that configuration management occur
through a centralized binary blessed to install only
blessed binaries.  That _really_ precludes rebuilding
from sources.


> But like I said, I've probably misread this post.
> 
> I thought the OP was referring to X in particular, and
> since that's upgraded via ports anyway, it does seem a
> good candidate to be installed by pkg_add (it's quite
> confusing for newbies to "pkg_info | grep XFree " and
> have it return nothing, especially when you're sat in
> Enlightenment...)

This really demonstrates the problem with having base
system components (I include X11, bind, sendmail, etc. in
this) that are not easily upgraded.

-- Terry

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Jordan Hubbard

From: Terry Lambert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:02:06 -0700

> David: please install 4.3  --R E L E A S E--, the last
> official  --R E L E A S E--.

I T  I S  T H E R E.  Man, Terry, do you really get off on being so
publically misinformed or is there something more pathological at work
here? :-)

- Jordan

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Re: Athlon MP / AMD 760MP Chipset (Athlon SMP question)

2001-07-10 Thread dochawk

terry tumbled,

> but the motherboards are "jumbo sized", and take a strange
> power connector, so you can only get the power supply from
> one vendor (so far).

two, actually.


> Instead, AMD implemented the Intel APIC specification;
> I'm not sure if they did it by licensing the patent
> (Intel had a patent on the APIC design), or if it's
> just been long enough for it to come off patent 

The Athlon uses the Alpha's ev6 spec, not the intel spec.

hawk

-- 
Prof. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq. /"\   ASCII ribbon campaign 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  Smeal 178  (814) 375-4700 \ /   against HTML mail
These opinions will not be those of Xand postings 
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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Jordan Hubbard

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 11:54:59 EDT

> These mechanisms existed before without BSDi, so there was no "impact".  
> Actually, ftp downloads got a LOT slower after BSDi took over, so i consider 
> it a negative impact in that area. 

This is typical "Elvis hasn't been seen lately.  Aliens are hard to
spot too.  Conclusion: Elvis is an Alien" thinking.

BSDi had no effect on ftp.freebsd.org's services and kept things
completely unchanged there, it was merely other factors which changed.
The Internet started to suck more and changing economic realities in
the ISP space forced the archive to move to the east coast, where
things only got progressively worse.  This would have occurred even
sooner had Walnut Creek CDROM been involved and, in fact, we probably
would have pulled the plug a lot sooner since WC had far less money to
spend on things like that.

Bill's points are valid too - looking exclusively on the dark side of
things is an engineer's predilection that's not always fair or right,
and though an honest discussion on what went wrong and right is fine,
let's try to keep the crack-smoking conspiracy theories to a minimum.
Thank you.

- Jordan

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Terry Lambert

Jamie Bowden wrote:
> Where as I see the ability to incrementally upgrade only
> the parts of the OS that have changed from release to release
> as I can do right now in Irix.
> 
> You know, it's funny that you told me Irix is antiquated not long ago
> Terry, it has most of the feature set you seem to be looking for.

I don't think I said that, I think I said SGI was a
dead husk, after their suicidal leap... certainly, Irix
has better cluster scalability than most OS's of any
vintage, with XFS and their volume manager.  The only
OS that's even close is AIX.

The one really antiquated thing I can point to in Irix
is the ability to stage a quota denial of service attack
on someone by "giving" them core dump files using the
SVR3 chown semantics, but I think that's optional now
that people have complained about it so long.

-- Terry

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Terry Lambert

Rajappa Iyer wrote:
> > Well, I'd sorta like to *see* them before writing the coding
> > equivalent of a blank check, but given reasonably functional
> > implementations, sure, I'd be happy to commit your "sysinstall
> > mountpoint auto-discovery" and "release package metadata"
> > enhancements.
> 
> One of the nice things I like about FreeBSD (and I daresay I'm not
> alone in this) is that when I install it, I know that I'll get a
> kernel with a corresponding full and functional userland.  I see the
> packaging of this `base system' as a bunch of (meta)packages as the
> thin edge of the wedge---pretty soon FreeBSD will resemble the
> hodge-podge collection of different (often conflicting) packages that
> Linux is.

That would be an option, but it would certianly not be
the default.

I can install a lot of stuff today that I would claim
would put my system in the "hodge-podge" category, most
of them from ports, some of them from the net.


PS: Note that you only get a kernel if you create your
release from the GENERIC config; using a different
config with the "make release" process results in a
CDROM that boots and installs your "/kernel.MYCONFIG",
but doesn't do the final step of copying that file
to "/kernel", which renderes the resulting system
unbootable.

-- Terry

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Terry Lambert

Giorgos Keramidas wrote:
> > The base system is not registered into the packages
> > system, because of sysinstall.
> 
> It's not installed from /usr/ports but from /usr/src.
> I don't know if it's a good idea to have a huge
> freebsd_base-5.0-current-20010624 in the packages list, or a zillion
> freebsd_base-bin, freebsd_base-etc, etc. installed.

BTW:

I would settle for being able to select between base
system components that are default (e.g. "bind" and
"sendmail" and "perl", etc.), and those components
from ports (e.g. "djbdns", and "postfix" and "newer
than base version of perl") on an equivalency basis,
but I don't see how you would manage this without the
registration of base system components into the same
configuration management system as the replacements
you are permitted to select from for any given service
or role.

-- Terry

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Terry Lambert

Nik Clayton wrote:
> It's reasonable to want to control what get's called FreeBSD.

I never said it wasn't; I would just like to draw the
line on the far side of sysinstall being what shows
up first thing when you boot from a CDROM.


> The intent here is not to prevent third party installers --
> they can be open source, closed source, or whatever mix you
> want.  If you want to produce a commercial distribution of
> FreeBSD that does not use sysinstall as the default
> installation mechanism then go right ahead, make it the
> default, have it come up automatically when your customers
> boot from CD, and so on.
> 
> However, if you want to call it FreeBSD, then, somewhere,
> sysinstall (and whatever replaces it) must be available.
> Put it on "boot-legacy.flp" if you want, and strongly urge
> your customers not to use it.  But make it available to
> those that want it.

This is amazingly more reasonable than previous posts,
which have all suggested that it must be possible to
boot the CDROM to sysinstall.  Effectively, doing so
would require that sysinstall take the front seat, and
that you put another text menu entry on it to pick
your installer.


> Then I can make sure that the Handbook chapter on installation says,
> right at the beginning:

I also understand the documentation issue.

Look, I've been programming professionally for ~22 years
now, and I didn't just step off the turnup truck: you'll
find my code in BSD all the way back to when I wrote the
FAQ and patchkit for 386BSD 0.1.  I know what professional
software developement, and consistency in presentation to
the user means for a product.

...Please look at it from the perspective of someone
willing to work on improving the initial impression
that FreeBSD leaves in a user's mind:  FreeBSD is
behind in the game from the start, since PCs come
installed with Windows, and without a seperate partition
that can be easily and immediately usable by a third
party OS.  It drops further behind because of the
difficulty of transferring experience over to using
the FreeBSD tools from people who have been trained up
in the Windows style guide.

I think that any attempt to make the initial experience
less painful will require a lot of work, and the ability
to license "Partittion Magic" or a similar tool, right
out of the box, and have it be the first thing people
see (or, preferrably, have it be one of the things that
people see, as seamlessly integrated into the overall
look and feel of the installation process as possible).

The "Partition Magic for FreeBSD" isn't going to happen
without $$$ being involved, I think.  Walnut Creek sold
a FreeBSD package that included one that ran under
Windows.  But the barrier to entry is still too high to
be able to capture a reasonable mindshare.

I _personally_ do not want to build such a distribution;
I think it would open up whoever did that to extreme
friction with the FreeBSD project: Hell, even the mere
act of contemplating such a thing has practically set
off a firestorm.  No Thanks!  I'll work on the periphery
problems, hopefully enabling someone else to do the deed.

Frankly, I don't see much of this work happening, unless
there is at worst nose-thumbing ande grudging cooperation
from the project.

As Jordan says: Walnut Creek CDROM is dead; someone has
to take up the mantle -- but not me... not today.  There
are too many people looking for a back to stick arrows
into, and I'm happy to let the indians focus their
scalping on Wind River Systems for now.


-- Terry

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread David O'Brien

On Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 09:02:06AM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote:
> David O'Brien wrote:
> > 
> > On Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 01:29:23PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote:
> > > Most of the work should be done using async mounts, or
> > 
> > IT DOES.  Terry please read the code...
> 
> 
> David: please install 4.3  --R E L E A S E--, the last
> official  --R E L E A S E--.


/*
 * Miscellaneous support routines..
 *
 * $FreeBSD: src/release/sysinstall/misc.c,v 1.40 1999/11/27 14:33:07 phk Exp $
..snip...
if (mount("ufs", mountpoint, RunningAsInit ? MNT_ASYNC | MNT_NOATIME : 0,
(caddr_t)&ufsargs) == -1) {

There you go Terry, async mounts for installs.

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Christoph Sold

Dear BSD"guru",

Can you please refrain from trolling here? There is no point in
bemoaning the past. Come up with a decent software package, put it in
the ports tree, then maybe somebody will listen to you. The way you are
acting just put your address into my mailers trash filter.

Sorry about the wasted bandwith
-Christoph Sold

[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
> 
> [lots of pointless lines deleted]

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Terry Lambert

David O'Brien wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 01:29:23PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote:
> > Most of the work should be done using async mounts, or
> 
> IT DOES.  Terry please read the code...


David: please install 4.3  --R E L E A S E--, the last
official  --R E L E A S E--.

Don't install STABLE, and Don't Install CURRENT; I am well
aware that the problems have been addressed since, but they
have not been addressed by a --R E L E A S E--, or by any
CDROM you can get without having to burn your own.

Thanks,
-- Terry

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Bsdguru

In a message dated 07/10/2001 11:14:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> "How much of this disk do you want FreeBSD to use?  ___%"
>  
>  Was that really so difficult to imagine?  Better yet, a nice graphical
>  view of the disk and the 4 possible entries in the partition table.  Allow
>  the user to grab the ends of partitions we can manipulate and move them 
>  around, either through keyboard navigation or with a mouse.  Focus on the
>  task we're attempting to accomplish: slicing the disk into 1 to 4 differnt
>  logical parts, rather than on the crufty underlying details.
>  

You are assuming the "average user" understands how much to allocate for 
root, usr, var and swap, which they dont. But you can certainly make 
suggestions based on the available space. 

An important question is: are you designing this for unix gurus, or for the 
guy in the bookstore that wants to use FreeBSD? (or a windows guy who doesnt 
understand unix partition concepts?). Is your goal to make it easier for the 
unix guy to install freebsd, or to expand the market by making FreeBSD usable 
by the less-than-clueful computer professional?

Bryan

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Re: more on latency

2001-07-10 Thread Terry Lambert

Jim Bryant wrote:
> Terry Lambert wrote:
> > Kenneth Wayne Culver wrote:
> > > I think I found the reason that my FreeBSD box is performing
> > > so poorly as a NATing router. When I do an ipnat -l to see
> > > what "active connections" are there on the router, a list
> > > about 3 pages long (using ipnat -l | more) appears. I think
> > > maybe it's having trouble because for every packet coming in
> > > and out of the router, it's got to look at that list of
> > > active connections for the right one to send to and from. Is
> > > there any way to make connections that aren't being used go
> > > away from the NAT faster? Thanks a lot.
> >
> > Don't run unnecessary daemons.
> >
> > The pcb lookups are a linear traversal, as well, and for
> > a large number of connections, the calllout wheel for
> > timers sucks.
> 
> Is there a way to get similar stats from natd?

I don't know; you could look at the netstat output from
the tun interface it uses, and that would give you some
of the flow information.

In general, FreeBSD doesn't completely track SNMP RFC
mandated statistics; I've helped a local person hack
code out of netstat to do things like reporting of the
number of active connections using UCD SNMP, but it's
not common to find FreeBSD keeping stats that match up
100% with the MIB entries people normally like to see
from the generic MIBs.

-- Terry

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Bsdguru

In a message dated 07/09/2001 8:02:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

> BSDi really did make an impact. Just because you fail to see one doesn't 
mean
>  it didn't happen.  You might want to read the cvs-all mailing list. If 
you'd
>  like, I can supply you with some procmail filters that will put all of the
>  commits of people who are/were supported by WC/BSDi/WRS into a folder 
called
>  'direct-positive-result-of-bsdi-funding'.
>  
>  I'm also unclear on how you have installed FreeBSD in the past few years,
>  please clarify:
>  
>   [ ] purchased CD from BSDi
>   [ ] downloaded from ftp.freebsd.org (which BSDi was paying for)
>   [ ] downloaded from snapshot servers (partnership of USWest and WC/BSDi)
>   [ ] downloaded from FTP mirror (who got their data from ftp.freebsd.org..)
>   [ ] other (doesn't matter, the source that was used to generate the
>   binaries was stored on WC/BSDi equipment)
>  

These mechanisms existed before without BSDi, so there was no "impact".  
Actually, ftp downloads got a LOT slower after BSDi took over, so i consider 
it a negative impact in that area. 

They made little difference as far as public perception is concerned. 
Obviously  you got some dollars from them, which is good for you. 

BSDi wanted to put freebsd on the map, the same map as Linux. They failed. 
Come to terms with it.

B

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Package based configuration control

2001-07-10 Thread Terry Lambert

Bill Moran wrote:
> 
> 
> While "going on forever" would actually be required in order
> to fix things, I'm more interested in why you think that
> sysintall needs "to go" - or did I misunderstand your previous
> post? Do you think that there are simply so many problems
> with sysinstall that it's not worth fixing? I guess I was
> looking at the basic menu-driven layout and wondering
> what you saw wrong with that.

Well, for one thing, the packages menu puts up the wrong
text field from the packages as the detailed description;
for another, there are the navigation issues that Eric
Melville is currently working on (space vs. tab vs. return).

In general, I also think that the menus are too deep, and
are not organized orthogonally (there should be as little
difference as possible between the appearance of ports vs.
packages vs. base system components, when it comes to
installing them.

It's also annoying that packages have to have their
category headers compiled into the program as static
strings, or they show up as two-headed stepchildren.

But the main problem I have is that there are some things
which are tracked, and some things which aren't; it should
be the case that everything is tracked.


A surprising number of people have expressed an interest
in working on a package-based install in private email,
so it's probably an idea whose time has come.  We should
probably resurrect the -config mailing list for this
purpose.  I've Cc:'ed that list on this response.

If anyone wants to join the list, send a message to

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

With the body:

subscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED]

-- Terry

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Re: Athlon MP / AMD 760MP Chipset (Athlon SMP question)

2001-07-10 Thread Terry Lambert

Nathan Vidican wrote:
> 
> I seem to recall a few discussions about the Dual Athlon
> buzz some while back which had stated that the Athlon would
> essentially require a completely different SMP spec than that
> currently utilized by the Intel procesors. Assuming that this
> was true, one would assume that the O/S too would require a
> different kind of SMP support in order to function with these
> CPUs.
> Unfortuneately, a recent thread has me at a bit of a loss here; in
> that people seem to be speaking about the processor/smp chipset as
> though they function just like Intel's do. Assuming that this
> conflicting information is indeed correct, then would it not be
> feasible to assume that the code currently implemented for using SMP
> implementations under FreeBSD would be portable to the new Athlon MP
> processor line?

You should check the SMP list archives.

The systems work fine with FreeBSD, as it currently sits,
but the motherboards are "jumbo sized", and take a strange
power connector, so you can only get the power supply from
one vendor (so far).

There was an attempt to create a non-Intel standard
called OpenAPIC, but no one implemented motherboards
that supported it, so that attempt died.

Instead, AMD implemented the Intel APIC specification;
I'm not sure if they did it by licensing the patent
(Intel had a patent on the APIC design), or if it's
just been long enough for it to come off patent (I
seem to remember the external 386 APIC chips were out
in 1984 or a little after that, which would put them
after the 1998 date for 14 years from date of issue
for the patents on them).

-- Terry

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Inconsistency with wchar_t / wint_t in current

2001-07-10 Thread Carlo Dapor

Dear fellow hackers

I stumbled over an inconsistency with the data types wchar_t and wint_t.
My machine is a FreeBSD-5.0 current as of July 8th, 2001.


This following simple source code breaks unless You modify ,
see below.

/* stddef.h is included by curses.h, but here I want to make sure the
 * modified version of stddef.h is picked up !
 */
#include 
#include 


int
main (char *argv[], int argc) {
printf ("size of wchar_t is %d\n", sizeof (wchar_t));
printf ("size of wint_t is %d\n", sizeof (wint_t));

exit (0);

return 0;
}


The error is:

gcc -I. -O -Os -pipe -s -o mess mess.c
mess.c: In function `main':
mess.c:8: `wint_t' undeclared (first use in this function)
mess.c:8: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once
mess.c:8: for each function it appears in.)
*** Error code 1

Stop in /usr/tmp/wchar-mess.


There are two different definitions of the both data types wchar_t and wint_t.
Please refer to the output of the commands at the end of this mail.

We have (n)curses.h, defining them both unsigned long;
We have runetype,stddef,stdlib,wchar,wctype, defining them as
_BSD_WCHAR_T_ / _BSD_WINT_T_ resp.

_BSD_W{CHAR,INT}_T_ are defined in .
Also, (n)curses is FSF originated, as oulined in the disclaimer.

Now, I expected some symmetry here, note that wint_t is not defined in either
{runetype,stddef,stdlib,wchar}.h.
Also, wchar_t is not defined in wctype.h.

The definitions in curses.h are dangerous, they should use _BSD_WCHAR_T_ /
_BSD_WINT_T_, and both data types must be defined in the header files mentioned
above.

Is somebody working on reconciling the header files ?

Eventually I fixed the build by inserting the following lines in a local
stddef.h:

*** /usr/include/stddef.h   Fri May 25 02:29:30 2001
--- stddef.hMon Jul  9 21:02:25 2001
***
*** 61 
--- 62,66 
+ #ifdef_BSD_WINT_T_
+ typedef   _BSD_WINT_T_wint_t;
+ #undef_BSD_WINT_T_
+ #endif
+

Ciao, derweil,
--
Carlo


PS: Here are the revealing commands !

"fgrep wchar_t /usr/include/*.h /usr/include/sys/*.h | fgrep typedef" shows

/usr/include/curses.h:typedef unsigned long wchar_t;
/usr/include/ncurses.h:typedef unsigned long wchar_t;
/usr/include/runetype.h:typedef _BSD_WCHAR_T_   wchar_t;
/usr/include/stddef.h:typedef   _BSD_WCHAR_T_   wchar_t;
/usr/include/stdlib.h:typedef   _BSD_WCHAR_T_   wchar_t;
/usr/include/wchar.h:typedef_BSD_WCHAR_T_   wchar_t;


Whereas "fgrep wint_t /usr/include/*.h /usr/include/sys/*.h | fgrep typedef"
results in

/usr/include/curses.h:typedef long int wint_t;
/usr/include/ncurses.h:typedef long int wint_t;
/usr/include/wchar.h:typedef_BSD_WINT_T_wint_t;
/usr/include/wctype.h:typedef   _BSD_WINT_T_wint_t;

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Updated Aironet Sniffing patches for -stable

2001-07-10 Thread Doug Ambrisko

I have new patches for the Aironet sniffing and some major code clean-up of
duplicated structures and defines it requires the latest -stable.
http://www.ambrisko.com/doug/an/an.patch.cisco.rfmon2+ifconfig5
Applies to /usr/src if you don't have the linux ioctl patch from:
http://www.ambrisko.com/doug/an/
installed then undef LINUX_COMPAT.

Please test and then I will send-pr the patches in.

Note this patch touches tcpdump & libpcap to add 802.11 support so a make
world & kernel is recommended.  This won't be needed when our 
tcpdump & libpcap is updated.

Doug A.

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Wes Peters

Laurence Berland wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, Rasputin wrote:
> 
> > I may be low on caffeine, but I don't see how breaking up the base system
> > into packages makes it any easier to upgrade than using cvsup?
> 
> I think the discussion is Re: binary upgrades, like putting in the CD and
> hitting that upgrade option, which right now doesn't quite get you there
> afaik.

I don't think the goal was to make the system easier to upgrade, but rather
easier to subset.  Do we really NEED to have sendmail on every DNS server
we put together?

-- 
"Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?"

Wes Peters Softweyr LLC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://softweyr.com/

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Wes Peters

Bill Moran wrote:
> 
> Wes Peters wrote:
> 
> > Oh, come now.  FreeBSD's disk partitioning has always sucked.  It does suck
> > somewhat less than many Linux linstallers, and a lot less than the OpenBSD
> > installer, but it still shoves way too many details and options at the
> > average user.  Something akin to PartitionMagic would be an ideal way to go,
> > given unlimited resources to throw against this particular problem.
> 
> Now, I've never used partition magic, but I (personally) find the
> FreeBSD
> partition program in sysinstall to be the easiest one I've ever used.
> What should be changed to make it easier?

"How much of this disk do you want FreeBSD to use?  ___%"

Was that really so difficult to imagine?  Better yet, a nice graphical
view of the disk and the 4 possible entries in the partition table.  Allow
the user to grab the ends of partitions we can manipulate and move them 
around, either through keyboard navigation or with a mouse.  Focus on the
task we're attempting to accomplish: slicing the disk into 1 to 4 differnt
logical parts, rather than on the crufty underlying details.


-- 
"Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?"

Wes Peters Softweyr LLC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://softweyr.com/

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Nik Clayton

On Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:26:43PM +0200, Olaf Hoyer wrote:
> We agreed to do something in Europe:
> 
> - providing informational structure for BSD
> - providing a channel where people that want to do booths at exhibitions etc
> may contact and get some help, pre-financing (perhaps) and merchandise articles
> to help financing the whole thing.

Can I point you at the BSD EU Group mailing list, [EMAIL PROTECTED], where
much the same discussions are happening at the moment.

N
-- 
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FreeBSD Documentation Project   http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/

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 PGP signature


Re: wx0 jumbo frame support explosions..

2001-07-10 Thread Geoff Mohler

Yay.

:^)

Timeframe?

On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, Matthew Jacob wrote:

> Not debugged yet.
> 
> 
> On Mon, 9 Jul 2001, Geoff Mohler wrote:
> 
> > When I enable jumbo frames in /usr/src/sys/pci.if_wx.c, and then set it
> > via 'ifconfig wx0 mtu 9000' once the new kernel is booted..my system
> > immediately goes zonkers...not even healthy enough to log.  Just kernel
> > panic and reboot.
> > 
> > Idears?
> > 
> > ---
> > **
> > *New & Improved: http://www.speedtoys.com*
> > **
> > 
> > 
> > To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
> > 
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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> 

---
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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Bill Moran

Terry Lambert wrote:

> If you pick "default installation" or "full installation", it
> _should_ try to be smart; if you pick "custom installation",
> you chould have to babysit it like you do today.
> 
> In the "default" case, it should attempt to obtain a DHCP lease,
> and, failing that, ask the user to give it settings, or let
> them do IPv4 stateless autoconfiguration.  Ad Hoc networking
> should always "just work".

If anyone is taking a vote, I disagree. I do not want any system
ever assuming anything about my network. Even Win checks with the
user before enabling DHCP.

-Bill

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Bill Moran

Wes Peters wrote:

> Oh, come now.  FreeBSD's disk partitioning has always sucked.  It does suck
> somewhat less than many Linux linstallers, and a lot less than the OpenBSD
> installer, but it still shoves way too many details and options at the
> average user.  Something akin to PartitionMagic would be an ideal way to go,
> given unlimited resources to throw against this particular problem.

Now, I've never used partition magic, but I (personally) find the
FreeBSD
partition program in sysinstall to be the easiest one I've ever used.
What should be changed to make it easier?

> The main problem with sysinstall all along has been that it is a one-off
> program.  There is no glitz in writing installers, and they're only used
> once, then rarely if ever again.

I disagree. I use sysinstall constantly. There's no easier way to
install
packages. I also direct newbies to use sysinstall to tweak parameters
and install software. Especially on my home desktop system where I'm
constantly installing/uninstalling software. As previously stated, I
find the partitioning a perfect combination of easy to use/easy to
control that I almost always use it when adding disks.

While I won't disagree that there are things in sysinstall that can
be improved (for example, you seem to get lost in menus at times) I
don't think it should ever be pawned off as something that a user
only sees once. Lurk -questions for a while and see how often a
newbie is directed back to sysinstall to correct something or install
a package.

> OTOH, if you really want to take a stab at a FreeBSD problem that will
> make you famous should you succeed, we'd all like to see a lovely, simple
> installer that will run on both direct attached VGA and a serial console,
> is lovely and well thought out, and intuitive to use.  Extra points if you
> can run it over X across the network.

Obviously, these improvements would be good.

-Bill

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Laurence Berland



On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, Rasputin wrote:

> I may be low on caffeine, but I don't see how breaking up the base system
> into packages makes it any easier to upgrade than using cvsup?

I think the discussion is Re: binary upgrades, like putting in the CD and
hitting that upgrade option, which right now doesn't quite get you there
afaik.

> 
> Id have thought it would require more work to upgrade under some system
> similar to the ports tree (at least that's my experience)
> 
> But like I said, I've probably misread this post.
> 
> I thought the OP was referring to X in particular, and since that's
> upgraded via ports anyway, it does seem a good candidate to be
> installed by pkg_add (it's quite confusing for newbies to 
> "pkg_info | grep XFree " and have it return nothing, especially when
> you're sat in Enlightenment...)

L:

http://www.isp.northwestern.edu/~laurence


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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Olaf Hoyer


>
>
> > ... or maybe we should remind ourselves that the only thing
> > official about FreeBSD is the code. Let the CD vendors figure
> > out ways to attract customers from each other, lets worry more
> > about ways to attract 'customers' from other operating systems.
>
>Bill and Jordan are right on this one, guys.  We (as in FreeBSD) can put
>up the ISOs and every Tom, Dick and Harry with a CD burner can distribute
>FreeBSD, and differentiate themselves on packaging, sales channel, and
>customer service.  Who knows, we might even get a few local shops to pre-
>install FreeBSD on a machine or two, with their own FreeBSD discs thrown
>in.  It could happen.  I'll talk to SuperDale and see if "Totally Awesome
>Computers" will do this, they run their web site on FreeBSD.

Hi folks!

Well, I'm just returning from german Linuxtag, one of the biggest events 
concernung free software. (http://www.linuxtag.org)

We ran also a booth there, providing information ( I also held some speech 
there, covering the history of BSD) and some contacts.

We agreed to do something in Europe:

- providing informational structure for BSD
- providing a channel where people that want to do booths at exhibitions etc
may contact and get some help, pre-financing (perhaps) and merchandise articles
to help financing the whole thing.

Basically, those people who showed up at our booth asked:

Well, ok, it seems that this is a good OS, but where/whom can I contact in 
case of trouble?
Who provides _commercial_ support?
I'd love to buy a T-Shirt or a pin, can you sell me one?
I already use BSD, but are there any books about it?
((No, not the handbook. People love to pay for additional literature 
helping make the bookshelf look cool.)

So there certainly is money involved, and if we could organize it in a way, 
that money flows back to the project respectively into activities that help 
promoting BSD, that should be fine.

This also includes the possibility (which needs to be checked for 
legal/trade commision issued yet) to provide any user with the possibility 
to order some CDs, T-Shirts whatsoever.

BTW: BSD stands herein for: Free/Net/OpenBSD, BSD/OS, MacOS X, as far the 
BSD portion is concerned.

Any input? Maybe we should take this over to -chat.

Olaf


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Re: vfs.vmiodirenable undocumented

2001-07-10 Thread Sheldon Hearn



On Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:13:23 +0200, Sheldon Hearn wrote:

> Someone recently suggested that I tune vfs.vmiodirenable on a system
> with lots of memory.  The CVS commit logs and the source tell me
> absolutely nothing about what this tunable does.
> 
> Is anyone in a position to document it?

Someone mailed me privately and pointed out that the sysctl is
documented in tuning(7).

Thanks,
Sheldon.

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Re: more on latency

2001-07-10 Thread Stephen McKay

On Monday, 9th July 2001, Terry Lambert wrote:

>Kenneth Wayne Culver wrote:
>> 
>> I think I found the reason that my FreeBSD box is performing
>> so poorly as a NATing router. When I do an ipnat -l to see
>> what "active connections" are there on the router, a list
>> about 3 pages long (using ipnat -l | more) appears. I think
>> maybe it's having trouble because for every packet coming in
>> and out of the router, it's got to look at that list of
>> active connections for the right one to send to and from. Is
>> there any way to make connections that aren't being used go
>> away from the NAT faster? Thanks a lot.
>
>Don't run unnecessary daemons.
>
>The pcb lookups are a linear traversal, as well, and for
>a large number of connections, the calllout wheel for
>timers sucks.

I can't imagine even the most inefficiently coded linear traversal
causing this problem given the beefy machine being used.

I set up a cable sharing system for friends of mine and it is a Pentium
100 with 2 ISA NICs!  That system adds no more than 2 or so ms to the
latency with 3 simultaneous counterstrike players.  I used ipfw and natd
in a trivial configuration on 4.3-R.

I wonder if the problem is a lack of mbufs or some similar misconfiguration
tragedy.  "netstat -m" and "top" output might be helpful.

Stephen.

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vfs.vmiodirenable undocumented

2001-07-10 Thread Sheldon Hearn


Someone recently suggested that I tune vfs.vmiodirenable on a system
with lots of memory.  The CVS commit logs and the source tell me
absolutely nothing about what this tunable does.

Is anyone in a position to document it?

Ciao,
Sheldon.

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Jamie Bowden

On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, Rasputin wrote:

:* Jamie Bowden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [010710 12:42]:
:> On 10 Jul 2001, Rajappa Iyer wrote:
:
:> :One of the nice things I like about FreeBSD (and I daresay I'm not
:> :alone in this) is that when I install it, I know that I'll get a
:> :kernel with a corresponding full and functional userland.  I see the
:> :packaging of this `base system' as a bunch of (meta)packages as the
:> :thin edge of the wedge---pretty soon FreeBSD will resemble the
:> :hodge-podge collection of different (often conflicting) packages that
:> :Linux is.
:
:> Where as I see the ability to incrementally upgrade only the parts of the
:> OS that have changed from release to release as I can do right now in
:> Irix.
:
:I may be low on caffeine, but I don't see how breaking up the base system
:into packages makes it any easier to upgrade than using cvsup?

:Id have thought it would require more work to upgrade under some system
:similar to the ports tree (at least that's my experience)

:But like I said, I've probably misread this post.

You're expecting the whole world to keep the source tree on disk and
recompile the OS.  Once I've done this, I cannot regress.  This is
unrealistic in production environments.  I can update Irix without
shutting down, and a single reboot at the end to load the new kernel.

Everything is tracked via inst/swmgr, any part can be upgraded or
downgraded as necessary, including dependancies.

Jamie Bowden

-- 
"It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold"
Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur"
Iain Bowen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



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Re: g++ and substring extraction

2001-07-10 Thread German Tischler

On Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 12:41:55PM +0200, Volker Sturm wrote:
> Hi,
> I am using g++ 2.95.3 on 4.3-STABLE. I want to do some string operations
> in one
> of my functions. The manual for g++ says that there are member functions
> like
> somestring.before(i); or
> somestring.at(0, i);

Did you try the substr method ? For example

string s2 = s1.substr(pos,length);

--gt

 PGP signature


Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Rasputin

* Jamie Bowden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [010710 12:42]:
> On 10 Jul 2001, Rajappa Iyer wrote:

> :One of the nice things I like about FreeBSD (and I daresay I'm not
> :alone in this) is that when I install it, I know that I'll get a
> :kernel with a corresponding full and functional userland.  I see the
> :packaging of this `base system' as a bunch of (meta)packages as the
> :thin edge of the wedge---pretty soon FreeBSD will resemble the
> :hodge-podge collection of different (often conflicting) packages that
> :Linux is.

> Where as I see the ability to incrementally upgrade only the parts of the
> OS that have changed from release to release as I can do right now in
> Irix.

I may be low on caffeine, but I don't see how breaking up the base system
into packages makes it any easier to upgrade than using cvsup?

Id have thought it would require more work to upgrade under some system
similar to the ports tree (at least that's my experience)

But like I said, I've probably misread this post.

I thought the OP was referring to X in particular, and since that's
upgraded via ports anyway, it does seem a good candidate to be
installed by pkg_add (it's quite confusing for newbies to 
"pkg_info | grep XFree " and have it return nothing, especially when
you're sat in Enlightenment...)

-- 
Oh, I don't blame Congress.  If I had $600 billion at my disposal, I'd
be irresponsible, too.
-- Lichty & Wagner
Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns ::

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Re: Athlon MP / AMD 760MP Chipset (Athlon SMP question)

2001-07-10 Thread Peter Wemm

"Nathan Vidican" wrote:
> I seem to recall a few discussions about the Dual Athlon buzz some 
> while back which had stated that the Athlon would essentially require a 
> completely different SMP spec than that currently utilized by the Intel 
> procesors. Assuming that this was true, one would assume that the O/S 
> too would require a different kind of SMP support in order to function 
> with these CPUs.

It works fine.  AMD implemented Intel MPSPEC 1.4 for SMP and it is
closer to compliance than most Intel / serverworks systems.

There is no magic required.  I have a thunder K7 for my desktop with dual
1.2GHz AthlonMP's.  All 4.x+ releases will boot on it.  The only gotcha is
that the older releases dont recognize the 766 IDE controller and run in
biosdma mode instead of UDMA66/100.

http://people.freebsd.org/~peter/thunderk7.txt

I asked the Tyan people about the special power connector..  That's there
solely for the AGPPro support.  Other motherboards that have AGPPro have a
second power connector.  The base system uses nowhere near the power that
the 460W power supplies are capable of, unless you start using the 200Watt+
double height AGPPro slot with the extra fingers for power feeds.

Cheers,
-Peter
--
Peter Wemm - [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5


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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Jamie Bowden

On 10 Jul 2001, Rajappa Iyer wrote:

:Jordan Hubbard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
:
:> Well, I'd sorta like to *see* them before writing the coding
:> equivalent of a blank check, but given reasonably functional
:> implementations, sure, I'd be happy to commit your "sysinstall
:> mountpoint auto-discovery" and "release package metadata"
:> enhancements.
:
:One of the nice things I like about FreeBSD (and I daresay I'm not
:alone in this) is that when I install it, I know that I'll get a
:kernel with a corresponding full and functional userland.  I see the
:packaging of this `base system' as a bunch of (meta)packages as the
:thin edge of the wedge---pretty soon FreeBSD will resemble the
:hodge-podge collection of different (often conflicting) packages that
:Linux is.

Where as I see the ability to incrementally upgrade only the parts of the
OS that have changed from release to release as I can do right now in
Irix.

You know, it's funny that you told me Irix is antiquated not long ago
Terry, it has most of the feature set you seem to be looking for.

Jamie Bowden

-- 
"It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold"
Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur"
Iain Bowen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Nik Clayton

On Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 03:51:15AM +, Terry Lambert wrote:
> ] I never said a "CDROM must boot to sysinstall" and I challenge you to
> ] find a quote to that effect.  What both Nik and I said was that it
> ] must be an OPTION to do so, somehow, or you haven't provided a stock
> ] FreeBSD experience and people are potentially going to be confused as
> ] to what "FreeBSD" means.  This holds especially true if you haven't
> ] provided source code to your wizzy installer and they have no way of
> ] figuring out how or why it's even misbehaving, which you can bet it
> ] will since nobody ever writes perfect software.
> 
> You know that the CDROM boot process is based on a 2.88M floppy
> image.  If it "must be an OPTION to do so", then you are saying
> the same thing: that it must boot to sysinstall.

Not at all.  If you're thinking of shipping a CD, make sure that
somewhere on that CD is a copy of the existing two floppy images, a copy
of fdimage (or similar), and a paragraph of documentation that says:

If you would prefer to use the standard FreeBSD installer
(sysinstall) then take two blank floppies.  Insert the first floppy,
and run "fdimage mfsroot.flp a:", then insert the second floppy and
run "fdimage boot.flp a:".  Leave that floppy in the drive, and
reboot (making sure to set your BIOS to "boot from floppy").  The
FreeBSD Project installer will then start.  Using this installer is
not documented here (we strongly urge you to use the installer we
provide and document) but it is covered in chapter 2 of the FreeBSD
Handbook, at http://www.FreeBSD.org/.

That would completely satisfy the requirements I've outlined.

N
-- 
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FreeBSD Documentation Project   http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/

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 PGP signature


g++ and substring extraction

2001-07-10 Thread Volker Sturm

Hi,
I am using g++ 2.95.3 on 4.3-STABLE. I want to do some string operations
in one
of my functions. The manual for g++ says that there are member functions
like
somestring.before(i); or
somestring.at(0, i);
Problem is that the compiler complains that these member functions don't
exist. It only recognizes
somestring.at(i);
So I did a not very satisfying rebuild of the above functionality by a
for(;;)-construct and concatenated the desired string character-wise.
Is there a compiler option to be set so that I can access this advanced
functionality? Does the FreeBSD-port miss some features?

Volker Sturm


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Re: best way to migrate to a new disk

2001-07-10 Thread Christoph Sold



Steven Ames schrieb:
> 
> > > Don't use tar.  It loses devices, can't handle holey files well and a
> > > number of other minor clitches.  Use dump instead.
> 
> Hrm... what about 'rsync'? Does it suffer from the same problems as 'tar'?
> I use rsync a lot because its incremental. This is off topic from migrating
> to
> a new disk, but I am curious...

rsync won't handle holey files at all. Think about the space you're
wasting. Stay with dump, or peruse dd.

HTH
-Christoph Sold

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Re: wx0 jumbo frame support explosions..

2001-07-10 Thread Matthew Jacob

Not debugged yet.


On Mon, 9 Jul 2001, Geoff Mohler wrote:

> When I enable jumbo frames in /usr/src/sys/pci.if_wx.c, and then set it
> via 'ifconfig wx0 mtu 9000' once the new kernel is booted..my system
> immediately goes zonkers...not even healthy enough to log.  Just kernel
> panic and reboot.
> 
> Idears?
> 
> ---
> **
> *New & Improved: http://www.speedtoys.com*
> **
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
> 


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wx0 jumbo frame support explosions..

2001-07-10 Thread Geoff Mohler

When I enable jumbo frames in /usr/src/sys/pci.if_wx.c, and then set it
via 'ifconfig wx0 mtu 9000' once the new kernel is booted..my system
immediately goes zonkers...not even healthy enough to log.  Just kernel
panic and reboot.

Idears?

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Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral

2001-07-10 Thread Rajappa Iyer

Jordan Hubbard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Well, I'd sorta like to *see* them before writing the coding
> equivalent of a blank check, but given reasonably functional
> implementations, sure, I'd be happy to commit your "sysinstall
> mountpoint auto-discovery" and "release package metadata"
> enhancements.

One of the nice things I like about FreeBSD (and I daresay I'm not
alone in this) is that when I install it, I know that I'll get a
kernel with a corresponding full and functional userland.  I see the
packaging of this `base system' as a bunch of (meta)packages as the
thin edge of the wedge---pretty soon FreeBSD will resemble the
hodge-podge collection of different (often conflicting) packages that
Linux is.

Rajappa
-- 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> a.k.a. Rajappa Iyer.
They also surf who stand in the waves.

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DDB 'kill' command

2001-07-10 Thread Dima Dorfman

Hi folks,

The attached patch implements a 'kill' command in DDB.  Previously, it
was possible to do `call psignal(xxx,yyy)` and have it DTRT.  (This
was very useful when you accidently got your system so deep in the
hole that spawning kill(1) takes forever and even then possibly
doesn't succeed.)  However, psignal() doesn't respect locking by
itself, so trying that now leads to all kinds of badness.  This patch
basically wraps the psignal() call in a 'kill' command that respects
all necessary locks.

Actually, it isn't very clear exactly which locks it should respect.
The debugger is a special case in this way.  This patch uses the
PROC_TRYLOCK macro; if it fails, the command bails out.  Thus, it
can't use pfind()--the latter automatically does a PROC_LOCK--so it
has to walk the allproc list manually.  It does *not* attempt to get a
shared lock on the allproc list.  There is similar code in db_trace.c,
and it doesn't call sx_slock(), either; I asked jhb about this a while
ago, and all he said was that it is intentional.

Comments?  Suggestions?

Thanks,

Dima Dorfman
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


Index: db_command.c
===
RCS file: /stl/src/FreeBSD/src/sys/ddb/db_command.c,v
retrieving revision 1.36
diff -u -r1.36 db_command.c
--- db_command.c2001/07/08 04:56:05 1.36
+++ db_command.c2001/07/10 07:19:45
@@ -36,7 +36,12 @@
  */
 #include 
 #include 
+#include 
+#include 
+#include 
+#include 
 #include 
+#include 
 #include 
 #include 
 
@@ -62,6 +67,7 @@
 
 static db_cmdfcn_t db_fncall;
 static db_cmdfcn_t db_gdb;
+static db_cmdfcn_t db_kill;
 
 /* XXX this is actually forward-static. */
 extern struct command  db_show_cmds[];
@@ -413,6 +419,7 @@
{ "show",   0,  0,  db_show_cmds },
{ "ps", db_ps,  0,  0 },
{ "gdb",db_gdb, 0,  0 },
+   { "kill",   db_kill,CS_OWN, 0 },
{ (char *)0, }
 };
 
@@ -566,4 +573,44 @@
db_printf("Next trap will enter %s\n",
   boothowto & RB_GDB ? "GDB remote protocol mode"
  : "DDB debugger");
+}
+
+static void
+db_kill(dummy1, dummy2, dummy3, dummy4)
+   db_expr_t   dummy1;
+   boolean_t   dummy2;
+   db_expr_t   dummy3;
+   char *  dummy4;
+{
+   struct proc *p;
+   db_expr_t pid, sig;
+
+#define DB_ERROR(f)do { db_printf f; db_flush_lex(); return; } while (0)
+
+   /* Retrieve arguments. */
+   if (!db_expression(&sig))
+   DB_ERROR(("Missing signal number\n"));
+   if (!db_expression(&pid))
+   DB_ERROR(("Missing process ID\n"));
+   db_skip_to_eol();
+   if (sig < 0 || sig > _SIG_MAXSIG)
+   DB_ERROR(("Signal number out of range\n"));
+
+   /* Find the process in queston. */
+   /* sx_slock(&allproc_lock); */
+   LIST_FOREACH(p, &allproc, p_list)
+   if (p->p_pid == pid)
+   break;
+   /* sx_sunlock(&allproc_lock); */
+   if (p == NULL)
+   DB_ERROR(("Can't find process with pid %d\n", pid));
+
+   /* If it's already locked, bail; otherwise, do the deed. */
+   if (PROC_TRYLOCK(p) == 0)
+   DB_ERROR(("Can't lock process with pid %d\n", pid));
+   else {
+   psignal(p, sig);
+   PROC_UNLOCK(p);
+   }
+#undef DB_ERROR
 }

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