Re: Ion3 removal (Re: Ion3 license violation)

2007-12-12 Thread Tuomo Valkonen
On 2007-12-13, Mark Linimon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Further, note that my initial commit tried to do this, and I asked the
> author if it was acceptable.  It was clear from his reply that it was
> not -- especially considering the following history:

It seemed acceptable wrt. the source package; I was querying the
effect on binary packages.

Also read again what I have written about the Xinerama module.
Why is it not a separate package? What is it disguised as part
of Ion, when it is not?

-- 
Tuomo

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Re: Ion3 removal (Re: Ion3 license violation)

2007-12-12 Thread Tuomo Valkonen
On 2007-12-12, Danny Pansters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The guy was never trying to find any compromise. 

What compromise can be had, when the distros never try to be
constructive?

> Also, it's worth noting that there seems to be no trademark at all, the
> author is under the impression that a trademark doesn't have to be applied
> for 

Trademarks (tm) don't need to be registered (R). Under the Finnish law, 
registered and unregistered trademarks are almost equal; under other 
legislations not necessarily entirely so, but there's still some protection.

> You can't do OSS and be a control freak at the same time. It just doesn't 
> work 
> like that. mlc has handled this exactly how he should have. With a swagger!

As I have mentioned, the powerful distros expect authors to be their
undemanding and unquestioning slaves. "They" were right: FOSS is comm^W
collectivist. There's no room for authors, only a herd -- controlled
by The Par^Wdistros. Authors are supposed to be content with having 
served the "common good" -- i.e. the distros' good.

-- 
Tuomo

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Re: Ion3 removal (Re: Ion3 license violation)]

2007-12-12 Thread Mikhail Teterin
середа 12 грудень 2007 09:49 по, Mark Linimon Ви написали:
> Further, note that my initial commit tried to do this, and I asked the
> author if it was acceptable.  It was clear from his reply that it was
> not -- especially considering the following history:
>
> http://mail-index.netbsd.org/tech-pkg/2007/10/28/.html
>
> Anyone interested in this thread needs to go read that one first.

From Tuomo's own words, it would appear, that Debian porters have found a 
solution, which he finds acceptable...

Maybe, their "pissed-off threshold" is just greater, and they were able to get 
through his fireworks without losing the sight of /their users/, who continue 
to like the software, however frustrating the author's fits...

 -mi
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Re: Ion3 removal (Re: Ion3 license violation)

2007-12-12 Thread Aryeh M. Friedman
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> an't do OSS and be a control freak at the same time. It just
> doesn't work like that. mlc has handled this exactly how he should
> have. With a swagger!

Recent experiences have shown me that this is not necessarly true...
usually the control freak side comes out in "that is a bad idea don't
waste your time" type comments on purposals.
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Re: Ion3 removal (Re: Ion3 license violation)

2007-12-12 Thread Steven Hartland
- Original Message - 
From: "Mark Linimon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>




On Wed, Dec 12, 2007 at 08:12:17PM -0600, Mark Linimon wrote:

http://mail-index.netbsd.org/tech-pkg/2007/10/28/.html

Anyone interested in this thread needs to go read that one first.


As well as http://www.archlinux.org/pipermail/tur-users/2007-April/004634.html,
which contains the history of the author's legal threat against ArchLinux.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_%28window_manager%29#Controversy

   Regards
   Steve


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Re: Ion3 removal (Re: Ion3 license violation)

2007-12-12 Thread Mark Linimon
It was pulled from Debian, as well:

http://packages.qa.debian.org/i/ion3/news/20070310T233909Z.html

As far as I'm concerned, the matter is closed.  When 4 different* OS groups
come to the same conclusion, I think there's not much else to say.

mcl

* pkgsrc, ArchLinux, Debian, and now FreeBSD
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Re: results of ports re-engineering survey

2007-12-12 Thread Chuck Robey

Aryeh M. Friedman wrote:

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*PLEASE ONLY REPLY TO ME OR [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Omigod!!

For Gods sake, could you PLEASE not have folks reply to the list!  We 
have been sufficiently bombarded with this already.  If you must have 
the replies public, then send them to freebsd-chat, but plesae stop 
polluting the list (as you are clearly asking people to do above).




A few disclaimers:

Neither I or anyone else is asking for FreeBSD to incorparate any
modifications to the current base system and/or ports collection.   If
and when any code is developed from this process it will be committed
using normal commit and review processes.

The following summary of results is based on my eyeballing of
answers and should not be interpreted as being any sort of
mathematically and/or scientifically valid in any manner.

Number of responses: roughly 30

Summary of results:

1. Most respondents stated that both the underlaying OS and the ports
collection are equally important.   When a preference was shown it was
for the underlaying OS in most cases.

2. On average people tend to interact with the port system once or
twice a week

3. The single best aspect of the ports system according to respondents
is dependency tracking when installing new ports

4. The single worst aspect of the ports system according to
respondents is dependency tracking when updating or deleting existing
ports

5. Most respondents would not change there answers tothe survey if
they where new to FreeBSD

6. Almost all respondents would use a new system if it fixed their
personal worst aspect of the current system

7. About 50% of respondents would use a new system if it broke the
best aspect of the ports system but fixed the worst aspect

8. Length of FreeBSD usage: rough avr. of 8 years with roughly 3 year
std. dev.

9. Prefered install method: ports

10. Usage roughly evenly spread among desktop, development and servers

11. Subsystem ratings (rough avr's):

UI: 6
Constancy: 9
Dependancy tracking: 7
Record keeping: 9
Granularity: 9

12. Most users are either sysadmins and/or developers

Orginial Survey:

As has been hashed out in -ports@ over the last few days there is at
least a need to examine weither or not the current ports system should
remain as is or potentially be re-engineered in the future (estimates
if and when needed vary from ASAP to 10-15 years).   I have
volunteered to undertake a feasibility/pilot project to examine what
changes (if any) are needed in the system (for the purposes of this
thread I will not venture any of my own suggestions).   I have the
following broad questions for people:

1. What is more important to your personal use of FreeBSD (the ports
system, the underlaying OS, some other aspect)?

2. How frequently do you interact with the ports systems and what is
the most common interaction you have with it?

3. What is the single best aspect of the current system?

4. What is the single worst aspect of the current system?

5. If you where a new FreeBSD user how would your answers above
change?   If you where brand new to UNIX how whould they change?

6. Assuming that there was no additional work on your behalf would you
use a new system if it corrected your answer to number 4?

7. Same as question 6 but for your answer on question 3?

8. How long have you used FreeBSD and/or UNIX in general?

9.  That is your primary use(s) for your FreeBSD machine(s) (name upto 3)?

10. Assuming there is no functional difference what is your preferred
installation method for 3rd party software?

11. On a scale from 1 to 10 (10 being the best) please rate the
importance of the following aspects of the ports system?

  a. User Interface
  b. Consistency of behaviors and interactions
  c. Accuracy in dependant port installations
  d. Internal record keeping
  e. Granularity's of the port management system

12. Please rate your personal technical skill level?
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Re: scope of the port re-engineering project

2007-12-12 Thread Philipp Ost

Aryeh M. Friedman wrote:
[...]

c. Attempt to unify all methods of FreeBSD software installation into
a single system
d. Same as c but for all BSD like OS's


Wouldn't you clone pkgsrc if you decide on going for d.?


Philipp
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Re: FreeBSD Port: enlightenment-20070223_1,1

2007-12-12 Thread 徐三泰
you can try http://people.freebsd.org/~vanilla/e.tgz

I sended this patch to stas@ about 3 month ago.

2007/12/12, Lance Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> Hi,
> I see from the FreeBSD ports page that you are the maintainer of the
> Enlightenment package and I was just wondering if there were any plans for
> an update.
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Lance
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Re: Ion3 removal (Re: Ion3 license violation)

2007-12-12 Thread Wesley Shields
On Wed, Dec 12, 2007 at 07:56:13PM -0500, Bill Moran wrote:
> Mikhail Teterin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >  12 ?? 2007 06:35 , Bill Moran  
> > :
> > > It's his software. ??If his requirements can't be met, then the port comes
> > > out of the tree. ??What else do you expect to happen?
> > 
> > I expect the port-removal to be initiated/done in an orderly fashion. This 
> > includes marking it FORBIDDEN (or IGNORE, or BROKEN):
> > 
> >  FORBIDDEN= Violates licensing requirements of the author
> > 
> > and:
> > 
> >  EXPIRATION_DATE=<>
> > 
> > This would give those people, whom you expect to submit patches, some time 
> > to, 
> > actually, create them... Only if nothing materializes by the expiration 
> > date, 
> > should the port be deleted.
> 
> It's absolutely a shame that couldn't be done, but he demanded that the
> port be fixed prior to release.  Without a fix to hand, the only way to
> guarantee that FreeBSD wouldn't be in violation of the license agreement
> was to pull the port.
> 
> Generate a patch and submit it.  I'm sure the port will be reinstated as
> soon as somebody does so.

I am one of those users of Ion and after reading this thread I went and
looked around at alternatives, only to find out that I still liked Ion
the best.  I was willing to submit patches to bring the port in line
with Tuomo's wishes, until I read:
http://www.archlinux.org/pipermail/tur-users/2007-April/004634.html

My understanding of this thread is that if xinerama option is enabled
the package name must be changed to indicate it is not an official
release.  Apparently changing the package name to be
ion-OMG-YOU-ENABLED-XINERAMA-THIS-IS-NOT-A-SUPPORTED-PACKAGE is not
acceptable by him.  It is at this point that I decided his requests will
not be able to be met within the ports framework and it's better left
off dead.

I'll be maintaining my own copy of the port for my personal use, but I
don't see how the port can ever be revived given the statements he has
made in the link given above.  Let it die, please.

-- WXS
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Re: Ion3 removal (Re: Ion3 license violation)

2007-12-12 Thread Mark Linimon
On Wed, Dec 12, 2007 at 08:12:17PM -0600, Mark Linimon wrote:
> http://mail-index.netbsd.org/tech-pkg/2007/10/28/.html
> 
> Anyone interested in this thread needs to go read that one first.

As well as http://www.archlinux.org/pipermail/tur-users/2007-April/004634.html,
which contains the history of the author's legal threat against ArchLinux.

mcl
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Re: Ion3 removal (Re: Ion3 license violation)

2007-12-12 Thread Danny Pansters
On Wednesday 12 December 2007 23:01:57 Mikhail Teterin wrote:
> > The simple fact is that Tuomo has some strange desire to blame packagers
> > for all his problems with software and users.
>
> Yes, license-crafting lawyers are usually more polite and don't engage in
> direct communications with forums such as ours. Their licenses suck much
> more, however -- think Java, cdrtools, or Skype, and all the other
> closed-source packages. Put Tuomo's demands in perspective, for crying out
> loud...
>
> > It's impossible for the FreeBSD ports system to guarantee compliance with
> > his arbitrarily chosen "28 days" rule.  If he's going to demand that his
> > terms be followed, then it has to come out of the ports.
>
> Actually, it can be done -- when building the port, the date on the
> distfile (or that on the most recent source-file /extracted/ therefrom) can
> be checked against the current date and a prominent message can be issued
> warning of possible obsoleteness (sp?)...
>
> I just wish we avoided the rash decisions like "let's remove everything
> written by the guy we don't like NOW" -- if only in the name of "ports
> slush"... In the hurry to spite the admittedly unpleasant-sounding author,
> the needs and expectations of the users were neglected.

Google a bit:

ArchLinux (well, it was in the user-submitted "ports tree" that they have), 
Gentoo, Debian/ubuntu, NetBSD, OpenBSD. The latter had a pre license-change 
version and it was decided to stick with that. The others dumped it.

The guy was never trying to find any compromise. He wants to go close sourced 
or something and "move to windows xp in a few years", on which apparently 
there's a need for his software. 

Also, it's worth noting that there seems to be no trademark at all, the author 
is under the impression that a trademark doesn't have to be applied for (of 
course that goes for copyright, not trademarks). This is from early in the ML 
thread over at Archlinux, dated april 2007. 

The guy's got a huge grudge or something, maybe even a serious mental problem 
(that is not meant as hyperbole -- look through some of the above "distros" 
ML archives).

You can't do OSS and be a control freak at the same time. It just doesn't work 
like that. mlc has handled this exactly how he should have. With a swagger!

I promise not to reply to this thread any more :)

Dan

> I've never used ion, but, judging from some responses here, it is an
> appreciated piece of software.
>
>  -mi
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Re: Ion3 removal (Re: Ion3 license violation)

2007-12-12 Thread Mark Linimon
On Wed, Dec 12, 2007 at 07:30:46PM -0500, Mikhail Teterin wrote:
> I expect the port-removal to be initiated/done in an orderly fashion.

Claims of license violations absolutely trump any "process requirements".
portmgr has the explicit task of keeping the Ports Collection in as
best a legal state as possible.

Further, note that my initial commit tried to do this, and I asked the
author if it was acceptable.  It was clear from his reply that it was
not -- especially considering the following history:

http://mail-index.netbsd.org/tech-pkg/2007/10/28/.html

Anyone interested in this thread needs to go read that one first.

mcl
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Re: xmule port

2007-12-12 Thread Mario Sergio Fujikawa Ferreira

Hi,


I have noticed that xMule has been removed from our ports tree.
Could someone say me why? I uses xmule and worked for me, but now i  
cant install it from ports.


  I removed it due to lack of development. The last update happened on 
09/11/2006, more than a year ago. Since the de facto standard for 
edonkey p2p communication is emule, a client is of no help if it does 
not follow emule's development.


  xmule implements none of the last year worth of emule protocol 
development. You are better off trying either net-p2p/amule or 
net-p2p/mldonkey (which I personally recommend).


  If you still want to use xmule, I'll revive the port with no maintainer.

  Regards,

--
Mario S F Ferreira - DF - Brazil - "I guess this is a signature."
feature, n: a documented bug | bug, n: an undocumented feature

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Re: Ion3 removal (Re: Ion3 license violation)

2007-12-12 Thread Beech Rintoul
On Wednesday 12 December 2007, Mikhail Teterin said:
> > The simple fact is that Tuomo has some strange desire to blame
> > packagers for all his problems with software and users.
>
> Yes, license-crafting lawyers are usually more polite and don't
> engage in direct communications with forums such as ours. Their
> licenses suck much more, however -- think Java, cdrtools, or Skype,
> and all the other closed-source packages. Put Tuomo's demands in
> perspective, for crying out loud...

Lets not pick on Skype. While they may be closed source, they are very 
accommodating and interested in FreeBSD and FreeBSD users. They 
certainly don't put unreasonable demands on me as maintainer or the 
FreeBSD Project itself. I have direct access to their developers and 
they in fact rolled the new OSS version mostly for our benefit. There 
are no "28 day or rename it something else" provisions anywhere in 
their license. That to me is a completely unreasonable demand.

Beech




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---
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Re: Ion3 removal (Re: Ion3 license violation)

2007-12-12 Thread Bill Moran
Mikhail Teterin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> середа 12 грудень 2007 06:35 по, Bill Moran Ви написали:
> > It's his software.  If his requirements can't be met, then the port comes
> > out of the tree.  What else do you expect to happen?
> 
> I expect the port-removal to be initiated/done in an orderly fashion. This 
> includes marking it FORBIDDEN (or IGNORE, or BROKEN):
> 
>  FORBIDDEN= Violates licensing requirements of the author
> 
> and:
> 
>  EXPIRATION_DATE=<>
> 
> This would give those people, whom you expect to submit patches, some time 
> to, 
> actually, create them... Only if nothing materializes by the expiration date, 
> should the port be deleted.

It's absolutely a shame that couldn't be done, but he demanded that the
port be fixed prior to release.  Without a fix to hand, the only way to
guarantee that FreeBSD wouldn't be in violation of the license agreement
was to pull the port.

Generate a patch and submit it.  I'm sure the port will be reinstated as
soon as somebody does so.

-- 
Bill Moran
http://www.potentialtech.com
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Re: Ion3 removal (Re: Ion3 license violation)

2007-12-12 Thread Aryeh M. Friedman
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Mikhail Teterin wrote:
> середа 12 грудень 2007 06:35 по, Bill Moran Ви написали:
>> It's his software.  If his requirements can't be met, then the
>> port comes out of the tree.  What else do you expect to happen?
>
> I expect the port-removal to be initiated/done in an orderly
> fashion. This includes marking it FORBIDDEN (or IGNORE, or BROKEN):
>
>

No who ever did the removal just summarily removed it from the cvs repo.
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Re: Ion3 removal (Re: Ion3 license violation)

2007-12-12 Thread Mikhail Teterin
середа 12 грудень 2007 06:35 по, Bill Moran Ви написали:
> It's his software.  If his requirements can't be met, then the port comes
> out of the tree.  What else do you expect to happen?

I expect the port-removal to be initiated/done in an orderly fashion. This 
includes marking it FORBIDDEN (or IGNORE, or BROKEN):

 FORBIDDEN= Violates licensing requirements of the author

and:

 EXPIRATION_DATE=<>

This would give those people, whom you expect to submit patches, some time to, 
actually, create them... Only if nothing materializes by the expiration date, 
should the port be deleted.

 -mi
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Re: Ion3 removal (Re: Ion3 license violation)

2007-12-12 Thread Edwin Groothuis
On Wed, Dec 12, 2007 at 11:42:31PM +, Tuomo Valkonen wrote:
> Since when have I been part of some purported "community"? There's 
> just me, a handful of other people with some traces of sanity, and

See, that's the problem! Only some traces of sanity left in there...

I'll spell it out in little words with at most two parts:

- You wanted ion-3 to be gone from the FreeBSD ports tree because
  it failed to comply with your idea of how it should be handled.

- ion-3 is gone from the FreeBSD ports tree.

You won!

Now go back to your cave until the winter is over and you can get
rid of your (three part word, be warned ->) hormones.

Edwin

-- 
Edwin Groothuis  |Personal website: http://www.mavetju.org
[EMAIL PROTECTED]|  Weblog: http://www.mavetju.org/weblog/
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Re: Ion3 removal (Re: Ion3 license violation)

2007-12-12 Thread Tuomo Valkonen
On 2007-12-12, Bill Moran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> There are far too many quality hackers out there who _do_ care about the
> community to tolerate one who seems to be in conflict with his community.

Since when have I been part of some purported "community"? There's 
just me, a handful of other people with some traces of sanity, and
a herd that keeps turning FOSS and *nix into a big pile of steaming
shit. That's not a community. Maybe the herd feels they're one, but
I'm not in it.

-- 
Tuomo

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Re: Ion3 removal (Re: Ion3 license violation)

2007-12-12 Thread Bill Moran
Mikhail Teterin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > The simple fact is that Tuomo has some strange desire to blame packagers
> > for all his problems with software and users.
> 
> Yes, license-crafting lawyers are usually more polite and don't engage in 
> direct communications with forums such as ours. Their licenses suck much 
> more, however -- think Java, cdrtools, or Skype, and all the other 
> closed-source packages. Put Tuomo's demands in perspective, for crying out 
> loud...

What perspective?  The port does not meet his license requirements.  Nobody
has submitted patches to make it meet said requirements.  The project has
to remove it.  What perspective do I have to keep?

Oh, you mean the part where he comes onto the FreeBSD lists and insults all
the hard-working ports maintainers?  Sure, I'll keep that in perspective.

> > It's impossible for the FreeBSD ports system to guarantee compliance with
> > his arbitrarily chosen "28 days" rule.  If he's going to demand that his
> > terms be followed, then it has to come out of the ports.
> 
> Actually, it can be done -- when building the port, the date on the distfile 
> (or that on the most recent source-file /extracted/ therefrom) can be checked 
> against the current date and a prominent message can be issued warning of 
> possible obsoleteness (sp?)...

Sure.  As I already stated: please submit a patch.

Without someone who actually cares enough to patch the port, it must be
removed do to license problems.  This is _no_ different than any other port
with similar conflicts between licensing and available manpower to meet
those licensing requirements.  The _only_ difference is that Tuomo thought
it necessary to come onto our lists and make a big stink about it, filling
my inbox to overflowing.

> I just wish we avoided the rash decisions like "let's remove everything 
> written by the guy we don't like NOW" -- if only in the name of "ports 
> slush"... In the hurry to spite the admittedly unpleasant-sounding author, 
> the needs and expectations of the users were neglected.

Well, I said that because the guy irritates me.  Let me be clear on this
point.

I maintain a few ports.  I am _NOT_ in a position to dictate policy, I was
only stating my opinion -- which _MUST_ not be construed to be the overall
opinion of the FreeBSD community.

There are far too many quality hackers out there who _do_ care about the
community to tolerate one who seems to be in conflict with his community.

> I've never used ion, but, judging from some responses here, it is an 
> appreciated piece of software.

Fair enough.  In that case, those who appreciate it should submit patches
that meet Tuomo's requirements.  This is how it's done.  This is how it's
_always_ been done.  If the original maintainer is no longer keeping up
with the software, then someone else needs to step up.

It's his software.  If his requirements can't be met, then the port comes
out of the tree.  What else do you expect to happen?

-- 
Bill Moran
http://www.potentialtech.com
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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Doug Barton
David E. Thiel wrote:

> Or simply use any of the freely available, cleanly licensed and more
> functional alternatives, many of which are written by programmers
> posessing an at least marginal semblance of sanity:

Sorry David, but I'm going to pick on this reply as an example of a more
general case.

It ought to be possible for us to discuss these issues without resorting
to ad hominem attacks. Even if we may personally find someone's
perspective unreasonable, the question for public discussion is _only_
whether the software author's license/perspective/demands are compatible
with the FreeBSD ports system. If the answer is "no," then no harm, no
foul, everyone moves on with their lives. Regardless of the outcome
however it is a hard and fast requirement that we conduct ourselves as
professionals, especially if we feel compelled to criticize another
party for not doing so.

I've written three original pieces of software for FreeBSD now, and even
though I have complete control over the software itself, and the ports
for the 2 in the ports tree, I still get a non-trivial number of what I
will politely refer to as "wacky user questions." Therefore I have a
certain amount of sympathy with Tuomo's position here. I think it's
unfortunate that we could not reach an accommodation for this particular
case, but I wish Tuomo the best of luck in his future endeavors.

Doug

PS, I do not in any way wish to discourage users from sending me
questions about my stuff, although I find that not-infrequently my reply
is, "You might want to give the man page another look ..." :)

-- 

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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread David E. Thiel
On Wed, Dec 12, 2007 at 08:01:27PM +0100, Stefan Sperling wrote:
> > I really don't see why the extreme action of removing it from ports was 
> > necessary. :sigh:
> 
> An alternative is to simply keep the last released version
> that had a sane license.

Or simply use any of the freely available, cleanly licensed and more
functional alternatives, many of which are written by programmers
posessing an at least marginal semblance of sanity:

- wmii
- dwm
- xmonad
- larswm
- awesome (my personal favorite)

They all have their cranky peculiarities, but at least the authors
aren't balls-out insane, and don't habitually harass OS distributors
with their paranoid ravings. There's no reason to use ion anymore, much
less let an old version rot in the ports tree. If people still want to
for some reason, they can just keep a copy of the old port or build it
from scratch.

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Ion3 removal (Re: Ion3 license violation)

2007-12-12 Thread Mikhail Teterin
> The simple fact is that Tuomo has some strange desire to blame packagers
> for all his problems with software and users.

Yes, license-crafting lawyers are usually more polite and don't engage in 
direct communications with forums such as ours. Their licenses suck much 
more, however -- think Java, cdrtools, or Skype, and all the other 
closed-source packages. Put Tuomo's demands in perspective, for crying out 
loud...

> It's impossible for the FreeBSD ports system to guarantee compliance with
> his arbitrarily chosen "28 days" rule.  If he's going to demand that his
> terms be followed, then it has to come out of the ports.

Actually, it can be done -- when building the port, the date on the distfile 
(or that on the most recent source-file /extracted/ therefrom) can be checked 
against the current date and a prominent message can be issued warning of 
possible obsoleteness (sp?)...

I just wish we avoided the rash decisions like "let's remove everything 
written by the guy we don't like NOW" -- if only in the name of "ports 
slush"... In the hurry to spite the admittedly unpleasant-sounding author, 
the needs and expectations of the users were neglected.

I've never used ion, but, judging from some responses here, it is an 
appreciated piece of software.

 -mi
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Re: Read-only ports, but shared distfiles ...

2007-12-12 Thread Edwin Groothuis
On Wed, Dec 12, 2007 at 05:12:52PM -0400, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
>   I have my /etc/make.conf setup as:
> 
> DISTDIR=/home/ports/distfiles
> WRKDIRPREFIX=/home/ports
> INDEXDIR=/home/ports
> 
>   so that any distfiles that need to be downloaded, can be ... but, is there 
> some way I can set thing sup so that anything that already exists *in* 
> /usr/ports/distfiles will get used before downloading a whole new copy?

You might want to try CD_MOUNTPTS, or
MASTER_SITE_OVERRIDE=file:/usr/ports/distfiles/${DIST_SUBDIR},
and FETCH_SYMLINK_DISTFILES

Edwin
-- 
Edwin Groothuis  |Personal website: http://www.mavetju.org
[EMAIL PROTECTED]|  Weblog: http://www.mavetju.org/weblog/
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Read-only ports, but shared distfiles ...

2007-12-12 Thread Marc G. Fournier
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


Hi ...

  I have my /etc/make.conf setup as:

DISTDIR=/home/ports/distfiles
WRKDIRPREFIX=/home/ports
INDEXDIR=/home/ports

  so that any distfiles that need to be downloaded, can be ... but, is there 
some way I can set thing sup so that anything that already exists *in* 
/usr/ports/distfiles will get used before downloading a whole new copy?

Thanks ...

- 
Marc G. Fournier   Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email . [EMAIL PROTECTED]  MSN . [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Yahoo . yscrappy   Skype: hub.orgICQ . 7615664
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Port marked as IGNORE: security/krb5

2007-12-12 Thread Joachim Bethke

Hallo,

for a few weeks i become this error message "** Port marked as IGNORE: 
security/krb5:
   is marked as broken: fails to install". If i uncomment this in 
Makefile I can not install postfix with kerberos.

Is there a solution for this problem ?

Thanks for help

Joachim
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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Johan van Selst
Stefan Sperling wrote:
> An alternative is to simply keep the last released version
> that had a sane license. AFAIK OpenBSD did that, see:
> http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-ports&m=119522869306969&w=2

Sounds like a fair solution.


Ciao,
Johan


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Re: scope of the port re-engineering project

2007-12-12 Thread Aryeh M. Friedman
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Stephen Montgomery-Smith wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Aryeh M. Friedman wrote:
>
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Stephen Montgomery-Smith wrote:
>>> Aryeh M. Friedman wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1

>>> I'm not sure what the words "refactor" and "recode" mean here.
>>
>> Refacoring is to use the existing framework and make tweaks to it.
>> Recoding is to start with a fresh piece of paper and see what emerges.
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> If you really do all the heavy lifting, it is something I will
>>> admire. Not least because you might do all this work and find
>>> people are too conservative to use it.
>>>
>>
>> I have my own personal reasons for wanting to do most of the work my
>> self (prototype for a commerical package I am looking at developing...
>> note there will be no functional diff between the two systems just the
>> addition of some smoothing of rough UI edges in the commerical one)

Forgot to mention the target platform for the commercial tool is not
any variant of Unix (though it could be ported trivially)
>>
>
> If I were going to do this (and I most certainly am not!) I would
> opt for the recoding from scratch, but doing so in a very backwards
> compatible fashion.  I would create a framework in which ports could
> be created with configuration files similar to, but more
> straightforward, to the current "Makefile"s.

The only requirement I consider to be in stone right now is "100%
backwards compatibility"
>
> Then I would work hard on creating a script that automatically
> converts the existing ports into the new ports system.

That will have to be worked out in detail but obviously some
conversion tool is needed.
>
> This means that people should be free to switch to your system
> whenever they like.  Most people will keep using the existing system
> because of fear (and reasonable fear) that your new system will have
> a lot of bugs (that any new project will have) and that it might
> even ultimately fail. Then if your system really is noticeably
> superior, people will begin switching to yours and eventually the
> existing structure will fall to the wayside.

I never expected a wholesale switch over even though the details are
not clear yet I expect the two to live side by side several years at
least.
>
> One more thing.  I personally am very impressed with the existing
> structure of "var/db/pkg."  If you can preserve that as well, then
> people will be able to switch back and forth willy nilly, and they
> will be even more willing to try out your system.

That is part of backwards compatibility.
>
>
> Finally, don't get depressed when (or if) you roll out your new
> system, that it has a lot of problems and/or detractors.  Remember,
> for example, those early ugly days when Netscape had just been made
> open-source, and it looked likely to bite the dust.  And now it is
> threatening IE!  And even if your new system doesn't get adopted,
> when FreeBSD does eventually get a complete rehaul of the ports,
> many of your ideas will be there.

Part of the reason for the drawn out process vs. me just getting in
there and hacking code is attempting to make those mistakes as cost
efficient as possible.
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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Bill Moran
In response to Tuomo Valkonen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> On 2007-12-12, Bill Moran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > It's impossible for the FreeBSD ports system to guarantee compliance with
> > his arbitrarily chosen "28 days" rule.  
> 
> There is no "28 days" rule. There is a "latest release in 28 days or
> prominently mark (potentially) obsolete" rule. You can make the marking
> permanent, always requiring users to acknowledge a message. You can 
> make the marking automatic, by checking the website for a new release
> (as Debian presently does), or by some more sophisticated means or dead
> man triggers.

There you go.  I had no idea it would be this easy.

Please open a PR and attach a patch.

-- 
Bill Moran
http://www.potentialtech.com
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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Edwin Groothuis
On Wed, Dec 12, 2007 at 07:59:34PM +, Tuomo Valkonen wrote:
> Even if I made the number 280 days, distros would still complain. It's

It's not so much that distributions complain, it's more the author
of the software who has a set of misconnected wires in his head.

Edwin
-- 
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Re: scope of the port re-engineering project

2007-12-12 Thread Stephen Montgomery-Smith



On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Aryeh M. Friedman wrote:


-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Stephen Montgomery-Smith wrote:

Aryeh M. Friedman wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1


I'm not sure what the words "refactor" and "recode" mean here.


Refacoring is to use the existing framework and make tweaks to it.
Recoding is to start with a fresh piece of paper and see what emerges.


...

If you really do all the heavy lifting, it is something I will
admire. Not least because you might do all this work and find
people are too conservative to use it.



I have my own personal reasons for wanting to do most of the work my
self (prototype for a commerical package I am looking at developing...
note there will be no functional diff between the two systems just the
addition of some smoothing of rough UI edges in the commerical one)


If I were going to do this (and I most certainly am not!) I would opt for 
the recoding from scratch, but doing so in a very backwards compatible 
fashion.  I would create a framework in which ports could be created with 
configuration files similar to, but more straightforward, to the current 
"Makefile"s.


Then I would work hard on creating a script that automatically converts 
the existing ports into the new ports system.


This means that people should be free to switch to your system whenever 
they like.  Most people will keep using the existing system because of 
fear (and reasonable fear) that your new system will have a lot of bugs 
(that any new project will have) and that it might even ultimately fail. 
Then if your system really is noticeably superior, people will begin 
switching to yours and eventually the existing structure will fall to the 
wayside.


One more thing.  I personally am very impressed with the existing 
structure of "var/db/pkg."  If you can preserve that as well, then people 
will be able to switch back and forth willy nilly, and they will be even 
more willing to try out your system.


Finally, don't get depressed when (or if) you roll out your new system, 
that it has a lot of problems and/or detractors.  Remember, for example, 
those early ugly days when Netscape had just been made open-source, and it 
looked likely to bite the dust.  And now it is threatening IE!  And even 
if your new system doesn't get adopted, when FreeBSD does eventually get 
a complete rehaul of the ports, many of your ideas will be there.


But I am getting ahead of myself.  I'll wait until you have the product 
before doing more cheerleading.


Stephen

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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Tuomo Valkonen
On 2007-12-12, Bill Moran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If you were watching, why didn't you point this out back at the
> beginning of the ports freeze?

What makes you think I'd been watching that long?

Don't you people read the licenses of the software you distribute?

> Either you didn't understand Russell's comment

... or you haven't read the license.

> Remind the voices that FreeBSD isn't a Linux distro, and maybe they'll
> start feeding you accurate information instead of making you look insane.

It's a distribution of various third party software. You may split hairs
by insisting that "FreeBSD ports" is the distribution, but it is still 
a distribution. (There are no "Linux" distributions either: there are
"GNU/Linux" distributions, if you get into hair-splitting.)

-- 
Tuomo

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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Tuomo Valkonen
On 2007-12-12, Bill Moran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It's impossible for the FreeBSD ports system to guarantee compliance with
> his arbitrarily chosen "28 days" rule.  

There is no "28 days" rule. There is a "latest release in 28 days or
prominently mark (potentially) obsolete" rule. You can make the marking
permanent, always requiring users to acknowledge a message. You can 
make the marking automatic, by checking the website for a new release
(as Debian presently does), or by some more sophisticated means or dead
man triggers. You may not be able to distribute such binary packages 
with your present setup, but source should be enough. You may even 
simply have the package download and install

http://iki.fi/tuomov/dl/ion-3-latest.tar.gz

(signature in http://iki.fi/tuomov/dl/ion-3-latest.tar.gz.asc).

Even if I made the number 280 days, distros would still complain. It's
not about the days. The greatest difficulty to complying with the 
license are the idealist blockages in your head.

-- 
Tuomo

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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Bill Moran
In response to Tuomo Valkonen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> On 2007-12-12, Russell Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Damn it. I use this software, and I even feel somewhat responsible 
> 
> Don't worry, you're not responsible (much). I'd been monitoring the
> situation having heard of a ports freeze, and nothing having been
> done to mark the Ion package as (potentially) obsolete or anything.
> Not much asked, but it seems distros don't like to admit that they 
> distribute obsolete and buggy software.

Translation: Tuomo was just waiting around in the hopes that he could
start bitching and cause trouble.  He could have pre-emptivly offered
his assistance to ensure that the FreeBSD ports tree didn't drift too
far out of sync, but instead he just waited around until the opportune
moment to start bitching and crying like a baby.

If you were watching, why didn't you point this out back at the
beginning of the ports freeze?

> > I wasn't running the version in ports CVS. I was running a modified local
> > port that did pull the latest ion sources. I also had to explicitly enable
> > mod_xinerama with a make define; so, it isn't part of the the binary
> > package or a default port install.
> 
> The option doesn't seem Ion-specific and isn't documented to add 
> unsupported features. A much better place for the module would in 
> any case be, say, x11-wm/ion-3-extras/mod_shit-o-rama. You could 
> also have mod_xrandr, mod_ionflux, and etc. under that kind of 
> setup. There's no reason why the module should deceivingly (and 
> inconveniently) be distributed hidden "within" the ion-3 package.

Either you didn't understand Russell's comment, or you're so bent on
blaming folks problems on "distro folks" that you're redirecting
the conversation in an attempt to prove your point, whatever it is.

> > I really don't see why the extreme action of removing it from ports was
> > necessary. :sigh:
> 
> Distro folks are not reasonable; they think authors should be their
> undemanding and unquestioning slaves. I think we have learned that 
> already.

Who's we?  You and all the voices in your head?

Remind the voices that FreeBSD isn't a Linux distro, and maybe they'll
start feeding you accurate information instead of making you look insane.

-- 
Bill Moran
http://www.potentialtech.com
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Re: scope of the port re-engineering project

2007-12-12 Thread Aryeh M. Friedman
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Philipp Ost wrote:
> Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: [...]
>> c. Attempt to unify all methods of FreeBSD software installation
>> into a single system d. Same as c but for all BSD like OS's
>
> Wouldn't you clone pkgsrc if you decide on going for d.?
>

Most likelly not since I understand it has many of same flaws ports
does due to its common lineage
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Re: scope of the port re-engineering project

2007-12-12 Thread Aryeh M. Friedman
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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Stephen Montgomery-Smith wrote:
> Aryeh M. Friedman wrote:
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Disclaimer:
>>
>> This does not commit me, anyone else and/or FreeBSD to an course
>> of action nor does it imply such a commitment.
>>
>> Assuming that the following is true:
>>
>> 1. There is a "proven" need to re-engineer the ports system as
>> demostrated by posts to -ports@ and the results of the survey on
>> re-engineering the ports system
>>
>> 2. Any system will correct your own personal "worst aspect" of
>> the ports system but will not do so at the expense of breaking
>> any high level functionality
>>
>> Please answer the following questions:
>>
>> 1. Using the items listed in the next section please select the
>> best scope of the project assuming that 100% backwards
>> compatibility with the current ports system is maintained?
>>
>> 2. Using the items listed in the next section please select the
>> best scope of the project assuming that 100% backwards
>> compatibility with the current ports system is *NOT* maintained?
>>
>> Possible project scopes:
>>
>> a. Refactor the current system only b. Redesign and recoding of
>> the current system c. Attempt to unify all methods of FreeBSD
>> software installation into a single system d. Same as c but for
>> all BSD like OS's
>
> I'm not sure what the words "refactor" and "recode" mean here.

Refacoring is to use the existing framework and make tweaks to it.
Recoding is to start with a fresh piece of paper and see what emerges.
>
> If I had lots of time on my hands, I think I would redo ports
> _without_ using "make" as its primary scripting tool.  Mind you,
> I'm not sure what I would use in its place - perhaps its own
> scripting tool written from scratch? The difficulty with using
> "make" is that it isn't linear.  For example (and this was my
> bugbear), to figure out "make -V PKGNAME" the program has to read
> and process every single line of the makefile, including all of its
> ".includes".  And while perhaps this issue is a bit frivolous,
> nevertheless I bet that this is one of the reasons why people
> creating ports make mistakes setting up the dependencies.

Cook, scons, ant and several other modern dependency tools offer a
good framework for per package methods for handling this (see
Miller97) but as far I can tell there is no good tool that solves this
at the inter-project level and thus the final result would be likely
modeled on one of the above DMT's but would be home grown.

>
> Finally, I really do like the difference between ports and
> packages. Please keep both of the "build from source" and "install
> binaries" capabilities.

Even though we are not in the requirements phase this is one of the
requirements I think is a must I would even go a step further and say
the two should be completely interchangeable (which they aren't right
now... i.e. you use one or the other exclusivally for all packages)
>
>
> If you really do all the heavy lifting, it is something I will
> admire. Not least because you might do all this work and find
> people are too conservative to use it.
>

I have my own personal reasons for wanting to do most of the work my
self (prototype for a commerical package I am looking at developing...
note there will be no functional diff between the two systems just the
addition of some smoothing of rough UI edges in the commerical one)

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Re: results of ports re-engineering survey

2007-12-12 Thread Stephen Montgomery-Smith



On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Paul Schmehl wrote:

--On Wednesday, December 12, 2007 04:38:39 -0500 "Aryeh M. Friedman" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


..while I still want to gather more data to pin down the exact 

requirements

Don't you get it?  You're not GATHERING DATA.  You're eliciting responses 
from a TINY percentage of the people who use FreeBSD and ports and 
*extrapolating* from that tiny sample that 1) something is wrong with ports 
and 2) something actually needs to be done about it.


You haven't even BEGUN to gather data.  Yet you're already moving on to your 
"second phase"!


Furthermore, you take it upon yourself to insult the very people who actually 
*do* write the code and make this thing work while polluting this list (and 
several others as well) with stuff that *very few* (very few is defined as 
less than 1% of the readership which represents perhaps 1% of the total users 
of FreeBSD) people care about.


And you wonder why others' patience grows short?  Have you even noticed that 
the sharpest criticism of your "ideas" has all come from people with 
"@freebsd.org" in their email address?  Do you know what it takes to get one 
of those?


Please, please, spare us all the pain.  Go write some code.  Submit a PR. 
Then argue the validity of your code on the developer's list.




Although I was one who was initially critical of Aryeh, I must admit that 
I am becoming puzzled as to why his initiative is attracting such 
hostility.  I can understand people being dismissive of his efforts, but 
not the hostility.


Aryeh has made it extremely clear what his goals are, and at worst all it 
will be is a failed project, and at best it might really contribute. 
People are saying again and again that they want to see the code, but he 
has said that he plans to do the heavy lifting by himself, and it should 
be obvious that he has taken on a very ambitious plan and code won't be 
seen for quite a while.


Next, I don't get all this talk about the need for his data to satisfy 
some kind of significance test.  Even professional polsters find this task 
extremely difficult and expensive.  Obviously all Aryeh is trying to do is 
to get some anecdotal evidence.  And in his situation I would say 
that (a) it is by far the best he can hope for, and (b) certainly has 
potential to be extremely useful.


Come on guys, get off his back.  You might disagree with him, but his 
comments are most certainly relevant to this mailing list.  Kill the 
message, but don't kill the messenger.

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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Tuomo Valkonen
On 2007-12-12, Russell Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Damn it. I use this software, and I even feel somewhat responsible 

Don't worry, you're not responsible (much). I'd been monitoring the
situation having heard of a ports freeze, and nothing having been
done to mark the Ion package as (potentially) obsolete or anything.
Not much asked, but it seems distros don't like to admit that they 
distribute obsolete and buggy software.

> I wasn't running the version in ports CVS. I was running a modified local
> port that did pull the latest ion sources. I also had to explicitly enable
> mod_xinerama with a make define; so, it isn't part of the the binary
> package or a default port install.

The option doesn't seem Ion-specific and isn't documented to add 
unsupported features. A much better place for the module would in 
any case be, say, x11-wm/ion-3-extras/mod_shit-o-rama. You could 
also have mod_xrandr, mod_ionflux, and etc. under that kind of 
setup. There's no reason why the module should deceivingly (and 
inconveniently) be distributed hidden "within" the ion-3 package.

> I really don't see why the extreme action of removing it from ports was
> necessary. :sigh:

Distro folks are not reasonable; they think authors should be their
undemanding and unquestioning slaves. I think we have learned that 
already.

-- 
Tuomo

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Re: results of ports re-engineering survey

2007-12-12 Thread Aryeh M. Friedman
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Ade Lovett wrote:
>
> On Dec 12, 2007, at 01:38 , Aryeh M. Friedman wrote:
>> First of all excuse my language but I have about had it with
>> certain people...
>
> Presumably that would be me.

While your the main one your not the only one.
>
>> where the *HELL* do you get the idea that I am attempting to get
>> other people to do the heavy lifting or have you not learned a
>> single f***'ing thing from the last 30 years of software
>> engineering (i.e. involve the user from the very beginning)..
>
> And you've involved, at best, 1% of the user base.  More likely
> 0.01%.  Do we need to talk statistics again?

Did you read the disclaimer where I specifically state that no
mathematical/scientific validity should be placed on the results.
Translation for the literal minded: I have made no claims that these
results are in any way representative of the community as a whole only
that they are representative of the people who elected to respond
(which is clearly not a random sample and thus could not be considered
to statistically valid no matter the sample size [unless the sample
size is proven to be the same as the population which is impossible
due to no existing user census of FreeBSD])
>
>
>> I said right in the f***'ing disclaimer that this is not an
>> attempt to get permission from anyone to do anything and/or any
>> type of project plan as of yet it is *ONLY* an attempt to define
>> the problem so that a good (instead of one I "think" is good)
>> solution can be designed
>
> I have yet to see any coherent definition that a problem even
> exists.  That's not to say the current situation is perfect, it
> certainly isn't.  Those of "us" that have dealt with the ports tree
>  for any length of time are well aware of its shortcomings.  We're
> also well aware that making anything but baby-step changes along a
> larger path is destined to failure.

1. One of the goals of the survey was to determine if any further work
was warrented and clearly it is.

2. Using fairly standard software architicure methods enumerating what
problems are being solved in detail is usually done after the need for
the project is established and the second was the only goal of the
survey.   The next steps are:

a. Decide on the scope of the project
b. Gather detailed requirements
c. Produce a very light weight design (with assumption it is just
to structure the thought process and not to be the final implimented
design)
d. Begin implementation and testing (at the same time instead of
in sequence)
e. Iterate over c & d until something is testable by the larger
user community
f. After substantial field testing decide what role, if any,
FreeBSD will have in the final implementation of the project
>
> Now, if y'all have concrete and plausible solutions for actual
> problems, we're all ears.  But in the meantime, it's just another
> re-run of "this sucks, it can be done better", without any concrete
>  *proof* of the latter.

How exactly do you purpose to do that with out a complete
understanding of the issues involved first and since personal
experience always varies and illuminates different subsystems it is
critical to gather data beyond ones own experience to understand the
issues
>
> We *know* it can be done better.  We *know* the scaling limits of
> the current system, and most of us are completely amazed it even
> still works.

If you know that and feel that I am doomed to failure then let me
fail... but on the other hand if I succeed then the community will be
enriched... the only thing you're doing in this thread is attempting
to kill the effort before any results can possibelly be shown.
>
>
> If y'all want to make a difference, concepts and ideas we have
> plenty of.  Code talks.
And bad code is worse then no code at all.
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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Bill Moran
In response to Russell Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Russell Jackson wrote:
> > Damn it. I use this software, and I even feel somewhat responsible for 
> > perhaps possibly
> > Tuomo here after I reported a crash under FreeBSD 7 on the ion list that 
> > wound up having
> > something to do with the mod_xinerama extension -- something that I haven't 
> > had time to
> > further look into.

The simple fact is that Tuomo has some strange desire to blame packagers
for all his problems with software and users.  It's impossible for the
FreeBSD ports system to guarantee compliance with his arbitrarily
chosen "28 days" rule.  If he's going to demand that his terms be
followed, then it has to come out of the ports.

-- 
Bill Moran
http://www.potentialtech.com
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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Russell Jackson
Russell Jackson wrote:
> Damn it. I use this software, and I even feel somewhat responsible for 
> perhaps possibly
> Tuomo here after I reported a crash under FreeBSD 7 on the ion list that 
> wound up having
> something to do with the mod_xinerama extension -- something that I haven't 
> had time to
> further look into.
> 

s/perhaps possibly/possibly luring/

-- 
Russell A. Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Network Analyst
California State University, Bakersfield

It is easier to get forgiveness than permission.


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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Stefan Sperling
On Wed, Dec 12, 2007 at 10:39:04AM -0800, Russell Jackson wrote:
> I really don't see why the extreme action of removing it from ports was 
> necessary. :sigh:

An alternative is to simply keep the last released version
that had a sane license.

AFAIK OpenBSD did that, see:

http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-ports&m=119522869306969&w=2
http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-ports&m=119523415116636&w=2

-- 
stefan
http://stsp.name PGP Key: 0xF59D25F0


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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Christian Walther
Hi there,

On 12/12/2007, Bill Moran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In response to Tuomo Valkonen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> > On 2007-12-12, Mark Linimon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > No, the release packages were already built.  You see, part of
> > > the problem of software Quality Assurance is that it takes some
> >
> > Distro Quality Assurance... ROTFLMAO.
>
> If we're taking a vote, I vote for the following:
>
> a) We ban Tuomo from our lists.
> b) We remove all his software from the ports and refuse to accept
>any more by him.
>
> The guy is obviously just around to start flame wars.
>

Up to now I was a happy user of ion3. So it makes me sad to see that
ion3 is gone. I can understand why the author is frustated - sometimes
behaviour of certain users doesn't make life easy. On the other hand
these users are just the minority, while the bigger group is able of
doing RTFM - including manuals and mailing archives. So there's even a
third group of people that do all this, and wait for the port to be
updated within a couple of days. Which up to now did work pretty well.
Thanks, Mark!
And by the way: It's not only a "FOSS problem", it doesn't matter how
one distributes code in source or binary form. It's a general problem
that can't be dealt with by changing some license.
That being said I can understand why the port maintainer decided to
remove the port - and I second his decission. Let me put it this way:
ion3 is great.
FreeBSD is great.
The ports system is great.
Building software from scratch sucks.

This is why I'll remove ion3 from all my machines (including some
Solaris boxes at work, but I don't bother with maintaining several
configurations that are supposed to do the same).
There are alternatives, after all.

Thanks Mark for maintaining the port.
And thanks Tuomo for enlightening the world with a new method of
interacting with GUIs. I really apreciate your opinion on GUI design
and window management, and I even agree with some of your opinions
regarding FOSS.

Bye
Christian
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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Russell Jackson
Mark Linimon wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 12, 2007 at 08:25:17AM +, Tuomo Valkonen wrote:
>> On 2007-12-12, Mark Linimon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>  ===>   NOTICE:
>> And this would also stop binary package from being generated
>> for the releases?
> 
> No, the release packages were already built.  You see, part of
> the problem of software Quality Assurance is that it takes some
> period of time to get final packages made and tested -- a time
> that no one can guarantee will necessarily be less than 28 days.
>>From the discussion I followed on the pkgsrc mailing list, you
> obviously either don't understand, or don't care, about this
> asepct of trying to produce the best working packages for the
> users of a particular OS.
> 
> But, I tell you what, as a special favor to you, I'll personally
> rip ion-3 out of the already-prepared package sets, check to make
> sure that the port is removed from the Ports Collection, and promulgate
> a new policy that NO software from you will in the future be accepted
> into the Ports Collection.  Thus, your licenses will be honored, and
> as an inevitable result, your software will descend even further into
> complete irrelevance.
> 
> Will that be acceptable, or is there something else that you would
> like from me this fine evening?
> 

Damn it. I use this software, and I even feel somewhat responsible for perhaps 
possibly
Tuomo here after I reported a crash under FreeBSD 7 on the ion list that wound 
up having
something to do with the mod_xinerama extension -- something that I haven't had 
time to
further look into.

Tuomo,

I wasn't running the version in ports CVS. I was running a modified local port 
that did
pull the latest ion sources. I also had to explicitly enable mod_xinerama with 
a make
define; so, it isn't part of the the binary package or a default port install.

I really don't see why the extreme action of removing it from ports was 
necessary. :sigh:

-- 
Russell A. Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Network Analyst
California State University, Bakersfield

It is easier to get forgiveness than permission.


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Re: xmule port

2007-12-12 Thread Mike Bowie

Gonzalo Martinez - Sanjuan Sanchez wrote:

Hi!

I have noticed that xMule has been removed from our ports tree.
Could someone say me why? I uses xmule and worked for me, but now i cant 
install it from ports.


Thank you.

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http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/ports/net-p2p/xmule/Attic/

Suggests that it's no longer in active development.

HTH,

Mike.
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xmule port

2007-12-12 Thread Gonzalo Martinez - Sanjuan Sanchez

Hi!

I have noticed that xMule has been removed from our ports tree.
Could someone say me why? I uses xmule and worked for me, but now i  
cant install it from ports.


Thank you.

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Re: results of ports re-engineering survey

2007-12-12 Thread Phillip N.
Im not really reading this threads.. 

But.. has this something to do with this?
http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-ports/2007-April/039802.html

:P
-- 
Phillip N. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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Re: results of ports re-engineering survey

2007-12-12 Thread Paul Schmehl
--On Wednesday, December 12, 2007 04:38:39 -0500 "Aryeh M. Friedman" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


..while I still want to gather more data to pin down the exact 

requirements

Don't you get it?  You're not GATHERING DATA.  You're eliciting responses 
from a TINY percentage of the people who use FreeBSD and ports and 
*extrapolating* from that tiny sample that 1) something is wrong with ports 
and 2) something actually needs to be done about it.


You haven't even BEGUN to gather data.  Yet you're already moving on to 
your "second phase"!


Furthermore, you take it upon yourself to insult the very people who 
actually *do* write the code and make this thing work while polluting this 
list (and several others as well) with stuff that *very few* (very few is 
defined as less than 1% of the readership which represents perhaps 1% of 
the total users of FreeBSD) people care about.


And you wonder why others' patience grows short?  Have you even noticed 
that the sharpest criticism of your "ideas" has all come from people with 
"@freebsd.org" in their email address?  Do you know what it takes to get 
one of those?


Please, please, spare us all the pain.  Go write some code.  Submit a PR. 
Then argue the validity of your code on the developer's list.


You're already in my killfile.  I'm about to put you in /dev/null.

--
Paul Schmehl ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Senior Information Security Analyst
The University of Texas at Dallas
http://www.utdallas.edu/ir/security/

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Re: FreeBSD Port: ossp-uuid-1.6.0

2007-12-12 Thread Vasil Dimov
On Thu, Dec 06, 2007 at 16:21:10 -0700, Bradford Castalia wrote:
> The current distribution package does not include the C++ API support.
> This is important for those of us depending on this API for support of
> applications that we are building and distributing.
> 
> When building this package please include the --with-cxx configure
> option so the resulting package will be complete.

Done.

-- 
Vasil Dimov
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Software Developer @ Oracle/Innobase Oy
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Committer @ FreeBSD.org
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Home @ Sofia, Bulgaria


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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Bill Moran
In response to Tuomo Valkonen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> On 2007-12-12, Mark Linimon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > No, the release packages were already built.  You see, part of
> > the problem of software Quality Assurance is that it takes some
> 
> Distro Quality Assurance... ROTFLMAO.

If we're taking a vote, I vote for the following:

a) We ban Tuomo from our lists.
b) We remove all his software from the ports and refuse to accept
   any more by him.

The guy is obviously just around to start flame wars.

-- 
Bill Moran
http://www.potentialtech.com
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Re: results of ports re-engineering survey

2007-12-12 Thread Andrew Pantyukhin
On Wed, Dec 12, 2007 at 04:38:39AM -0500, Aryeh M. Friedman wrote:
> I have used FreeBSD since '95 and except for jerks like you
> have really enjoyed it.

Are you quite sure it would be there to enjoy if not for jerks
like us? :)
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Re: scope of the port re-engineering project

2007-12-12 Thread Stephen Montgomery-Smith

Aryeh M. Friedman wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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Disclaimer:

This does not commit me, anyone else and/or FreeBSD to an course
of action nor does it imply such a commitment.

Assuming that the following is true:

1. There is a "proven" need to re-engineer the ports system as
demostrated by posts to -ports@ and the results of the survey on
re-engineering the ports system

2. Any system will correct your own personal "worst aspect" of the
ports system but will not do so at the expense of breaking any high
level functionality

Please answer the following questions:

1. Using the items listed in the next section please select the best
scope of the project assuming that 100% backwards compatibility with
the current ports system is maintained?

2. Using the items listed in the next section please select the best
scope of the project assuming that 100% backwards compatibility with
the current ports system is *NOT* maintained?

Possible project scopes:

a. Refactor the current system only
b. Redesign and recoding of the current system
c. Attempt to unify all methods of FreeBSD software installation into
a single system
d. Same as c but for all BSD like OS's


I'm not sure what the words "refactor" and "recode" mean here.

If I had lots of time on my hands, I think I would redo ports _without_ 
using "make" as its primary scripting tool.  Mind you, I'm not sure what 
I would use in its place - perhaps its own scripting tool written from 
scratch?


The difficulty with using "make" is that it isn't linear.  For example 
(and this was my bugbear), to figure out "make -V PKGNAME" the program 
has to read and process every single line of the makefile, including all 
of its ".includes".  And while perhaps this issue is a bit frivolous, 
nevertheless I bet that this is one of the reasons why people creating 
ports make mistakes setting up the dependencies.


Finally, I really do like the difference between ports and packages. 
Please keep both of the "build from source" and "install binaries" 
capabilities.


If you really do all the heavy lifting, it is something I will admire. 
Not least because you might do all this work and find people are too 
conservative to use it.


Stephen
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FreeBSD Port: enlightenment-20070223_1,1

2007-12-12 Thread Lance Ward
Hi,
I see from the FreeBSD ports page that you are the maintainer of the
Enlightenment package and I was just wondering if there were any plans for
an update.


Thank you,

Lance
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Re: results of ports re-engineering survey

2007-12-12 Thread Ade Lovett


On Dec 12, 2007, at 01:38 , Aryeh M. Friedman wrote:

First of all excuse my language but I have about had it with certain
people...


Presumably that would be me.


where the *HELL* do you get the idea that I am attempting to
get other people to do the heavy lifting or have you not learned a
single f***'ing thing from the last 30 years of software engineering
(i.e. involve the user from the very beginning)..


And you've involved, at best, 1% of the user base.  More likely  
0.01%.  Do we need to talk statistics again?



I said right in the f***'ing disclaimer that this is not an attempt  
to get permission from

anyone to do anything and/or any type of project plan as of yet it is
*ONLY* an attempt to define the problem so that a good (instead of one
I "think" is good) solution can be designed


I have yet to see any coherent definition that a problem even exists.   
That's not to say the current situation is perfect, it certainly  
isn't.  Those of "us" that have dealt with the ports tree for any  
length of time are well aware of its shortcomings.  We're also well  
aware that making anything but baby-step changes along a larger path  
is destined to failure.


Now, if y'all have concrete and plausible solutions for actual  
problems, we're all ears.  But in the meantime, it's just another re- 
run of "this sucks, it can be done better", without any concrete  
*proof* of the latter.


We *know* it can be done better.  We *know* the scaling limits of the  
current system, and most of us are completely amazed it even still  
works.


If y'all want to make a difference, concepts and ideas we have plenty  
of.  Code talks.


-aDe

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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Mark Linimon
On Wed, Dec 12, 2007 at 10:36:23AM +, Tuomo Valkonen wrote:
> Big and powerful distros can [piss me off], easily.

Ah, that should let FreeBSD off the hook, then.

mcl
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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Alex Dupre

Tuomo Valkonen ha scritto:
No, but I've considered simply having no license. No, not public 
domain, but "license-free" as djb distributes his stuff.


FYI, djb switched to public domain a few weeks ago :-)

--
Alex Dupre
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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Tuomo Valkonen
On 2007-12-12, Mark Linimon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 12, 2007 at 12:08:46PM +0200, Tuomo Valkonen wrote:
>> "Do what the fuck you want as long as you don't piss me off."
>
> I personally consider this to be the null set.  No one but you
> seems to be able to figure out what this is.  

If I don't even know that you're even using my software, you can't 
individually piss me off. Big and powerful distros can, easily.

-- 
Tuomo

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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Mark Linimon
On Wed, Dec 12, 2007 at 12:08:46PM +0200, Tuomo Valkonen wrote:
> "Do what the fuck you want as long as you don't piss me off."

I personally consider this to be the null set.  No one but you
seems to be able to figure out what this is.  It certainly doesn't
seem to consist of "do whatever you want with this (theoretcially)
GPLed software, but don't contact me" -- which, after all, would in
and of itself be a reasonable position.  (IMHO)

Look, dude: we deleted your software -- all of it -- and two hours
later you're still trying to find something to throw a fit about.

It's gone, over, done, flushed, dead, buried, down the Sewey Hole,
out with the used kitty litter, sent to /dev/null, pushing up the
daisies, dwelling with Elvis on his UFO, gone Across The Ocean with
Bilbo, on Amelia Earhart's last flight, in Judge Crater's suitcase,
in Jimmy Hoffa's day-planner, gone to be with St. Francis, and singing
in the Choir Invisible.  The intersection of "ion-3" and "FreeBSD" is
now congruent to the Vacuum Of Deep Space.

Except with less free hydrogen atoms.

So, please go away now.  I am out of similes.

mcl
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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Tuomo Valkonen
On 2007-12-12, Garrett Cooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   I'm sorry but I really beg to differ with you. Vista sucks it long  
> and sucks it hard... 

There are some improvements in Vista UI-wise (within the suffocating
confines of WIMPshit). But unfortunately it has also falling victim
to the industry-wide trend of anti-aliasing fascism. XP was the last
OS with good-looking fonts: in Vista you can't disable them completely
(at least not easily), fontconfit/Xft are well-known to be AA/XML-fascist,
it being practically impossible to configure to get decent fonts, 
especially if you don't have root access. OS X also AFAIK needs special
hacky extensions to disable blurring and still afaik doesn't support 
hinting, so the fonts rasterise poorly.


>   There's a reason why I recommend Macs to new customers :).

Macs are too much like Gnome. Between Mac/Gnome and Windows/KDE,
I'll take the latter.

-- 
Tuomo

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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Tuomo Valkonen
On 2007-12-12 01:55 -0800, Jeremy Chadwick wrote:
> Have you considered the WTFPL alternative?  http://sam.zoy.org/wtfpl/

No, but I've considered simply having no license. No, not public 
domain, but "license-free" as djb distributes his stuff. Aka.
the "Piratic License": "Do what the fuck you want as long as you
don't piss me off."

-- 
Tuomo
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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Garrett Cooper

On Dec 12, 2007, at 12:44 AM, Tuomo Valkonen wrote:


On 2007-12-12, Mark Linimon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

No, the release packages were already built.  You see, part of
the problem of software Quality Assurance is that it takes some


Distro Quality Assurance... ROTFLMAO.

I have fixed numerous bugs since 20070927 was released. What have
you done? I bet there has been _zero_ "quality assurance" done by
you (Frisbee) wrt. Ion3. No, you just throw it in, freeze it, and
call that "quality assurance", and then expect the authors to deal
with the users using the buggy releases that you distribute, and
that the authors themselves have fixed ages ago in their real
quality assurance -- the RC stage. The distros don't even bother
checking whether the software is in "development snapshot" stage
-- the still distribute megafrozen snapshots without prominently
mentioning this.

That's distro "quality assurance" for you.


your software will descend even further into complete irrelevance.


That's quite appropriate, since FOSS has become completely irrelevant
to me. Windows is simply the better OS nowadays.

--  
Tuomo



	I'm sorry but I really beg to differ with you. Vista sucks it long  
and sucks it hard... I install/personalize that OS on many PCs for  
Geek Squad, and I tell you it's really lame...
	The fact that one needs to install virus / spyware protection on any  
OS.. it's really, really sad. Microsoft is improving their  
development / use model, but it still ain't there (poetically). Some  
devs (in a different respect) are being egocentric and are making  
things shiny instead of usable.

There's a reason why I recommend Macs to new customers :).
-Garrett
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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Jeremy Chadwick
On Wed, Dec 12, 2007 at 09:45:39AM +, Tuomo Valkonen wrote:
> The present variant of the terms of license are:

Have you considered the WTFPL alternative?  http://sam.zoy.org/wtfpl/

-- 
| Jeremy Chadwickjdc at parodius.com |
| Parodius Networking   http://www.parodius.com/ |
| UNIX Systems Administrator  Mountain View, CA, USA |
| Making life hard for others since 1977.  PGP: 4BD6C0CB |

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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Tuomo Valkonen
On 2007-12-12, Aryeh M. Friedman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Taking the project closed source and/or in some other way denying open
> access to the code is not your only option to protect your legit
> rights as a developer.   

I'm not denying access to the code (not yet anyway; I'll probably
move to license-free closed-source -- for windows -- in future 
projects). I just want distros to behave a bit better: to call 
things by their real names, and mark obsolete versions as obsolete.
The present variant of the terms of license are:

---

Copyright (c) Tuomo Valkonen 1999-2007.

Unless otherwise indicated in components taken from elsewhere, this software
is licensed under the GNU Lesser General Public License, version 2.1 ("LGPL",
reproduced below), extended and modified with the following terms:

  If the name Ion(tm) or other names that can be associated with the Ion
  project are used to distribute this software, then:

- A version that does not significantly differ from one of the
  copyright holder's releases, must be provided by default.

- Versions not based on the copyright holder's latest release (on 
  the corresponding "branch", such as Ion3(tm)), must within 28 days
  of this release, be prominently marked as (potentially) obsolete
  and unsupported.

- Significantly altered versions may be provided only if the user
  explicitly requests for those modifications to be applied, and 
  is prominently notified that the software is no longer considered 
  the standard version, and is not supported by the copyright holder.
  The version string displayed by the program must describe these
  modifications and the "support void" status.

  Versions for which the above conditions are not satisfied, must be
  renamed so that they can not be associated with the Ion project, their
  executables must be given names that do not conflict with the copyright
  holder's version, and neither the copyright holder nor the Ion project
  may be referred to for support.

  In the text of sections 0-2, 4-12, and 14-16 of the LGPL, "this License" 
  is to be understood to refer to the LGPL extended with these terms and,
  where applicable, possible similar terms related to the names of other
  works forming a whole. Sections 3 and 13 of the LGPL are void. Where
  contradictory, these additional terms are primary to the LGPL.

End of terms.

---

So, these terms only affect distros, not users. You're also free to use
the code; you just have to pay attention to how you call it when you 
distribute it. But even modified versions can be distributed as "Ion" 
provided that the user explicitly requests for those modifications 
(typically in source-based package systems).

-- 
Tuomo

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Re: results of ports re-engineering survey

2007-12-12 Thread Aryeh M. Friedman
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Ade Lovett wrote:
> [admin note:  cut down on ridiculous crossposting]
>
> On Dec 11, 2007, at 21:37 , Aryeh M. Friedman wrote:
>> Number of responses: roughly 30
>
> I just wanted to pick up on this particular number.
>
> Your survey went to (at least) freebsd-ports, freebsd-current,
> freebsd-stable, and freebsd-questions.
>
> Judging by the original cc's on this message, it would appear that
> freebsd-chat and freebsd-hackers were also somehow involved, but
> not being subscribed to those lists, I wouldn't know.

The orginal survey was posted to all the cc'ed groups and while I
didn't track it the responses seemed to be evenly spread across all of
them.
>
> Now, would you care to guess at the number of subscribers on those
> lists?  Hint, total number is in the thousands.
>
> Let's, for the sake of argument, call it 3,000.  (It is, of course,
>  much higher)
>
> But, given this finger-in-the-air readership number, by your own
> admission, you have hit exactly 1% of a self-selected group (by
> virtue of being subscribed to the lists in question).  Let's not
> even mention the bazillions (technical term) of FreeBSD consumers
> that don't subscribe to any list.
>
> And from this, you extrapolate new concepts which conveniently
> involve others doing the heavy lifting.

First of all excuse my language but I have about had it with certain
people... where the *HELL* do you get the idea that I am attempting to
get other people to do the heavy lifting or have you not learned a
single f***'ing thing from the last 30 years of software engineering
(i.e. involve the user from the very beginning)... I said right in the
f***'ing disclaimer that this is not an attempt to get permission from
anyone to do anything and/or any type of project plan as of yet it is
*ONLY* an attempt to define the problem so that a good (instead of one
I "think" is good) solution can be designed and no to what ever
fantasy land you live in I am not asking anyone to do anything I am
not able and willing to do (I am going to send you a private reply
after this to show why for my own personal well being this is a very
bad idea)
>
> I'm done being nice with you.
>
> Get a grip.  Show some code.  Heck, show some *prototypes* of code.
>  But don't hide behind "I don't want my views to color things" when
>  it is patently obvious to anyone at or above the sentient level of
> a single celled organism that you really have absolutely no idea
> what you're talking about.

I only said that during the survey while I still want to gather
more data to pin down the exact requirements the general outline of
the solutions seems to be shaping up to be:

* 100% backwards compatibility
* Avoid the issues raised in Miller97 (see previous posts for URL)
* Allow for mult-layered dependancies (i.e. base dependancies on
port name only not on version number *BUT* allow specific versions to
be listed as depends)
* Depending on the results of the scope survey extend this to all
*BSD's if possible to make it so if anyone ports something then
everyone gets it also
* A few other minor tweaks that really aren't large enough for a
general discussion of the issue

Now a question for you if the goal is truly improve the system not
what I "think" it means to improve it how the hell am I supposed to do
this with out some information gathering.
>
> The cast-off line at this point would be to point you in the
> direction of .  Only, in this case, I wouldn't
>  wish that on my penguin-orientated friends.

Hint: I have used linux for perhaps a total of a week and hated every
minute of it I would rather use NT, but I have used FreeBSD since '95
and except for jerks like you have really enjoyed it.
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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Tuomo Valkonen
On 2007-12-12 03:04 -0600, Mark Linimon wrote:
> (Free hint: they already have a windows manager built-in.  Get it?)

That's the only thing FOSS operating systems have going for 
them... and no thanks to FOSS herd. I bet that if the desktop 
herd were to redesign X, they'd take away the possibility for
a separate WM. They are making life for alternative WMs harder
all the time, after all.

-- 
Tuomo
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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Aryeh M. Friedman
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First of all this is not a criticism of you but of the FreeBSD and
FOSS community

Tuomo Valkonen wrote:
> On 2007-12-12, Gergely CZUCZY <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I don't use Ion3, and I never intend to, but to be honest, this
>> licence of yours really seems to be very unreasonable. It's just
>> silly, nothing more.
>
> I could make it GPLv3 and nagware at the same time. Sistros would
> still have modify and consequently rename it to distribute something
> worth using.

Taking the project closed source and/or in some other way denying open
access to the code is not your only option to protect your legit
rights as a developer.   There is a middle ground that my company and
several other MicroISV's have developed over the last few years with
one of them doing over a million in sales using the model.The
basic idea is find an appropriate mix of restrictions on tech free
loaders and the legitimate right of users to not be completely locked
into your internal development model.  Specifically you are allowed to
charge for copies of your work, even modified ones, as long you pass
certain rewards onto to contributors for more info see the following
blogs I wrote on the subject (and they contain links to the rest of
the community):

http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/FOSS.php
http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/SIW_Background.php
http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/RCS.php



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Re: results of ports re-engineering survey

2007-12-12 Thread Ade Lovett

[admin note:  cut down on ridiculous crossposting]

On Dec 11, 2007, at 21:37 , Aryeh M. Friedman wrote:

Number of responses: roughly 30


I just wanted to pick up on this particular number.

Your survey went to (at least) freebsd-ports, freebsd-current, freebsd- 
stable, and freebsd-questions.


Judging by the original cc's on this message, it would appear that  
freebsd-chat and freebsd-hackers were also somehow involved, but not  
being subscribed to those lists, I wouldn't know.


Now, would you care to guess at the number of subscribers on those  
lists?  Hint, total number is in the thousands.


Let's, for the sake of argument, call it 3,000.  (It is, of course,  
much higher)


But, given this finger-in-the-air readership number, by your own  
admission, you have hit exactly 1% of a self-selected group (by virtue  
of being subscribed to the lists in question).  Let's not even mention  
the bazillions (technical term) of FreeBSD consumers that don't  
subscribe to any list.


And from this, you extrapolate new concepts which conveniently involve  
others doing the heavy lifting.


I'm done being nice with you.

Get a grip.  Show some code.  Heck, show some *prototypes* of code.   
But don't hide behind "I don't want my views to color things" when it  
is patently obvious to anyone at or above the sentient level of a  
single celled organism that you really have absolutely no idea what  
you're talking about.


The cast-off line at this point would be to point you in the direction  
of .  Only, in this case, I wouldn't wish that on  
my penguin-orientated friends.


-aDe

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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Mark Linimon
On Wed, Dec 12, 2007 at 08:47:03AM +, Tuomo Valkonen wrote:
> I could make it GPLv3 and nagware at the same time.

Yes, and you could put on makeup, shave your armpits, put on a ballerina's
dress, and declare yourself Queen of Saturn And All Its Moons for all it
matters to FreeBSD now.

We can make enough of our own drama here, thanks.  Please take your own,
and see what a wonderful reception it will get in the Windows world.
(Free hint: they already have a windows manager built-in.  Get it?)

mcl
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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Ade Lovett


On Dec 12, 2007, at 00:47 , Tuomo Valkonen wrote:

I could make it GPLv3 and nagware at the same time. Sistros would
still have modify and consequently rename it to distribute something
worth using.


Let me use simple words here.

ion-3.  is.  gone.  nuked.  squished.  byebye.

Now, I could spend a few sentences rambling on about how your license  
sucks, your code sucks and, quite frankly, your attitude to OSS sucks.


But this is a public mailing list, with children watching.

So I won't.

Y'all have a Happy Christmas now, y'hear?

-aDe

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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Tuomo Valkonen
On 2007-12-12, Gergely CZUCZY <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't use Ion3, and I never intend to, but to be honest, this
> licence of yours really seems to be very unreasonable. It's just
> silly, nothing more.

I could make it GPLv3 and nagware at the same time. Sistros would
still have modify and consequently rename it to distribute something
worth using.

-- 
Tuomo

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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Tuomo Valkonen
On 2007-12-12, Mark Linimon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> No, the release packages were already built.  You see, part of
> the problem of software Quality Assurance is that it takes some

Distro Quality Assurance... ROTFLMAO.

I have fixed numerous bugs since 20070927 was released. What have
you done? I bet there has been _zero_ "quality assurance" done by
you (Frisbee) wrt. Ion3. No, you just throw it in, freeze it, and
call that "quality assurance", and then expect the authors to deal
with the users using the buggy releases that you distribute, and
that the authors themselves have fixed ages ago in their real
quality assurance -- the RC stage. The distros don't even bother
checking whether the software is in "development snapshot" stage
-- the still distribute megafrozen snapshots without prominently
mentioning this.

That's distro "quality assurance" for you.

> your software will descend even further into complete irrelevance.

That's quite appropriate, since FOSS has become completely irrelevant
to me. Windows is simply the better OS nowadays.

-- 
Tuomo

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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Gergely CZUCZY
On Wed, Dec 12, 2007 at 08:34:00AM +, Tuomo Valkonen wrote:
> On 2007-12-12, Edwin Groothuis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > You don't say "Not more than 28 days", you suggest 28 days as a
> > reasonable delay for you.
> 
> Frisbee/the package maintainer not bothering to communicating with
> me how long the actual delay might be, and would the package end
> up in a megafrozen state in the new releases, does not sound like
> a reasonable delay. But no, in the Distro Code of Conduct, it is
> forbidden to communicate with upstream, to reach an agreement etc.
> Distros want to do whatever they will, including fucking the author
> in the arse -- that's what the "freedom" in free software is about.
> It's not freedom for the author: it's freedom/power for the RIAA 
> and MPAA and Sony and BMG and Warner of FOSS -- the distros. 
> 
> > To quote a friend:
> >
> > cvs rm -rf ; cvs commit -m "Your license sucks.  Your
> > code sucks.  You suck.  Happy Christmas."
> >
> > I hope that is not what you were after...
> 
> Whatever it takes for distros to either start behaving better
> (communicating with and taking consideration of authors), or
> simply perishing.
I don't use Ion3, and I never intend to, but to be honest, this
licence of yours really seems to be very unreasonable. It's just
silly, nothing more.

Sincerely,

Gergely Czuczy
mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

-- 
Weenies test. Geniuses solve problems that arise.


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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Mark Linimon
Folks, don't reply any further to this thread.  The packages are
in the process of being removed, no further software from this
author will be accepted, no more drama will be had.  Nothing to
see here, move along.

mcl
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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Mark Linimon
On Wed, Dec 12, 2007 at 08:25:17AM +, Tuomo Valkonen wrote:
> On 2007-12-12, Mark Linimon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >  ===>   NOTICE:
> 
> And this would also stop binary package from being generated
> for the releases?

No, the release packages were already built.  You see, part of
the problem of software Quality Assurance is that it takes some
period of time to get final packages made and tested -- a time
that no one can guarantee will necessarily be less than 28 days.
>From the discussion I followed on the pkgsrc mailing list, you
obviously either don't understand, or don't care, about this
asepct of trying to produce the best working packages for the
users of a particular OS.

But, I tell you what, as a special favor to you, I'll personally
rip ion-3 out of the already-prepared package sets, check to make
sure that the port is removed from the Ports Collection, and promulgate
a new policy that NO software from you will in the future be accepted
into the Ports Collection.  Thus, your licenses will be honored, and
as an inevitable result, your software will descend even further into
complete irrelevance.

Will that be acceptable, or is there something else that you would
like from me this fine evening?

mcl
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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Tuomo Valkonen
On 2007-12-12, Edwin Groothuis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You don't say "Not more than 28 days", you suggest 28 days as a
> reasonable delay for you.

Frisbee/the package maintainer not bothering to communicating with
me how long the actual delay might be, and would the package end
up in a megafrozen state in the new releases, does not sound like
a reasonable delay. But no, in the Distro Code of Conduct, it is
forbidden to communicate with upstream, to reach an agreement etc.
Distros want to do whatever they will, including fucking the author
in the arse -- that's what the "freedom" in free software is about.
It's not freedom for the author: it's freedom/power for the RIAA 
and MPAA and Sony and BMG and Warner of FOSS -- the distros. 

> To quote a friend:
>
> cvs rm -rf ; cvs commit -m "Your license sucks.  Your
> code sucks.  You suck.  Happy Christmas."
>
> I hope that is not what you were after...

Whatever it takes for distros to either start behaving better
(communicating with and taking consideration of authors), or
simply perishing.

-- 
Tuomo

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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Tuomo Valkonen
On 2007-12-12, Mark Linimon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  ===>   NOTICE:

And this would also stop binary package from being generated
for the releases?

> This is normally as fast as we pull out the rug from under existing
> users' feet.  

Umm.. how would it do that?

-- 
Tuomo

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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Mark Linimon
On Wed, Dec 12, 2007 at 07:48:03AM +, Tuomo Valkonen wrote:
> And this shows to a user trying to install it, how?

  ===>   NOTICE:

  This port is deprecated; you may wish to reconsider installing it:

  is more than 28 days old, which the author states violates his license.
  Do not contact author.

  It is scheduled to be removed on or after 2008-01-12.

This is normally as fast as we pull out the rug from under existing
users' feet.  If the above isn't satisfactory, I will immediately
remove it from the Ports Collection.

mcl
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Re: Ion3 license violation

2007-12-12 Thread Edwin Groothuis
On Wed, Dec 12, 2007 at 07:22:50AM +, Tuomo Valkonen wrote:
> Since the so-called package "maintainer" seems to have gone AWOL
> (as is typical):

Have a look at
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/ports/x11-wm/ion-3/Makefile.
There have been 8 updates of this piece of software in that time.

You state "the version distributed online may not significantly
differ from the original author's latest stable release (resp.
latest release on the branch) within a reasonable delay (normally
28 days)."

You don't say "Not more than 28 days", you suggest 28 days as a
reasonable delay for you.

Due to the ports freeze there have been no normal software updates
for about month in the FreeBSD ports tree. That is a normal delay
in the lifecycle of the FreeBSD software. Not everybody is agreeing
on it, but it is considered a normal delay.

To quote a friend:

cvs rm -rf ; cvs commit -m "Your license sucks.  Your
code sucks.  You suck.  Happy Christmas."

I hope that is not what you were after...

Edwin

-- 
Edwin Groothuis  |Personal website: http://www.mavetju.org
[EMAIL PROTECTED]|  Weblog: http://www.mavetju.org/weblog/
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